Ok I actually think that the edgar ban caused a slight net positive for zurgo in terms of meta positioning despite the nerf. PoP doesn't do much to karlov, and in a matchup with life gain eidolon can actually backfire on zurgo anyway. Plus we have that new dino to replace sulfuric. Fireblast ban is ouchy tho. Not denying that nerf hurts, but I actually think that in my local meta at least, there'd be more zurgos finishing top 8 than when edgar was legal.
I was pretty salty when I read the news yesterday, I admit. Rightfully so, I think. Who bans Fireblast in any kind of competitive format? Such a joke. That's pretty hard for me to get past.
That said, I guess the creature heavy versions (like mine) are going to come out a little easier than the burn heavy versions (like Yuji's). Maybe Zo-Zu comes back to the decklist now. Maybe I start playing fringe cards like Skullcrack & Flames of the Blood Hand. Maybe I can get Keldon Marauders, & Vexing Devil into the list finally (I love Devil as a fantastic post-combat play). Hell, I played Browbeat before...............
I was pretty salty when I read the news yesterday, I admit. Rightfully so, I think. Who bans Fireblast in any kind of competitive format? Such a joke. That's pretty hard for me to get past.
That said, I guess the creature heavy versions (like mine) are going to come out a little easier than the burn heavy versions (like Yuji's). Maybe Zo-Zu comes back to the decklist now. Maybe I start playing fringe cards like Skullcrack & Flames of the Blood Hand. Maybe I can get Keldon Marauders, & Vexing Devil into the list finally (I love Devil as a fantastic post-combat play). Hell, I played Browbeat before...............
Yeah if fireblast was banned, force of will should be too. Just sayin. Different sides, same coin.
funny you say that though coz my burn heavy list actually has a zo-zu. too good into titania. One would argue turn 3 is too late for that especially on the draw, but it punishes ramunap/crucible/fastbond shenanigans. As for skullcrack I do play it, but yeah with sulfuric gone, flames of the bloodhand is suddenly more viable again.
How viable are the deck post bans? whats lists are you playing?
replaced sulfuric with the new dinosaur with menace, replaced fireblast with sonic burst, replaced PoP with a random burn spell, eidolon with the new 1-drop pirate. It plays just the same. We're no worse against our good matchups, and no better against the bad ones. Again, yes on paper zurgo's worse, but by it's very nature, monoR has never been reliant on a few individual cards to win. These nerfs did nothing but piss zurgo players off IMO, which to me is the mark of a very poor banlist decision by the committee. This was I think meant to silence all the whiners who still struggle with zurgo in 2017. Seriously guys, adapt or die.
How viable are the deck post bans? whats lists are you playing?
replaced sulfuric with the new dinosaur with menace, replaced fireblast with sonic burst, replaced PoP with a random burn spell, eidolon with the new 1-drop pirate. It plays just the same. We're no worse against our good matchups, and no better against the bad ones. Again, yes on paper zurgo's worse, but by it's very nature, monoR has never been reliant on a few individual cards to win. These nerfs did nothing but piss zurgo players off IMO, which to me is the mark of a very poor banlist decision by the committee. This was I think meant to silence all the whiners who still struggle with zurgo in 2017. Seriously guys, adapt or die.
Looks like something I said before. In this game just like in life, everything evolves. You either adapt...or perish.
Ok, I tested a bit more with zurgo last night and I wanna share my takeaway and analysis.
Here's the thing.. he actually plays a bit more smoothly. Let's go over the bans 1 by 1:
1.) PoP is not as useful in mono colored decks. Titania is one of our worst matchups, and most of their nonbasics end up in the grave anyway. Another bad matchup where Price is not so useful is karlov. They can just fetch for basics all day without screwing themselves, and they have life gain outs. So losing PoP for another card that can function equally well across all matchups (AKA any generic burn spell) actually added consistency.
2.) If you replace [card sulfuric vortex[/card] for a rampaging ferocidon, the pros of a 3 power body with evasion, a decent passive and the identical can't gain life clause hurts as much as vortex. Here's where the difference lies actually. Vortex requires a bit more timing than one would think. If the titania matchup turns out into a straight up brawl, vortex helps them more than it helps us. Same situation with karlov if he somehow gets big enough to escape burn range (probability of this goes even higher the less burn the deck has) and starts hitting like a truck. Casting vortex with an 8/8 karlov in play hurts your clock as much as it hurts theirs. The difference is, you're the one who tapped 3 mana for it. With ferocidon on the other hand, you just cast it and let them deal with the 3/3 body however they please, with minimal detriment to your own life total in case the race doesn't turn out in your favor. There's much less risk.
3.) Eidolon of the great revel is the card most likely to backfire on us especially agianst titania. I apologize for bringing up titania every 2 sentences, but she and karlov are 2 of the most well-positioned meta decks today, and are coincidentally terrible matchups for zurgo. Anyway, when the midrange-y threats start coming out, there will come a point where eidolon will be dealing way more damage to us than to them. Same concept applies to karlov. Though their curve is lower than titania's, they can gain life. Point is, I wasn't so sad to see this go, as good as he is.
4.) Which leaves us with fireblast. Losing fireblast is an obvious nerf, but this is one card, in a deck that has no tutors and does not rely on a single card to win anyway.
Bottomline: Overall, zurgo as a whole was not nerfed, but rather a single aspect of his game was: burst. It's harder to win out of nowhere now via PoP for 14 damage against a 4 color deck, or by tapping out to all your burn and then dumping 2 lands for a fireblast. But losing access to 4 cards makes way for less burst-y but more consistent picks. Combined with the Edgar Markov ban, this announcement actually buffed MonoR's position in the meta.
Totally agree with your analysis. That said, i wonder if you have matchup balance chart on this deck? something like:
good matchups: leovold and prosh
bad matchups: karlov titania
neutral matchup: baral, doran
Totally agree with your analysis. That said, i wonder if you have matchup balance chart on this deck? something like:
good matchups: leovold and prosh
bad matchups: karlov titania
neutral matchup: baral, doran
Good: Any control with no lifegain outs (grixis, izzet, dimir, mono blue), animar, maelstrom wanderer
Bad: titania, karlov, atraxa, gitrog, Kalitas monoblack control
Neutral: Mirror match, MonoW aggro (we have additional avenues for offense in burn, but they have superior combat presence with first strike. Tie breaker comes down to how much life gain they have in the deck), partner decks
These matchups to me are variable, which means they can range from bad to good to neutral depending on how the deck is built.
Queen Marchesa control: If it's a superfriends control with a lot of mana rocks, zurgo's gonna have a fiesta. But if the deck plays with less rocks and more spot removal, mini-sweeps and lifegain (timely reinforcements, blessed alliance, etc), i would say the matchup is more balanced, though still slightly in zurgo's favor.
Ojutai: If authority of the consuls comes down early, GG. But outside of that, if no lifegain is prioritized, zurgo is at a heavy advantage.
Long story short: Outside of the inherently bad matchups mentioned, whether or not the matchup is good or not depends a LOT on how well prepared the deck is for monoR. Decks that are built totally ignoring the damage output of monoR will most likely be unable to take a best of 3, and are free wins regardless of how the matchup is on paper. Flip side, supposedly good matchups that find ways to compensate for red's damage output (playing blue elemental blast and hydroblast for example) can give us a hard time.
i retired my zurgo deck. its like 90% foil with original foil lavaman and foil fetches. i just wanna leace it as is and admire a pure burn deck for what it was.
i have moved on to playing a totally different deck. mono blue kopala merfolk tribal. with no combo decks, in theory, this deck should wreck. put a fast clock on the opponent and end games fast
Locally zurgos have not only been topping our last few tournaments, but 2 have actually won all the way. Dunno what the hell is goin on exactly, but the bans have done nothing to monoR's power level it seems.
New list incoming as I found a new place to play DC, albeit i can't always play because my work loves to schedule me random as all hell. Still playing Zurgo as you'd guess. Last event I took 1st with a 2-0-1 finish;
2-0 vs 5c Horde of Notions
2-0 vs Queen Marchesa
1-1-1 vs Gitrog Monster (we ran out of time before the store closed, but it does not feel "unwinnable" - I even beat a Zuran Orb g2!)
Since Zurgo has been banned in Duel Commander it looks like people who want to play this deck have gone back to playing a thirty life format such as Leviathan Commander or MTGO 1v1. I have been exclusively playing this deck in leviathan commander at my local shop since duel commander switched to 20 life and I was wondering what your thoughts are on a couple of cards.
First, what are your thoughts on Mox Amber in a 30 life format vs. a 20 life format. It seems good but I worry it's not proactive enough. I haven't picked one up yet for testing because I'm not sure it's good enough for what it is currently priced at.
The second card I want to address is Goblin Chainwhirler. I love the design and art of the card but I'm not sure if it's too weak for this format unlike how it's a powerhouse in standard. I'm currently testing it in place of Keldon Champion as it comes down a turn earlier, has first strike, does not have echo, and hits opponents' creatures and planeswalkers. The downside I forsee is that it doesn't do as much immediate damage as the Keldon Champion.
The last card I want to address is Ahn-Crop Crasher. I like that it has haste and a way to make opponents creatures not block but in a 30 life format like leviathan I feel like exert keeping it tapped for a turn is a huge downside.
Now looking ahead to Core Set 19 there are a few cards that might be good.
I think Lightning Mare has potential. It can't be countered and it can't be blocked by blue creatures so its solid against blue control, has 3 power on a 2 drop, and can pump itself. I don't like that it has only 1 toughness.
Viashino Pyromancer could be decent as it is a 2 power 2 drop that does at least 4 damage over the course of a game. I don't like that it has only 1 toughness, no haste and the etb effect can't hit creatures.
Volley Veteran could be good as a second Flametongue Kavu if you play enough goblins, which I think I do. I think the effect is good, I just don't know if I need more than one of this effect as it cost 4 mana.
I don't have much experience with 30 life, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.
I think Mox Amber will continue to be good in 30 life.
Goblin Chainwhirler's eternal power is very meta dependent. I think swapping out Keldon Champion for him could be a mistake, the cards serve very different purposes. If you feel Keldon Champion wasn't pulling enough weight then feel free to cut it.
Ahn-Crop Crasher is a pretty good three drop. The only reason I would consider cutting him is if my opponents were not playing many creatures.
I think, rather than playing to a thirty life format (eww), the best course of action is to swap to Kari Zev. This means we're going to want more one drops and the majority of two drops need to go (the floor is going to be very, very high to meet since Kari Zev is the go-to 2 drop in this scenario). To that end, I believe both the new Pyromancer and the Horse are good, though maybe the Horse isn't good enough under these requisites (the Viashino is though).
Mox is just fine (I play enough legendaries though).
Under this guise of "eschew two drops", we're going to want to overload on three's. This means, while I'm not particularly impressed by Chainwhirler, he should have a slot under this principle.
Why the question about Ahn-Crop? Good three drop is good. Can't imagine not playing that.
That said, I guess the creature heavy versions (like mine) are going to come out a little easier than the burn heavy versions (like Yuji's). Maybe Zo-Zu comes back to the decklist now. Maybe I start playing fringe cards like Skullcrack & Flames of the Blood Hand. Maybe I can get Keldon Marauders, & Vexing Devil into the list finally (I love Devil as a fantastic post-combat play). Hell, I played Browbeat before...............
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Yeah if fireblast was banned, force of will should be too. Just sayin. Different sides, same coin.
funny you say that though coz my burn heavy list actually has a zo-zu. too good into titania. One would argue turn 3 is too late for that especially on the draw, but it punishes ramunap/crucible/fastbond shenanigans. As for skullcrack I do play it, but yeah with sulfuric gone, flames of the bloodhand is suddenly more viable again.
Im just rambling.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
replaced sulfuric with the new dinosaur with menace, replaced fireblast with sonic burst, replaced PoP with a random burn spell, eidolon with the new 1-drop pirate. It plays just the same. We're no worse against our good matchups, and no better against the bad ones. Again, yes on paper zurgo's worse, but by it's very nature, monoR has never been reliant on a few individual cards to win. These nerfs did nothing but piss zurgo players off IMO, which to me is the mark of a very poor banlist decision by the committee. This was I think meant to silence all the whiners who still struggle with zurgo in 2017. Seriously guys, adapt or die.
Looks like something I said before. In this game just like in life, everything evolves. You either adapt...or perish.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
when they ban some red pieces, everybody loses their mind"
Here's the thing.. he actually plays a bit more smoothly. Let's go over the bans 1 by 1:
1.) PoP is not as useful in mono colored decks. Titania is one of our worst matchups, and most of their nonbasics end up in the grave anyway. Another bad matchup where Price is not so useful is karlov. They can just fetch for basics all day without screwing themselves, and they have life gain outs. So losing PoP for another card that can function equally well across all matchups (AKA any generic burn spell) actually added consistency.
2.) If you replace [card sulfuric vortex[/card] for a rampaging ferocidon, the pros of a 3 power body with evasion, a decent passive and the identical can't gain life clause hurts as much as vortex. Here's where the difference lies actually. Vortex requires a bit more timing than one would think. If the titania matchup turns out into a straight up brawl, vortex helps them more than it helps us. Same situation with karlov if he somehow gets big enough to escape burn range (probability of this goes even higher the less burn the deck has) and starts hitting like a truck. Casting vortex with an 8/8 karlov in play hurts your clock as much as it hurts theirs. The difference is, you're the one who tapped 3 mana for it. With ferocidon on the other hand, you just cast it and let them deal with the 3/3 body however they please, with minimal detriment to your own life total in case the race doesn't turn out in your favor. There's much less risk.
3.) Eidolon of the great revel is the card most likely to backfire on us especially agianst titania. I apologize for bringing up titania every 2 sentences, but she and karlov are 2 of the most well-positioned meta decks today, and are coincidentally terrible matchups for zurgo. Anyway, when the midrange-y threats start coming out, there will come a point where eidolon will be dealing way more damage to us than to them. Same concept applies to karlov. Though their curve is lower than titania's, they can gain life. Point is, I wasn't so sad to see this go, as good as he is.
4.) Which leaves us with fireblast. Losing fireblast is an obvious nerf, but this is one card, in a deck that has no tutors and does not rely on a single card to win anyway.
Bottomline: Overall, zurgo as a whole was not nerfed, but rather a single aspect of his game was: burst. It's harder to win out of nowhere now via PoP for 14 damage against a 4 color deck, or by tapping out to all your burn and then dumping 2 lands for a fireblast. But losing access to 4 cards makes way for less burst-y but more consistent picks. Combined with the Edgar Markov ban, this announcement actually buffed MonoR's position in the meta.
good matchups: leovold and prosh
bad matchups: karlov titania
neutral matchup: baral, doran
Good: Any control with no lifegain outs (grixis, izzet, dimir, mono blue), animar, maelstrom wanderer
Bad: titania, karlov, atraxa, gitrog, Kalitas monoblack control
Neutral: Mirror match, MonoW aggro (we have additional avenues for offense in burn, but they have superior combat presence with first strike. Tie breaker comes down to how much life gain they have in the deck), partner decks
These matchups to me are variable, which means they can range from bad to good to neutral depending on how the deck is built.
Queen Marchesa control: If it's a superfriends control with a lot of mana rocks, zurgo's gonna have a fiesta. But if the deck plays with less rocks and more spot removal, mini-sweeps and lifegain (timely reinforcements, blessed alliance, etc), i would say the matchup is more balanced, though still slightly in zurgo's favor.
Ojutai: If authority of the consuls comes down early, GG. But outside of that, if no lifegain is prioritized, zurgo is at a heavy advantage.
Long story short: Outside of the inherently bad matchups mentioned, whether or not the matchup is good or not depends a LOT on how well prepared the deck is for monoR. Decks that are built totally ignoring the damage output of monoR will most likely be unable to take a best of 3, and are free wins regardless of how the matchup is on paper. Flip side, supposedly good matchups that find ways to compensate for red's damage output (playing blue elemental blast and hydroblast for example) can give us a hard time.
i have moved on to playing a totally different deck. mono blue kopala merfolk tribal. with no combo decks, in theory, this deck should wreck. put a fast clock on the opponent and end games fast
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
2-0 vs 5c Horde of Notions
2-0 vs Queen Marchesa
1-1-1 vs Gitrog Monster (we ran out of time before the store closed, but it does not feel "unwinnable" - I even beat a Zuran Orb g2!)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zurgo-bellstriker-sligh/?cb=1524866617. Or you can follow along with me on Facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/THEmtg3drinks/posts/1837123519641190
That's the primary reason I got back to Zurgo, was that mox. It's not a good mox. But it's a great Zurgo tool.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
1 Zurgo Bellstriker
Turn Two Creatures (15)
2 Ash Zealot
2 Earthshaker Khenra
2 Ember Hauler
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
2 Goblin Wardriver
2 Hellspark Elemental
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Keldon Marauders
2 Lightning Mauler
2 Mardu Scout
2 Mudbrawler Cohort
2 Nest Robber
2 Speedway Fanatic
2 Stormblood Berserker
2 Valley Dasher
Turn Three Creatures (12)
3 Ahn-Crop Crasher
3 Ball Lightning
3 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Flamewake Phoenix
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Hell's Thunder
3 Inner-Flame Acolyte
3 Lathnu Hellion
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Minotaur Skullcleaver
3 Rampaging Ferocidon
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Dire Fleet Daredevil
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Goblin Heelcutter
4 Hellrider
4 Hero of Oxid Ridge
4 Territorial Hellkite
5 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
8 Bedlam Reveler
One Mana Burn (4)
1 Chain Lightning
1 Rift Bolt
1 Burst Lightning
1 Lightning Bolt
Two Mana Burn (8)
2 Arc Trail
2 Incinerate
2 Lightning Strike
2 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
2 Searing Spear
2 Skullcrack
Three Mana Burn (7)
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Molten Rain
3 Brimstone Volley
3 Hungry Flames
3 Pulse of the Forge
3 Staggershock
3 Urza's Rage
3 Howl of the Horde
4 Fiery Confluence
Best Removal (1)
0 Pyrokinesis
Equipment and Auras (3)
1 Bonesplitter
1 Skullclamp
2 Madcap Skills
Mana Rock (1)
0 Mox Amber
Utility Lands (5)
0 Barbarian Ring
0 Mishra's Factory
0 Mutavault
0 Ramunap Ruins
0 Wasteland
Mountains (31)
31 Mountain
Anyone can see from looking at the list that I'm a fan of the heavier creature builds. Some notable creatures that I'm not playing are Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Monastery Swiftspear, Soul-Scar Mage, Spark Elemental, Vexing Devil, Firebrand Archer, Harsh Mentor, Phyrexian Revoker, Smuggler's Copter, Young Pyromancer, Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh, Sin Prodder, Zo-Zu the Punisher, Keldon Champion, and Fleetwheel Cruiser.
Since I'm playing a lot of creatures, there is a lot of instants and sorceries that I skip on.
Some notable one drop spells I'm missing are Brute Force, Collateral Damage, Firebolt, Forked Bolt, Galvanic Blast, Landslide, Lava Spike, Pillar of Flame, Reckless Abandon, Reckless Charge, Seal of Fire, Tarfire, Shard Volley, Shock, Titan's Strength, and Wild Slash.
Some notable two drop spells I'm missing are Chain of Plasma, Fire Ambush, Flame Jet, Flame Rift, Fork, Incendiary Flow, Reverberate, Smash to Smithereens, Thunderbolt, and Volcanic Hammer.
Some notable three drop spells I'm missing are Acidic Soil, Browbeat, Char, Collective Defiance, Flame Javelin, Flames of the Blood Hand, Kari Zev's Expertise, Rhystic Lightning, and Wheel of Fortune.
Last from instants and sorceries are Stoke the Flames, Elemental Appeal, and Violent Eruption.
Finally, there are a few non creature permanents that I'm not playing. Notable ones are Blighted Gorge, Fetches, Teetering Peaks, Ankh of Mishra, Break Through the Line, Impact Tremors, Pyrostatic Pillar, Throne of the God-Pharaoh, Blood Moon, Grafted Wargear, Spellshock, Tangle wire, Manabarbs, and Koth of the Hammer.
There is probably some stuff that I missed, but I think I covered a lot.
Will always you
Congrats DC on creating your "green lives matter" format.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
I don't have an old list anymore, but there are a few on mtgtop8 from when DC was 30 life.
First, what are your thoughts on Mox Amber in a 30 life format vs. a 20 life format. It seems good but I worry it's not proactive enough. I haven't picked one up yet for testing because I'm not sure it's good enough for what it is currently priced at.
The second card I want to address is Goblin Chainwhirler. I love the design and art of the card but I'm not sure if it's too weak for this format unlike how it's a powerhouse in standard. I'm currently testing it in place of Keldon Champion as it comes down a turn earlier, has first strike, does not have echo, and hits opponents' creatures and planeswalkers. The downside I forsee is that it doesn't do as much immediate damage as the Keldon Champion.
The last card I want to address is Ahn-Crop Crasher. I like that it has haste and a way to make opponents creatures not block but in a 30 life format like leviathan I feel like exert keeping it tapped for a turn is a huge downside.
Now looking ahead to Core Set 19 there are a few cards that might be good.
I think Lightning Mare has potential. It can't be countered and it can't be blocked by blue creatures so its solid against blue control, has 3 power on a 2 drop, and can pump itself. I don't like that it has only 1 toughness.
Viashino Pyromancer could be decent as it is a 2 power 2 drop that does at least 4 damage over the course of a game. I don't like that it has only 1 toughness, no haste and the etb effect can't hit creatures.
Volley Veteran could be good as a second Flametongue Kavu if you play enough goblins, which I think I do. I think the effect is good, I just don't know if I need more than one of this effect as it cost 4 mana.
I think Mox Amber will continue to be good in 30 life.
Goblin Chainwhirler's eternal power is very meta dependent. I think swapping out Keldon Champion for him could be a mistake, the cards serve very different purposes. If you feel Keldon Champion wasn't pulling enough weight then feel free to cut it.
Ahn-Crop Crasher is a pretty good three drop. The only reason I would consider cutting him is if my opponents were not playing many creatures.
I think Viashino Pyromancer and Lightning Mare are good. I'm very skeptical about Volley Veteran.
Mox is just fine (I play enough legendaries though).
Under this guise of "eschew two drops", we're going to want to overload on three's. This means, while I'm not particularly impressed by Chainwhirler, he should have a slot under this principle.
Why the question about Ahn-Crop? Good three drop is good. Can't imagine not playing that.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.