oh I would love to play with chess clock brings back old memories
I think I could win 40% of games on Cockatrice with 99 Islands and a chess clock.
Curious to see the impact of the new mulligan rule. Personally, I think the way that Partial Paris reduces mana screw is a bigger benefit than the harm it causes via aggressive mulligans in otherwise suboptimal decks. So kind of disappointed that a few more games will now be decided by mana screw... even though a few less will be decided by aggressive mulligans into the nuts.
To me, the Partial Paris lead to higher cmc, which should be considered great for the format...
When you have to mulligan all your hand, basically not keeping any land, decks need to be moved toward lower cmc cards, which I don't think for commander is that healthier... Everything for Aggro players, but it looks like they want to kill the combo players for that , it is already the least winning deck type lately, it will soon be gone if everytime a new announcement is moved toward agressive players
I really like it. I was unhappy at first but always getting nut hands for or against gets a little old sometimes. Will make for much more interesting and interactive games IMO.
After a few games with the new mulligan, it does seem to slow down the format a bit. Which I guess is a good thing (otherwise, why are we using 30 life?). The fear of the unknown is so great when you have to pitch everything back that you end up being much more conservative and accepting of your opening 7.
What I really want to see is some Magic Online data about how often a player who mulligans in the new system will win games, versus how often they would win in the old system. It's like the perfect scenario for some A/B testing and comparison.
Can someone explain the partial Paris and Vancouver mulligans? I play constructed, what is the normal mulligan rules? Is Vancouver just the new scry rule?
Can someone explain the partial Paris and Vancouver mulligans? I play constructed, what is the normal mulligan rules? Is Vancouver just the new scry rule?
Vancouver mulligan is just the normal Magic mulligan which now has the scry added to it.
Partial Paris is a mulligan where you can 'sculpt' a starting hand - Let's say in your opening 7 there are 3 cards that are great and 4 that aren't good for starting the current game with. You may exile those 4 cards face down, then draw that many cards MINUS ONE. You may repeat this process as much as you like, losing one card each time just like a regular mulligan. Once you are satisfied with your hand, pick up and shuffle in all of the facedown cards back into your library and begin the game.
Duel Commander currently is using the Vancouver Mulligan in place of Partial Paris. This was a recent change which is why you may see references to 'Partial' mulligans in earlier discussions.
I put a thread in the main forum of commander asking for a restructuring of the subforums here. I think it is time for duel commander to have its own exclusive subforum, separated from decklists and ideas for 1v1 that are related to the regular banlist or 'wizards' banlist. Having its own subforum in my opinion is not only good for discussion and practical when searching decklists, but it will also help with some of the questions of visibility that people have been talking about. Anyone interested in joining the discussion, to agree o to disagree with me, the thread is this:
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Ashiok - thanks for posting that thread. I'd been wanting to do so myself (with a lot more text though :P) for awhile. I'll just add by two cents and hope that the discussion gets us somewhere!
Where is the correct place on this site to post details of an upcoming Duel Commander tournament?
There will be an event taking place in Scotland in January and I'd like to advertise it to any Duel Commander players based in the UK - or further away if people are happy to travel
We have finally finished studying all the applications!
We are happy to welcome 3 new members in the Duel Commander Rules Committee:
- Brennan McAlear (Dan Pyre), USA
- Michele Atzeni, Italia
- Tomee Tomelden, Philippines
Thanks again for all your emails, if the regional coordinator experience is a success, we will be happy to contact more people and to make room for even more passionate players!
Their respective profiles will be posted soon on this Facebook page
Congratulations to my fellows and good luck! I hope that we do some great work for the format!
French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
Ya it's pretty good general, but no where near the power level of Derevi, Zur, Oloro etc. Let it sit in the meta for a few months, if it continues to dominate world Tournaments, then we have another look at it. Online, I've played against it twice, but both times it didn't feel like it was out of control (however, I did manage to counter an Upheaval which I understand normally instant wins..). A little more tournament/time data feels right in this situation.
Hmmm........... Think his results are starting to speak loud and clear (and I said this back in April...)
Is Tasigur good for our metagame?
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French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
After Tasigur another control general will shine. Who will it be? Probably Narset. Then we'll need to ban her. Then the next one, and the next one.
It's an unhealthy mindset. And if that's the standard we're gonna have then maybe something with the format itself needs looking at.
If Zur wasn't banned, we wouldn't be talking about Tasigur or Narset. I don't really see the point of your statement. If you don't ban an overwhelmingly best commander, you just have the exact same metagame until you do. I've enjoyed not playing against Zur for the last couple of years, because I've gotten to see Tasigur and Narset. I'll enjoy playing against whatever pops up in their absence too. Formats get stale if the card pool remains the same and there's little banning activity. That's why every single format outside of Legacy/Vintage rotates sets in and out.
After Tasigur another control general will shine. Who will it be? Probably Narset. Then we'll need to ban her. Then the next one, and the next one.
It's an unhealthy mindset. And if that's the standard we're gonna have then maybe something with the format itself needs looking at.
If Zur wasn't banned, we wouldn't be talking about Tasigur or Narset. I don't really see the point of your statement. If you don't ban an overwhelmingly best commander, you just have the exact same metagame until you do.
I agree with this.
My argument for banning is similar to the Derevi ban. The ability to have a reduce mana cost for a general granting the pilot to ALWAYS leave counter magic up is incredibly strong. Then combine that with a built-in card drawing mechanic, that continues to fuel his future casts puts it over the top. Similarly to Derevi, Tasigur has a few cards that completely tilt a game in his favor and win if left uncountered (Hokori / Rising Waters for Derevi ; Upheavel for Tasigur)
I'm ok with Tasigur staying, but I'll just spam it out online until the cows come home..
French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
Lol what? You should come onto Cockatrice then and see what most online players are doing. Most of them know resolving a single Upheavel is a guaranteed win. 66%+ of my control games end with finding that one card. The rest are just attrition and card advantage wins...
French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
It seems the idea for an exclusive Duel Commander forum was approved on MTGsalvation. I think it is a great step forward.
Regarding Tasigur... it is a strong control general, probably the strongest, but I don't see him as that much of a problem. He is vulnerable to cards such as Dust Bowl (unless he finds loam or something) and there are decks that can outgrind him, though granted not that many (I play mostly monogreen, my Azusa and my Yisan have beated Tasigur with sheer card advantage, but that usually depends on how things go on the early game).
Not sure, I don't him as being that problematic mostly because he is a slow clock in on itself and usually it is hard for me to see the tasigur players taking too much advantage from his ability. I would first ban upheaval than Tasigur, mostly because it encourages a style of game that I don't think it is fun at all (it is not a 'I win' card like Devastation on Daretti, it is just a 'Reset the board with some advantage' card). In some decks it could be 'I win', but I've came back from Tasigur's upheaval to win games and I've seen draws being forced in tournaments due to that card. I just don't think it is healthy.
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Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
IMO Tasigur is too Strong for the following reasons:
1.Can beat another control decks easyly because you never have to tap out to cast him, and you can recover cards with his ability breaking all card advantage you got.
2.Sultai is a great shell to control in commander, you can play instant speed all game with the best cards in commander and adapt the list to any meta.
3.Narset can't be played like tasigur, because the player will need to tap out to cast her or to cast ramp giving "windows" to snatch the game back, and if you kill her one time is really hard to to cast her again.
I think tasigur is weaker than Zur, Oloro and Derevi but again the ability to cast him multiple times basically with no costs and the card quality makes him.really hard to beat in a fair way. In my tests few decks can beat him, only Maelstrom Wanderer and marath can beat him consistently
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“there is nothing outside of yourself that can ever enable you to get better, stronger, richer, quicker, or smarter. Everything is within. Everything exists. Seek nothing outside of yourself.”
― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
If someone could copy-paste it here that would be great.
I've added the announcement in a stickied post in this subforum. It's not as pretty, but it has all of the correct text. Unfortunately, some of the cards aren't pulling up correctly, and I apologize for that.
I don't think that they orange listed Yisan because it can not be beat.
Yisan is just a very powerful and consistent deck that is pretty easy to play. Putting cards into play that you tutor out from your deck feels a lot like a monogreen Zur that never has to go to the combat step to trigger.
It doesn't help that Yisan is one of the best abusers of both Gaea's Cradle and Survival of the Fittest.
I don't think that they orange listed Yisan because it can not be beat.
Yisan is just a very powerful and consistent deck that is pretty easy to play. Putting cards into play that you tutor out from your deck feels a lot like a monogreen Zur that never has to go to the combat step to trigger.
It doesn't help that Yisan is one of the best abusers of both Gaea's Cradle and Survival of the Fittest.
You've got the right idea, Smiley.
Yisan is on the orange list because he does need to be monitored in terms of competitive effectiveness. For example, Birthing Pod was banned in Modern for being able to tutor through a deck incredibly consistently. A player was able to maintain boardstate with Persist cards like Kitchen Finks while still putting new creatures into play without playing any cards from their hand using Birthing Pod.
Yisan is very much Duel Commander's 'Birthing Pod' deck. So by casting your general on T2 or T3 (using no nonland or mana dork cards from hand) and activating him several times (still using no nonland or mana dork cards from hand) you are able to generate an enormous board presence. With cards like Gaea's Cradle and Survival of the Fittest, it's very Yisan to create a difference in board advantage using nothing but mana. Indeed, it seems counter intuitive that a Mono-G deck would even be up for debate as a bannable commander (Rofellos aside) but he does bear a striking resemblance to what made Zur so oppressive. He trades up being in the best control colors and not needing mana to activate for the ability to put increasingly larger creatures onto the battlefield around counterspells, sometimes multiple times a turn. Zur could never put more than one permanents onto the battlefield at a time.
That said, promoting people to play early removal to deal with Yisan is not necessarily a bad thing, but Yisan will always be guaranteed if he is your Commander - removal may not in a 99 card singleton deck.
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I think I could win 40% of games on Cockatrice with 99 Islands and a chess clock.
Curious to see the impact of the new mulligan rule. Personally, I think the way that Partial Paris reduces mana screw is a bigger benefit than the harm it causes via aggressive mulligans in otherwise suboptimal decks. So kind of disappointed that a few more games will now be decided by mana screw... even though a few less will be decided by aggressive mulligans into the nuts.
When you have to mulligan all your hand, basically not keeping any land, decks need to be moved toward lower cmc cards, which I don't think for commander is that healthier... Everything for Aggro players, but it looks like they want to kill the combo players for that
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
What I really want to see is some Magic Online data about how often a player who mulligans in the new system will win games, versus how often they would win in the old system. It's like the perfect scenario for some A/B testing and comparison.
Vancouver mulligan is just the normal Magic mulligan which now has the scry added to it.
Partial Paris is a mulligan where you can 'sculpt' a starting hand - Let's say in your opening 7 there are 3 cards that are great and 4 that aren't good for starting the current game with. You may exile those 4 cards face down, then draw that many cards MINUS ONE. You may repeat this process as much as you like, losing one card each time just like a regular mulligan. Once you are satisfied with your hand, pick up and shuffle in all of the facedown cards back into your library and begin the game.
Duel Commander currently is using the Vancouver Mulligan in place of Partial Paris. This was a recent change which is why you may see references to 'Partial' mulligans in earlier discussions.
I put a thread in the main forum of commander asking for a restructuring of the subforums here. I think it is time for duel commander to have its own exclusive subforum, separated from decklists and ideas for 1v1 that are related to the regular banlist or 'wizards' banlist. Having its own subforum in my opinion is not only good for discussion and practical when searching decklists, but it will also help with some of the questions of visibility that people have been talking about. Anyone interested in joining the discussion, to agree o to disagree with me, the thread is this:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/646679-suggestion-on-forum-restructuring
Peace.
- Ashiok (Ixidor on Cockatrice)
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
This would be a great thing to have in our Very own Duel Commander Subforum... if we had one!
Feel free to voice your opinion there!
Congratulations to my fellows and good luck! I hope that we do some great work for the format!
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BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
Hmmm........... Think his results are starting to speak loud and clear (and I said this back in April...)
Is Tasigur good for our metagame?
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
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StaffIt's an unhealthy mindset. And if that's the standard we're gonna have then maybe something with the format itself needs looking at.
If Zur wasn't banned, we wouldn't be talking about Tasigur or Narset. I don't really see the point of your statement. If you don't ban an overwhelmingly best commander, you just have the exact same metagame until you do. I've enjoyed not playing against Zur for the last couple of years, because I've gotten to see Tasigur and Narset. I'll enjoy playing against whatever pops up in their absence too. Formats get stale if the card pool remains the same and there's little banning activity. That's why every single format outside of Legacy/Vintage rotates sets in and out.
I agree with this.
My argument for banning is similar to the Derevi ban. The ability to have a reduce mana cost for a general granting the pilot to ALWAYS leave counter magic up is incredibly strong. Then combine that with a built-in card drawing mechanic, that continues to fuel his future casts puts it over the top. Similarly to Derevi, Tasigur has a few cards that completely tilt a game in his favor and win if left uncountered (Hokori / Rising Waters for Derevi ; Upheavel for Tasigur)
I'm ok with Tasigur staying, but I'll just spam it out online until the cows come home..
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
Regarding Tasigur... it is a strong control general, probably the strongest, but I don't see him as that much of a problem. He is vulnerable to cards such as Dust Bowl (unless he finds loam or something) and there are decks that can outgrind him, though granted not that many (I play mostly monogreen, my Azusa and my Yisan have beated Tasigur with sheer card advantage, but that usually depends on how things go on the early game).
Not sure, I don't him as being that problematic mostly because he is a slow clock in on itself and usually it is hard for me to see the tasigur players taking too much advantage from his ability. I would first ban upheaval than Tasigur, mostly because it encourages a style of game that I don't think it is fun at all (it is not a 'I win' card like Devastation on Daretti, it is just a 'Reset the board with some advantage' card). In some decks it could be 'I win', but I've came back from Tasigur's upheaval to win games and I've seen draws being forced in tournaments due to that card. I just don't think it is healthy.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
1.Can beat another control decks easyly because you never have to tap out to cast him, and you can recover cards with his ability breaking all card advantage you got.
2.Sultai is a great shell to control in commander, you can play instant speed all game with the best cards in commander and adapt the list to any meta.
3.Narset can't be played like tasigur, because the player will need to tap out to cast her or to cast ramp giving "windows" to snatch the game back, and if you kill her one time is really hard to to cast her again.
I think tasigur is weaker than Zur, Oloro and Derevi but again the ability to cast him multiple times basically with no costs and the card quality makes him.really hard to beat in a fair way. In my tests few decks can beat him, only Maelstrom Wanderer and marath can beat him consistently
― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
https://www.facebook.com/notes/mtg-duel-commander/oath-of-the-gatewatch-january-2016-rules-banlist-update/1698383143745919
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Yisan is just a very powerful and consistent deck that is pretty easy to play. Putting cards into play that you tutor out from your deck feels a lot like a monogreen Zur that never has to go to the combat step to trigger.
It doesn't help that Yisan is one of the best abusers of both Gaea's Cradle and Survival of the Fittest.
You've got the right idea, Smiley.
Yisan is on the orange list because he does need to be monitored in terms of competitive effectiveness. For example, Birthing Pod was banned in Modern for being able to tutor through a deck incredibly consistently. A player was able to maintain boardstate with Persist cards like Kitchen Finks while still putting new creatures into play without playing any cards from their hand using Birthing Pod.
Yisan is very much Duel Commander's 'Birthing Pod' deck. So by casting your general on T2 or T3 (using no nonland or mana dork cards from hand) and activating him several times (still using no nonland or mana dork cards from hand) you are able to generate an enormous board presence. With cards like Gaea's Cradle and Survival of the Fittest, it's very Yisan to create a difference in board advantage using nothing but mana. Indeed, it seems counter intuitive that a Mono-G deck would even be up for debate as a bannable commander (Rofellos aside) but he does bear a striking resemblance to what made Zur so oppressive. He trades up being in the best control colors and not needing mana to activate for the ability to put increasingly larger creatures onto the battlefield around counterspells, sometimes multiple times a turn. Zur could never put more than one permanents onto the battlefield at a time.
That said, promoting people to play early removal to deal with Yisan is not necessarily a bad thing, but Yisan will always be guaranteed if he is your Commander - removal may not in a 99 card singleton deck.