So after seeing Necrotic Ooze got banned, and testing my Meren deck running Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion combo (which is really, really bad) I can't see a way to make my Meren list work. Anybody got anything I could turn my husk of Meren into for about 200$, excluding fetches and duals? Alternatively does anybody have a combo to fill the necrotic ooze combo's void?
If you wanna stick to combo then Karador is the choice, but if you just want to keep Meren then there's no combo for you to abuse there atm, best to build it into a goodstuff deck. Or Elfball since that seems popular lately
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People have invested a lot of time and money in the format based on 30 life, and now suddenly a lot of those decks are obsolete as they are too slow.
A gradual change to 25 life to see how format adapts would have been more appropriate, and 25 life is at least consistent with Tiny Leaders.
Having 7 cards plus an extra card always available is stronger than just 7 cards, imagine giving Burn players in Modern 8 cards. Life higher than 20
is appropriate to stop the format being another version of Tiny Leaders or Legacy where CMC 4+ cards are disallowed or almost unplayable. The format
was not meant to be fast, it is part of the charm of the format - people can play cards that see no other play.
People have invested a lot of time and money in the format based on 30 life, and now suddenly a lot of those decks are obsolete as they are too slow.
A gradual change to 25 life to see how format adapts would have been more appropriate, and 25 life is at least consistent with Tiny Leaders.
Having 7 cards plus an extra card always available is stronger than just 7 cards, imagine giving Burn players in Modern 8 cards. Life higher than 20
is appropriate to stop the format being another version of Tiny Leaders or Legacy where CMC 4+ cards are disallowed or almost unplayable. The format
was not meant to be fast, it is part of the charm of the format - people can play cards that see no other play.
"In life, you either adapt or you perish. THAT is evolution." All decks have to evolve, lest they grow stagnant. Failing to evolve your own deck =/= deck is no longer viable. That is a player issue, not a format issue. Narset is a six drop, and it is still not only viable, but feared. You say I can't play 4+ drops?
"I disagree."
Have you heard of Batterskull? Did you know that this is a card that aggro decks just flail around helplessly to? Point is, the format will continue to evolve whether you know how to adapt your deck to fit or not. The ball is in your court.
They're not disallowed or unplayable. The format isn't actually all that fast, once you make sure your deck is able to survive a Zurgo bumrush or Doran beats. Or rather, no faster than before with Selvala or Jace floating around.
And French is quite competitive. It's just that it lacked an entire archetype.
"In life, you either adapt or you perish. THAT is evolution." All decks have to evolve, lest they grow stagnant. Failing to evolve your own deck =/= deck is no longer viable. That is a player issue, not a format issue. Narset is a six drop, and it is still not only viable, but feared. You say I can't play 4+ drops?
"I disagree."
Have you heard of Batterskull? Did you know that this is a card that aggro decks just flail around helplessly to? Point is, the format will continue to evolve whether you know how to adapt your deck to fit or not. The ball is in your court.
You can still include CMC 4+ drops, but now much less are viable and mostly cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or similar power level. If you are just dropping some cards from your deck it isn't the end of the world. But what if your entire deck becomes unviable as the commander is no longer viable and the strategy as well? Where I come from, cards are really expensive as exchange rate to US dollars makes redoing a new deck unaffordable for most. I welcome aggro, but Tiny Leaders has shown that 25 life is low enough for aggro to flourish as it does in that format. The presence of the "8th card" in hand makes the format different to Legacy/Modern and life should be different to reflect that.
If it weren't for community splitting, none of us would be here right? I'd surely have gotten tired of first-Sol-Ring-wins (original Commander) a long time ago.
If it weren't for community splitting, none of us would be here right? I'd surely have gotten tired of first-Sol-Ring-wins (original Commander) a long time ago.
This is why I hate MODO lol. I deal with it b/c, sometimes I just want to play cards at 1:15 in the morning. But God is it an awful, awful format (however fun it is to make n00bs cry at t3 Mind Twist your hand). But no, srsly that's not really a fun environment at all...
I dont like it but it clearly shows that ppl dont appreciate the recent moves by comitee
What a bunch of spoiled sports. Might as well just have said "we're bitter the committee took away our combo decks, so we're making a new format b/c we're jelly and want to usurp control from the committee". #smdh
I'm actually excited to see the change. Hopefully this will break open the format instead of decks that rely on 8 fetches and 20 life to go off.
Slight worry that counterspells.dec is going to be on the rise, but then again, maybe I should just start playing that.
Off to a new adventure!
Lol @ a seven mana sweeper in Tiny format.
If you think 20life discourages fetch < dual manabases, did you know Legacy is a format that also has 20 life? Sometimes, players even play fetch < dual there too.
I'm actually excited to see the change. Hopefully this will break open the format instead of decks that rely on 8 fetches and 20 life to go off.
Slight worry that counterspells.dec is going to be on the rise, but then again, maybe I should just start playing that.
Off to a new adventure!
Lol @ a seven mana sweeper in Tiny format.
If you think 20life discourages fetch < dual manabases, did you know Legacy is a format that also has 20 life? Sometimes, players even play fetch < dual there too.
Another good thing about 20 life is cards like Bitterblossum and Phyrexian areana drawbacks actually matter now.
I'm actually excited to see the change. Hopefully this will break open the format instead of decks that rely on 8 fetches and 20 life to go off.
Slight worry that counterspells.dec is going to be on the rise, but then again, maybe I should just start playing that.
Off to a new adventure!
Lol @ a seven mana sweeper in Tiny format.
If you think 20life discourages fetch < dual manabases, did you know Legacy is a format that also has 20 life? Sometimes, players even play fetch < dual there too.
Another good thing about 20 life is cards like Bitterblossum and Phyrexian areana drawbacks actually matter now.
...mana-fixing and fetching strategically are completely different concepts in DC and legacy. Especially with the higher amount of cantrips in legacy.
So in that regard, will it discourage fetching? No, but it will not be done as nonchalantly in combination with other spells that require life as a resource. Because a fast aggro general will be able to prey upon it. Just as burn preys on fetch+shock in modern. Lightning Bolt to the dome after spending 17 life is now deadly. 30 --> 20, it will change things.
As someone that plays the full nine fetchlands and seven fetchable duals plus six basics, no, this won't affect how I fetch. You build a deck differently for 20 than 30, but when you need a colour now, then you go get that colour. I still fetch the same way with 20 life as I did with 30 or as I have done with 40. In fact, some of my deck composition has instead shifted so as to not disturb the ecosystem of my manabase. It works. I don't find myself pressured,I don't find myself short of colour, nor do I even mulligan except in the rarest of circumstances (typically once/event). And no, that's not in anything XU either, no cantrips to smooth my draws.
You may experience problems. But that sounds very much like player error, rather than format instability. That is on you, the player, to fix.
Can I ask how much experience you have with this new 20 life rule? As it has not been in effect yet and the announcement was roughly a month ago.
20 life and the possible coming of at least a couple of aggro decks, is going to change things. I do agree that when you need a colour you should go get it, I do not agree that fetching at 20 life is the same as with 40 life. Don't mistake my words on that. I think ryan overturf at modernnexus also referenced this point in an article about "who's the beatdown". There will be scenarios just like in legacy where you will sandbag the fetchland in favour of another play.
Also to make it really clear, my original post was refering to decks using fetches + cards requiring life. Not just fetchlands on itself.
I've been playing, analyzing. and building since the announcement. Enough so that I am confident going into these future events.
I am not confident that 20 life is correct. In fact, I'm still fairly sure something strictly between 20 and 26 is. However, even as a Wanderer player, I can say confidently that you can build your old general with some deckbuilding and thought modifications. The format isn't totally degenerate as some of us feared it would be. It IS a big degenerate though (there ARE zurgo lists out there that can kill turn 3-4 consistently), you DO have 8 cards in hand, and it IS "dumber" in the sense that it's more "do you have the specific type of answer or not?". Almost like Modern was a year ago. It's also easier now for players who don't deserve to win to win anyway. We have had several players quit, an entire meta has crumbled to the point where it won't fire anymore...yet I still have to say, I am enjoying the challenge, especially with playing a deck that should for all intents and purposes be dead.
Last but not least, haven't you found that with 99 cards the variance is just too high with just 20 life? It's all about drawing the right side of the deck in your opening hand and in the next 7/10 cards.
This, I have noticed as well. With 20 life, I have noticed that well over 50% of games seem to be decided by the opening hand. Of course this percentage was also pretty high with 30 life as well, but it's certainly magnified with 20 life. It's a huge bummer. I was actually thinking about making a post that asked if people who dabble in other formats noticed the same thing in the 60 card deck formats.
The last thing that a growing format like duel commander needs is a split in the community; it needs unity, constructive criticism, experience.
Isn't this what people would say about the actual Commander format, and how this Duel Commander variant took away players?
The more formats, the better. People will flock to the ones that are the most fun. There's 1,000 channels on TV and still there are hits like Game of Thrones and Modern Family. Trying to maintain a playerbase because duel commander was there first is what is known as "rent seeking" (and also, hypocrisy).
The format is very young and you can't draw conclusions from the 2-3 tournaments published on mtgtop8 (and only the eternal weekend was of respectable size).
People play what they think is best, what they know and know how to build. We don't know yet how to build a good aggro deck, but we know how to build Jenara, and we know how to play her. The metagame will take some time to adjust. Eternal weekend was very polarised: there was a lot of people who played Jenara/Doran & TItania because everybody thought it was the best deck. So logically they are well represented in the top8. This doesn't say a lot about the format.
What's more, lots of broken cards were unbanned for this tournament and noone found the way to abuse them. Gift seems crazy in Jace deck, yet only 1 person came to the tournament with Jace. Noone tried to break grindstone or Yawgmoth' Bargain. Maybe its because the cards are not too good, but most probably because people didn't have the time to build and test new things so the played what they knew would work, and what was good against the expected metagame (Narset overperformed a lot, for only 2 players, 1 placed in the top 8, and I beat the second 1 on his win and in for the top8 - I ended up 9th after that ) That's not because narset was dominant, but because it was a great choice for a combo-less metagame where most decks were vulnerable to wrath of gods
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I did play Modern DC while it lasted (though with 20 life) and found it more interesting and balanced than DC.
That's because a Modern pool is more well rounded and without the busted cards of Eternal. I've actually got the blueprints of a Modern DC (25 life, no sideboard) that I'm ready to initiate here in my area. In addition to DC (which I love the direction of, but if I can't get others to play...well, my Modern DC fallback has to be a plan B). Iirc, my ban list was five cards (and five as commander only), with a cardpool of "8th edition - Origins", "MRD - Present [Kaladesh atm], and the Commander sets (c11, c13, c14, c15, & c16).
Dark Depths, Gifts Ungiven, Protean Hulk, Sol Ring, True-Name Nemesis (True-Name banned by the same logic of Serra in DC - it doesn't function as intended in a 1v1 format).
Banned as Commander: Derevi, Edric, Oloro, Yisan, Zur
Which feels like a fair, "Safe" DC as it eliminates the busted tutours and at least a handful of mana dorks while not eliminating all the dorks.
I think you could make a second section on the banlist for the ante cards since they're usually not very relevant (and are banned in every format anyways). The Gaea's Cradle link also doesn't seem to work.
The website is currently not maintained by the Rules Commitee afaik, and there should be a new one soon. For now, the official "website" is this Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/mtgduelcommander/?fref=nf
Only one mistake that I've seen so far:
First, players start the game with 30 life. (In the Official Rules section, though again, it is true until November 11)
Wait, is that right? Did I miss an announcement? The upper left corner of DuelCommander.com says this:
"The official website and your best resource for MTG duel Commander games. Rules, French banlists, news, blog posts and announcements from the committee."
EDIT: Added the November 11th life change caveat, official Facebook page link, added Ante cards to the ban list, and fixed the Gaea's Cradle link.
Karador Pattern Rector GWB
Anafenza the Foremost GWB
Meren of Clan Nel Toth (Stax)GB
[Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
People have invested a lot of time and money in the format based on 30 life, and now suddenly a lot of those decks are obsolete as they are too slow.
A gradual change to 25 life to see how format adapts would have been more appropriate, and 25 life is at least consistent with Tiny Leaders.
Having 7 cards plus an extra card always available is stronger than just 7 cards, imagine giving Burn players in Modern 8 cards. Life higher than 20
is appropriate to stop the format being another version of Tiny Leaders or Legacy where CMC 4+ cards are disallowed or almost unplayable. The format
was not meant to be fast, it is part of the charm of the format - people can play cards that see no other play.
"In life, you either adapt or you perish. THAT is evolution." All decks have to evolve, lest they grow stagnant. Failing to evolve your own deck =/= deck is no longer viable. That is a player issue, not a format issue. Narset is a six drop, and it is still not only viable, but feared. You say I can't play 4+ drops?
"I disagree."
Have you heard of Batterskull? Did you know that this is a card that aggro decks just flail around helplessly to? Point is, the format will continue to evolve whether you know how to adapt your deck to fit or not. The ball is in your court.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
You can still include CMC 4+ drops, but now much less are viable and mostly cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or similar power level. If you are just dropping some cards from your deck it isn't the end of the world. But what if your entire deck becomes unviable as the commander is no longer viable and the strategy as well? Where I come from, cards are really expensive as exchange rate to US dollars makes redoing a new deck unaffordable for most. I welcome aggro, but Tiny Leaders has shown that 25 life is low enough for aggro to flourish as it does in that format. The presence of the "8th card" in hand makes the format different to Legacy/Modern and life should be different to reflect that.
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StaffThis is why I hate MODO lol. I deal with it b/c, sometimes I just want to play cards at 1:15 in the morning. But God is it an awful, awful format (however fun it is to make n00bs cry at t3 Mind Twist your hand). But no, srsly that's not really a fun environment at all...
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
What a bunch of spoiled sports. Might as well just have said "we're bitter the committee took away our combo decks, so we're making a new format b/c we're jelly and want to usurp control from the committee". #smdh
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Lol @ a seven mana sweeper in Tiny format.
If you think 20life discourages fetch < dual manabases, did you know Legacy is a format that also has 20 life? Sometimes, players even play fetch < dual there too.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Another good thing about 20 life is cards like Bitterblossum and Phyrexian areana drawbacks actually matter now.
Nah, just more reason to play Basilisk Collar really.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
As someone that plays the full nine fetchlands and seven fetchable duals plus six basics, no, this won't affect how I fetch. You build a deck differently for 20 than 30, but when you need a colour now, then you go get that colour. I still fetch the same way with 20 life as I did with 30 or as I have done with 40. In fact, some of my deck composition has instead shifted so as to not disturb the ecosystem of my manabase. It works. I don't find myself pressured,I don't find myself short of colour, nor do I even mulligan except in the rarest of circumstances (typically once/event). And no, that's not in anything XU either, no cantrips to smooth my draws.
You may experience problems. But that sounds very much like player error, rather than format instability. That is on you, the player, to fix.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I've been playing, analyzing. and building since the announcement. Enough so that I am confident going into these future events.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
This, I have noticed as well. With 20 life, I have noticed that well over 50% of games seem to be decided by the opening hand. Of course this percentage was also pretty high with 30 life as well, but it's certainly magnified with 20 life. It's a huge bummer. I was actually thinking about making a post that asked if people who dabble in other formats noticed the same thing in the 60 card deck formats.
Isn't this what people would say about the actual Commander format, and how this Duel Commander variant took away players?
The more formats, the better. People will flock to the ones that are the most fun. There's 1,000 channels on TV and still there are hits like Game of Thrones and Modern Family. Trying to maintain a playerbase because duel commander was there first is what is known as "rent seeking" (and also, hypocrisy).
People play what they think is best, what they know and know how to build. We don't know yet how to build a good aggro deck, but we know how to build Jenara, and we know how to play her. The metagame will take some time to adjust. Eternal weekend was very polarised: there was a lot of people who played Jenara/Doran & TItania because everybody thought it was the best deck. So logically they are well represented in the top8. This doesn't say a lot about the format.
What's more, lots of broken cards were unbanned for this tournament and noone found the way to abuse them. Gift seems crazy in Jace deck, yet only 1 person came to the tournament with Jace. Noone tried to break grindstone or Yawgmoth' Bargain. Maybe its because the cards are not too good, but most probably because people didn't have the time to build and test new things so the played what they knew would work, and what was good against the expected metagame (Narset overperformed a lot, for only 2 players, 1 placed in the top 8, and I beat the second 1 on his win and in for the top8 - I ended up 9th after that
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That's because a Modern pool is more well rounded and without the busted cards of Eternal. I've actually got the blueprints of a Modern DC (25 life, no sideboard) that I'm ready to initiate here in my area. In addition to DC (which I love the direction of, but if I can't get others to play...well, my Modern DC fallback has to be a plan B). Iirc, my ban list was five cards (and five as commander only), with a cardpool of "8th edition - Origins", "MRD - Present [Kaladesh atm], and the Commander sets (c11, c13, c14, c15, & c16).
Dark Depths, Gifts Ungiven, Protean Hulk, Sol Ring, True-Name Nemesis (True-Name banned by the same logic of Serra in DC - it doesn't function as intended in a 1v1 format).
Banned as Commander: Derevi, Edric, Oloro, Yisan, Zur
Which feels like a fair, "Safe" DC as it eliminates the busted tutours and at least a handful of mana dorks while not eliminating all the dorks.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
As always: any and all feedback is welcome!
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StaffThank you for this!
Well, you did drunkenly threaten to ban me on Cockatrice if I didn't update this, so.. ;P
(I MIGHT be down to write something for the Salvation homepage. Still thinking about it!)
Wait, is that right? Did I miss an announcement? The upper left corner of DuelCommander.com says this:
"The official website and your best resource for MTG duel Commander games. Rules, French banlists, news, blog posts and announcements from the committee."
EDIT: Added the November 11th life change caveat, official Facebook page link, added Ante cards to the ban list, and fixed the Gaea's Cradle link.
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