After 10ish hours of testing with Evergreen, I've added in some manlands (thinking of Faerie Conclave) and additional counter options.
Our games were pretty much summed up by the ability to wipe the board or not. If a wipe resolved, and he was then able to cast iname, I was pretty screwed. If I could stop a wipe (or drop and swing with sword of FaF - by far the number one killer) then I would generally win.
Manlands dont die to wipes, and additionally make my actual creature count go up without it looking like it.
Stuff I've been looking into:
Akrasan Squire - It's an innocuous one drop that functions as a 2/2. Or, with the use intended, gives Geist a bit of a boost to enable it to get through in situations where it might not, such as when facing down a 2/2. I still want damage done.
Delver of Secrets - I run plenty of topdeck manipulation. Flipping this generally wont be too hard, and as a plus it's a solid evasive body that i can equip swords to. With the number of non-permanent spells I run, it should flip within a turn or two of being played.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Nabs your two game-ending enchantments (have you ever lost after resolving Angelic Destiny or Steel of the Godhead?), adding some great tutoring consistency.
Have you already considered the 'wisp?
The only other card I see in that list that you aren't running that may be decent (and isn't obviously with a multiplayer setting in mind) is Writ of Passage, but I'm not so sure about that one.
The problem with Tallowisp is that it requires me to run bad spirits or arcane spells in order to support it. Sure, it triggers when I cast Geist, but I don't think that's enough ways to make it useful.
Writ of Passage was also considered, but i'm leaning towards the "no" department, as it fails horribly the topdeck test.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Wayfarer was, 90% of the time, a 1/1 for 1. When it did do something, it was awesome.. but I need something better.
Sword of Body and Mind was good primarily in the edric matchup, but was useless in many others, as folks are starting to run either graveyard based decks or decks that just use it as a secondary resource. The bodies weren't effective enough compared to this.
Meanwhile, Impulse is a fantastic cantrip that digs four down. At instant speed. As I love my cantrips, it's in. Already its effectiveness has been shown in several games.
A Wrath! My Kingdom for a Wrath! ...finally added one. Too necessary to ignore, starting with one, DoJ might eventually find room.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Have you tried out Grafted Wargear with Geist? It turns him into a sizeable threat for only 3 mana. Sure, a simple Naturalize can deal with him, but you are running counterspells... Something to think about?
Sov of Lost Alara/Conscription - It's really too expensive for me to want to try it. And drawing conscription really sucks. Not a fan.
Turnabout - An interesting idea, but I think if I wanted this sort of card i'd start with Early Frost
Steelshaper's Gift - I'd say this is one of the strongest cards in the deck. Much of the time, I win a game because I was able to tutor for one of the swords and slap it on geist. I wouldn't consider cutting it.
Plate/Armor - Plate just doesnt do anything, and the armor is too costly. While I like the idea of being able to nuke something every attack step... not for 12 mana.
Grafted Wargear - I think this warrants testing. Giving geist more staying power for virtually free is always great - and it turns my 1/1s into threats, much like the swords.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Geist is already plenty hard to remove with just hexproof. I don't feel a need to run a sub-par equipment for the other 10% of removal that can actually deal with him. I can say with confidence that so far, very few games would have changed if Geist was indestructible.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I can't quite grasp the fact that you want to run Meddling Mage. It's not like you can tutor for it when you need to- seems like you kind of luck into drawing it at the right time. If you really want that type of effect, then why don't you run Nevermore? At least this way you can tutor for it via Enlightened Tutor. I'd personally run Nevermore over Meddling Mage, and then add the mage as a second nevermore if need be, but it's your call.
I think I might want to look into another counterspell or two sometime in the future, as it feels like I don't have one when I want it, but I do have enough for when I need it. Go figure.
List runs very smoothly, no glaring errors or unwinnable matchups.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
If you were to hypothetically convert this to a multiplayer bl version, would it be worthwhile to add mana crypt or sol ring? Many of your creatures/spells are fairly color intensive so really the only benefit of colorless acceleration would be to bring out the equipment faster...
If you were to hypothetically convert this to a multiplayer bl version, would it be worthwhile to add mana crypt or sol ring? Many of your creatures/spells are fairly color intensive so really the only benefit of colorless acceleration would be to bring out the equipment faster...
Probably not, unless I was to increase the curve and provide a need for the extra mana. The deck right now is tuned for to curve perfectly, and doesn't need or want the extra mana.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
No, in this case, the Hard Counter is superior to the soft, and helps cheat land drops, which can be especially important under a winter orb. Geist isn't powerful enough to want purely tempo based soft counters to deal with something later like Edric and Rafiq want. (Edric just draws a new hand and rafiq kills you)
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Update - to combat the higher number of creature based decks and red decks I've seen/played against - Runechanter's Pike is now Sword of War and Peace. Relevant protections and now relevant lifegain make this a winner.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I've been playing this deck a lot in the few days. I know you've been watching my games a few times
I went ahead and added more counter spells (took out War and Peace, didn't really help me very much besides the protection I guess?) and took out one of the more clunky creatures and replaced it with Guilded Drake. I think the more Counterspells you stack in the deck the better because once you have Saint on the board, you basically are just trying to find your Swords, make sure your opponent doesn't play any bombs and make sure Saint is constantly swinging for damage. I found the best way to achieve this is have more counterspell control and bounce. Those are just my preferences. Maybe the Sword has been more helpful to you than me.
Have you thought about Tangle Wire? Probably been suggested before, but slowing doing your opponent in the early game while you get your lands up or drop Saint into play can seal games quickly
French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
Regarding your list: I rather like it as a port between both multiplayer and 1v1. It retains much of the speed and fluidity of the 1v1 list, but adds additional power that I can't justify for a purely 1v1 deck.
As long as you're running Sun Titan, you might consider Jace 1.0, who I really love as a walker.
On Drift: It's too slow and unwieldy for me to use. At three mana, I can't justify spending that much mana to search for anything.
Stonecloaker is always awesome, but again that three mana interferes. I had been thinking of adding Relic of Progenitus if graveyard shenanigans become too commonplace, however.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I've been playing Geist in my local EDH league since Innistrad came out (it was love at first sight). I've been very much influenced by this thread, so I might as well post my decklist:
~~~~~super snip~~~~~
I will definitely remove Skycloud Expanse because it doesn't get on well with double costs. I'm still looking for a Polluted Delta.
What do you guys think about Maze of Ith? Apart from the obvious uses, it lets us attack with Geist for 4 damage without caring about opposing chumpblockers.
Are the shackles worth it? For the same cost, I usually prefer a Sword. I haven't tried them, though, so I don't have an opinion here.
My meta is full of Edric, Zur, Doran, Lyzolda and Thraximundar good stuff, in case you have some advice for me
Welcome to Geist, the only decent general to have two creatures in one. Cheating, go.
Maze of Ith - For the tempo variant, Maze is a bit cute for my tastes. Hitting your land drops is incredibly important here, and Maze doesn't count as a land until you've reached the critical mass of 5 lands. Instead, Writ of Passage might be a better option.
Shackles is totally worth it. Every bit of it. Shackles is the best way to beat Zur and other general-centric lists, as well as being a randomly decent topdeck against everything else.
Our games were pretty much summed up by the ability to wipe the board or not. If a wipe resolved, and he was then able to cast iname, I was pretty screwed. If I could stop a wipe (or drop and swing with sword of FaF - by far the number one killer) then I would generally win.
Manlands dont die to wipes, and additionally make my actual creature count go up without it looking like it.
Stuff I've been looking into:
Akrasan Squire - It's an innocuous one drop that functions as a 2/2. Or, with the use intended, gives Geist a bit of a boost to enable it to get through in situations where it might not, such as when facing down a 2/2. I still want damage done.
Delver of Secrets - I run plenty of topdeck manipulation. Flipping this generally wont be too hard, and as a plus it's a solid evasive body that i can equip swords to. With the number of non-permanent spells I run, it should flip within a turn or two of being played.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Nabs your two game-ending enchantments (have you ever lost after resolving Angelic Destiny or Steel of the Godhead?), adding some great tutoring consistency.
Have you already considered the 'wisp?
The only other card I see in that list that you aren't running that may be decent (and isn't obviously with a multiplayer setting in mind) is Writ of Passage, but I'm not so sure about that one.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Writ of Passage was also considered, but i'm leaning towards the "no" department, as it fails horribly the topdeck test.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
- Weathered Wayfarer
- Sword of Body and Mind
+ Impulse
+ Wrath of God
Wayfarer was, 90% of the time, a 1/1 for 1. When it did do something, it was awesome.. but I need something better.
Sword of Body and Mind was good primarily in the edric matchup, but was useless in many others, as folks are starting to run either graveyard based decks or decks that just use it as a secondary resource. The bodies weren't effective enough compared to this.
Meanwhile, Impulse is a fantastic cantrip that digs four down. At instant speed. As I love my cantrips, it's in. Already its effectiveness has been shown in several games.
A Wrath! My Kingdom for a Wrath! ...finally added one. Too necessary to ignore, starting with one, DoJ might eventually find room.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Of all the cards in your list, steelshaper's gift is the weakest.
Turnabout - An interesting idea, but I think if I wanted this sort of card i'd start with Early Frost
Steelshaper's Gift - I'd say this is one of the strongest cards in the deck. Much of the time, I win a game because I was able to tutor for one of the swords and slap it on geist. I wouldn't consider cutting it.
Plate/Armor - Plate just doesnt do anything, and the armor is too costly. While I like the idea of being able to nuke something every attack step... not for 12 mana.
Grafted Wargear - I think this warrants testing. Giving geist more staying power for virtually free is always great - and it turns my 1/1s into threats, much like the swords.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Have you ever tried to remove something that was indestructible and hexproof? It's quite difficult.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Worst case, it names their general and carries a sword. Best case, it completely locks them out of the game (as has happened multiple times)
Nevermore, on the other hand, simply says "no" to a particular card. No beatstick option.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
- Mana Drain
+ Day of Judgment
as per Dec 20 banlist
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I think I might want to look into another counterspell or two sometime in the future, as it feels like I don't have one when I want it, but I do have enough for when I need it. Go figure.
List runs very smoothly, no glaring errors or unwinnable matchups.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Probably not, unless I was to increase the curve and provide a need for the extra mana. The deck right now is tuned for to curve perfectly, and doesn't need or want the extra mana.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
No, in this case, the Hard Counter is superior to the soft, and helps cheat land drops, which can be especially important under a winter orb. Geist isn't powerful enough to want purely tempo based soft counters to deal with something later like Edric and Rafiq want. (Edric just draws a new hand and rafiq kills you)
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I went ahead and added more counter spells (took out War and Peace, didn't really help me very much besides the protection I guess?) and took out one of the more clunky creatures and replaced it with Guilded Drake. I think the more Counterspells you stack in the deck the better because once you have Saint on the board, you basically are just trying to find your Swords, make sure your opponent doesn't play any bombs and make sure Saint is constantly swinging for damage. I found the best way to achieve this is have more counterspell control and bounce. Those are just my preferences. Maybe the Sword has been more helpful to you than me.
Have you thought about Tangle Wire? Probably been suggested before, but slowing doing your opponent in the early game while you get your lands up or drop Saint into play can seal games quickly
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
As long as you're running Sun Titan, you might consider Jace 1.0, who I really love as a walker.
On Drift: It's too slow and unwieldy for me to use. At three mana, I can't justify spending that much mana to search for anything.
Stonecloaker is always awesome, but again that three mana interferes. I had been thinking of adding Relic of Progenitus if graveyard shenanigans become too commonplace, however.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Welcome to Geist, the only decent general to have two creatures in one. Cheating, go.
Maze of Ith - For the tempo variant, Maze is a bit cute for my tastes. Hitting your land drops is incredibly important here, and Maze doesn't count as a land until you've reached the critical mass of 5 lands. Instead, Writ of Passage might be a better option.
Shackles is totally worth it. Every bit of it. Shackles is the best way to beat Zur and other general-centric lists, as well as being a randomly decent topdeck against everything else.
Some musings:
I'm jumping onto the Tallowisp train. It curves out fantastically with my general, and has good potential later on as more sets are released. Along with the wisp, I'm looking to try out Dungeon Geists, Disrupting Shoal, Threads of Disloyalty, and Control Magic.
I'll update the front page with my current list soon.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary