Zavros and I were looking at Jeleva this afternoon and we were thinking of ways to make her playable. we both agree that her ability is profitable but we are not entirely sure what build would be the best for her.
I currently have the mana finished, which obviously isn't much, but i think it is enough to get started. I think it would be really cool if we as a community work on the deck together and see what we can come up with. it would be really cool to work on a list and then see it at St. Nazaire or one of the other large tournaments in France coming up.
our current thought is that we want to use mana rocks to attempt to get out Jeleva on turn 3. we then want to swing on turn 4 to gain advantage. we were both thinking that this deck is going to want to be a more tap out control deck. If we fill it with counters it will make jeleva weaker in theory. however, maybe just using a single spell or maybe two is enough to gain advantage. Using ruination, Boom (Boom/Bust) or upheaval to bounce lands seems like a route to victory. Yet, we kept coming to "how does the deck win"?
so here's what we have so far, ill update the list as we figure out what should go in the deck!
While i think hall of the bandit lord is a powerful land, i dont think we want to risk that much life loss. we are running only 39 lands and 46 mana sources and we want to make sure that each of these lands can be used every turn. i feel that often times we would end up dealing 6-9 damage to ourselves trying to play jeleva plus a mana rock or jeleva plus something else vital.
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Trinket Mage and Expedition Map. Grabbing Cavern of Souls is important if you want Jeleva to survive. It doesn't matter if she can't attack as long as you get the initial cards for you to cast.
Scroll Rack can help you manipulate your top deck to avoid exiling unnecessary cards.
While i think hall of the bandit lord is a powerful land, i dont think we want to risk that much life loss. we are running only 39 lands and 46 mana sources and we want to make sure that each of these lands can be used every turn. i feel that often times we would end up dealing 6-9 damage to ourselves trying to play jeleva plus a mana rock or jeleva plus something else vital.
This deck 100% needs Hall of the Bandit Lord. There's no way to quantify how powerful it is for a general like Jeleva or Zur.
I also think Time Warp / Temporal Manipulation / Capture of Jingzhou are great in Jeleva. Either she casts them for free, or you cast them to let her get a free trigger again off another spell she exiled.
How about Strionic Resonator? Casting 1 spell per attack lacks the "oomph" unless you can cast something big... or two big spells can be double "oomph."
I like the spellskite. It seems really solid and the game plan for time walks seems good as well. I think we want to keep the deck focused slightly on spells and greaves I feel would be somewhat weak. Our goal would be to play a signet on 2 jeleva on 3. if we have a hall that means we played it turn 1 which means we lost a total of 6 life befoer a swing even, that seems steep but it might be necessary. I think we want to stay away from stuff like curse of the cabal. We don't want anything that we can't cast naturally.
I think we also add big draw spells such as opportunity and a fee others. Then we keep the main fill of the deck removal.
Thoughts?
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So at this point the question is do we build a grixis control deck which gets value out of jeleva or do we build a deck that needs her. I'm currently favoring a control deck that just gets card advantage from her existing...
Everyone else?
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For now, control is the best approach. There will be other variation but we need to test her out to the fullest. That way we can analyze her strength and weakness in this format.
I have been brewing a Jeleva deck with the intent to cast Enter the Infinite and immediately win with Lab Maniac. This also gives us the option of a Doomsday shell, which has further synergy with Jeleva.
The major downside is that Enter the Infinite is uncastable by conventional means. The upside is that you don't have to dilute the deck with big clunky sorcerers and can devote more slots to answers and disruption. You can be a control deck and win eventually, or get a good draw and combo out with backup.
Another option is to go for Enter the Infinite but use a means other than Lab Maniac to win. If you cut the Maniac, you open up possibilities with Polymorph and Proteus Staff. This is the sort of direction I would take the deck: Jeleva plus a tutor just wins.
As setup tutors. For enter the infinite and classic tendrills win. Maybe show and tell + omniscence + dream halls + emrakul + temporal mastery + rite of consumptio + doomsday + polymorph effects (polymoprh mass polymorph + the arcane polymorph + Protus staff) makes a better win-package
Deck should have hasty equipments and cheap protection, and some rocks to get gelava faster intoplay and attacking.
I wouldn't go full control but i'll leave only few spell to protect our gamplean
Then a lot of library manipulation
I forgot about Long-Term Plans. That's a good one. We could add Cruel Tutor to that list as well. Merchant Scroll (for Mystical Tutor) works too.
The more I consider the correct build for Jeleva, the more I keep winding up with a diluted derivative of Jhoira.
I feel like Jhoira is more consistent with control, and far more deterministic with being able to stack obliterate effects with big finishing creatures without needing time walks or Strionic Resonator. The Polymorph package is also better with Jhoira because you can control what you exile so you don't need to worry about decking yourself.
I can see the fun and dynamism of multiplayer with Jeleva, but as far as consistent competitive value, I think Jhoira is better at this build.
I've been keeping an eye on Jeleva and have read through a lot of posts to see what people thought and here are some things I've found.
Everyone agrees that she should have haste so we should include cards like Anger and Urabrask the Hidden.
It seems like mulitple attack steps are going to really push this deck over the top so maybe cards like Aggravated Assault and Seize the Day can work.
I envision a control deck that seeks to have a decent board state before casting Jeleva and going nuts. Since we'll have haste and mulitple attack steps some really good fatties should be included.
i know emether used to talk about using entomb on anger this seems like a really solid plan. are we sure that the combo build is the right option. it seems potentially too loose with the random flips. So far i have been leaning towards a solid grixis control but the combo discussion does seem really interesting.
and i think if it is going to be a straight control deck it would actually be better than jhoira because we gain access to dystopia, phyrexian arena, dem tutor, damnation, new 3 mana wrath, heroes downfall, go for the throat, ad nausium, lilliana of the vail, dark tutelage etc etc etc. in addition to potentially gaining access to cards like olivia voldaren(although im not sure we would want her)
overall this discussion has been awesome to watch
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The combo Jeleva deck might be fun but I'm going the control route because it suites my playstyle
But if you're going to go combo I wouldn't try to cast Jeleva turn 3 via a signet. What if you exile a piece!!!
try insidious dreams to stack your combo, clutch of the undercity as an extra tutor to get it and answer permanents, and as an answer to drawing uncastable pieces I'm looking at things like soulspike and force of will, maybe even sickening shoal.
I think if you want to make a grixis control deck, the other new general is better. Jevela is a value commander.
which reminds me, cascade and deck stacking is nuts.
force of will makes sense for a deck such as this but i feel as though sickening shoal and soulspike are far too expensive when we have a plethora of cheap valued removal spells
and the other question is do we even want to attempt to stack the deck. when our opponent could be dropping a jace we should be removing it, countering it, or if at all possible dropping our own instead.
as for the other grixis commander i think that thrax is better than the 5 mana new one. im not hte biggest fan of this commander as he gives our opponents a phyrexian arena which is not what we want to be doing if we are not applying a ton of pressure.
this all goes back to the question, how do we win though i suppose. ill take the initial input and work on a control version over the next few days. does someone want to build the combo version and we can compare them after we both post
thanks again everyone great thoughts
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force of will makes sense for a deck such as this but i feel as though sickening shoal and soulspike are far too expensive when we have a plethora of cheap valued removal spells
and the other question is do we even want to attempt to stack the deck. when our opponent could be dropping a jace we should be removing it, countering it, or if at all possible dropping our own instead.
as for the other grixis commander i think that thrax is better than the 5 mana new one. im not hte biggest fan of this commander as he gives our opponents a phyrexian arena which is not what we want to be doing if we are not applying a ton of pressure.
this all goes back to the question, how do we win though i suppose. ill take the initial input and work on a control version over the next few days. does someone want to build the combo version and we can compare them after we both post
thanks again everyone great thoughts
I think the real strength in this commander is that you get to selectively 'cascade' one of a minimum of 4 cards from the top of your deck, and might just even hit one of your opponents cards that he either needs or ends up benefitting you.
You aren't going to win with a 1/3 flier for 4 that you don't take advantage of. Take a look at evergreen's build (and evolutions) regarding Iname, Death Aspect.
You can basically replace his spirits combo win with past in flames+game winners (omni-tell combo sounds good) in place of patriarchs bidding, add dreadbore and hero's downfall if you're that worried about jace, and then update the mana=win.
note, he also runs sickening shoal and unmask which suck up cards the same way my suggestions did, the difference is that I assume you want to selectively kill off blockers and recast Jeleva when you want to cascade the top of your deck (if it comes to it).
Also don't be afraid of symmetrical effects except in the mirror.
Did I kill this thread or are people working on a decklist?
My efforts sort of ground to a halt when I realized Jeleva might exile my wincon (Maniac or Conflagrate) along with Enter the Infinite. It shouldn't be that big of a issue, but it might require me to play both win conditions.
Also torn between a mana-rock build or rituals with Past in Flames. I know what I want to do but I am getting distracted from execution. Story of my life.
My efforts sort of ground to a halt when I realized Jeleva might exile my wincon (Maniac or Conflagrate) along with Enter the Infinite. It shouldn't be that big of a issue, but it might require me to play both win conditions.
Also torn between a mana-rock build or rituals with Past in Flames. I know what I want to do but I am getting distracted from execution. Story of my life.
try burning/cunning/death wishes if you can't adjust. also Maniac is going to be a super fragile win condition no matter if you exile it yourself or not.
try burning/cunning/death wishes if you can't adjust. also Maniac is going to be a super fragile win condition no matter if you exile it yourself or not.
The exile zone and 'outside the game' are two different zones. Wishes can only pull from sideboards which don't exist in Duel Commander.
No I'm still working on a list I'm just bogged down in uni work. Bunch of exams this week. Sorry y'all. But I am slowly working on it. I'll post as soon as I can.
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Zavros and I were looking at Jeleva this afternoon and we were thinking of ways to make her playable. we both agree that her ability is profitable but we are not entirely sure what build would be the best for her.
I currently have the mana finished, which obviously isn't much, but i think it is enough to get started. I think it would be really cool if we as a community work on the deck together and see what we can come up with. it would be really cool to work on a list and then see it at St. Nazaire or one of the other large tournaments in France coming up.
our current thought is that we want to use mana rocks to attempt to get out Jeleva on turn 3. we then want to swing on turn 4 to gain advantage. we were both thinking that this deck is going to want to be a more tap out control deck. If we fill it with counters it will make jeleva weaker in theory. however, maybe just using a single spell or maybe two is enough to gain advantage. Using ruination, Boom (Boom/Bust) or upheaval to bounce lands seems like a route to victory. Yet, we kept coming to "how does the deck win"?
so here's what we have so far, ill update the list as we figure out what should go in the deck!
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Underground River
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Shivan Reef
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Graven Cairns
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Wasteland
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Maze of Ith
1 Izzet Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Coldsteel Heart
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Scroll Rack can help you manipulate your top deck to avoid exiling unnecessary cards.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
This deck 100% needs Hall of the Bandit Lord. There's no way to quantify how powerful it is for a general like Jeleva or Zur.
I also think Time Warp / Temporal Manipulation / Capture of Jingzhou are great in Jeleva. Either she casts them for free, or you cast them to let her get a free trigger again off another spell she exiled.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
I think we also add big draw spells such as opportunity and a fee others. Then we keep the main fill of the deck removal.
Thoughts?
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Sucks that we can't carelessly use bounce wrath because of the rules.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Everyone else?
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
The major downside is that Enter the Infinite is uncastable by conventional means. The upside is that you don't have to dilute the deck with big clunky sorcerers and can devote more slots to answers and disruption. You can be a control deck and win eventually, or get a good draw and combo out with backup.
Another option is to go for Enter the Infinite but use a means other than Lab Maniac to win. If you cut the Maniac, you open up possibilities with Polymorph and Proteus Staff. This is the sort of direction I would take the deck: Jeleva plus a tutor just wins.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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I forgot about Long-Term Plans. That's a good one. We could add Cruel Tutor to that list as well. Merchant Scroll (for Mystical Tutor) works too.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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I feel like Jhoira is more consistent with control, and far more deterministic with being able to stack obliterate effects with big finishing creatures without needing time walks or Strionic Resonator. The Polymorph package is also better with Jhoira because you can control what you exile so you don't need to worry about decking yourself.
I can see the fun and dynamism of multiplayer with Jeleva, but as far as consistent competitive value, I think Jhoira is better at this build.
Everyone agrees that she should have haste so we should include cards like Anger and Urabrask the Hidden.
It seems like mulitple attack steps are going to really push this deck over the top so maybe cards like Aggravated Assault and Seize the Day can work.
I envision a control deck that seeks to have a decent board state before casting Jeleva and going nuts. Since we'll have haste and mulitple attack steps some really good fatties should be included.
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
and i think if it is going to be a straight control deck it would actually be better than jhoira because we gain access to dystopia, phyrexian arena, dem tutor, damnation, new 3 mana wrath, heroes downfall, go for the throat, ad nausium, lilliana of the vail, dark tutelage etc etc etc. in addition to potentially gaining access to cards like olivia voldaren(although im not sure we would want her)
overall this discussion has been awesome to watch
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
But if you're going to go combo I wouldn't try to cast Jeleva turn 3 via a signet. What if you exile a piece!!!
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
I think if you want to make a grixis control deck, the other new general is better. Jevela is a value commander.
which reminds me, cascade and deck stacking is nuts.
GftT, dismember, edict, heroes downfall, innocent blood etc
and the other question is do we even want to attempt to stack the deck. when our opponent could be dropping a jace we should be removing it, countering it, or if at all possible dropping our own instead.
as for the other grixis commander i think that thrax is better than the 5 mana new one. im not hte biggest fan of this commander as he gives our opponents a phyrexian arena which is not what we want to be doing if we are not applying a ton of pressure.
this all goes back to the question, how do we win though i suppose. ill take the initial input and work on a control version over the next few days. does someone want to build the combo version and we can compare them after we both post
thanks again everyone great thoughts
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
I think the real strength in this commander is that you get to selectively 'cascade' one of a minimum of 4 cards from the top of your deck, and might just even hit one of your opponents cards that he either needs or ends up benefitting you.
You aren't going to win with a 1/3 flier for 4 that you don't take advantage of. Take a look at evergreen's build (and evolutions) regarding Iname, Death Aspect.
http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=250&meta=56
You can basically replace his spirits combo win with past in flames+game winners (omni-tell combo sounds good) in place of patriarchs bidding, add dreadbore and hero's downfall if you're that worried about jace, and then update the mana=win.
note, he also runs sickening shoal and unmask which suck up cards the same way my suggestions did, the difference is that I assume you want to selectively kill off blockers and recast Jeleva when you want to cascade the top of your deck (if it comes to it).
Also don't be afraid of symmetrical effects except in the mirror.
My efforts sort of ground to a halt when I realized Jeleva might exile my wincon (Maniac or Conflagrate) along with Enter the Infinite. It shouldn't be that big of a issue, but it might require me to play both win conditions.
Also torn between a mana-rock build or rituals with Past in Flames. I know what I want to do but I am getting distracted from execution. Story of my life.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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try burning/cunning/death wishes if you can't adjust. also Maniac is going to be a super fragile win condition no matter if you exile it yourself or not.
The exile zone and 'outside the game' are two different zones. Wishes can only pull from sideboards which don't exist in Duel Commander.
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)