You know, if you keep having trouble with your things being stolen, you could always consider Brooding Saurian too, as I know he was being bandied about in the other Sisay thread (when it was still being updated). Personally, I never found a use for him because when I still ran it, I never seemed to get it and could never really find it (I ran less tutors back then, too). But I can definitely get behind Homeward Path.
Personally I'm still having problems with voltron generals, especially when they hit a Greaves or Swiftfoot. I mean it's still a favorable matchup because Sisay has such an efficient curve, but Rafiq always seems to sit there and eat up all my mana dorks and keeps me on the back foot. I'm half tempted to run Commander Eesha just for the chump-blocker value (he also works decently vs. Skittles), but I don't think that's a wise decision. Bleh, I should probably just aggressively mulligan for some spot removal and hope for the best.
Sword of Feast and Famine has my vote as one of the 5 best cards in the deck alongside Hokori, which you also refuse to play (and which I'd argue is the best card - along with Elesh Norn and Primeval Titan - by a fair margin). These 4 cards make up the backbone of my deck. They provide powerful ways to create horribly unbalanced board states, and in the right combination/situations, each one can completely lock your opponent out of the game and earn straight concessions as early as turn 3-5 (with good ramping). To me, everything else in the deck is fluff. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it is completely useless, but it is there to stall until these cards get online. This is slightly less true of Knight of the Reliquary, which is obviously just insane and sometimes takes games away by itself.
Brooding Saurion is too slow. I've been playing homeward path, and it is just better. It is easier to find and doesn't take up as much of a card slot since it taps for mana. If you're having trouble with Voltron generals, I'd run more spot removal rather than cards like Eesha, that arent really good against anything else.
Regarding Brooding Saurian: Yeah, way too easily counterable against the decks who are stealing our things. Also, a 4/4 vanilla against every other deck. I used to run him in my old multiplayer meta, and even then he wasn't something greatly relied on. The land is much more versatile and suits competitive play better, especially since we have two ways of finding it if needed.
Regarding cards I've previously cut: Most of all, I'm concerned about topdecking late-game cards in the early game. Mulling away Iona/Norn/Titan in my opening hand and drawing them again in the first couple of turns hurts (excepts for those times when I blank my opponent's turn 1 Thought Seize or Probe, of course...). I've really minimized the number of those cards to great effect, I'd say, and most of my draws are cards that put immediate pressure on the board state and/or can answer other cards in the meta.
Then again, I'd be blatantly lying to you all if I said that high CMC cards can never cut it in the French meta. Evergreen plays around counters and ramps consistently to 6+ mana plays in the early game very consistently. I watched Abnormality's Azusa take a set against Edric with cards like Avenger of Zendikar and Rampaging Baloths. Some decks can get away with running nothing but planeswalkers as their threats and resolve them without running any counter backup. It's a beautiful thing to witness.
Still, I'm wary. I don't have the discard insurance that black does. I don't have the superior ramp game that Azusa does. I don't have access to all the best removal like 5 color good stuff does--so those decks are exceptional. Is Sisay exceptional? Yes, certainly. But...
There's no confusion as to why we're seeing Edrics and Jenaras and Geists and Elf balls and Isamaru's ruling the top 8 lists; they curve super aggressively and, to quote something I read on a French forum, "it's like your opponent is playing Vampiric Tutor every single turn." If I'm drawing cards that require me to have my current dorks on the field be living and for me to have certain specific lands in play just to ensure that I MIGHT be able to play them in a couple of turns, then I don't think I'm running the most efficient Sisay.
Take, for example, a hard-fought Clique matchup I played (and won 2-1) yesterday. The only cards of mine that resolved the entire 3 matches were those that were played in the first 3 turns. Literally nothing else could make it (note: okay, so I played Stag on turn 3 one of those games, but my point still stands). It concerns me enough already to have to rely so much on my starting hand to get anywhere against the tier 1 control decks, but when I might have to fear drawing the big guys or the conditional guys that require multiple things in play to maximize their effectiveness? That's proven to be less effective for me in the overall meta.
Stubborn, long-winded qualifiers aside, I'm going to be testing out Sword of Feast and Famine again, in place of Steely Resolve. Don't laugh. =P
If the card proves to me that it can pull its weight on its own merits and without needing to be equipped to a very specific creature that is kind of a sucky topdeck (in my experience), then I might consider putting Hokori back in. But as something that better fills the role of protection than Steely Resolve in that it helps turn all of my dorks into potential badasses (without having to rely on just 2 other equipments and Norn), I think Feast and Famine deserves another chance.
But yeah, I should also note that Sisay often seems to exist to eat counters and removal. I know, that's a completely backwards way of looking at the evolution of the deck in the French meta, but there are those matches where my opponent MUST keep holding back plays in the early game to deal with early (and repeated) Sisays. That's often a win-win for me (as I sneak in all sorts of other annoying creatures), but the point I'm trying to make is that I've really had to adapt the deck to contain more goodstuff to function superbly without Sisay. That's not to say I don't cast her when given the opportunity (I certainly do!), but the fewer specific-attribute cards that really depend on her in the deck, the better.
Though ultimately, I should say that I might be wrong about Hokori! I think I have a trend of rescinding my stances on cards every 3rd post.
I also have a habit of saying "I'm happy with where the deck is right now!" as cards keep coming in and out and new ones keep getting discovered. Fun fact, I have nearly enough cards in my "maaaybe I'll put this back in again someday" pile to make 2 more completely different less optimal Sisay decks.
Also, Dr Plok has endorsed Noxious Revival to me, which I agree would be a great addition. It's on the considerations list, for now, until something proves less useful and a spot opens up.
Oh, and maybe I was too quick to dismiss Gavony Township? I'll keep that in mind in future tests.
Aaaaaaaaand that's enough out of me for one day...
Bleh. I should probably just stop making suggestions since I'm completely unfamiliar with this meta.
I know it's probably unnecessary/useless for you guys, but I'd like to hear an evaluation on Gaea's Herald. I've always considered it as a back-up option if my meta ever gets some really blue-heavy players again. Right now I'm more or less given free reign as my metagame has this ridiculous aversion to counterspells, but I know that won't last forever, especially if I start going to other metagames. I'm currently running Dosan the Falling Leaf and Grand Abolisher to screw over counter-heavy decks, but those seem kind of hit or miss depending on whether I can get them to resolve or not. I'm probably worrying over nothing, but I always have this sort of pseudo-sideboard in the back of my head for when that day comes around again, since I'd been in a blue-heavy EDH format before, and it's annoying to play in.
Also, just throwing out some ideas for ya Riley. I expect most of them to get shot out of the sky, but who knows, a few might stick: Burrenton Forge-Tender, Isao, Enlightened Bushi, Obsidian Acolyte and his sister Crimson Acolyte, Auriok Champion, and good ole Eight-and-a-Half-Tails which never makes the cut for me personally but always seems to come back in whenever I feel hated on too heavily. I'm half tempted to suggest Wilt-Leaf Liege since I know a friend who used to run it, but I know no one in their right mind would touch it with targeted discard.
Maybe you'll find something useful in that pile, I dunno.
Welcome to the thread, Dr Plok! Your opening statements are well said, and definitely reflect your understanding of the deck in a competitive meta.
I've always been known for being able to spot flaws and suggest improvements (as a writer and editor [and judgmental dick], first and foremost), and I'm happy to share all my findings with the community. I saw someone else playing Tithe on Cockatrice recently, and I felt a little proud! Erm, y'know, even if I probably had nothing to do with that, haha.
I'm behind this one for sure. I've yet to test it, but, thinking back, there are many many more scenarios where this would be far more useful than Karmic Guide, so that's come out for Revival. I predict good things with this swap!
Hokori, Dustdrinker
You've definitely captured my issue with cards like this. Though not as volatile as, say, Dosan, it does concern me how (a?)symmetrical it is against MOST Tier 1 decks. There was a point where I ran this on top of Winter Orb because of how thoroughly this effect thrashed all my matchups, but that was pre-French meta. Very few decks are playing tapout, and can get by just fine with 1-2 lands available per turn--better than me, even. I'm still very hesitant about reinstating this card, especially now that I've seen other deck's Winter Orbs really ruin my day.
Boreal Druid
An older version of my deck ran this dork. Although I'm still a fan, I'm pretty comfortable with the number of 1-drop dorks in the deck, and this was one struck me as the weakest (although it's arguable that Arbor Elf is worse, given his potential to sometimes do nothing but be a 1/1).
Gavony Township
This is one that I think I ought to reconsider, although I do question how useful vs. irritating it will be (as a colorless mana source). Certainly, it would improve my control matchups even more, but I don't think I need to dedicate anything else to those matchups as they're already positive. Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture, though. This could just be straight up awesome against a lot of decks, particularly elf ball and Isamaru. I'll give it some more thought.
Rofellos
I think I've just lowered the forest count too much. Oddly, I had a game the other day where I hit a land drop every turn, had Scryb Ranger in play, and yet had not a single Forest in play by turn 5. That's an extreme example, but I'd say that I average 1-3 forests per game. Looking back, Rofellos has only rarely ever factored into my casting Norn or Iona, so I'm just not sold on his being needed in the deck anymore. No doubt, he helps with things like equipment costs, though. I'm not entirely sure, but my gut tells me that he doesn't belong anymore.
Primevil Titan
I do love me some LD and this guy is the cream of the crop in dashing my opponent's hopes and making the game very lopsided. But again, I think he would just improve matchups I'm already in favor of winning, particularly non-control matchups. Another extreme example time: in one game, I drew Norn turn 1 and Sun Titan on turn 2. Fortunately I was playing against a Mono Green deck, but this is no less maddening. The more high cmc guys I have in a deck that doesn't ramp to its fullest (and whose design has gradually and surely shifted away from that model), the sadder I am. As crazy as it sounds, I think Primeval Titan is just Win More for this deck... or win less, if he clogs my hand. Ha, things sure were different when we had Sol Ring and friends. A few turn 2 Prime Times were enough to make him a staple, for sure.
Sword of Feast and Famine
Trying it out for now, seems "okay" again so far. This card didn't blow me away before, but I'm trying to assess it fairly this time around. We'll seeee~
Beast Within
This card was definitely giving me a rough time when I ran it. I do love that I can kill anything (even land!), but often I was giving my opponent bigger creatures than even they ran, and dealing with their permanent just meant I'd be taking 3 damage every turn until the mid to late game. But now that you mention it, this is probably better than Condemn. I'll definitely consider that as I continue testing Condemn.
Steely Resolve
In all likelihood, I'll end up finding room for this card again. It's one of those odd looking cards to the uninitiated, but it really is quite amazing in Sisay. Definitely, calling Soldier before playing Sisay is a fantastic plan, and much much stronger than Elixir ever was for me.
What about Tariff and Condemn?
Tariff in particular has been really good to me, especially in my Edric testing. It's also a way to catch Geist off guard, make your opponent Sac their just-cast Thrun or another bomb they thought they could get away with, and, generally speaking, it's just another good way to deal with generals that are about to kill you if you let your opponent untap. Probably the biggest rookie mistake I've seen in watching games on Cockatrice is underestimating the power of resolved generals and doing something else when you had removal in hand. Tons of cheap removal is so very necessary, and we have Edric to thank for that (though removing Zur and Rafiq and anyone else immediately is really important, too). Also, Tariff doesn't target, so it can't be redirected. So, yay for that.
Bleh. I should probably just stop making suggestions since I'm completely unfamiliar with this meta.
Ha, your opinions are always welcome. Unless you're suggesting Autumn Willow or Daughter of Autumn ahahha.. because I've already tried those.
I know it's probably unnecessary/useless for you guys, but I'd like to hear an evaluation on Gaea's Herald
I used to run this along with Dosan, mainboard, before Grand Abolisher came out and before this deck was made for dueling. It was great, then! There was no doubt that my Spike-y playgroup would present blue players to me every time I sat down. But presently, it's not necessary, and probably the wrong sort of card for the deck philosophically. Having to depend on that to resolve in order to work your way up to high CMC legends or combos is not viable for G/W in the French meta, sadly. Also, mono blue has a very difficult time against my deck in the OP, so no additional hate is needed.
I like this card, actually. Not sure where or how I'd fit it in, but "uncounterable" on a pretty much unblockable creature for 3 mana is nothing to sneeze at.
Again, supposing a shift in red, this would absolutely go in. I've even considered it presently, just given how much burn-heavy decks effect Sisay already. Definitely on the "if the the meta demands it" list.
There was a time where I criticized him for his double white (in a deck that wanted all the green ever to maximize Rofellos into Miyojin), but that's not a valid criticism now. What concerns me more than ever is the high cost associated with his protection, and the order in which he's likely to appear (that is, AFTER Sisay has been cast), which is completely backwards. I think, more than likely, he would just be there to trade with my opponent's 2/2 in the early game, and hamper me too much in the late game relative to Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper.
Hmmmm, 4 drops are pretty much dedicated to Sisay or other "OMG" cards (Linvala, Thrun, Ranger). I like it, but I think it would be better suited in a similar sort of Teeg build. Competing with Sisay and those others is tough.
Alright! One of these days I need to update the first couple of posts. The card explanations and "consideration cards" are way outdated by now. In the near future, I'll get around to it. Also need to upload/reformat Merdock's new list.
I think you should look at Rofellos again. he is by far the best ramper you have in your deck, or at least has the potential to be. With a forced high curve, by virtue of legendary bombs - tutorable ramp is always a good thing. If need be, add one or two forests back into the deck - I think 34 lands is a little light anyways.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
36 including the two Legendaries, which has been pretty good to me in recent testing with the occasional freak "WHERE ARE MY LANDS??" games. I seem to have more freak "Whoa, deck, way too many lands" games, though, even at 36.
There's just so little that I'm ramping up to anymore, y'know? Especially that requires a lot of Green. It has the potential to put out a turn 3 Thrun, but then that would happen with any dork.
I'll give the deck some time without Rofellos, and if it turns out I'm not casting Norn or having enough spare mana for other things in the future, then I'll probably add him back in. He's a banned general for good reasons, but my deck is sporting very few of those reasons. Though recasting Sisay in the mid-to-late game may be reason enough. We'll see.
EDIT: Why have I never considered Mayor of Avabruck? Anyone else tried him out?
Ha, your opinions are always welcome. Unless you're suggesting Autumn Willow or Daughter of Autumn ahahha.. because I've already tried those.
Never fear, I'm not quite THAT stupid. Besides Jasmine Boreal is a far superior card to either of those. I mean, she has red hair. You gotta have red hair. Oh, and Sir Shandlar of Eberyn because... uhh... his flavor text is kinda like Guy Fawkes? I guess?
Well, I was never one to advocate having 8.5 tails replace Mommy or Safekeeper but simply to supplement them as part of the protection package. I find personally that I have far too many games where I'm playing a naked Sisay and/or Teeg and hoping for the best which, generally, doesn't end all that well. As aforementioned I play in a much more casual metagame, so I could probably get away with the high cost of protection, but I just wanted to kind of vomit him out there as a reminder that he does, in fact, still exist.
Admittedly I've never been that impressed with the notion of Obsidian Acolyte either merely because he seems so specialized, but I do think it would be a decent metagame choice, especially if black removal becomes highly prevalent. Admittedly he'd be of limited value at best if most of the spot removal is sac-effects, but nevertheless I just wanted to mention that he's been something I've considered for quite a while. I never put him in, but it was always something to ponder.
My reasoning for Wilt-Leaf Liege was more to proactively punish discard effects but, then again, this is highly dependent on what type of discard you face. If it's targeted/random, it's probably less useful than my metagame's more indiscriminate preferences, such as Mind Sludge, Persecute, and etcetera which admittedly are much more exploitable in that regard. I would've suggested such gems as Dodecapod, Obstinate Baloth, and Sand Golem, but WLL seems at least vaguely useful outside of said effect whereas the other options are laughable at best.
I guess I still have to learn the way of the Steely Resolve. Soldier? Hmm, an oddly specific choice, but if you want a shrouded Sisay, I can see that being worthwhile. Heck, I can even see naming Cleric to be a decent option because a lot of our key cards are clerics (Mother of Runes, Devoted Caretaker, Fiend Hunter, Benevolent Bodyguard, Grand Abolisher, Leonin Relic-Warder). Elf/Druid/Monk... slightly less useful, but definitely something to consider. Human of course causes the greatest blanket effect. I'm still trying to squeeze the most out of this card on the few times I get it, but it's definitely a learning experience.
Finally, I'd have to concur with Riley that with my change from +1 land effects to mana dorks, I'm definitely underwhelmed by Rofellos' performance of late. Since the mana ramp is more dependent on its mana dorks survival and Gaea's Cradle, as well as the heavy focus on G/W dual-lands, I typically find Rofellos tapping for 3 under the best of circumstances, Prime-Time shenanigans notwithstanding. Of course my Gaea's Cradle tends to survive longer given my meta, so Rofellos typically doesn't do much except "win more" for me or act as another mana dork. Early game, he's no different from a mana dork for me. An admittedly decent one, but still about the same value as Bloom Tender (which I do run), arguably even less since he can't tap for W. Mid-game when I have an active Sisay, I typically have higher priority targets to search for than something which doesn't do anything until the next turn (assuming he survives, which is far from certain). Late game... I have the Cradle, which is far more effective. I mean, he does his job, but it's not really as stellar as it used to be (when I ran Cultivate and Kodama's Reach and etcetera). Generally, he's about as amazing as Priest of Titania, another card I added which doesn't work for me as well as hoped either.
I do see your point in the difference of 1 mana vs 2 mana dorks, Riley. Of my 2 mana options (Roffy, Priest, and Bloom Tender), the only one I'm ever really happy to see is Bloom Tender mostly because it (usually) taps for W. Honestly I'm much more excited to see an Avacyn's Pilgrim in my opening hand than any of the other three. Turn 1 mana dorks lead to some pretty stupid turn 2 plays (I had a T1 fetch > Savannah > Avacyn, T2 Forest Mommy, Safekeeper, Lawnmower which is really, really stupid. Turn 3 Cradle... well, I think you can see where THAT game went). Turn 2 mana dorks... bleh.
@d3pthcharge12: I hate discard-style decks with all my heart and soul, more than I hate counter decks. My friend once built a serious Nath discard/aggro deck that ended up being a very troublesome matchup for me. He had uncanny luck with getting Hymn to Tourach in his opener and sending something important of mine to the graveyard--even if that "something" was just my lands to enable me to cast anything. Rargh.
That said, random discard thankfully doesn't make up any significant portion of the French meta. You really only ever encounter Duress, Thoughtseize, Distress, Addle, and other such targeted spells (with the exception, of course, of Hymn to Tourach). Anti-discard specific cards just aren't in high enough demand to be included in the deck.
Nevertheless, Wilt-Leaf Leige is pretty awesome on its own merits. I've spectated a lot of games lately on Cockatrice where mono-red decks just blow out.. everything. Every Tier 1 deck that they encounter. This is surely something that will catch on, as 95% of the creatures you encounter in the meta have 2 or less toughness; Grim Lavamancer is one of the scariest cards in the meta for tier 1 decks. Giving all of our creatures more toughness (and more attack, of course) could be as powerful of an effect as shroud vs. some scary decks for us. I think I ought to seriously consider a spot for Liege.
Turn 1 mana dorks lead to some pretty stupid turn 2 plays (I had a T1 fetch > Savannah > Avacyn, T2 Forest Mommy, Safekeeper, Lawnmower which is really, really stupid. Turn 3 Cradle
Haha these are my favorite games, a couple of dorks, protection, and drawing Gaea's Cradle right off the bat. Almost impossible to lose.
@Dr Plok: Nevermore is one of my favorite kind of cards, but seems to really hearken back to the styling of the old deck. I think that, when resolved, it can certainly win games, but it's just not versatile enough to warrant inclusion in a format that demands cards that have tons of versatility, cards that can make an impact regardless of board state or opponent, regardless of what turn they're played.
But I may be wrong about this particular card, even if it doesn't really compliment our gameplan. There's no doubt that all-in style decks with a strong gameplan (again, I fearfully give props to Iname) are terrifyingly good against decks without counter magic, so Nevermore might be a good "blue" kind of spell that ought to improve some matchups.
Still, I've really de-emphasized the enchantment package of the deck, and I think it's for the better. As much as I used to love cards like Sterling Grove and Idyllic Tutor, they didn't really do anything when played. That is, my turn was usually wasted playing those cards, and Grove in particular threw me off tempo more often than not. The current build would have me drawing Nevermore randomly more often than not, and I don't think it's a particularly good topdeck past turn 2. That it's a legless version of a better card doesn't help my overall impression of it either.
I'm not entirely certain, but I'm leaning towards keeping that card out of this version of Sisay. I'd say that a more combo-focused, enchantment toolbox style Sisay can justify running it, though (a version that still runs Living Plane, eg).
Mayor may warrant testing, particularly given my "red hates us so much" musing above. Giving a toughness boost to a good number of our creatures may prove extremely backbreaking against not only red decks but any aggro deck that relies on the early game to sneak damage in against Sisay. I'll give it some thought.
Hokori Hokori... what am I going to do with you, Hokori?
Glad I could offer a useable idea. Also, I too have found Sterling Grove to be...meh in playtesting, so just my two cents there.
If you're seriously considering pump effects, I found some interesting options you might want to consider (dependent on the prevalence of Pyroclasm-type effects, which make these options pointless at best). Of course I'm not sure the kinds of cards you're facing, so I'm just kind of guessing here.
As far as cheaper static pumps, you have the elf lords which would work for a decent chunk of the mana dorks and Fauna Shaman, you also have some random options in Veteran Armorer, and Juniper Order Advocate (a card I hadn't ever heard of until today and seems almost ridiculously useful). As far as non-creatures, there are of course all the anthems, and I know a friend of mine has this unhealthy love for Spidersilk Armor, so once again I don't know how useful any of those options are, but I thought they might be of consideration.
If you're really worried about red, though, I'd think outright anti-red hate would do better than something as indirect as pump effects, but this would of course be dependent on if the metagame is saturated enough to justify running silver bullets of that nature.
Let me know how Mayor/Wilt-Leaf turn out for you. I'm curious myself.
First, I want to announce that I'm working on a mega thread for the French meta, a place dedicated to the rules, ban list, tier lists, sample decks, meta guide, and tournament results. I'm in the process of picking the brains of multiple informed individuals about the tier list (Edric is in Tier S for "Stupid").
Alright, the 36 lands experiment has lead me to the following conclusion:
RUN 37 LANDS
That is all.
But seriously, I was having just one too many games in my recent tests where I'd have to mull aggressively to get more than 2 lands in my opener (and have to keep <5 cards in hand). This is in contrast to when I ran 37 lands, when this almost never happened. One land shouldn't make that much of a difference, but it seems to. For land 37, I'm going with Gavony Township again.
Also, re-testing of Crop Rotation is going very well. I stuck in Sejiri Steppe for the first time ever, and the combination of these two cards with a Great Sable Stag in play won me a game against Edric. My opponent eventually got his draw engine going and kept managing to dig for green creatures to chump Stag, but he was at just 3 life. Also, he kept keeping up 1-to-1 with my threats with his counterspells. Topdecking Rotation allowed me to swing past his only green blocker for game. But yeah, even having the opportunity to have Crop'd for a manland seemed good.
Also, seeing all the various theft effects come down in tonight's games (often multiple effects per game) really makes me confident about keeping Homeward Path in the deck. I'm not convinced that Path is good enough for any other deck, but Sisay is really dependent on her utility creatures sticking around for several turns compared to other decks (that either use their utility creatures to do something amazing on the spot or whose greatest attribute is "evades").
Noxious Revival only came up in one game, but it allowed me to replay a Swords to Plowshares vs. Edric. I think that's probably reason enough to run that card.
I managed to win a game against a resolved Back to Basics which I couldn't answer. That was a good one.
I had a game with a turn 1 Mother of Runes and a turn 2 Sylvan Safekeeper. My creatures were there to stay and eventually served as finishers when Norn hit the field. Never underestimate the shroud creatures.
Condemn also tested well when that came up. Seems like it would be relevant against pretty much every single Tier 1 deck we'll face. I'm feeling pretty comfortable with that. I had an opener with Swords to Plowshares and Condemn, and my opponent had a turn 1 Gitaxian Probe. Seeing that made him not even attempt to cast Edric until around turn 6 or so, which allowed me to build my hand and force his counters. Great game for me.
Still, the thought keeps crossing my mind that I might be better off with Condemn and Tariff as Wrath of God and Day of Judgment..
@d3pthcharge: I don't like Armorer or Order Advocate enough to include them in the deck (and especially not Spidersilk). I'd rather have something more threatening/versatile and with itself a bigger butt to survive burn. If I do go this route in response to a rise in red decks, I think Wilt-Leaf is our best bet. Thank you for the suggestions, though.
Red hate is extremely narrow overall, unlike the ostensible "anti-blue" cards; Thrun can't be targeted by any deck and can regenerate, Stag can't be targeted by a large majority of the removal we'll face in the meta and is pretty much unblockable against a lot of great decks, and Scryb Ranger has evasion and synergizes with our general. Anti-red cards tend to be just anti-red cards. Auriok Champion, again, would be the one I'd consider first because of its versatility against multiple decks (and, surely, its capacity to improve my matchup vs aggro decks in general).
As much as I love the idea of Mayor, I'm not sure where I'm going to fit him in. I ended up not finding room for Sword of Feast and Famine, too. Honestly, I'd love to find room for Mirran Crusader, too. There are so many strong g/w aggro cards available, but maybe they're better suited for Teeg (who wouldn't be running all of the high cmc Legends, I think).
I'll update the list tomorrow and re-evaluate what ought to stay. Off to bed!
EDIT: Okay, I'm winning tons of games that Mox Dimaond never would have factored into, and I've been fortunate enough not to topdeck it mid-to-late game. That said, I DON'T want to topdeck it mid-to-late game. For now, I'll refill that spot with Rofellos, who will almost certainly draw removal or a counter if nothing else just because he's friggin' Rofellos and everyone expects Sisay to play Eldrazi or other overcosted Legends (but yeah, even a small boost towards resolving Norn is important, considering she wins me most of my games). He can only work to my advantage and isn't a terrible topdeck. If I end up feeling meh about him again, I'll probably slot in Sword of Feast and Famine.
I've updated my decklist in the OP. I'm feeling like adding more nonbasics now that Back to Basics is banned... This might be the right time to reconsider Yavimaya Hollow.
EDIT 2: OH GOD. Or maybe 36 is the magic number for lands after all? I had 2 games in a row against Gaka where I was getting land-flooded. Crazy luck that he got land-flooded significantly worse in game 2, but still. If I do lower the count again, I hate to put myself in a position where I must resolve Land Tax/Tithe/Wayfarer/Life from the Loam or lose more, though. Hmmm. I'll give myself some more tests at 37 lands before reverting back to 36 too quickly.
EDIT 3: Currently (re)testing the following cards:
I've been looking at Condemn and Tariff with extreme scrutiny lately, as these are by far my worst removal options. As much as I'd love to try Day of Judgment and Wrath of God in their spots, I have a feeling they're just not going to suit the deck. Too often I find myself wishing I had a more versatile removal option, and now that my deck is more combat oriented than it once was, I think the 3/3 creature drawback from Beast Within won't be that big of a deal to me anymore. Gideon's Lawkeeper has also been fantastic for me, so the addition of Harrier should serve me well, too. Shrouding my repeatable answers who eventually turn into finishers is this deck's bread and butter.
Also, I have a major problem with not getting answers to artifacts/enchantments that are going to completely utterly destroy me next turn unless I topdeck one of my 5 cards that can deal with them, whether that's in the form of a mana rock getting them to their general faster (Godo, Zur, Iname) or Sword or Jitte that's about to destroy me or a Survival of the Fittest or whatever the hell else, there are tons of reasons to turn every single one of your creatures into a Harmonic Sliver. I'd recommend giving Aura Shards another shot.
Mayor just looks amazing. We'll see how he tests, but I predict good things.
As for Birthing Pod, I'm not really that thrilled to see it when I draw it (and not necessarily just because it's a worse Survival). I doubt I'll miss it, but it'll remain close-by in my "maybe" pile. I've flopped on Revoker several times now and often because I find him too reactive for my tastes (and for the way this deck has evolved). He's not bad at all, but seems lackluster for me. If he's played better for you, keep him in.
I still need to find room for Steely Resolve again. Playing against my friend's Red/White deck made me miss the added shroud effect more intensely than most. Also makes me wish I could run as many Gaddock Teegs as he runs board wipes, lol. I'll probably take out Rofellos again. A few more test games really made him a lousy topdeck and not even worth being cast.
Before I get into what I'm actually here to talk about, I'd like to weigh in on a couple disputes.
1. Noxious Revival is not a good card. I understand that I was one of the people that wanted more ways to get things back from the graveyard before, but the fact is that this card is not really what you want to be doing. Having this in your opening hand is terrible. It's situational, awkward, and occasionally useless. I would much rather have another good card (of which there are many)
2. 36 lands is fine. I would run more mana dorks over lands if you're having mana trouble. I've never had a serious problem with 36 (aside from the occasional mana screw, which happens to every deck)
3. Mayor of Avabruk is bad, especially in Riley's list. It doesnt do anything the deck is trying to do, and it's barely playable in standard (and even draft, where it is super high variance). Generally an overrated card, and doesnt fit into the plan of accelerating out sisay and winning with norn or (for me) hokori. I found it particularly funny when someone mentioned Mayor being good against red decks for the pump. Hilarious. Mayor is absolutely terrible against red decks. The only reason to play the card is for the draw-go matchup, and I think you can do better things there.
4. Birthing pod is totally sweet and I would never cut it, though it is possible that it is better in my deck than yours because I run more value creatures on the curve. The fact that I can pod an elf into stoneforge, and stoneforge into eternal witness to return stoneforge already has me sold.
5. I am still absolutely dumbfounded by how much you guys seem to consider sword of feast and famine only a fringe playable in this deck. Yes it is better than sword of fire and ice. No, it is not even slightly close. Yes, pro-blue is nice, but the sword you actually want to connect with is SoFaF. Connecting with it corrects all of your lost tempo from the entire game, and in conjunction with Hokori, wins games on the spot. Not playing this card is a serious mistake. In conjunction with this, I've found that the "equipment" subtheme of my deck has been fantastic and always overperformed. Being able to tutor for equipment that just kills people is fantastic, and the toolbox has been very powerful. Specifically, I'd recommend this set of cards to just about anyone:
Stoneforge Mystic
Stonehewer Giant
Steelshaper's Gift
Lightning Greaves
Skullclamp
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Feast and Famine
It may seem like overkill to play all of these, but I assure you they're all incredible and have never let me down. Stoneforge Mystic in particular is one of the deck's best cards, but the rest are all very very high on the list as well, and cards that I have never considered cutting after I played with them a bit.
6. Hokori is a must. I know i've said this many many times, but I'm here to say it again. Hokori is one of the best cards in the deck, if not the best card. No, it is not always ideal, but the idea of playing sisay and a deck full of other tutor effects is that you can search up what you need with a reasonable amount of consistency. I tutor up Hokori more than any other card by a landslide (second is stoneforge), and even if you play a meta full of draw-go decks, hokori is still worth it as a bullet for your other matchups. This card wins games. With Cradle, Sword of Feast and Famine, and many of the decks other effects, the effect isnt anywhere close to symmetric, and Hokori benefits from the deck's protection effects in that you are able to protect it easily.
7. Gavony Township? Seriously? I ask you to consider any of the "slow" cards on my list over this card, because if you're townshipping multiple times in a game, you're doing something very wrong. This deck should have a LOT to do in the later turns! Townshipping random dorks to win is depressing, and should not be even a Plan X. I think playing this card is essentially hoping that, for the 1 game in 1000 that it is useful, it is good enough to merit how awkward it is in a deck full of G mana dorks and WW creatures.
8. @Riley, I disagree a great deal with what you've done to this deck's manabase. I think that you were correct before in your assertion that tapped lands are not good for the deck, and I've been very happy with my manabase for the deck for quite some time (list to come shortly)
9. Let me know how Eight and a Half Tales tests, if anyone tries it. It seems solid, though the fact that it is legendary is totally irrelevant, since I can't imagine ever tutoring for it (unless I'm out of targets). It may be good enough just as a card though.
10. Primeval Titan > Sun Titan. Not close. If you like Sun Titan (and I think you do, Riley, since you still play it), you should try Primeval Titan. The lands it tutors (at least the first time) are generally very strong, and its ability to make the game lopsided, as you note, is insane. I wouldnt suggest cutting sun titan (I happily run both), but I'd run primeval titan.
11. On the deck's curve: I think Riley's list has gotten almost too streamlined. Your curve is so low it's almost concerning, and while I love casting cheap spells, I think it's important for this deck to play the most powerful cards in order to beat the draw-go decks. Look at the strength of G/W Maverick in Legacy as compared to zoo. The decks are the same except that Maverick plays insane threats (elspeth, stoneforge) that need to be countered and makes its opponent play reactively. That's what this deck needs to do. It has a must-counter general, and should play a bunch of must-counter threats to go with it. You mention that sometimes you draw a hand with a couple of 6 drops and it sucks. Yeah, it does. It also doesnt happen very often. Sometimes you have a 6 drop and 2 ramp spells and it's totally fine. You mulligan sometimes. It's fine. I'm willing to bet that the amount that a deck with a few more 6 drops has to mulligan in EDH as compared to one with a few less is about as close to negligible as possible.
Now that I've finished my rants (apologies for the tone, if it offended anyone, just speaking my mind), here's my list (SB and Maybeboard are cards in consideration): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sisay-edh-3/
Also, as a bonus, here's my list of cards I believe are absolute staples in the deck in the sense that I will absolutely never cut them ever at any point in the future ever ever ever. These are cards that have never disappointed, and that I believe it is a mistake not to run. Personal favorites, like Stonehewer Giant (which I think everyone should try) and "Powerful cards" (like Survival of the Fittest, which has disappointed me) do not make the list because they are great but not essential. What is on this list is essential. I believe it to be the core of the Sisay deck.
Stoneforge Mystic
Eladamri's Call
Steelshaper's Gift
Green Sun's Zenith
Lightning Greaves
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sylvan Library
Bloom Tender
All the 1 drop accelerants (Fyndorn Elves, Llanowar Elves, Birds of Paradise, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl) and to a lesser extent, Joraga Treespeaker, which has been awkward at times, but probably good enough to merit inclusion
Mother of Runes
Benevolent Bodyguard
Umezawa's Jitte
Harmonic Sliver
Lignify
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Nature's Claim
Oust
Elesh Norn
Sun Titan
Primeval Titan
Hokori
Saffi Eriksdotter
Gaddock Teeg
Knight of the Reliquary
Gaea's Cradle
All the obvious untapped G/W duals.
And, of course, the Captain Herself.
I'd be happy to debate any of the above cards, simply because I'm that confident in all of them. There are obviously situations in which any one of them is not optimal, but I think they all do more than enough for the deck to merit inclusion in any list.
To a lesser extent:
Enlightened Tutor
Worldly Tutor
I think Isao is very interesting, and I'm with Riley in that I have no idea where in the deck it would really fit, but it definitely seems like a cool card that's worth considering.
Hey, Merdock! Righteously indignant as always I see, despite our lists being like 12 cards apart from each other. =P
But no doubt, those differences are key; I play substantially more control and you play more aggro. I think they're both ostensibly valid approaches to the deck, but I feel a lot more comfortable facing other top tier decks with more control cards, and experience has taught me that you can never have too much control if this deck ever wants to top 8.
That said, my friend's R/W deck legit whooped up on my Edric deck (cobbled together from all the best lists, no missing cards, tested heavily, and in none of the games were my hands or draws considered bad). My friend had so much spot removal that it invalidated all of my early plays, and his every card was a must-counter (or had a great ETB ability that made it stupid for me to bounce). Where I'm going with this is that his curve was pretty high relative to the way I build my decks and relative to what you typically see in the French meta. He had all of our white bombs plus some red ones plus an Insurrection (that actually won him a game) plus multiple sweeps. He had so much control in the early game that he ensured a late game in all of our matches. The one game in the set that I won, he was land-screwed and made a play mistake that put him too far behind.
The point I'm trying to make is that, without sufficient control in the early game to deal with S Tier Edric or other comparably powerful decks in the upper echelon, no other card in your deck matters. Building a winning deck in the French meta requires a ton of redundancy to ensure that you see removal and other disruptive cards in your opener. Even at my current number of removal options, I can get blown out by decks that can puke out their general faster than I can do anything but play a mana dork or two (and hope that removal is on top). This is why Ezuri has rarely poked his heads into the top 8s of tournaments lately (and why he's been replaced largely with Rhys); its lack of removal makes it a cake-walk for better decks and every deck that's been adding more removal to survive the top generals.
I think that the only way you can justify having multiple cards in any non-Azusa deck that're more than 4 mana in this meta is by having a ton of counters, spot removal, board wipes, or some/all of the above. And then, you have to expect the same from your opponents if they're piloting top decks and have also been adjusting to a meta so changed by Edric; you can't always lean on your mana dorks who are perfectly valid removal targets. I've found that playing Tithe and Land Tax and even Loam (in addition, of course, to all the disruptive/removal cards) are a necessary edge towards getting to my bombs in enough time before I get blown out by better, faster, more disruptive decks.
Again, back to the anecdote with my buddy's disruptive heavy/high-curved deck, he did play Stonehewer Giant and most of the equipments you love, to great effect. But that effect was enabled by the fact that I was forced to blow all my removal on his earlier plays, most of which were murdering everything I played at instant speed. I also got wrecked by Cataclysm, which is.. worth noting, since that card has come up in Sisay discussions before. So yeah, Giant is a fantastic finisher for an aggro gameplan, but I think he has to fit a certain build if ever you want to see him do his thing.
All that said, I've decided to give you, Merdock, a Christmas gift:
Well, the cycle lands are a gift to myself, but the others I'm doing just for you. ;P
If I'm being totally honest about Gavony, 4 mana to pump my dorks is pretty depressing, and indeed this deck already boasts a fine matchup vs. counter-heavy decks. Colorless mana lands with only decent abilities don't belong. They must be amazingly useful like Homeward Path to be in this deck.
I suppose that a good lesson I ought to have learned by now is that, just because it tests well doesn't mean it's worth one of the precious 99 spots. "Tests well" and "compliments our gameplan" are two very different criteria, and I musn't keep taking steps to turn this deck into a Blue-less version of Jenara. Sisay is definitely a genral that warrants building around more heavily than most. Though brash, I do appreciate you keepin' it real, Merdock. I'll give Hokori his fair due in the French meta.
On a few closing notes, Survival is amazingly busted, but understandably less so in your build. As long as it's a legal card, I'll be rocking Loyal Retainers and Iona/Norn and stealing games on turn 3-4. But even without that ridiculousness, Survival gets me.. anything. For 1G. I'd say that it has Mana Drain status in that you absolutely run it if you're in the colors, so I'd argue that it belongs on your list. The only other thing I find disagreeable is Saffi, but that's a matter of deck style and she's obviously still one of the best Legends we could play.
Also, the CITP lands (particularly the sac ones) keep doing very well for me, accelerating me into broken plays a turn quicker, most of which usually net me card advantage (I love this deck). Steppe isn't always great, but as long as I have Crop Rotation in there, I think I'd regret not having Steppe. I'm also very pleased with the Manlands, but again, different style of decks. And Planeswalkers in a great deck can just wreck us. Let me just say that I have a newfound respect for Chandra Nalaar....
EDIT: I'm a really big fan of Utopia Sprawl, having played it in a different deck way back when on top of dorks. I agree about Joraga being probably the least auto-includey of the dorks you listed. I'll consider that as a swap in the future.
EDIT 2: Wow... I've somehow managed to leave Tectonic Edge out of my list in the OP for the past 2 months, despite having run the card in my deck for that long. Whoops. It probably goes without saying, but the card has tested very well for me. Taking out a bi-colored deck's only duel mana source can be crippling for their entire gameplan, even on turn 4.
The CITP tapped lands are testing decently, but Merdock may be right about the previous mana base (that is, the base he's using) being the best for Sisay. Even though I have a greater emphasis on getting to the mid-game and being a control freak, it still hurts to miss a turn-whatever-play because the next land in my hand comes into play tapped. Thicket and Steppe are likely to come out for basics, while I still like the Sac lands.
I've taken out Harm's Way and Devoted Caretaker, because they're kind of crappy and narrow (and never really factored into most of my games, wins or losses). For the time being, I'm testing Wrath of God and Day of Judgment in their slots, two cards that could have turned around countless games. This should definitely improve our matchups vs.. everything? But really, vs. Animar, Geist, Edric, Doran, Lyzolda, and any other creature deck that can go nuts before I hit my magical 7 mana spot for Norn winning.
What else?
I recently cut the Moxen from my Edric deck as they proved to be both terrible topdecks and too risky to go all in on in the early game vs. other tier 1 decks. I'm even wary about the mana elves, given the way the meta has been adapting to murder Edric on sight with efficient spot removal. Unless Edric can get the draw engine going, he's hurting for land drops so bad, and has one helluva time getting back to 5 for a hopeful recasting (at which point you want more, for counter backup). Sylvan Safekeeper is the best card in that deck, I"m tellin' ya. And yeah, the mana elves help get him back there, but they're otherwise useless in combat, where so many good stuff decks are resolving threats and smashing your face handily. Call me silly, but I've been extending these thoughts to Sisay as well. I love me some mana dorks and making crazier plays happen a turn sooner, but I'm going to be looking at them with more scrutiny in the coming months, as they're still crappy topdecks (and very vulnerable), equipment in play or not.
Haven't played a ton of games with Sisay lately, but there was one game where she became active vs. a control deck, and getting Hokori was the best tutor target for sure. That's a good sign.
I'll probably miss Land Tax and Tithe the most, but I won't miss them not activating for maximum value. If I seem more land-screwed in the future, I'll play 'em again.
Hokori just isn't cutting it for me. I'll keep him in mind as I test more, but I just don't find myself wanting him nearly often enough, if ever. The same can be said for the tappers. They're pretty okay-ish. Terrible top decks, but good for getting me to the mid-game. Anti-synergy with my wraths, though, and hard to keep any mana open in this deck that still likes to tap out often.
I found myself just shy of having enough spot removal cards to deal with Edric again in recent testing, so Harm's Way is back in until something better comes out (also versatile against some of my weaker matchups, like any deck with red). Sylvan Scrying can get me manlands or Ancient Tomb, which means it's not a completely horrible topdeck (unlike some of the recently cut cards). Everything else is self-explanatory.
Wraths are testing well. I've spectated some super explosive Animar and Rhys games recently, and often the only thing I can see that would beat them are wraths, something most decks still aren't running. Glad to have them.
In other news, I finally caught up with Sessstreets and got my custom art Sisay! =D
I'm a huge huge fan of the card! Glowrider was one that I considered when I was tinkering with the idea of making this a very stax style deck, but at 3 mana and being pretty irrelevant in combat (not to mention, I couldn't tutor it with Sisay) it obviously never made the cut.
But man! 2 mana, FIRST STRIKE (lol, hi Geist), and tutorable with Sisay is a fantastic hate-bear for the deck. It's one of those cards that will shine whether it's drawn early or late, forcing your opponent to slow down his plays to have the right amount of mana open to counter your threats. Or just to have the right amount of mana open to play equipments, removals, etc, and that one mana difference is so substantial for most decks, not just control. I'm definitely going to be finding room for her.
Here's hoping she's not a 20+ dollar rare (she's not mythic?)... but if the Rumor Mill buzz is any indication, Standard and Legacy players alike may be getting a set. Good card is good.
But, as always, there's the challenge of finding a space for her. I suppose that if Clamp has lackluster testing again, that's probably the most likely spot. /shrug
EDIT: OH GOD, okay. I remember why I added Land Tax and Tithe to begin with. With 37 lands and some dorks, I miss land drops like crazy, and that kills this deck. In at least half of my test games, I get caught up on 3-4 lands or mana sources, and that's just unacceptable. This is probably the number one killer I see in decks on Cockatrice, idling around that amount of mana (which is really something only red based decks or elf ball can get away with). Again, although both of these cards seem dubious, I think they're musts for my build and have been very good to me, definitely improving the quality of my draws, making sure I have cards in hand, and ensuring land drops. Sorry, Sylvan Scrying and Sword of Feast and Famine. You've got to go. I've done plenty fine without Sword (who really wants Hokori and a much slower meta [and blue] to shine) thus far, and again I don't think I'll be missing it. My apologies to Merdock. Don't hate me!
EDIT 2:
- Skullclamp
- Birthing Pod
- Sejiri Steppe
- Iona, Shield of Emeria
- Crop Rotation
Recent tests have been going very poorly for me. I've been land-screwed (both in the sense of wrong colors and not hitting land drops) and unable to do anything consistent from game to game. This is in stark contrast to earlier iterations of the deck, where at least getting to cast Sisay was a sure thing. I've taken out the 5 above cards that did not have synergy with the deck or were never desired in the meta (Iona, farewell old friend.. you're just totally outclassed by Norn). Clamp and Pod are absolutely nuts, but just are anti-Sisay's game plan. Sparing creatures is not her thing, for any reason. Clamp may find its way back in someday, but for now it's one of the weaker cards, especially relative to the new (re)additions.
I've never played with Elspeth before, but I think she'll be well-suited for the deck. Maybe she'll make me want to have clamp back. We'll see!
Thank you to Khymera for helping me brainstorm, and for Merdock for being ahead of the curve. =P
EDIT 3:
Or maybe I want to run Sword of Feast and Famine over Mirran Crusader? Hm.
Haha, you seem to change your deck a great deal more than you probably need to.
Sword is much better than Elspeth (as in, not close), so I definitely wouldnt add elspeth while removing sword.. Similarly, it seems like you're not treating hokori like the bullet that she is.
I'd also remove Hero of Bladehold. It's been pretty bad for me, and generally doesn't fit the deck's game plan.
Agree with a lot of your other changes. I wouldnt cut skullclamp, but it has been lackluster for me too, so maybe I'm just wrong there. Skullclamp + Elspeth has been kind of sweet for me sometimes.
I'm going to edit my deck a bit more soonish. I played against edric and realized I was having a lot of trouble resolving things like norn b/c of countermagic (which accounted for all of my losses to the deck). I've also found that midrangey crap isn't really helpful, while cards like gaea's herald seem like they'd be good.
It's funny that your deck is becoming more aggressive while mine is now moving towards the straight t3 protected sisay, t4 do stuff plan...
Also, the idea of making this a stax style deck appeals to me. What kinds of cards did you have in mind for that strategy?
With hokori, I actually win a number of games in a stax fashion, so more cards that would complement that would be sweet. Also, Sisay herself is such a nice combination of proactive and hate-tutoring that it seems to fit the bill as both a wincon and support...
Haha, I've got pretty bad intuition about which cards are going to be best in this deck, as she's not exactly the most straight-forward general for the meta. I feel like I have to try everything to really get a handle on how it'll play with Sisay, but often I obviously return to old staples.
I think I could probably get behind swapping Hokori in for Hero of Bladebold, as much as I love the latter. Without running Skullclamp, Hero isn't living up to her full potential and is otherwise awkward on the curve. Making non-flying vanilla guys is, sadly, really irrelevant in the meta, and as a four-drop she's likely to take away Sisay's turn, and I'm kidding myself if I think that my opponent has THAT much countermagic/spot removal that I need yet another must-answer threat that doesn't exactly compliment the rest of the deck.
Hokori, on the other hand, seems to be gaining in value. Increasingly more, I'm seeing wraths played in conjunction with more spot removal in the format, which are especially great against top tier decks such as Edric, Geist, and Animar. These cards aren't so fantastic vs. Karador and Iname, but that's life. Still, keeping my opponent from being able to untap for wrath mana (as he almost certainly sets up with artifacts or something the turn prior) means another opportunity to tutor up Teeg, maybe. When I played this deck in a more casual meta where most decks were ported from multiplayer mainly, this line of play definitely worked out in my favor. I should probably be looking at Hokori as more of a Linvala sort of card in that it's definitely not great all the time, but has it's value at the right moments (still, sadly far far fewer moments in the meta). And hey, I did settle on including Sword of Feast and Famine, so that's something.
It does bother me, however, that he's yet another creature that dies to pyroclasm effects, something else that's, I'd say, become more popular than wraths. As a four-drop, that really sucks. Though it's also a 2-power creature, sometimes I feel like Glissa would be a better hoser to re-include. I can't think of a single deck I've encountered that she wouldn't be relevant against, from destroying something small and nigh-inevitable like Pithing Needle or something that's going to wreck us like Batterskull, she might warrant a second chance more than Hokori in my build. I'll have to think about this a bit more before making a decisions. It's not like any of my decisions are final, as clearly evidenced by this thread! =P
As for more Stax-style cards...
I sat in on a game with Moondust on Cockatrice the other night. He had just brewed up a completely different Sisay deck that was every hate bear and lock-down creature/permanent available, or so I saw. I specifically remember seeing Leonin Arbiter and thinking "Err, don't know if THAT one belongs..." but it was certainly in character with the other cards.
I think that we could both benefit from running Rishdan Port. As far as colorless lands are concerned, this one has proven to be fantastic vs. control and just fantastic otherwise for keeping players a turn away from hitting their magic number. I know that Sisay loves her colors, but this land could well be the key to resolving more threats and for complimenting a more stax-style build. At least in Azusa, anyway, I've seen this card be even more insane with the combination of Vesuva. Port is almost certainly worth finding space for.
Many moons ago, I picked up a Root Maze and an Aura of Silence but never tested either. They seem effective, though. Also, g/w elf-ball is still pretty damn ridiculous (and, of course, Edric), so I think there's a really good case for running Ethersworn Canonist now. I might even try to find room for that one. I played Null Rod for quite some time and was mostly pleased with it. And of course there's Ghostly Prison and Norn's Annex. All of these cards buy you time, and those cards seem to compliment Sisay well, who's a four drop with no immediate impact.
But yeah, I'm still a-okay with casting a turn 3 Sisay if the right conditions are met--namely, Mother of Runes /Sylvan Safekeeper / Steely Resolve / Lightning Greaves are in play--but I'll almost certainly cast her against non-blue decks as soon as I can. It's the blue-theft nonsense that has me otherwise apprehensive about being too hasty with her.
I used to play Gaea's Herald back before using the French rules (but still dueling), and I only rarely encountered scary decks that weren't "Every Counter Spell: The Deck," so she made a helluva lot of sense to run. Regardless of banlists, blue is obviously still really dominant, so she's not necessarily terrible... but still really disappointing against non-blue decks. Having run all the anti-blue hate cards at one point or another (even a certain derpy Centaur), I'd have to recommend steering clear of the very specific hate cards. Something like Grand Abolisher should be plenty, or at least try Insist because it cantrips. I don't even think I've seen Herald run in elf-ball, for what it's worth.
Okay, the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards Ethersworn Canonist in place of Hero of Bladehold.
PS. Boy, how I wish they'd made Grafdigger's Cage a legendary card...
Helvault is fascinating as a tutorable creature removal permanent for Sisay, but at 7 mana to activate... well, we're already not running Predator Flagship. Sure, this one gets around Teeg and exiles rather than destroys, buuuut they can all come back--and there's certainly a fair bit of artifact/enchantment destruction in the meta. Interestingly, it does allow the wraths I run to be more one sided, potentially (though how often do I have SO much artifact removal that I'm able to spare it on my own stuff?). I might be dismissing this too quickly, but I'm pretty sure that I'd rather be running Karn PW if I wanted a removal permanent.
Oh well. It's not everyday we can get a Jitte. And whatever else this set has to spoil, I'm really thankful for Thalia already.
Yeah, I'm quite sure Helvault just isn't making the cut ;-).
Thalia seems good, though I have to wonder if she'll be a lot like Phyrexian Revoker was for me, good but kind of weirdly situational. The fact that she's good against counters and wraths make her an autoinclude though, at least for a solid bit of testing. I have high hopes. Definitely better than dosan.
So cards like Hero of Bladehold and Ranger of Eos I'm losing respect for pretty rapidly. They're just too midrangey for the deck and really don't fit the gameplan. On the other hand, my personal love of Mirran Crusader will keep it in the deck forever. It has great synergy with equipment, which I guess I run more of than Riley, and is a fast cheap clock that can come down before you have 4mana (aka, want to play sisay ideally).
I feel like I'm in a bit of a stagnant place with this decklist. So many of the cards have underperformed for me, but somehow I can't justify taking them out. Looking at my list, at one point or another i've been disappointed with:
Reveillark
Scryb Ranger
Yosei
Eternal Witness
Rofellos
Karmic Guide
Joraga Treespeaker
Linvala
Hero of Bladehold
Thrun
Skullclamp
Ranger of Eos
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Survival of the Fittest
In the abstract, all of these cards are extremely powerful, but there have been a lot of games where they have been very awkward and seem to run counter to my methods of winning. On Elspeth, for example, she's always fine when I play her, but games where I spend a turn playing elspeth I generally find myself losing a few turns later, often because I'm trying to do something too fair in a format that's inherently unfair. Making 1/1s is cool, and the jump is occasionally relevant (I've won on 3 hits with her and el Crusaderino), but I'm not sure she has quite enough abilities to make it really worth the time... Not sure?
Anyway, I'm open to new suggestions about cards. My list is really stuck in a rut. The SB is cards that are close/were recently cut.
Also, as a note, I've been really thinking about big Garruk in this deck. He's kind of unfortunate in that he also is playing fair, but he does it in a pretty big way, and we definitely have ways of casting him early. Also, drawing lots of cards is nice. Thoughts on this?
If I'm being completely honest, I think that Survival of the Fittest is the only card that this (and any deck with green) should run from the list you just provided, but I'm not particularly attached to all the others myself despite running most of them. They're arguably better suited for my mid-rangey focused deck, but that's not a very strong endorsement. I'm still getting used to playing this deck so differently than the way it started off pre-French, so I'm not yet used to leaning on Non-Sisay cards. But anyway, I agree that the rest aren't perfectly suited for a deck more focused on getting in quick beats, given their situational nature and lackluster combat stats. I think that Serra Avenger and Dauntless Escort would be better for you than, say, Scryb Ranger and Eternal Witness (having similar costs). Those latter cards are ones I'm a huge fan of (as well as Great Sable Stag) for meta reasons, partially, but also because they allow me to control/delay the game better.
There are perhaps three viable ways to run Sisay in a competitive 1v1 French meta; a zoo build such as yours, a midrange build such as mine, and maaybe a build dedicated hardcore to pushing combo(s). Since our decks are played fundamentally differently, I would dissuade you from running some of the cards that I do that aren't all-stars in aggressive combat.
Swapping out all/most of the 4 drops is an interesting approach, and one that makes a lot of sense for the aggro style of Sisay. Making it more of a sort of tightly focused Aggro/Zur build would probably yield very strong results. Often, I've looked to this French thread to mine ideas for aggressive white cards that have proven to work in French, and, for green, an elf-ball subtheme (proven very strong in the meta) has always played extremely well for getting Sisay recasts and powering out a few "holy crap" Legends. Sheer focus on accelerating the best 3 drops one turn sooner and rounding out the curve with Sisay could be awesome, and could well put Sisay a clear bar above all of the other aggro decks in the format, even making her a sort of Doran meets Zur style-deck.
So even though that would take the focus off of even more of the old Legendary Staples, getting Jitte consistently is just about all the reason you need to play Sisay over other G/W legends. Yes, readers, Jitte is that good in the meta, and wins the vast majority of the games that it goes active. But I digress.
Taking out all the situational cards that are otherwise awkward seems like a viable approach to me. If you're feeling up to a big overhaul, it may be worth the effort.
On the other hand, I'm still pretty convinced that Sisay wants to be a midrange deck in this meta. Unlike other high tier CA generals, her cost is.. in the mid-range, and you almost always have to wait a turn to get her going. I think modeling her after Zur makes more sense than modeling her after Sygg or Edric, both of which can get away with running sub-optimal redundant creatures to be good. Sisay can't afford that luxury, and every card that isn't uniquely a "must answer" has to either accel us to the midgame or hinder our opponent's faster plan.
I've taken quite a bit of inspiration from my friend's Stoutarm deck, as aforementioned, who handily whooped my Edric build and goes about even with my Sisay deck. His massive amounts of control cards (spot removal, sweeps, removal creatures) allow him to get to the mid-to-late game to win with otherwise ridiculous-for-the-format things like Dragons and Giants. To credit a more well-known player, Gaka's Damia deck can GET THERE freakishly well with some big mana stuff (namely the general) because of the amount of control he plays. I think (at least for the purposes of this discussion) that the amount of control you play scales with the cost of your general. Sisay wants to play a(n un)fair amount of control.
I'm rambling!
On Garruk: I really don't much like any non-cursed Garruks. For Garruk 2, the only exception is Azusa, I think, but she's better positioned to resolve huge beasts every turn post turn 3 to really take advantage of the draw power.
Also, every time Skullclamp is used against me, it's absurdly gamebreaking. I should probably reconsider it, because trading a mana dork mid-to-late game for 2 cards is no doubt amazing. Again, crazy as it may seem, I think the logical slot for it is Sword of Feast and Famine, but I'll have to think about it. This obviously would mean I'd be trialing my token makers some more, too (Elspeth and Hero of Bladehold).
Oh hey guys, I got into Grad school (NYU!!) and start next Monday. That's awesome, but the bad news is that I'll no longer have my physical Magic night open to play and not much time at all for online Magic. I can't promise that I'll be anywhere near as vigilant about updating this deck come next week, but y'all will live! Despite harping on our very few (like, a dozen cards?) differences, Merdock and I run a very similar deck. He knows his stuff. Look to him for updates should I drop off the face of the earth.
Merdock: What was the Edric build like that you played against? Good stuff or piss? Did you come out on top most games? What could have gone differently?
Personally I'm still having problems with voltron generals, especially when they hit a Greaves or Swiftfoot. I mean it's still a favorable matchup because Sisay has such an efficient curve, but Rafiq always seems to sit there and eat up all my mana dorks and keeps me on the back foot. I'm half tempted to run Commander Eesha just for the chump-blocker value (he also works decently vs. Skittles), but I don't think that's a wise decision. Bleh, I should probably just aggressively mulligan for some spot removal and hope for the best.
Brooding Saurion is too slow. I've been playing homeward path, and it is just better. It is easier to find and doesn't take up as much of a card slot since it taps for mana. If you're having trouble with Voltron generals, I'd run more spot removal rather than cards like Eesha, that arent really good against anything else.
Regarding cards I've previously cut: Most of all, I'm concerned about topdecking late-game cards in the early game. Mulling away Iona/Norn/Titan in my opening hand and drawing them again in the first couple of turns hurts (excepts for those times when I blank my opponent's turn 1 Thought Seize or Probe, of course...). I've really minimized the number of those cards to great effect, I'd say, and most of my draws are cards that put immediate pressure on the board state and/or can answer other cards in the meta.
Then again, I'd be blatantly lying to you all if I said that high CMC cards can never cut it in the French meta. Evergreen plays around counters and ramps consistently to 6+ mana plays in the early game very consistently. I watched Abnormality's Azusa take a set against Edric with cards like Avenger of Zendikar and Rampaging Baloths. Some decks can get away with running nothing but planeswalkers as their threats and resolve them without running any counter backup. It's a beautiful thing to witness.
Still, I'm wary. I don't have the discard insurance that black does. I don't have the superior ramp game that Azusa does. I don't have access to all the best removal like 5 color good stuff does--so those decks are exceptional. Is Sisay exceptional? Yes, certainly. But...
There's no confusion as to why we're seeing Edrics and Jenaras and Geists and Elf balls and Isamaru's ruling the top 8 lists; they curve super aggressively and, to quote something I read on a French forum, "it's like your opponent is playing Vampiric Tutor every single turn." If I'm drawing cards that require me to have my current dorks on the field be living and for me to have certain specific lands in play just to ensure that I MIGHT be able to play them in a couple of turns, then I don't think I'm running the most efficient Sisay.
Take, for example, a hard-fought Clique matchup I played (and won 2-1) yesterday. The only cards of mine that resolved the entire 3 matches were those that were played in the first 3 turns. Literally nothing else could make it (note: okay, so I played Stag on turn 3 one of those games, but my point still stands). It concerns me enough already to have to rely so much on my starting hand to get anywhere against the tier 1 control decks, but when I might have to fear drawing the big guys or the conditional guys that require multiple things in play to maximize their effectiveness? That's proven to be less effective for me in the overall meta.
Stubborn, long-winded qualifiers aside, I'm going to be testing out Sword of Feast and Famine again, in place of Steely Resolve. Don't laugh. =P
If the card proves to me that it can pull its weight on its own merits and without needing to be equipped to a very specific creature that is kind of a sucky topdeck (in my experience), then I might consider putting Hokori back in. But as something that better fills the role of protection than Steely Resolve in that it helps turn all of my dorks into potential badasses (without having to rely on just 2 other equipments and Norn), I think Feast and Famine deserves another chance.
But yeah, I should also note that Sisay often seems to exist to eat counters and removal. I know, that's a completely backwards way of looking at the evolution of the deck in the French meta, but there are those matches where my opponent MUST keep holding back plays in the early game to deal with early (and repeated) Sisays. That's often a win-win for me (as I sneak in all sorts of other annoying creatures), but the point I'm trying to make is that I've really had to adapt the deck to contain more goodstuff to function superbly without Sisay. That's not to say I don't cast her when given the opportunity (I certainly do!), but the fewer specific-attribute cards that really depend on her in the deck, the better.
Though ultimately, I should say that I might be wrong about Hokori! I think I have a trend of rescinding my stances on cards every 3rd post.
I also have a habit of saying "I'm happy with where the deck is right now!" as cards keep coming in and out and new ones keep getting discovered. Fun fact, I have nearly enough cards in my "maaaybe I'll put this back in again someday" pile to make 2 more completely different less optimal Sisay decks.
Also, Dr Plok has endorsed Noxious Revival to me, which I agree would be a great addition. It's on the considerations list, for now, until something proves less useful and a spot opens up.
Oh, and maybe I was too quick to dismiss Gavony Township? I'll keep that in mind in future tests.
Aaaaaaaaand that's enough out of me for one day...
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
I know it's probably unnecessary/useless for you guys, but I'd like to hear an evaluation on Gaea's Herald. I've always considered it as a back-up option if my meta ever gets some really blue-heavy players again. Right now I'm more or less given free reign as my metagame has this ridiculous aversion to counterspells, but I know that won't last forever, especially if I start going to other metagames. I'm currently running Dosan the Falling Leaf and Grand Abolisher to screw over counter-heavy decks, but those seem kind of hit or miss depending on whether I can get them to resolve or not. I'm probably worrying over nothing, but I always have this sort of pseudo-sideboard in the back of my head for when that day comes around again, since I'd been in a blue-heavy EDH format before, and it's annoying to play in.
Also, just throwing out some ideas for ya Riley. I expect most of them to get shot out of the sky, but who knows, a few might stick: Burrenton Forge-Tender, Isao, Enlightened Bushi, Obsidian Acolyte and his sister Crimson Acolyte, Auriok Champion, and good ole Eight-and-a-Half-Tails which never makes the cut for me personally but always seems to come back in whenever I feel hated on too heavily. I'm half tempted to suggest Wilt-Leaf Liege since I know a friend who used to run it, but I know no one in their right mind would touch it with targeted discard.
Maybe you'll find something useful in that pile, I dunno.
I've always been known for being able to spot flaws and suggest improvements (as a writer and editor [and judgmental dick], first and foremost), and I'm happy to share all my findings with the community. I saw someone else playing Tithe on Cockatrice recently, and I felt a little proud! Erm, y'know, even if I probably had nothing to do with that, haha.
Alright! On to suggestions:
I'm behind this one for sure. I've yet to test it, but, thinking back, there are many many more scenarios where this would be far more useful than Karmic Guide, so that's come out for Revival. I predict good things with this swap!
You've definitely captured my issue with cards like this. Though not as volatile as, say, Dosan, it does concern me how (a?)symmetrical it is against MOST Tier 1 decks. There was a point where I ran this on top of Winter Orb because of how thoroughly this effect thrashed all my matchups, but that was pre-French meta. Very few decks are playing tapout, and can get by just fine with 1-2 lands available per turn--better than me, even. I'm still very hesitant about reinstating this card, especially now that I've seen other deck's Winter Orbs really ruin my day.
An older version of my deck ran this dork. Although I'm still a fan, I'm pretty comfortable with the number of 1-drop dorks in the deck, and this was one struck me as the weakest (although it's arguable that Arbor Elf is worse, given his potential to sometimes do nothing but be a 1/1).
This is one that I think I ought to reconsider, although I do question how useful vs. irritating it will be (as a colorless mana source). Certainly, it would improve my control matchups even more, but I don't think I need to dedicate anything else to those matchups as they're already positive. Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture, though. This could just be straight up awesome against a lot of decks, particularly elf ball and Isamaru. I'll give it some more thought.
I think I've just lowered the forest count too much. Oddly, I had a game the other day where I hit a land drop every turn, had Scryb Ranger in play, and yet had not a single Forest in play by turn 5. That's an extreme example, but I'd say that I average 1-3 forests per game. Looking back, Rofellos has only rarely ever factored into my casting Norn or Iona, so I'm just not sold on his being needed in the deck anymore. No doubt, he helps with things like equipment costs, though. I'm not entirely sure, but my gut tells me that he doesn't belong anymore.
I do love me some LD and this guy is the cream of the crop in dashing my opponent's hopes and making the game very lopsided. But again, I think he would just improve matchups I'm already in favor of winning, particularly non-control matchups. Another extreme example time: in one game, I drew Norn turn 1 and Sun Titan on turn 2. Fortunately I was playing against a Mono Green deck, but this is no less maddening. The more high cmc guys I have in a deck that doesn't ramp to its fullest (and whose design has gradually and surely shifted away from that model), the sadder I am. As crazy as it sounds, I think Primeval Titan is just Win More for this deck... or win less, if he clogs my hand. Ha, things sure were different when we had Sol Ring and friends. A few turn 2 Prime Times were enough to make him a staple, for sure.
Trying it out for now, seems "okay" again so far. This card didn't blow me away before, but I'm trying to assess it fairly this time around. We'll seeee~
This card was definitely giving me a rough time when I ran it. I do love that I can kill anything (even land!), but often I was giving my opponent bigger creatures than even they ran, and dealing with their permanent just meant I'd be taking 3 damage every turn until the mid to late game. But now that you mention it, this is probably better than Condemn. I'll definitely consider that as I continue testing Condemn.
In all likelihood, I'll end up finding room for this card again. It's one of those odd looking cards to the uninitiated, but it really is quite amazing in Sisay. Definitely, calling Soldier before playing Sisay is a fantastic plan, and much much stronger than Elixir ever was for me.
Tariff in particular has been really good to me, especially in my Edric testing. It's also a way to catch Geist off guard, make your opponent Sac their just-cast Thrun or another bomb they thought they could get away with, and, generally speaking, it's just another good way to deal with generals that are about to kill you if you let your opponent untap. Probably the biggest rookie mistake I've seen in watching games on Cockatrice is underestimating the power of resolved generals and doing something else when you had removal in hand. Tons of cheap removal is so very necessary, and we have Edric to thank for that (though removing Zur and Rafiq and anyone else immediately is really important, too). Also, Tariff doesn't target, so it can't be redirected. So, yay for that.
Thanks for the feedback! Glad you're with us.
Ha, your opinions are always welcome. Unless you're suggesting Autumn Willow or Daughter of Autumn ahahha.. because I've already tried those.
I used to run this along with Dosan, mainboard, before Grand Abolisher came out and before this deck was made for dueling. It was great, then! There was no doubt that my Spike-y playgroup would present blue players to me every time I sat down. But presently, it's not necessary, and probably the wrong sort of card for the deck philosophically. Having to depend on that to resolve in order to work your way up to high CMC legends or combos is not viable for G/W in the French meta, sadly. Also, mono blue has a very difficult time against my deck in the OP, so no additional hate is needed.
If I saw a marked shift in red in the meta, maybe. I'd say that we can expect this shift in the future, given how much this color seems to hurt Edric.
I like this card, actually. Not sure where or how I'd fit it in, but "uncounterable" on a pretty much unblockable creature for 3 mana is nothing to sneeze at.
Not thrilled about these guys.
Again, supposing a shift in red, this would absolutely go in. I've even considered it presently, just given how much burn-heavy decks effect Sisay already. Definitely on the "if the the meta demands it" list.
There was a time where I criticized him for his double white (in a deck that wanted all the green ever to maximize Rofellos into Miyojin), but that's not a valid criticism now. What concerns me more than ever is the high cost associated with his protection, and the order in which he's likely to appear (that is, AFTER Sisay has been cast), which is completely backwards. I think, more than likely, he would just be there to trade with my opponent's 2/2 in the early game, and hamper me too much in the late game relative to Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper.
Hmmmm, 4 drops are pretty much dedicated to Sisay or other "OMG" cards (Linvala, Thrun, Ranger). I like it, but I think it would be better suited in a similar sort of Teeg build. Competing with Sisay and those others is tough.
Alright! One of these days I need to update the first couple of posts. The card explanations and "consideration cards" are way outdated by now. In the near future, I'll get around to it. Also need to upload/reformat Merdock's new list.
Thanks for the contributions, everyone!
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
There's just so little that I'm ramping up to anymore, y'know? Especially that requires a lot of Green. It has the potential to put out a turn 3 Thrun, but then that would happen with any dork.
I'll give the deck some time without Rofellos, and if it turns out I'm not casting Norn or having enough spare mana for other things in the future, then I'll probably add him back in. He's a banned general for good reasons, but my deck is sporting very few of those reasons. Though recasting Sisay in the mid-to-late game may be reason enough. We'll see.
EDIT: Why have I never considered Mayor of Avabruck? Anyone else tried him out?
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Never fear, I'm not quite THAT stupid. Besides Jasmine Boreal is a far superior card to either of those. I mean, she has red hair. You gotta have red hair. Oh, and Sir Shandlar of Eberyn because... uhh... his flavor text is kinda like Guy Fawkes? I guess?
Well, I was never one to advocate having 8.5 tails replace Mommy or Safekeeper but simply to supplement them as part of the protection package. I find personally that I have far too many games where I'm playing a naked Sisay and/or Teeg and hoping for the best which, generally, doesn't end all that well. As aforementioned I play in a much more casual metagame, so I could probably get away with the high cost of protection, but I just wanted to kind of vomit him out there as a reminder that he does, in fact, still exist.
Admittedly I've never been that impressed with the notion of Obsidian Acolyte either merely because he seems so specialized, but I do think it would be a decent metagame choice, especially if black removal becomes highly prevalent. Admittedly he'd be of limited value at best if most of the spot removal is sac-effects, but nevertheless I just wanted to mention that he's been something I've considered for quite a while. I never put him in, but it was always something to ponder.
My reasoning for Wilt-Leaf Liege was more to proactively punish discard effects but, then again, this is highly dependent on what type of discard you face. If it's targeted/random, it's probably less useful than my metagame's more indiscriminate preferences, such as Mind Sludge, Persecute, and etcetera which admittedly are much more exploitable in that regard. I would've suggested such gems as Dodecapod, Obstinate Baloth, and Sand Golem, but WLL seems at least vaguely useful outside of said effect whereas the other options are laughable at best.
I guess I still have to learn the way of the Steely Resolve. Soldier? Hmm, an oddly specific choice, but if you want a shrouded Sisay, I can see that being worthwhile. Heck, I can even see naming Cleric to be a decent option because a lot of our key cards are clerics (Mother of Runes, Devoted Caretaker, Fiend Hunter, Benevolent Bodyguard, Grand Abolisher, Leonin Relic-Warder). Elf/Druid/Monk... slightly less useful, but definitely something to consider. Human of course causes the greatest blanket effect. I'm still trying to squeeze the most out of this card on the few times I get it, but it's definitely a learning experience.
Finally, I'd have to concur with Riley that with my change from +1 land effects to mana dorks, I'm definitely underwhelmed by Rofellos' performance of late. Since the mana ramp is more dependent on its mana dorks survival and Gaea's Cradle, as well as the heavy focus on G/W dual-lands, I typically find Rofellos tapping for 3 under the best of circumstances, Prime-Time shenanigans notwithstanding. Of course my Gaea's Cradle tends to survive longer given my meta, so Rofellos typically doesn't do much except "win more" for me or act as another mana dork. Early game, he's no different from a mana dork for me. An admittedly decent one, but still about the same value as Bloom Tender (which I do run), arguably even less since he can't tap for W. Mid-game when I have an active Sisay, I typically have higher priority targets to search for than something which doesn't do anything until the next turn (assuming he survives, which is far from certain). Late game... I have the Cradle, which is far more effective. I mean, he does his job, but it's not really as stellar as it used to be (when I ran Cultivate and Kodama's Reach and etcetera). Generally, he's about as amazing as Priest of Titania, another card I added which doesn't work for me as well as hoped either.
I do see your point in the difference of 1 mana vs 2 mana dorks, Riley. Of my 2 mana options (Roffy, Priest, and Bloom Tender), the only one I'm ever really happy to see is Bloom Tender mostly because it (usually) taps for W. Honestly I'm much more excited to see an Avacyn's Pilgrim in my opening hand than any of the other three. Turn 1 mana dorks lead to some pretty stupid turn 2 plays (I had a T1 fetch > Savannah > Avacyn, T2 Forest Mommy, Safekeeper, Lawnmower which is really, really stupid. Turn 3 Cradle... well, I think you can see where THAT game went). Turn 2 mana dorks... bleh.
That said, random discard thankfully doesn't make up any significant portion of the French meta. You really only ever encounter Duress, Thoughtseize, Distress, Addle, and other such targeted spells (with the exception, of course, of Hymn to Tourach). Anti-discard specific cards just aren't in high enough demand to be included in the deck.
Nevertheless, Wilt-Leaf Leige is pretty awesome on its own merits. I've spectated a lot of games lately on Cockatrice where mono-red decks just blow out.. everything. Every Tier 1 deck that they encounter. This is surely something that will catch on, as 95% of the creatures you encounter in the meta have 2 or less toughness; Grim Lavamancer is one of the scariest cards in the meta for tier 1 decks. Giving all of our creatures more toughness (and more attack, of course) could be as powerful of an effect as shroud vs. some scary decks for us. I think I ought to seriously consider a spot for Liege.
Haha these are my favorite games, a couple of dorks, protection, and drawing Gaea's Cradle right off the bat. Almost impossible to lose.
@Dr Plok: Nevermore is one of my favorite kind of cards, but seems to really hearken back to the styling of the old deck. I think that, when resolved, it can certainly win games, but it's just not versatile enough to warrant inclusion in a format that demands cards that have tons of versatility, cards that can make an impact regardless of board state or opponent, regardless of what turn they're played.
But I may be wrong about this particular card, even if it doesn't really compliment our gameplan. There's no doubt that all-in style decks with a strong gameplan (again, I fearfully give props to Iname) are terrifyingly good against decks without counter magic, so Nevermore might be a good "blue" kind of spell that ought to improve some matchups.
Still, I've really de-emphasized the enchantment package of the deck, and I think it's for the better. As much as I used to love cards like Sterling Grove and Idyllic Tutor, they didn't really do anything when played. That is, my turn was usually wasted playing those cards, and Grove in particular threw me off tempo more often than not. The current build would have me drawing Nevermore randomly more often than not, and I don't think it's a particularly good topdeck past turn 2. That it's a legless version of a better card doesn't help my overall impression of it either.
I'm not entirely certain, but I'm leaning towards keeping that card out of this version of Sisay. I'd say that a more combo-focused, enchantment toolbox style Sisay can justify running it, though (a version that still runs Living Plane, eg).
Mayor may warrant testing, particularly given my "red hates us so much" musing above. Giving a toughness boost to a good number of our creatures may prove extremely backbreaking against not only red decks but any aggro deck that relies on the early game to sneak damage in against Sisay. I'll give it some thought.
Hokori Hokori... what am I going to do with you, Hokori?
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
If you're seriously considering pump effects, I found some interesting options you might want to consider (dependent on the prevalence of Pyroclasm-type effects, which make these options pointless at best). Of course I'm not sure the kinds of cards you're facing, so I'm just kind of guessing here.
As far as cheaper static pumps, you have the elf lords which would work for a decent chunk of the mana dorks and Fauna Shaman, you also have some random options in Veteran Armorer, and Juniper Order Advocate (a card I hadn't ever heard of until today and seems almost ridiculously useful). As far as non-creatures, there are of course all the anthems, and I know a friend of mine has this unhealthy love for Spidersilk Armor, so once again I don't know how useful any of those options are, but I thought they might be of consideration.
If you're really worried about red, though, I'd think outright anti-red hate would do better than something as indirect as pump effects, but this would of course be dependent on if the metagame is saturated enough to justify running silver bullets of that nature.
Let me know how Mayor/Wilt-Leaf turn out for you. I'm curious myself.
Alright, the 36 lands experiment has lead me to the following conclusion:
RUN 37 LANDS
That is all.
But seriously, I was having just one too many games in my recent tests where I'd have to mull aggressively to get more than 2 lands in my opener (and have to keep <5 cards in hand). This is in contrast to when I ran 37 lands, when this almost never happened. One land shouldn't make that much of a difference, but it seems to. For land 37, I'm going with Gavony Township again.
Also, re-testing of Crop Rotation is going very well. I stuck in Sejiri Steppe for the first time ever, and the combination of these two cards with a Great Sable Stag in play won me a game against Edric. My opponent eventually got his draw engine going and kept managing to dig for green creatures to chump Stag, but he was at just 3 life. Also, he kept keeping up 1-to-1 with my threats with his counterspells. Topdecking Rotation allowed me to swing past his only green blocker for game. But yeah, even having the opportunity to have Crop'd for a manland seemed good.
Also, seeing all the various theft effects come down in tonight's games (often multiple effects per game) really makes me confident about keeping Homeward Path in the deck. I'm not convinced that Path is good enough for any other deck, but Sisay is really dependent on her utility creatures sticking around for several turns compared to other decks (that either use their utility creatures to do something amazing on the spot or whose greatest attribute is "evades").
Noxious Revival only came up in one game, but it allowed me to replay a Swords to Plowshares vs. Edric. I think that's probably reason enough to run that card.
I managed to win a game against a resolved Back to Basics which I couldn't answer. That was a good one.
I had a game with a turn 1 Mother of Runes and a turn 2 Sylvan Safekeeper. My creatures were there to stay and eventually served as finishers when Norn hit the field. Never underestimate the shroud creatures.
Condemn also tested well when that came up. Seems like it would be relevant against pretty much every single Tier 1 deck we'll face. I'm feeling pretty comfortable with that. I had an opener with Swords to Plowshares and Condemn, and my opponent had a turn 1 Gitaxian Probe. Seeing that made him not even attempt to cast Edric until around turn 6 or so, which allowed me to build my hand and force his counters. Great game for me.
Still, the thought keeps crossing my mind that I might be better off with Condemn and Tariff as Wrath of God and Day of Judgment..
@d3pthcharge: I don't like Armorer or Order Advocate enough to include them in the deck (and especially not Spidersilk). I'd rather have something more threatening/versatile and with itself a bigger butt to survive burn. If I do go this route in response to a rise in red decks, I think Wilt-Leaf is our best bet. Thank you for the suggestions, though.
Red hate is extremely narrow overall, unlike the ostensible "anti-blue" cards; Thrun can't be targeted by any deck and can regenerate, Stag can't be targeted by a large majority of the removal we'll face in the meta and is pretty much unblockable against a lot of great decks, and Scryb Ranger has evasion and synergizes with our general. Anti-red cards tend to be just anti-red cards. Auriok Champion, again, would be the one I'd consider first because of its versatility against multiple decks (and, surely, its capacity to improve my matchup vs aggro decks in general).
As much as I love the idea of Mayor, I'm not sure where I'm going to fit him in. I ended up not finding room for Sword of Feast and Famine, too. Honestly, I'd love to find room for Mirran Crusader, too. There are so many strong g/w aggro cards available, but maybe they're better suited for Teeg (who wouldn't be running all of the high cmc Legends, I think).
I'll update the list tomorrow and re-evaluate what ought to stay. Off to bed!
EDIT: Okay, I'm winning tons of games that Mox Dimaond never would have factored into, and I've been fortunate enough not to topdeck it mid-to-late game. That said, I DON'T want to topdeck it mid-to-late game. For now, I'll refill that spot with Rofellos, who will almost certainly draw removal or a counter if nothing else just because he's friggin' Rofellos and everyone expects Sisay to play Eldrazi or other overcosted Legends (but yeah, even a small boost towards resolving Norn is important, considering she wins me most of my games). He can only work to my advantage and isn't a terrible topdeck. If I end up feeling meh about him again, I'll probably slot in Sword of Feast and Famine.
I've updated my decklist in the OP. I'm feeling like adding more nonbasics now that Back to Basics is banned... This might be the right time to reconsider Yavimaya Hollow.
EDIT 2: OH GOD. Or maybe 36 is the magic number for lands after all? I had 2 games in a row against Gaka where I was getting land-flooded. Crazy luck that he got land-flooded significantly worse in game 2, but still. If I do lower the count again, I hate to put myself in a position where I must resolve Land Tax/Tithe/Wayfarer/Life from the Loam or lose more, though. Hmmm. I'll give myself some more tests at 37 lands before reverting back to 36 too quickly.
EDIT 3: Currently (re)testing the following cards:
Mayor of Avabruck
Goldmeadow Harrier
Beast Within
Aura Shards
- Condemn
- Birthing Pod
- Phyrexian Revoker
- Tariff
I've been looking at Condemn and Tariff with extreme scrutiny lately, as these are by far my worst removal options. As much as I'd love to try Day of Judgment and Wrath of God in their spots, I have a feeling they're just not going to suit the deck. Too often I find myself wishing I had a more versatile removal option, and now that my deck is more combat oriented than it once was, I think the 3/3 creature drawback from Beast Within won't be that big of a deal to me anymore. Gideon's Lawkeeper has also been fantastic for me, so the addition of Harrier should serve me well, too. Shrouding my repeatable answers who eventually turn into finishers is this deck's bread and butter.
Also, I have a major problem with not getting answers to artifacts/enchantments that are going to completely utterly destroy me next turn unless I topdeck one of my 5 cards that can deal with them, whether that's in the form of a mana rock getting them to their general faster (Godo, Zur, Iname) or Sword or Jitte that's about to destroy me or a Survival of the Fittest or whatever the hell else, there are tons of reasons to turn every single one of your creatures into a Harmonic Sliver. I'd recommend giving Aura Shards another shot.
Mayor just looks amazing. We'll see how he tests, but I predict good things.
As for Birthing Pod, I'm not really that thrilled to see it when I draw it (and not necessarily just because it's a worse Survival). I doubt I'll miss it, but it'll remain close-by in my "maybe" pile. I've flopped on Revoker several times now and often because I find him too reactive for my tastes (and for the way this deck has evolved). He's not bad at all, but seems lackluster for me. If he's played better for you, keep him in.
I still need to find room for Steely Resolve again. Playing against my friend's Red/White deck made me miss the added shroud effect more intensely than most. Also makes me wish I could run as many Gaddock Teegs as he runs board wipes, lol. I'll probably take out Rofellos again. A few more test games really made him a lousy topdeck and not even worth being cast.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
1. Noxious Revival is not a good card. I understand that I was one of the people that wanted more ways to get things back from the graveyard before, but the fact is that this card is not really what you want to be doing. Having this in your opening hand is terrible. It's situational, awkward, and occasionally useless. I would much rather have another good card (of which there are many)
2. 36 lands is fine. I would run more mana dorks over lands if you're having mana trouble. I've never had a serious problem with 36 (aside from the occasional mana screw, which happens to every deck)
3. Mayor of Avabruk is bad, especially in Riley's list. It doesnt do anything the deck is trying to do, and it's barely playable in standard (and even draft, where it is super high variance). Generally an overrated card, and doesnt fit into the plan of accelerating out sisay and winning with norn or (for me) hokori. I found it particularly funny when someone mentioned Mayor being good against red decks for the pump. Hilarious. Mayor is absolutely terrible against red decks. The only reason to play the card is for the draw-go matchup, and I think you can do better things there.
4. Birthing pod is totally sweet and I would never cut it, though it is possible that it is better in my deck than yours because I run more value creatures on the curve. The fact that I can pod an elf into stoneforge, and stoneforge into eternal witness to return stoneforge already has me sold.
5. I am still absolutely dumbfounded by how much you guys seem to consider sword of feast and famine only a fringe playable in this deck. Yes it is better than sword of fire and ice. No, it is not even slightly close. Yes, pro-blue is nice, but the sword you actually want to connect with is SoFaF. Connecting with it corrects all of your lost tempo from the entire game, and in conjunction with Hokori, wins games on the spot. Not playing this card is a serious mistake. In conjunction with this, I've found that the "equipment" subtheme of my deck has been fantastic and always overperformed. Being able to tutor for equipment that just kills people is fantastic, and the toolbox has been very powerful. Specifically, I'd recommend this set of cards to just about anyone:
Stoneforge Mystic
Stonehewer Giant
Steelshaper's Gift
Lightning Greaves
Skullclamp
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Feast and Famine
It may seem like overkill to play all of these, but I assure you they're all incredible and have never let me down. Stoneforge Mystic in particular is one of the deck's best cards, but the rest are all very very high on the list as well, and cards that I have never considered cutting after I played with them a bit.
6. Hokori is a must. I know i've said this many many times, but I'm here to say it again. Hokori is one of the best cards in the deck, if not the best card. No, it is not always ideal, but the idea of playing sisay and a deck full of other tutor effects is that you can search up what you need with a reasonable amount of consistency. I tutor up Hokori more than any other card by a landslide (second is stoneforge), and even if you play a meta full of draw-go decks, hokori is still worth it as a bullet for your other matchups. This card wins games. With Cradle, Sword of Feast and Famine, and many of the decks other effects, the effect isnt anywhere close to symmetric, and Hokori benefits from the deck's protection effects in that you are able to protect it easily.
7. Gavony Township? Seriously? I ask you to consider any of the "slow" cards on my list over this card, because if you're townshipping multiple times in a game, you're doing something very wrong. This deck should have a LOT to do in the later turns! Townshipping random dorks to win is depressing, and should not be even a Plan X. I think playing this card is essentially hoping that, for the 1 game in 1000 that it is useful, it is good enough to merit how awkward it is in a deck full of G mana dorks and WW creatures.
8. @Riley, I disagree a great deal with what you've done to this deck's manabase. I think that you were correct before in your assertion that tapped lands are not good for the deck, and I've been very happy with my manabase for the deck for quite some time (list to come shortly)
9. Let me know how Eight and a Half Tales tests, if anyone tries it. It seems solid, though the fact that it is legendary is totally irrelevant, since I can't imagine ever tutoring for it (unless I'm out of targets). It may be good enough just as a card though.
10. Primeval Titan > Sun Titan. Not close. If you like Sun Titan (and I think you do, Riley, since you still play it), you should try Primeval Titan. The lands it tutors (at least the first time) are generally very strong, and its ability to make the game lopsided, as you note, is insane. I wouldnt suggest cutting sun titan (I happily run both), but I'd run primeval titan.
11. On the deck's curve: I think Riley's list has gotten almost too streamlined. Your curve is so low it's almost concerning, and while I love casting cheap spells, I think it's important for this deck to play the most powerful cards in order to beat the draw-go decks. Look at the strength of G/W Maverick in Legacy as compared to zoo. The decks are the same except that Maverick plays insane threats (elspeth, stoneforge) that need to be countered and makes its opponent play reactively. That's what this deck needs to do. It has a must-counter general, and should play a bunch of must-counter threats to go with it. You mention that sometimes you draw a hand with a couple of 6 drops and it sucks. Yeah, it does. It also doesnt happen very often. Sometimes you have a 6 drop and 2 ramp spells and it's totally fine. You mulligan sometimes. It's fine. I'm willing to bet that the amount that a deck with a few more 6 drops has to mulligan in EDH as compared to one with a few less is about as close to negligible as possible.
Now that I've finished my rants (apologies for the tone, if it offended anyone, just speaking my mind), here's my list (SB and Maybeboard are cards in consideration): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sisay-edh-3/
Also, as a bonus, here's my list of cards I believe are absolute staples in the deck in the sense that I will absolutely never cut them ever at any point in the future ever ever ever. These are cards that have never disappointed, and that I believe it is a mistake not to run. Personal favorites, like Stonehewer Giant (which I think everyone should try) and "Powerful cards" (like Survival of the Fittest, which has disappointed me) do not make the list because they are great but not essential. What is on this list is essential. I believe it to be the core of the Sisay deck.
Stoneforge Mystic
Eladamri's Call
Steelshaper's Gift
Green Sun's Zenith
Lightning Greaves
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sylvan Library
Bloom Tender
All the 1 drop accelerants (Fyndorn Elves, Llanowar Elves, Birds of Paradise, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl) and to a lesser extent, Joraga Treespeaker, which has been awkward at times, but probably good enough to merit inclusion
Mother of Runes
Benevolent Bodyguard
Umezawa's Jitte
Harmonic Sliver
Lignify
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Nature's Claim
Oust
Elesh Norn
Sun Titan
Primeval Titan
Hokori
Saffi Eriksdotter
Gaddock Teeg
Knight of the Reliquary
Gaea's Cradle
All the obvious untapped G/W duals.
And, of course, the Captain Herself.
I'd be happy to debate any of the above cards, simply because I'm that confident in all of them. There are obviously situations in which any one of them is not optimal, but I think they all do more than enough for the deck to merit inclusion in any list.
To a lesser extent:
Enlightened Tutor
Worldly Tutor
I think Insist should definitely be considered.
I think Isao is very interesting, and I'm with Riley in that I have no idea where in the deck it would really fit, but it definitely seems like a cool card that's worth considering.
But no doubt, those differences are key; I play substantially more control and you play more aggro. I think they're both ostensibly valid approaches to the deck, but I feel a lot more comfortable facing other top tier decks with more control cards, and experience has taught me that you can never have too much control if this deck ever wants to top 8.
That said, my friend's R/W deck legit whooped up on my Edric deck (cobbled together from all the best lists, no missing cards, tested heavily, and in none of the games were my hands or draws considered bad). My friend had so much spot removal that it invalidated all of my early plays, and his every card was a must-counter (or had a great ETB ability that made it stupid for me to bounce). Where I'm going with this is that his curve was pretty high relative to the way I build my decks and relative to what you typically see in the French meta. He had all of our white bombs plus some red ones plus an Insurrection (that actually won him a game) plus multiple sweeps. He had so much control in the early game that he ensured a late game in all of our matches. The one game in the set that I won, he was land-screwed and made a play mistake that put him too far behind.
The point I'm trying to make is that, without sufficient control in the early game to deal with S Tier Edric or other comparably powerful decks in the upper echelon, no other card in your deck matters. Building a winning deck in the French meta requires a ton of redundancy to ensure that you see removal and other disruptive cards in your opener. Even at my current number of removal options, I can get blown out by decks that can puke out their general faster than I can do anything but play a mana dork or two (and hope that removal is on top). This is why Ezuri has rarely poked his heads into the top 8s of tournaments lately (and why he's been replaced largely with Rhys); its lack of removal makes it a cake-walk for better decks and every deck that's been adding more removal to survive the top generals.
I think that the only way you can justify having multiple cards in any non-Azusa deck that're more than 4 mana in this meta is by having a ton of counters, spot removal, board wipes, or some/all of the above. And then, you have to expect the same from your opponents if they're piloting top decks and have also been adjusting to a meta so changed by Edric; you can't always lean on your mana dorks who are perfectly valid removal targets. I've found that playing Tithe and Land Tax and even Loam (in addition, of course, to all the disruptive/removal cards) are a necessary edge towards getting to my bombs in enough time before I get blown out by better, faster, more disruptive decks.
Again, back to the anecdote with my buddy's disruptive heavy/high-curved deck, he did play Stonehewer Giant and most of the equipments you love, to great effect. But that effect was enabled by the fact that I was forced to blow all my removal on his earlier plays, most of which were murdering everything I played at instant speed. I also got wrecked by Cataclysm, which is.. worth noting, since that card has come up in Sisay discussions before. So yeah, Giant is a fantastic finisher for an aggro gameplan, but I think he has to fit a certain build if ever you want to see him do his thing.
All that said, I've decided to give you, Merdock, a Christmas gift:
- Mayor of Avabruck
- Noxious Revival
- Gavony Township
- Plains
+ Hokori, Dust Drinker
+ Sword of Feast and Famine
+ Tranquil Thicket
+ Secluded Steppe
Well, the cycle lands are a gift to myself, but the others I'm doing just for you. ;P
If I'm being totally honest about Gavony, 4 mana to pump my dorks is pretty depressing, and indeed this deck already boasts a fine matchup vs. counter-heavy decks. Colorless mana lands with only decent abilities don't belong. They must be amazingly useful like Homeward Path to be in this deck.
I suppose that a good lesson I ought to have learned by now is that, just because it tests well doesn't mean it's worth one of the precious 99 spots. "Tests well" and "compliments our gameplan" are two very different criteria, and I musn't keep taking steps to turn this deck into a Blue-less version of Jenara. Sisay is definitely a genral that warrants building around more heavily than most. Though brash, I do appreciate you keepin' it real, Merdock. I'll give Hokori his fair due in the French meta.
On a few closing notes, Survival is amazingly busted, but understandably less so in your build. As long as it's a legal card, I'll be rocking Loyal Retainers and Iona/Norn and stealing games on turn 3-4. But even without that ridiculousness, Survival gets me.. anything. For 1G. I'd say that it has Mana Drain status in that you absolutely run it if you're in the colors, so I'd argue that it belongs on your list. The only other thing I find disagreeable is Saffi, but that's a matter of deck style and she's obviously still one of the best Legends we could play.
Also, the CITP lands (particularly the sac ones) keep doing very well for me, accelerating me into broken plays a turn quicker, most of which usually net me card advantage (I love this deck). Steppe isn't always great, but as long as I have Crop Rotation in there, I think I'd regret not having Steppe. I'm also very pleased with the Manlands, but again, different style of decks. And Planeswalkers in a great deck can just wreck us. Let me just say that I have a newfound respect for Chandra Nalaar....
EDIT: I'm a really big fan of Utopia Sprawl, having played it in a different deck way back when on top of dorks. I agree about Joraga being probably the least auto-includey of the dorks you listed. I'll consider that as a swap in the future.
EDIT 2: Wow... I've somehow managed to leave Tectonic Edge out of my list in the OP for the past 2 months, despite having run the card in my deck for that long. Whoops. It probably goes without saying, but the card has tested very well for me. Taking out a bi-colored deck's only duel mana source can be crippling for their entire gameplan, even on turn 4.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
I've taken out Harm's Way and Devoted Caretaker, because they're kind of crappy and narrow (and never really factored into most of my games, wins or losses). For the time being, I'm testing Wrath of God and Day of Judgment in their slots, two cards that could have turned around countless games. This should definitely improve our matchups vs.. everything? But really, vs. Animar, Geist, Edric, Doran, Lyzolda, and any other creature deck that can go nuts before I hit my magical 7 mana spot for Norn winning.
What else?
I recently cut the Moxen from my Edric deck as they proved to be both terrible topdecks and too risky to go all in on in the early game vs. other tier 1 decks. I'm even wary about the mana elves, given the way the meta has been adapting to murder Edric on sight with efficient spot removal. Unless Edric can get the draw engine going, he's hurting for land drops so bad, and has one helluva time getting back to 5 for a hopeful recasting (at which point you want more, for counter backup). Sylvan Safekeeper is the best card in that deck, I"m tellin' ya. And yeah, the mana elves help get him back there, but they're otherwise useless in combat, where so many good stuff decks are resolving threats and smashing your face handily. Call me silly, but I've been extending these thoughts to Sisay as well. I love me some mana dorks and making crazier plays happen a turn sooner, but I'm going to be looking at them with more scrutiny in the coming months, as they're still crappy topdecks (and very vulnerable), equipment in play or not.
Haven't played a ton of games with Sisay lately, but there was one game where she became active vs. a control deck, and getting Hokori was the best tutor target for sure. That's a good sign.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
- Goldemeadow Harrier
- Gideon's Lawkeeper
- Land Tax
- Tithe
- Life from the Loam
- Hokori, Dust Drinker
- Secluded Steppe
- Tranquil Thicket
- Plains
+ Mirran Crusader
+ Hero of Bladehold
+ Skullclamp
+ Birthing Pod
+ Sylvan Scrying
+ Harm's Way
+ Plains
+ Forest
+ Flagstones of Trokair
I'll probably miss Land Tax and Tithe the most, but I won't miss them not activating for maximum value. If I seem more land-screwed in the future, I'll play 'em again.
Hokori just isn't cutting it for me. I'll keep him in mind as I test more, but I just don't find myself wanting him nearly often enough, if ever. The same can be said for the tappers. They're pretty okay-ish. Terrible top decks, but good for getting me to the mid-game. Anti-synergy with my wraths, though, and hard to keep any mana open in this deck that still likes to tap out often.
I found myself just shy of having enough spot removal cards to deal with Edric again in recent testing, so Harm's Way is back in until something better comes out (also versatile against some of my weaker matchups, like any deck with red). Sylvan Scrying can get me manlands or Ancient Tomb, which means it's not a completely horrible topdeck (unlike some of the recently cut cards). Everything else is self-explanatory.
Wraths are testing well. I've spectated some super explosive Animar and Rhys games recently, and often the only thing I can see that would beat them are wraths, something most decks still aren't running. Glad to have them.
In other news, I finally caught up with Sessstreets and got my custom art Sisay! =D
So lovely. Foil, too!
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
But man! 2 mana, FIRST STRIKE (lol, hi Geist), and tutorable with Sisay is a fantastic hate-bear for the deck. It's one of those cards that will shine whether it's drawn early or late, forcing your opponent to slow down his plays to have the right amount of mana open to counter your threats. Or just to have the right amount of mana open to play equipments, removals, etc, and that one mana difference is so substantial for most decks, not just control. I'm definitely going to be finding room for her.
Here's hoping she's not a 20+ dollar rare (she's not mythic?)... but if the Rumor Mill buzz is any indication, Standard and Legacy players alike may be getting a set. Good card is good.
But, as always, there's the challenge of finding a space for her. I suppose that if Clamp has lackluster testing again, that's probably the most likely spot. /shrug
EDIT: OH GOD, okay. I remember why I added Land Tax and Tithe to begin with. With 37 lands and some dorks, I miss land drops like crazy, and that kills this deck. In at least half of my test games, I get caught up on 3-4 lands or mana sources, and that's just unacceptable. This is probably the number one killer I see in decks on Cockatrice, idling around that amount of mana (which is really something only red based decks or elf ball can get away with). Again, although both of these cards seem dubious, I think they're musts for my build and have been very good to me, definitely improving the quality of my draws, making sure I have cards in hand, and ensuring land drops. Sorry, Sylvan Scrying and Sword of Feast and Famine. You've got to go. I've done plenty fine without Sword (who really wants Hokori and a much slower meta [and blue] to shine) thus far, and again I don't think I'll be missing it. My apologies to Merdock. Don't hate me!
EDIT 2:
- Skullclamp
- Birthing Pod
- Sejiri Steppe
- Iona, Shield of Emeria
- Crop Rotation
+ Razorverge Thicket
+ Thalia
+ Elspeth, Knight-Errant
+ Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
+ Benevolent Bodyguard
Recent tests have been going very poorly for me. I've been land-screwed (both in the sense of wrong colors and not hitting land drops) and unable to do anything consistent from game to game. This is in stark contrast to earlier iterations of the deck, where at least getting to cast Sisay was a sure thing. I've taken out the 5 above cards that did not have synergy with the deck or were never desired in the meta (Iona, farewell old friend.. you're just totally outclassed by Norn). Clamp and Pod are absolutely nuts, but just are anti-Sisay's game plan. Sparing creatures is not her thing, for any reason. Clamp may find its way back in someday, but for now it's one of the weaker cards, especially relative to the new (re)additions.
I've never played with Elspeth before, but I think she'll be well-suited for the deck. Maybe she'll make me want to have clamp back. We'll see!
Thank you to Khymera for helping me brainstorm, and for Merdock for being ahead of the curve. =P
EDIT 3:
Or maybe I want to run Sword of Feast and Famine over Mirran Crusader? Hm.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Sword is much better than Elspeth (as in, not close), so I definitely wouldnt add elspeth while removing sword.. Similarly, it seems like you're not treating hokori like the bullet that she is.
I'd also remove Hero of Bladehold. It's been pretty bad for me, and generally doesn't fit the deck's game plan.
Agree with a lot of your other changes. I wouldnt cut skullclamp, but it has been lackluster for me too, so maybe I'm just wrong there. Skullclamp + Elspeth has been kind of sweet for me sometimes.
I'm going to edit my deck a bit more soonish. I played against edric and realized I was having a lot of trouble resolving things like norn b/c of countermagic (which accounted for all of my losses to the deck). I've also found that midrangey crap isn't really helpful, while cards like gaea's herald seem like they'd be good.
It's funny that your deck is becoming more aggressive while mine is now moving towards the straight t3 protected sisay, t4 do stuff plan...
With hokori, I actually win a number of games in a stax fashion, so more cards that would complement that would be sweet. Also, Sisay herself is such a nice combination of proactive and hate-tutoring that it seems to fit the bill as both a wincon and support...
Hmm....
I think I could probably get behind swapping Hokori in for Hero of Bladebold, as much as I love the latter. Without running Skullclamp, Hero isn't living up to her full potential and is otherwise awkward on the curve. Making non-flying vanilla guys is, sadly, really irrelevant in the meta, and as a four-drop she's likely to take away Sisay's turn, and I'm kidding myself if I think that my opponent has THAT much countermagic/spot removal that I need yet another must-answer threat that doesn't exactly compliment the rest of the deck.
Hokori, on the other hand, seems to be gaining in value. Increasingly more, I'm seeing wraths played in conjunction with more spot removal in the format, which are especially great against top tier decks such as Edric, Geist, and Animar. These cards aren't so fantastic vs. Karador and Iname, but that's life. Still, keeping my opponent from being able to untap for wrath mana (as he almost certainly sets up with artifacts or something the turn prior) means another opportunity to tutor up Teeg, maybe. When I played this deck in a more casual meta where most decks were ported from multiplayer mainly, this line of play definitely worked out in my favor. I should probably be looking at Hokori as more of a Linvala sort of card in that it's definitely not great all the time, but has it's value at the right moments (still, sadly far far fewer moments in the meta). And hey, I did settle on including Sword of Feast and Famine, so that's something.
It does bother me, however, that he's yet another creature that dies to pyroclasm effects, something else that's, I'd say, become more popular than wraths. As a four-drop, that really sucks. Though it's also a 2-power creature, sometimes I feel like Glissa would be a better hoser to re-include. I can't think of a single deck I've encountered that she wouldn't be relevant against, from destroying something small and nigh-inevitable like Pithing Needle or something that's going to wreck us like Batterskull, she might warrant a second chance more than Hokori in my build. I'll have to think about this a bit more before making a decisions. It's not like any of my decisions are final, as clearly evidenced by this thread! =P
As for more Stax-style cards...
I sat in on a game with Moondust on Cockatrice the other night. He had just brewed up a completely different Sisay deck that was every hate bear and lock-down creature/permanent available, or so I saw. I specifically remember seeing Leonin Arbiter and thinking "Err, don't know if THAT one belongs..." but it was certainly in character with the other cards.
I think that we could both benefit from running Rishdan Port. As far as colorless lands are concerned, this one has proven to be fantastic vs. control and just fantastic otherwise for keeping players a turn away from hitting their magic number. I know that Sisay loves her colors, but this land could well be the key to resolving more threats and for complimenting a more stax-style build. At least in Azusa, anyway, I've seen this card be even more insane with the combination of Vesuva. Port is almost certainly worth finding space for.
Many moons ago, I picked up a Root Maze and an Aura of Silence but never tested either. They seem effective, though. Also, g/w elf-ball is still pretty damn ridiculous (and, of course, Edric), so I think there's a really good case for running Ethersworn Canonist now. I might even try to find room for that one. I played Null Rod for quite some time and was mostly pleased with it. And of course there's Ghostly Prison and Norn's Annex. All of these cards buy you time, and those cards seem to compliment Sisay well, who's a four drop with no immediate impact.
But yeah, I'm still a-okay with casting a turn 3 Sisay if the right conditions are met--namely, Mother of Runes /Sylvan Safekeeper / Steely Resolve / Lightning Greaves are in play--but I'll almost certainly cast her against non-blue decks as soon as I can. It's the blue-theft nonsense that has me otherwise apprehensive about being too hasty with her.
I used to play Gaea's Herald back before using the French rules (but still dueling), and I only rarely encountered scary decks that weren't "Every Counter Spell: The Deck," so she made a helluva lot of sense to run. Regardless of banlists, blue is obviously still really dominant, so she's not necessarily terrible... but still really disappointing against non-blue decks. Having run all the anti-blue hate cards at one point or another (even a certain derpy Centaur), I'd have to recommend steering clear of the very specific hate cards. Something like Grand Abolisher should be plenty, or at least try Insist because it cantrips. I don't even think I've seen Herald run in elf-ball, for what it's worth.
Okay, the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards Ethersworn Canonist in place of Hero of Bladehold.
PS. Boy, how I wish they'd made Grafdigger's Cage a legendary card...
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Oh well. It's not everyday we can get a Jitte. And whatever else this set has to spoil, I'm really thankful for Thalia already.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Thalia seems good, though I have to wonder if she'll be a lot like Phyrexian Revoker was for me, good but kind of weirdly situational. The fact that she's good against counters and wraths make her an autoinclude though, at least for a solid bit of testing. I have high hopes. Definitely better than dosan.
So cards like Hero of Bladehold and Ranger of Eos I'm losing respect for pretty rapidly. They're just too midrangey for the deck and really don't fit the gameplan. On the other hand, my personal love of Mirran Crusader will keep it in the deck forever. It has great synergy with equipment, which I guess I run more of than Riley, and is a fast cheap clock that can come down before you have 4mana (aka, want to play sisay ideally).
I feel like I'm in a bit of a stagnant place with this decklist. So many of the cards have underperformed for me, but somehow I can't justify taking them out. Looking at my list, at one point or another i've been disappointed with:
Reveillark
Scryb Ranger
Yosei
Eternal Witness
Rofellos
Karmic Guide
Joraga Treespeaker
Linvala
Hero of Bladehold
Thrun
Skullclamp
Ranger of Eos
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Survival of the Fittest
In the abstract, all of these cards are extremely powerful, but there have been a lot of games where they have been very awkward and seem to run counter to my methods of winning. On Elspeth, for example, she's always fine when I play her, but games where I spend a turn playing elspeth I generally find myself losing a few turns later, often because I'm trying to do something too fair in a format that's inherently unfair. Making 1/1s is cool, and the jump is occasionally relevant (I've won on 3 hits with her and el Crusaderino), but I'm not sure she has quite enough abilities to make it really worth the time... Not sure?
Anyway, I'm open to new suggestions about cards. My list is really stuck in a rut. The SB is cards that are close/were recently cut.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sisay-edh-3/
Also, as a note, I've been really thinking about big Garruk in this deck. He's kind of unfortunate in that he also is playing fair, but he does it in a pretty big way, and we definitely have ways of casting him early. Also, drawing lots of cards is nice. Thoughts on this?
There are perhaps three viable ways to run Sisay in a competitive 1v1 French meta; a zoo build such as yours, a midrange build such as mine, and maaybe a build dedicated hardcore to pushing combo(s). Since our decks are played fundamentally differently, I would dissuade you from running some of the cards that I do that aren't all-stars in aggressive combat.
Swapping out all/most of the 4 drops is an interesting approach, and one that makes a lot of sense for the aggro style of Sisay. Making it more of a sort of tightly focused Aggro/Zur build would probably yield very strong results. Often, I've looked to this French thread to mine ideas for aggressive white cards that have proven to work in French, and, for green, an elf-ball subtheme (proven very strong in the meta) has always played extremely well for getting Sisay recasts and powering out a few "holy crap" Legends. Sheer focus on accelerating the best 3 drops one turn sooner and rounding out the curve with Sisay could be awesome, and could well put Sisay a clear bar above all of the other aggro decks in the format, even making her a sort of Doran meets Zur style-deck.
So even though that would take the focus off of even more of the old Legendary Staples, getting Jitte consistently is just about all the reason you need to play Sisay over other G/W legends. Yes, readers, Jitte is that good in the meta, and wins the vast majority of the games that it goes active. But I digress.
Taking out all the situational cards that are otherwise awkward seems like a viable approach to me. If you're feeling up to a big overhaul, it may be worth the effort.
On the other hand, I'm still pretty convinced that Sisay wants to be a midrange deck in this meta. Unlike other high tier CA generals, her cost is.. in the mid-range, and you almost always have to wait a turn to get her going. I think modeling her after Zur makes more sense than modeling her after Sygg or Edric, both of which can get away with running sub-optimal redundant creatures to be good. Sisay can't afford that luxury, and every card that isn't uniquely a "must answer" has to either accel us to the midgame or hinder our opponent's faster plan.
I've taken quite a bit of inspiration from my friend's Stoutarm deck, as aforementioned, who handily whooped my Edric build and goes about even with my Sisay deck. His massive amounts of control cards (spot removal, sweeps, removal creatures) allow him to get to the mid-to-late game to win with otherwise ridiculous-for-the-format things like Dragons and Giants. To credit a more well-known player, Gaka's Damia deck can GET THERE freakishly well with some big mana stuff (namely the general) because of the amount of control he plays. I think (at least for the purposes of this discussion) that the amount of control you play scales with the cost of your general. Sisay wants to play a(n un)fair amount of control.
I'm rambling!
On Garruk: I really don't much like any non-cursed Garruks. For Garruk 2, the only exception is Azusa, I think, but she's better positioned to resolve huge beasts every turn post turn 3 to really take advantage of the draw power.
Also, every time Skullclamp is used against me, it's absurdly gamebreaking. I should probably reconsider it, because trading a mana dork mid-to-late game for 2 cards is no doubt amazing. Again, crazy as it may seem, I think the logical slot for it is Sword of Feast and Famine, but I'll have to think about it. This obviously would mean I'd be trialing my token makers some more, too (Elspeth and Hero of Bladehold).
Oh hey guys, I got into Grad school (NYU!!) and start next Monday. That's awesome, but the bad news is that I'll no longer have my physical Magic night open to play and not much time at all for online Magic. I can't promise that I'll be anywhere near as vigilant about updating this deck come next week, but y'all will live! Despite harping on our very few (like, a dozen cards?) differences, Merdock and I run a very similar deck. He knows his stuff. Look to him for updates should I drop off the face of the earth.
Merdock: What was the Edric build like that you played against? Good stuff or piss? Did you come out on top most games? What could have gone differently?
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread