Well if it were 20hp the format ok, but at 30HP I prefer by a lot having a bunch of Tier 2 playable decks, and some tier 1 decks that are not too far in power level than the tier 2, instead of a format dominated by 8 decks where the tier 2 decks are absent, basically 8 Tier 1, 1-2 Tier 2, The rest Tier 3 decks, that I think is not a healthy format. I know it looks exciting playing some crazy strong generals, but kicking out all rest because it looks balanced in having 7-8 ultra powerful commanders (Vial in it), I wouldn't be too happy to play on that type of format.
I find it so funny that people think they can deal with Oloro, Erayo, Zur, Edric or Derevi... Weren't you guys around when these decks were played?
I find it so funny that you think that unbanning these would make a difference. At the moment DC is like:
Play Partner(Vial), Breya, Geist, Titania or Zurgo.
If the commanders you are referring to were unbanned it would just be 5 other commanders that would rule. Not that its better, but it aint worse either. And its not different. Its still broken.
EDIT: Actually, I would much rather play in a meta with Oloro, Erayo, Zur, Edric and Derevi than the meta we are seing now.
I find it so funny that people think they can deal with Oloro, Erayo, Zur, Edric or Derevi... Weren't you guys around when these decks were played?
The format has changed so much since back then. Bitterblossum turn 2 was good enough to justify banning 1 cmc tutors. Doran, clique, and sigg were once top decks. On MTG top 8 every single deck over 1% has a post zendikar general. In the 20 HP meta only jenera is 2% and is pre zendikar.
I could see yisan, and edric getting looked at. Zur and derevi should never come off though. I would argue that Vial Smasher with partner is better than Edric.
We're talking about a 30 life format though, right?
So it wouldn't be a format where those 5 dominate.
The format has changed, for sure, but Oloro, Erayo, Zur, Edric and Derevi are just broken. Edric feels the safest, mainly because it has little creature removal, but in a 30 life format it's so easy to make your elves connect ONCE and take over from there. So yeah, MAYBE Edric is testable, although I really think it's not safe at all.
But the other 4 are just so broken they don't even deserve a chance unfortunately. If really baffles me that people could even think otherwise. Those decks won't give our current Top 5 even a chance. MAYBE Vial could challenge them (although with 30 life it's more difficult) but that says more about Vial than about the banned commanders.
This is good news. Haven't played Edric, Zur, Derevi in awhile
It's funny because that is the exact meta we will be in if they just reset the banlist.
Doh, my bad, should have put a '/sarcasm' tag
Some of the older French players will remember, but literally Zur, Edric, Derevi and Oloro dominated the metagame for years (much less so for the Commander 15' gens). These generals are TOXIC to the meta and I don't mean that lightly. They are overpowered, not fun to play against and have certain matchups that are unwinnable. That being said, I am all for a 'free-4-all' test and let them fight it out. My guess is that Zur, Oloro, Derevi would still be Top 3 contenders.
However, I am excited about the prospect of Marath back. I missed her :3 Also, Tasigur being back is interesting too; of all the generals currently banned in French, he was one of the few I thought needed more time to settle out.
French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
This is good news. Haven't played Edric, Zur, Derevi in awhile
It's funny because that is the exact meta we will be in if they just reset the banlist.
Doh, my bad, should have put a '/sarcasm' tag
Some of the older French players will remember, but literally Zur, Edric, Derevi and Oloro dominated the metagame for years (much less so for the Commander 15' gens). These generals are TOXIC to the meta and I don't mean that lightly. They are overpowered, not fun to play against and have certain matchups that are unwinnable. That being said, I am all for a 'free-4-all' test and let them fight it out. My guess is that Zur, Oloro, Derevi would still be Top 3 contenders.
However, I am excited about the prospect of Marath back. I missed her :3 Also, Tasigur being back is interesting too; of all the generals currently banned in French, he was one of the few I thought needed more time to settle out.
Oh, I remember the Edric vs the World days too. Near 40% saturation levels. It was ridiculous. And Derevi should never ever ever see the light of day. I wouldn't even play multiplayer with someone as that deck at the table. I played that deck FROM STOCK even, and it ran multiple people. Just absurd.
This is good news. Haven't played Edric, Zur, Derevi in awhile
It's funny because that is the exact meta we will be in if they just reset the banlist.
Doh, my bad, should have put a '/sarcasm' tag
Some of the older French players will remember, but literally Zur, Edric, Derevi and Oloro dominated the metagame for years (much less so for the Commander 15' gens). These generals are TOXIC to the meta and I don't mean that lightly. They are overpowered, not fun to play against and have certain matchups that are unwinnable. That being said, I am all for a 'free-4-all' test and let them fight it out. My guess is that Zur, Oloro, Derevi would still be Top 3 contenders.
However, I am excited about the prospect of Marath back. I missed her :3 Also, Tasigur being back is interesting too; of all the generals currently banned in French, he was one of the few I thought needed more time to settle out.
Oloro and derevi are similar to vial in that they give you an advantage by changing the rules of the game.
I'm glad wizards is planning on taking over 1vs 1 edh so maybe mistakes like these will not be repeated.
Does anyone else feel that while the meta is pretty diverse now it just feels boring. 90% of my games feel decided by the match up.
Oloro and derevi are similar to vial in that they give you an advantage by changing the rules of the game.
I'm glad wizards is planning on taking over 1vs 1 edh so maybe mistakes like these will not be repeated.
Does anyone else feel that while the meta is pretty diverse now it just feels boring. 90% of my games feel decided by the match up.
I agree completely. The format at 20 life is very much "do you have the answer literally right now or do you die?" 90% of the time. Extremely matchup dependent. This effect is compounded by the fact that we run one-of answers in a 99 card deck.
Oloro and derevi are similar to vial in that they give you an advantage by changing the rules of the game.
I'm glad wizards is planning on taking over 1vs 1 edh so maybe mistakes like these will not be repeated.
Does anyone else feel that while the meta is pretty diverse now it just feels boring. 90% of my games feel decided by the match up.
I agree completely. The format at 20 life is very much "do you have the answer literally right now or do you die?" 90% of the time. Extremely matchup dependent. This effect is compounded by the fact that we run one-of answers in a 99 card deck.
Like I said before, fast aggro resembles combo a lot for that very reason (not a coincidence it took a huge chunk of Combo's presence in the meta).
About Oloro and Derevi, I understand what you mean, but no, Vial doesn't forfeit rules like Derevi and Oloro do (and maybe Tasigur). Those are completely different things. Not saying it's not oppressive or broken, but it doesn't break the rules. Partner does, Vial doesn't.
Vial has the partner mechanic so of course it breaks the rules. Your argument is flawed. Thats like saying Tasigur doesnt break the rules, delve does.
But Tasigur DOESN'T break the rules. Tasi on his own without Delve is fine. That's a mechanic problem, not a card problem. The same goes for Vial and Partner.
Vial has the partner mechanic so of course it breaks the rules. Your argument is flawed. Thats like saying Tasigur doesnt break the rules, delve does.
Tasigur doesnt break the rules it just gives you an alternative cost. Vial or more accurately the partner mechanic gives you 9 cards in your starting hand as opposed to 8. I said vial because it is the only good card with partner. Of course partner is the broken part.
I could live with Marath, Tasigur, Edric and Oloro, but Yisan, Zur, Darevi and Erayo need to stay go forever.
Rofellos is also banned, nobody seems to care, we have Selvala.
Vial has the partner mechanic so of course it breaks the rules. Your argument is flawed. Thats like saying Tasigur doesnt break the rules, delve does.
But Tasigur DOESN'T break the rules. Tasi on his own without Delve is fine. That's a mechanic problem, not a card problem. The same goes for Vial and Partner.
But Tasigur DOES break the rules. Abilities are only relevant when they appear on cards. Tasigur without delve is not a card that exists, and so it cannot be evaluated without also considering Delve.
Delve also breaks the rules only in certain contexts. For example, Tasigur is a legendary creature, which means it can be played as commander. In the 99, it doesn't break the rules, but as commander it does: delve allows you to cheat the commander tax, similarly to Derevi, meaning you are not penalized for playing your commander twice.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that Tasigur is an Unfair commander. But he does break the rules of the game.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Vial has the partner mechanic so of course it breaks the rules. Your argument is flawed. Thats like saying Tasigur doesnt break the rules, delve does.
But Tasigur DOESN'T break the rules. Tasi on his own without Delve is fine. That's a mechanic problem, not a card problem. The same goes for Vial and Partner.
But Tasigur DOES break the rules. Abilities are only relevant when they appear on cards. Tasigur without delve is not a card that exists, and so it cannot be evaluated without also considering Delve.
Delve also breaks the rules only in certain contexts. For example, Tasigur is a legendary creature, which means it can be played as commander. In the 99, it doesn't break the rules, but as commander it does: delve allows you to cheat the commander tax, similarly to Derevi, meaning you are not penalized for playing your commander twice.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that Tasigur is an Unfair commander. But he does break the rules of the game.
This is exactly what I tried to point out. And I am not saying anything about Vial or Tasigur being unfair or anything either. I was simply trying to state the fact if you wanna discuss what's fair and what's not, you can't come in and say stuff like "Tasigur doesn't break the rules, his delve ability does" or "Vial doesnt break the rules, his partner mechanic does" thats just inconsistent.
Vial does not break the format rules, every Partner commander does. You can't treat this as the same thing. This is an important difference because if you want to ban Vial "because it breaks the rules", you should better tax the Partner mechanic instead. Vial is not good because it breaks the rules. It's good because it's broken. If it cost UBR and didn't have partner, it would still be good.
Take Delve away from Tasi, or take Oloro's or Derevi's ability away and they're quite unimpressive commanders. Take Partner away from Vial (but keep him grixis) and he's still quite awesome.
But take partner off and lose 14 commanders, partner breaks the rules, but with 14 commanders that are much less opressive than Vial, no other partner commander can survive alone, Bruse which is considered(debatable) the second power in partner commanders is not a good boros commander alone, at 30HP he will be very very awful.
Someone one day suggested something that would be perfect, but I don't know if wizards will actually do a specific rule like that, but it would be the ideal to diverse even more the meta. Ban Vial as a partner commander, which means he can't be used as partner, but can be used alone, the rest remains untouched. It would be a specific ban, like "ban as commander" but made for Vial, that would end all the fight in "change partner rules", "ban vial". What I would be very unhappy if it happens, is change the partner rules or extinguish it because of Vial without having any thoughts of the other 14 commanders that many players want to brew in the new format and I am pretty sure they won't be oppressive.
This might be the first time that we can have a Boros commander be Tier 1 or close to on 30HP, and I am very sure Bruse won't be opressive, this will lead closer to the "color balance" DC wanted years ago without messing with the life points, also Vial alone is a strong Rakdos commander, I think this would be a very interesting approach to the banlist. Partner aggro is an awesome way to fight control at 30HP where control dominated, maybe even the DC comitte would think again about life change if C16 came before.
Vial does not break the format rules, every Partner commander does. You can't treat this as the same thing. This is an important difference because if you want to ban Vial "because it breaks the rules", you should better tax the Partner mechanic instead. Vial is not good because it breaks the rules. It's good because it's broken. If it cost UBR and didn't have partner, it would still be good.
Take Delve away from Tasi, or take Oloro's or Derevi's ability away and they're quite unimpressive commanders. Take Partner away from Vial (but keep him grixis) and he's still quite awesome.
Take partner away from Vial but keep him grixis and he will still be awesome. Yeah you are right, but once again you are talking about cards that doesnt exist. So there is no point in discussing that.
Boros partner is not as strong on 30HP that is the point, its even debatable if he is like a tier 1.5 or a tier 1. This is the way to play a true aggro deck on 30hp, I would be very sad if that goes away with the new banlist.
For example, I can see boros partner having a very good matchup against Geist, Draw-Go controls and control in general because of the extra card and its speed, but I can not see it having a positive matchup against big creature/mana decks like Maelstrom Wanderer, Selvala Mono-G, Nissa, Animar. The 10HP cushion helps those decks exist, and their late game is better than boros. That is why Boros partner MUST be in the 30HP format, it will help to threaten the draw-go controls that were abundant.
Vial does not break the format rules, every Partner commander does. You can't treat this as the same thing. This is an important difference because if you want to ban Vial "because it breaks the rules", you should better tax the Partner mechanic instead. Vial is not good because it breaks the rules. It's good because it's broken. If it cost UBR and didn't have partner, it would still be good.
Take Delve away from Tasi, or take Oloro's or Derevi's ability away and they're quite unimpressive commanders. Take Partner away from Vial (but keep him grixis) and he's still quite awesome.
Take partner away from Vial but keep him grixis and he will still be awesome. Yeah you are right, but once again you are talking about cards that doesnt exist. So there is no point in discussing that.
I'm using that as an example of why Vial itself doesn't break the rules. I'm not even arguing too much on this since it's basically a terminology difference. I thought it would be easier to understand my point that way, but I'm not trying to discuss non-existing cards. Come on.
@blinketto, 20hp is different. With 30hp I feel partner is needed to make aggro more present. At least I wouldn't "ban" the ability from the start but instead watch how it develops.
When in this forum i was discussing about Partner's Mechanic we were talking about 20pv format to be exact ; also the top8 i've posted before is from 20pv.
Obviously in 30pv the thing will be different, even if i think the mechanic is still wrong. The tax should shared between the generals but we will see how it goes.
@Raizen884
If we were to have a shared tax between generals, would that mean that your second commander always comes with a 2-mana premium? For example, I cast Vial Smasher for 3, then Kraum for 7 (5 + 2-mana tax, since it's the second time I'm casting a general from the command zone)? This feels a bit weird to me.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
When in this forum i was discussing about Partner's Mechanic we were talking about 20pv format to be exact ; also the top8 i've posted before is from 20pv.
Obviously in 30pv the thing will be different, even if i think the mechanic is still wrong. The tax should shared between the generals but we will see how it goes.
@Raizen884
If we were to have a shared tax between generals, would that mean that your second commander always comes with a 2-mana premium? For example, I cast Vial Smasher for 3, then Kraum for 7 (5 + 2-mana tax, since it's the second time I'm casting a general from the command zone)? This feels a bit weird to me.
No, I'd say Vial is three, Kraum is five (to use your example) on their first casts, then Vial is five and Kraum is seven on their second casts.............wait, that's what we have now.
Guess that's why we have it this way, this makes sense.
When in this forum i was discussing about Partner's Mechanic we were talking about 20pv format to be exact ; also the top8 i've posted before is from 20pv.
Obviously in 30pv the thing will be different, even if i think the mechanic is still wrong. The tax should shared between the generals but we will see how it goes.
@Raizen884
It's the fact that this topic is specifically about the new 30 life format that made me confused. Sorry.
When in this forum i was discussing about Partner's Mechanic we were talking about 20pv format to be exact ; also the top8 i've posted before is from 20pv.
Obviously in 30pv the thing will be different, even if i think the mechanic is still wrong. The tax should shared between the generals but we will see how it goes.
@Raizen884
If we were to have a shared tax between generals, would that mean that your second commander always comes with a 2-mana premium? For example, I cast Vial Smasher for 3, then Kraum for 7 (5 + 2-mana tax, since it's the second time I'm casting a general from the command zone)? This feels a bit weird to me.
Sounds good to me, it's better than just banning partner altogether imo.
Not sure I agree. You effectively are just adding a color to your commander for free. Taking Vial Smasher as the example:
Why would you ever cast Kraum if it's first cast would cost you 7 mana (assuming you had already cast Vial)? You would just replay Vial for 5 once it died and be done with it.
not sure how this shared taxing translates into other strategies. but on the subject of VS, if we agree that grixis Vial is broken, then we should also agree that the shared tax would not fix this particular problem.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Wouldn't it though? This would nerf Vial for sure. Being able to cast Kraum and VS back and fourth is a huge strength of the deck. It makes the deck more suseptable to removal. Im fine with Kraum just adding blue without ever getting cast. I'd rather play that than not play VS at all.
We're talking about a 30 life format though, right?
So it wouldn't be a format where those 5 dominate.
The format has changed, for sure, but Oloro, Erayo, Zur, Edric and Derevi are just broken. Edric feels the safest, mainly because it has little creature removal, but in a 30 life format it's so easy to make your elves connect ONCE and take over from there. So yeah, MAYBE Edric is testable, although I really think it's not safe at all.
But the other 4 are just so broken they don't even deserve a chance unfortunately. If really baffles me that people could even think otherwise. Those decks won't give our current Top 5 even a chance. MAYBE Vial could challenge them (although with 30 life it's more difficult) but that says more about Vial than about the banned commanders.
Doh, my bad, should have put a '/sarcasm' tag
Some of the older French players will remember, but literally Zur, Edric, Derevi and Oloro dominated the metagame for years (much less so for the Commander 15' gens). These generals are TOXIC to the meta and I don't mean that lightly. They are overpowered, not fun to play against and have certain matchups that are unwinnable. That being said, I am all for a 'free-4-all' test and let them fight it out. My guess is that Zur, Oloro, Derevi would still be Top 3 contenders.
However, I am excited about the prospect of Marath back. I missed her :3 Also, Tasigur being back is interesting too; of all the generals currently banned in French, he was one of the few I thought needed more time to settle out.
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
Oh, I remember the Edric vs the World days too. Near 40% saturation levels. It was ridiculous. And Derevi should never ever ever see the light of day. I wouldn't even play multiplayer with someone as that deck at the table. I played that deck FROM STOCK even, and it ran multiple people. Just absurd.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Oloro and derevi are similar to vial in that they give you an advantage by changing the rules of the game.
I'm glad wizards is planning on taking over 1vs 1 edh so maybe mistakes like these will not be repeated.
Does anyone else feel that while the meta is pretty diverse now it just feels boring. 90% of my games feel decided by the match up.
I agree completely. The format at 20 life is very much "do you have the answer literally right now or do you die?" 90% of the time. Extremely matchup dependent. This effect is compounded by the fact that we run one-of answers in a 99 card deck.
Like I said before, fast aggro resembles combo a lot for that very reason (not a coincidence it took a huge chunk of Combo's presence in the meta).
About Oloro and Derevi, I understand what you mean, but no, Vial doesn't forfeit rules like Derevi and Oloro do (and maybe Tasigur). Those are completely different things. Not saying it's not oppressive or broken, but it doesn't break the rules. Partner does, Vial doesn't.
But Tasigur DOESN'T break the rules. Tasi on his own without Delve is fine. That's a mechanic problem, not a card problem. The same goes for Vial and Partner.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Tasigur doesnt break the rules it just gives you an alternative cost. Vial or more accurately the partner mechanic gives you 9 cards in your starting hand as opposed to 8. I said vial because it is the only good card with partner. Of course partner is the broken part.
Rofellos is also banned, nobody seems to care, we have Selvala.
But Tasigur DOES break the rules. Abilities are only relevant when they appear on cards. Tasigur without delve is not a card that exists, and so it cannot be evaluated without also considering Delve.
Delve also breaks the rules only in certain contexts. For example, Tasigur is a legendary creature, which means it can be played as commander. In the 99, it doesn't break the rules, but as commander it does: delve allows you to cheat the commander tax, similarly to Derevi, meaning you are not penalized for playing your commander twice.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that Tasigur is an Unfair commander. But he does break the rules of the game.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
This is exactly what I tried to point out. And I am not saying anything about Vial or Tasigur being unfair or anything either. I was simply trying to state the fact if you wanna discuss what's fair and what's not, you can't come in and say stuff like "Tasigur doesn't break the rules, his delve ability does" or "Vial doesnt break the rules, his partner mechanic does" thats just inconsistent.
Take Delve away from Tasi, or take Oloro's or Derevi's ability away and they're quite unimpressive commanders. Take Partner away from Vial (but keep him grixis) and he's still quite awesome.
Someone one day suggested something that would be perfect, but I don't know if wizards will actually do a specific rule like that, but it would be the ideal to diverse even more the meta. Ban Vial as a partner commander, which means he can't be used as partner, but can be used alone, the rest remains untouched. It would be a specific ban, like "ban as commander" but made for Vial, that would end all the fight in "change partner rules", "ban vial". What I would be very unhappy if it happens, is change the partner rules or extinguish it because of Vial without having any thoughts of the other 14 commanders that many players want to brew in the new format and I am pretty sure they won't be oppressive.
This might be the first time that we can have a Boros commander be Tier 1 or close to on 30HP, and I am very sure Bruse won't be opressive, this will lead closer to the "color balance" DC wanted years ago without messing with the life points, also Vial alone is a strong Rakdos commander, I think this would be a very interesting approach to the banlist. Partner aggro is an awesome way to fight control at 30HP where control dominated, maybe even the DC comitte would think again about life change if C16 came before.
Take partner away from Vial but keep him grixis and he will still be awesome. Yeah you are right, but once again you are talking about cards that doesnt exist. So there is no point in discussing that.
For example, I can see boros partner having a very good matchup against Geist, Draw-Go controls and control in general because of the extra card and its speed, but I can not see it having a positive matchup against big creature/mana decks like Maelstrom Wanderer, Selvala Mono-G, Nissa, Animar. The 10HP cushion helps those decks exist, and their late game is better than boros. That is why Boros partner MUST be in the 30HP format, it will help to threaten the draw-go controls that were abundant.
I'm using that as an example of why Vial itself doesn't break the rules. I'm not even arguing too much on this since it's basically a terminology difference. I thought it would be easier to understand my point that way, but I'm not trying to discuss non-existing cards. Come on.
@blinketto, 20hp is different. With 30hp I feel partner is needed to make aggro more present. At least I wouldn't "ban" the ability from the start but instead watch how it develops.
If we were to have a shared tax between generals, would that mean that your second commander always comes with a 2-mana premium? For example, I cast Vial Smasher for 3, then Kraum for 7 (5 + 2-mana tax, since it's the second time I'm casting a general from the command zone)? This feels a bit weird to me.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
No, I'd say Vial is three, Kraum is five (to use your example) on their first casts, then Vial is five and Kraum is seven on their second casts.............wait, that's what we have now.
Guess that's why we have it this way, this makes sense.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
It's the fact that this topic is specifically about the new 30 life format that made me confused. Sorry.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Why would you ever cast Kraum if it's first cast would cost you 7 mana (assuming you had already cast Vial)? You would just replay Vial for 5 once it died and be done with it.
not sure how this shared taxing translates into other strategies. but on the subject of VS, if we agree that grixis Vial is broken, then we should also agree that the shared tax would not fix this particular problem.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)