I've only played one official event (10 person) and a couple test matches with my build so far, but I'm a huge mana dork advocate. I didn't lose a game where Leo came down turn 2. Maybe that will change with further testing. I'm currently considering going more control and building in a Doomsday pile to win instantly once I have a lock, soft or otherwise, and the dorks wouldn't fit as well into that plan.
Realy need to get more testing in and wanna know what others feel about the 1 drop mana accel and also the amount of lands?
I am currently running 40, not sure if that is optimal?
I'm running birds, deathrite, exploration and burgeoning as ramp, but again that's because my list contains a lot of land focus, and even then I was incredibly underwhelmed by burgeoning.
I'm running 40 lands (38 + maze of ith and dark depths) + birds/deathrite as mana sources. I did have a bit of trouble with mana base when I played but that was mostly due to the amount of utility lands I was playing. There was only one game out of 7 that I had trouble with the amount of land I was getting, and my issues were color-based. I still need to tweak it a bit to make it really consistent but I felt overall very happy with the general set up. deck is pretty much straight busted and I would not expect to have it around for more than 4 months or so.
Ah right, wel I don't own nor play Dark Depths nor Maze, so guess that solves the probable difference in mana Accel vs land count. I have a small land theme in there as wel, with Titania and 'DaToad' my nickname for Gitrog... also play PrimeTime, so that together works as a synergy lets say, but other then that I don't have much to do with a land theme, mostly just 'Goodstuff' with discard and counter/control elements.
Have no exploration nor burgeoning and in 1 vs 1 I don't think burgeoning would be that great anyways, in chaos it wil probably be a lot better, due to multiple players playing lands and making you able to play a lot of lands in a single turn, on turn 1 vs 3 other players you can ramp to 4 lands (if they all play 1 land, if anyone plays exploration with extra lands its more and not likely they don't play a land), but then you would have 4 mana and a near empty hand though, so not sure how good that would be still... unless you go straight busted Leovold into like Day's turn 2/3 lets say... ^^
Btw that means you don't play bloom tender? any reason why you aren't running that, if you aren't? I think its probably the best ramp creature in a 3 color deck. (at least with your commander out, I mean with Leovold in play she makes 3 mana) but that is my opinion. I only play Deathrite more to be able to answer things in graves at least to some extent. Was thinking of adding Ooze, but with the counters in the deck dun think I wanna add it with the limited space in the deck for 'specific answers'.
my land theme is basically exploration, burgeoning, gitrog, crucible, raven's crime, life from the loam and crop rotation, with the stage/depths combo and a few other utility lands (2 cyclers, bojuka bog, wasteland, maze, dust bowl, tec edge, geier reach and blighted fen). It turns primetime into what is basically a 2 turn clock regardless of game state, or allows me to set up other locks/removal if necessary. I do feel the need to tweak it a bit to add at least 1 more colored source, maybe 2 as I was having a bit of trouble with that, probably dropping the tec edge for another dual land. The land theme also allows me to run intuion as a pseudo-finisher, although it works in other capacities as well.
EDIT: there's also a traverse the ulvenwald in there too that I'm testing out. It works pretty well so far.
Exploration is consistently super solid, and burgeoning should function as a slightly worse version of it in theory (allows turn 2 leos). I have yet to draw it in the early game or in a situation where I have a bunch of extra lands in hand though, so it requires more testing. It's definitely the weakest of the land elements though.
Bloom tender is good, but 1. I don't actually own one right now, 2. It doesn't allow turn 2 leo and 3. I'm a little wary of the fact that it's more or less a dead card without leo out. In a dedicated ramp deck I would be 100% for it, but as is it doesn't seem necessary, merely one of many good options. If leo were 4 mana I would say differently though.
I can post a full list with some commentary tomorrow or so, but it's a bit more towards the g/b control side of things. I really like the land synergies as a wincon in BUG (and to a lesser extent in jund and g/b) simply because they're so hard for other control decks to interact with; they can't be countered, are quite easy to search up, are much harder to destroy once in play, are much harder to be discarded, and are easily recurred if they are. that said, they do have the potential to be a bit slow against aggro decks, can make early land drops somewhat wonky, make it really hard to beat blood moon, and are often super terrible to draw in the early game (although getting a turn 4 marit lage can also be pretty great), so YMMV.
I'm not playing jitte, but I am playing swords of feast & famine and fire & ice. Jitte is also quite good though, and it's hard to argue against it.
I too am playing only about 10-12 creatures (plus bitterblossom, although I'm unsure how long that will stay). The nice thing about swords is that they turn all of them into legit game winning threats.
spellskite is another one of those cards that is never really bad, and serves a lot of really important roles in the deck. I don't personally own one, but I assume I would be playing it if I did, or at the very least it would be somewhere around card 101-105. Crop rotation is only worth it if you have more than one utility land, but honestly geier reach is so potent here that it might be not be a bad idea to test it out. Back when I was playing a very similar tasigur list I found that it was either amazing or utterly useless. The ability to get things like wasteland or maze at instant speed is quite good, but when those cards aren't good then it's worse than a dead card.
I'll be playing in a tournament tomorrow and have been testing a bit through the week, tweaking a little bit here and there. Here's my current list. I'd be very interested in hearing some of your opinions so we can start getting a "core" card list going.
While I think Leo can support a much more controlling list (he's part UB after all), he seems to lend himself to tempo more in the games I've played. It's my opinion that if you want to play control their are better options, but I would be hard pressed to find a commander that fits flexible tempo as well.
I agree that triple blue is a real strain. I also wasn't nuts about having to hold four mana up.
Thanks for chiming in about FaF and Jitte. I'll give them a try.
Wel true, 4 mana is quite a bit I can imagine, but its such a big spell that it can realy do quite a bit at times... being able to either counter, bounce any permanent or tap down creatures if needed and it can also replace itself with a draw, imo its overall to powerfull not to run it, but I guess others feel it's not worth the effort, I don't own unsubstantiate that would prolly be my replacement if I had it. (they arent realy the same, but that is the closest card to it imo..)
And yeah, Jitte costs less to cast and overall can do more impactfull things, kill tokens, turn the counters into life vs red as example or just downright pump stoof... I have both SoFaF and Jitte right now, am playing Jitte, cut SoFaF, cause was imo just little to mana intencive/slow, though the untap clause is realy powerfull... (might add it again, am a bit in dubio about what to play...)
So far my control version seemed to overall work better then the one I have made it into with the more mana accel and more creature heavy one.
I'm glad to hear you're having success with your build!
All your points about Cryptic are valid. It felt very strange when I cut it from my list because of how flexible and powerful it was. I'll try to keep it in mind during my rounds today. Another complication is that my meta is very blue combo oriented so I've found that being more aggressive is the way to go, since my list is not optimized to out control them. Looking back at your previous posts it seems like you are more blue heavy with Teferi so the triple blue is probably not an issue for you where I've had trouble with it.
I was able to go 3-0 at my LGS duel commander tournament today. In fact, I didn't lose a single game. So yea... that feels pretty good. Another thanks for the advice about SoFaF and Jitte. I Cut SoFI and Complicate from my original list to make room for both of them today, and they really did work.
Round 1 vs. Krenko, Mob Boss
My opponent kept some suboptimal hands and I was able to capitalize on him stumbling a bit. I drew Jitte both games, allowing me to control the amount of goblins he was able to keep in play. Not sure what to take away from this one since the aggro plan did not really get to be executed.
Round 2 vs. Narset, Enlightened Master
Game one I was on the play and was able to turn two a Leo into turn 3 Windfall. Leo is able to ride counter magic for a victory. Game two was much more what I expect from a blue deck where we trade resources one for one until I bait out a counter with neonatal Jace (Vryn's Prodigy) and stick a Liliana of the Veil. His list is very creature lite, so I am able to just tick up Lili until she ultimates and decimate his lands. Then Leo comes down and it's lights out.
Round 3 vs. Teferi, Temporal Archmage
I've played this match before and I mulligan to five to find a more aggressive hand. I settle on one that has three land a windfall and a Vendilion Clique. It's not great, but going to four seems miserable. I get my break when I cast clique and find only one counterspell in his hand at the end of his turn. An argument could be made for countering the clique and not giving me the info, because when I untapped I jammed Leo as fast as possible. I didn't really draw any counter magic the rest of the game so it was really tight worrying about Cyclonic Rift, but I did draw SoFaF, which shone like a beautiful star against a deck trying to hold cards in its hand and wait to combo. That clock was able to put him away. Game two went much more in line with the plan where a dork was able to power out Leo on turn two and I countered the important spells. I let him resolve a lot of mana acceleration, but countered the business spells. It was still close, but I was able to clock him fast enough to get the kill a turn before he could have generated infinite mana after top decking The Chain Veil.
I know that this is a pretty superficial summary, but thanks for reading, and if anyone has any questions I'd be happy to reply.
cards I would like to fit in but haven't quite found a place for them yet, in no particular order:
fact or fiction
brainstorm
dark confidant
dispel
logic knot
dismember
tamiyo
garruk relentless
the jace from SOI
jitte
ashiok
phyrexian metamorph
gilded drake
pieces of the puzzle (at least for testing, I find it to be highly underrated in spell dense decks that want to use their GY)
another edict effect, probably far//away but maybe also to the slaughter
another sweeper. Possibly crux of fate? I'm a bit unsure of what next best the best sweeper is after damnation and toxic deluge. This is mostly just for intuition purposes, so that I'm not forced to rely on snapcaster and ewitness as my third card. That said, I do also have deed.
maybe 1 more mana dork?
another land, maybe 2
cards that I am unsure about:
ugin: I am a massive fan of this guy and his ability to just flat out end games on the spot against many decks, but I wonder if it's a bit too top heavy for this deck
the second sword: not 100% sure that both are necessary, but I don't have any complaints thus far. would likely replace with jitte
teferi's puzzle box: the lock seems amazing in theory, but I have been unable to get it thusfar. needs more testing
burgeoning: I have yet to draw it in the early game (or really ever when I have extra lands to get in off of it). I want it to be exploration-lite but we'll see. Would probably replace with a land.
tec edge: I found that I'm playing probably 1 too many colorless sources, and I think this one is ever so slightly worse than dustbowl. would replace with something like a yavimaya coast, or maybe a vivid marsh
traverse the ulvenwald: I haven't had a ton of trouble getting to delirium, but this just needs more testing. It also overlaps a lot with crop rotation and I'm not sure I need both
crop rotation: see above. it's not always that useful (if my utility lands aren't what I need) and it overlaps quite a bit with traverse. I do think it's a bit weaker than traverse as well (as it's not amazing at color fixing) but instant speed is really nice and has saved me more than once in the past.
gitrog: I have yet to actually cast him. I know that he's quite good (I've played against him in standard a little) and he should be pretty bonkers in this particular deck, but in the games I've played so far I've always either had something better to do with my mana, or I never wanted to tutor for him over something like primetime or even ewitness.
anyways, that's what I have so far. any comments/suggestions?
To answer the damnation question, options are in no particular order for possible best options depending on choice/preferrance:
Languish (weakness can't kill anything above 4 toughness)
Living Death (can be a bit tricky to time right and costs 5 mana, am prolly gonne test this one out myself, don't even own a damnation :S)
Pernicious Deed (a bit mana heavy against certain decks to kill their board, but can be good vs more agro decks)
Those are the 3 I would personaly consider the best 3 next to the 2 you mentioned, wich are both better.
I really really dislike living death in non-reanimator lists, especially control ones, because it plays so poorly with other sweepers/spot removal. That combined with the fact that there are several reanimator lists (2 meren) in my meta means that it's especially out. I would play it in something like sidisi in a heartbeat, but here it just seems so bad. I'm already playing deed. I normally agree that languish is choice #3 in a non-monoblack deck (otherwise I would say mutilate), but in my particular meta there's enough decks playing big stuff that is out of languish range that it seems a bit subpar. I suppose I'll just stick with what I have now and see if I actually do need any more.
Why not use cards like windfall, whispering madness and teferi's puzzle box?
Also howling mine effects seem good here?
You have to be careful not to use too many cards that are garbage without your general in play. If you aren't then you can run into the problem where your opponent just has to keep Leovold out of play to counter your strategy. Control is already going to be gunning for Leovold as it is, if he never resolves you don't want to have a bunch cards that require him to be in play in hand. It's better to just have a bunch of tutors in hand that can eithor search for one of the few Timetwisters in your deck when Leo is in play or can grab something else when he isn't.
The other reason is you dont really need to play 2 windfalls in a game. Once your opponents hand is gone the value is diminished.
First off, I wouldn't stress too much about not having access to one or two cards if you decide to go with the "good stuff" version. Sure, better cards are better cards, but learning a deck that is 98% optimized is still time well spent.
As far as how to play this version, it can be kind of tricky. You're a tempo deck, and that means learning to identify roll assignment in each of your games and even switching within a game. Sometimes you will be the aggressor, sometimes you'll be the control deck. A general rule of thumb is that this deck can't out control the control decks and we aren't faster than the aggro decks, so you will usually take the opposing role. What we have going for us is raw power in card quality and the draw our general provide us. Most of the time trading resources with our opponent should be in our favor either mana investment wise or card count wise.
All that aside, our best starts are landing a proactive threat (Leo, Confidant, Clique, etc.) and then protecting it with counter magic and hand disruption. This is why the mana dorks are so important. They let us get out our game winning threats early before our opponent has time to have counter magic up or a board state. This will usually force our opponent to react to what we are doing rather than progress their game plan. We won't often be ahead by a lot, but it's enough to win. Leovold is perfect for keeping us ahead on cards. If that line isn't available, we can fall back on our discard package and try to empty our opponent's hand. Being a "good stuff" deck, our top decks are usually better than the opponent's. It can also give us time to assemble the appropriate win con, be it a puzzle box, a loam cephalid lock, a time spiral or depths.
The windfall effects are very effective in a majority of matches. If you are able to turn two Leo into turn three Windfall/Day's Undoing it often feels like a free win.
As far as hymn vs duress, I've only played duress in the deck so far, but my gut feeling is that the information, the pinpoint disruption and one less mana fit better within the tempo shell. I could be wrong though. Hymn is incredibly powerful, and there is nothing like a card that literally reads "two for one your opponent."
I have to give credit to FearDReaper for their original list, which I started off of.
Wel it is definitely meta dependable, thus why I said might be a bit tricky about the living death.
Languish is decent in most cases, but yeah bigstuff it aint gonne fly... don't think we have reanimator here though in our meta, though I have no clue, cause not everyone that is gonne enter next tourney is from my direct meta... (they are also from other places, people I rarely play aganist otherwise)
You wanted suggestions, I gave them, but think might be better to play none of them considering your meta. ^^
Edit:
Btw, why you play ponder/preordain over brainstorm, imo brainstorm is the best of those 3.
I dislike living death in this style of control deck in general, since having to bring back threats that you killed earlier, either with spot removal or a different sweeper, is all kinds of terrible. Often you're sweeping the board because either you're going to die, they have something out that you can't kill with spot removal, or you're behind, and living death doesn't really remedy any of those situations if you've been using spot removal or other sweepers up until the point you cast it. That said, it definitely has it's place, especially in more creature heavy based control decks or something that has significant grave hate (anafenza, etc.), but I don't think that spot is in a tempo/control shell where it's very difficult to end up ahead after using it.
I find ponder and preordain to be better than brainstorm (although brainstorm is a very close third) for a couple reasons, the main one being that you don't end up brainstorm locked. While brainstorm is undoubtedly a great card, I find that in DC/EDH I tend to lack the critical mass of shuffles that you would get in something like legacy that make brainstorm so powerful there. Brainstorm has the highest upside of the cantrips, but it also has arguably the biggest downside and is a bit less consistent than the others. Leovold does help alleviate that somewhat since he does tend to draw you a couple extra cards, but since I have a lot of other similar effects as it is (JTMS, sylvan) and since I'm crushed for space to begin with I had to cut something. It is definitely on the short list of cards that I would like to fit in, although I think I would try to get fact or fiction in first.
I saw some guy copy pasta a standard Tasigur control list and smash face with it online. Like the dude wasn't even playing Spiral or Twister, and he still had Upheaval (which he never cast) and still destroyed my Jace with Forbid (without Loam) and a Leo on board just being a pain in the arse.
Assuming you already know that's it mostly there for Intuition, in Sultai you can tutor up Bojuka Bog and Ravens Crime with Loam + lands to attrition the control player to death.
Edit: necro'ed. Having access to Bog through Loam+Intuition is important against Jace, Titania and Karador. I've seen Gitrog Wasteland their own Bog and play it again vs Jace. No reason this can't be an Intuition pile here either, although it is a turn slower without Exploration effects.
Also if you Intuition for Loam, Wasteland, Lonely Sandbar and have an Exploration effect you can dredge Loam with Lonely Sandbar's cycling and cast Loam twice the same turn and double wasteland.
my land theme is basically exploration, burgeoning, gitrog, crucible, raven's crime, life from the loam and crop rotation, with the stage/depths combo and a few other utility lands (2 cyclers, bojuka bog, wasteland, maze, dust bowl, tec edge, geier reach and blighted fen). It turns primetime into what is basically a 2 turn clock regardless of game state, or allows me to set up other locks/removal if necessary. I do feel the need to tweak it a bit to add at least 1 more colored source, maybe 2 as I was having a bit of trouble with that, probably dropping the tec edge for another dual land. The land theme also allows me to run intuion as a pseudo-finisher, although it works in other capacities as well.
EDIT: there's also a traverse the ulvenwald in there too that I'm testing out. It works pretty well so far.
Exploration is consistently super solid, and burgeoning should function as a slightly worse version of it in theory (allows turn 2 leos). I have yet to draw it in the early game or in a situation where I have a bunch of extra lands in hand though, so it requires more testing. It's definitely the weakest of the land elements though.
Bloom tender is good, but 1. I don't actually own one right now, 2. It doesn't allow turn 2 leo and 3. I'm a little wary of the fact that it's more or less a dead card without leo out. In a dedicated ramp deck I would be 100% for it, but as is it doesn't seem necessary, merely one of many good options. If leo were 4 mana I would say differently though.
I'm not playing jitte, but I am playing swords of feast & famine and fire & ice. Jitte is also quite good though, and it's hard to argue against it.
I too am playing only about 10-12 creatures (plus bitterblossom, although I'm unsure how long that will stay). The nice thing about swords is that they turn all of them into legit game winning threats.
spellskite is another one of those cards that is never really bad, and serves a lot of really important roles in the deck. I don't personally own one, but I assume I would be playing it if I did, or at the very least it would be somewhere around card 101-105. Crop rotation is only worth it if you have more than one utility land, but honestly geier reach is so potent here that it might be not be a bad idea to test it out. Back when I was playing a very similar tasigur list I found that it was either amazing or utterly useless. The ability to get things like wasteland or maze at instant speed is quite good, but when those cards aren't good then it's worse than a dead card.
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Island
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mana Confluence
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Pollted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tolaria West
1 Tropical Island
1 Twilight MIre
1 Underground River
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Watery Grave
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Complicate
1 Counterspell
1 Countersquall
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Daze
1 Delay
1 Dismember
1 Force of Will
1 Force Spike
1 Go for the Throat
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Negate
1 Putrefy
1 Remand
1 Remove Soul
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sultai Charm
1 Unsubstantiate
1 Damnation
1 Day's Undoing
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Duress
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
1 Time Spiral
1 Windfall
1 Bitterblossom
1 Exploration
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
While I think Leo can support a much more controlling list (he's part UB after all), he seems to lend himself to tempo more in the games I've played. It's my opinion that if you want to play control their are better options, but I would be hard pressed to find a commander that fits flexible tempo as well.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Thanks for chiming in about FaF and Jitte. I'll give them a try.
All your points about Cryptic are valid. It felt very strange when I cut it from my list because of how flexible and powerful it was. I'll try to keep it in mind during my rounds today. Another complication is that my meta is very blue combo oriented so I've found that being more aggressive is the way to go, since my list is not optimized to out control them. Looking back at your previous posts it seems like you are more blue heavy with Teferi so the triple blue is probably not an issue for you where I've had trouble with it.
Round 1 vs. Krenko, Mob Boss
My opponent kept some suboptimal hands and I was able to capitalize on him stumbling a bit. I drew Jitte both games, allowing me to control the amount of goblins he was able to keep in play. Not sure what to take away from this one since the aggro plan did not really get to be executed.
Round 2 vs. Narset, Enlightened Master
Game one I was on the play and was able to turn two a Leo into turn 3 Windfall. Leo is able to ride counter magic for a victory. Game two was much more what I expect from a blue deck where we trade resources one for one until I bait out a counter with neonatal Jace (Vryn's Prodigy) and stick a Liliana of the Veil. His list is very creature lite, so I am able to just tick up Lili until she ultimates and decimate his lands. Then Leo comes down and it's lights out.
Round 3 vs. Teferi, Temporal Archmage
I've played this match before and I mulligan to five to find a more aggressive hand. I settle on one that has three land a windfall and a Vendilion Clique. It's not great, but going to four seems miserable. I get my break when I cast clique and find only one counterspell in his hand at the end of his turn. An argument could be made for countering the clique and not giving me the info, because when I untapped I jammed Leo as fast as possible. I didn't really draw any counter magic the rest of the game so it was really tight worrying about Cyclonic Rift, but I did draw SoFaF, which shone like a beautiful star against a deck trying to hold cards in its hand and wait to combo. That clock was able to put him away. Game two went much more in line with the plan where a dork was able to power out Leo on turn two and I countered the important spells. I let him resolve a lot of mana acceleration, but countered the business spells. It was still close, but I was able to clock him fast enough to get the kill a turn before he could have generated infinite mana after top decking The Chain Veil.
I know that this is a pretty superficial summary, but thanks for reading, and if anyone has any questions I'd be happy to reply.
1 vendillion clique
1 nissa, vastwood seer
1 deathrite shaman
1 glen elandra archmage
1 true name nemesis
1 jace, vryn's prodigy
1 primeval titan
1 kalitas, traitor of ghet
1 eternal witness
1 baleful strix
1 birds of paradise
1 snapcaster mage
1 the gitrog monster
1 dragonlord silumgar
1 exploration
1 teferi's puzzle box
1 sword of feast and famine
1 bitterblossom
1 burgeoning
1 pernicious deed
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sylvan library
1 crucible of worlds
1 treachery
1 ugin the spirit dragon
1 liliana of the veil
1 ob nixilis, reignited
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 thoughtseize
1 demonic tutor
1 hymn to tourach
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 season's past
1 maelstrom pulse
1 tiime spiral
1 ancestral vision
1 traverse the ulvenwald
1 preordain
1 life from the loam
1 painful truths
1 ponder
1 raven's crime
1 toxic deluge
1 damnation
1 cryptic command
1 counterspell
1 murderous cut
1 sultai charm
1 diabolic edict
1 crop rotation
1 mystic confluence
1 negate
1 abrupt decay
1 putrefy
1 intuition
1 go for the throat
1 remand
1 cyclonic rift
1 maze of ith
1 dark depths
1 sunken hollow
1 polluted delta
1 lumbering falls
1 hissing quagmire
1 thespian's stage
1 twilight mire
1 tranquil thicket
1 dust bowl
1 wooded foothills
1 bayou
1 drowned catacombs
1 windswept heath
1 blighted fen
1 tectonic edge
1 bojuka bog
1 wasteland
1 sunken ruins
1 verdant catacombs
1 creeping tar pit
1 woodland cemetary
1 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 command tower
1 opulent palace
1 geier reach sanitarium
1 bloodstained mire
1 underground sea
1 reflecting pool
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 watery grave
1 flooded strand
1 lonely sandbar
2 forest
2 island
1 swamp
cards I would like to fit in but haven't quite found a place for them yet, in no particular order:
fact or fiction
brainstorm
dark confidant
dispel
logic knot
dismember
tamiyo
garruk relentless
the jace from SOI
jitte
ashiok
phyrexian metamorph
gilded drake
pieces of the puzzle (at least for testing, I find it to be highly underrated in spell dense decks that want to use their GY)
another edict effect, probably far//away but maybe also to the slaughter
another sweeper. Possibly crux of fate? I'm a bit unsure of what next best the best sweeper is after damnation and toxic deluge. This is mostly just for intuition purposes, so that I'm not forced to rely on snapcaster and ewitness as my third card. That said, I do also have deed.
maybe 1 more mana dork?
another land, maybe 2
cards that I am unsure about:
ugin: I am a massive fan of this guy and his ability to just flat out end games on the spot against many decks, but I wonder if it's a bit too top heavy for this deck
the second sword: not 100% sure that both are necessary, but I don't have any complaints thus far. would likely replace with jitte
teferi's puzzle box: the lock seems amazing in theory, but I have been unable to get it thusfar. needs more testing
burgeoning: I have yet to draw it in the early game (or really ever when I have extra lands to get in off of it). I want it to be exploration-lite but we'll see. Would probably replace with a land.
tec edge: I found that I'm playing probably 1 too many colorless sources, and I think this one is ever so slightly worse than dustbowl. would replace with something like a yavimaya coast, or maybe a vivid marsh
traverse the ulvenwald: I haven't had a ton of trouble getting to delirium, but this just needs more testing. It also overlaps a lot with crop rotation and I'm not sure I need both
crop rotation: see above. it's not always that useful (if my utility lands aren't what I need) and it overlaps quite a bit with traverse. I do think it's a bit weaker than traverse as well (as it's not amazing at color fixing) but instant speed is really nice and has saved me more than once in the past.
gitrog: I have yet to actually cast him. I know that he's quite good (I've played against him in standard a little) and he should be pretty bonkers in this particular deck, but in the games I've played so far I've always either had something better to do with my mana, or I never wanted to tutor for him over something like primetime or even ewitness.
anyways, that's what I have so far. any comments/suggestions?
I really really dislike living death in non-reanimator lists, especially control ones, because it plays so poorly with other sweepers/spot removal. That combined with the fact that there are several reanimator lists (2 meren) in my meta means that it's especially out. I would play it in something like sidisi in a heartbeat, but here it just seems so bad. I'm already playing deed. I normally agree that languish is choice #3 in a non-monoblack deck (otherwise I would say mutilate), but in my particular meta there's enough decks playing big stuff that is out of languish range that it seems a bit subpar. I suppose I'll just stick with what I have now and see if I actually do need any more.
Also howling mine effects seem good here?
The other reason is you dont really need to play 2 windfalls in a game. Once your opponents hand is gone the value is diminished.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Island
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mana Confluence
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Pollted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tolaria West
1 Tropical Island
1 Twilight MIre
1 Underground River
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Watery Grave
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell
1 Countersquall
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Daze
1 Delay
1 Dismember
1 Force of Will
1 Force Spike
1 Go for the Throat
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Negate
1 Putrefy
1 Remand
1 Remove Soul
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sultai Charm
1 Unsubstantiate
1 Damnation
1 Day's Undoing
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Duress
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
1 Time Spiral
1 Windfall
1 Bitterblossom
1 Exploration
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
1 Umezawa's Jitte
First off, I wouldn't stress too much about not having access to one or two cards if you decide to go with the "good stuff" version. Sure, better cards are better cards, but learning a deck that is 98% optimized is still time well spent.
As far as how to play this version, it can be kind of tricky. You're a tempo deck, and that means learning to identify roll assignment in each of your games and even switching within a game. Sometimes you will be the aggressor, sometimes you'll be the control deck. A general rule of thumb is that this deck can't out control the control decks and we aren't faster than the aggro decks, so you will usually take the opposing role. What we have going for us is raw power in card quality and the draw our general provide us. Most of the time trading resources with our opponent should be in our favor either mana investment wise or card count wise.
All that aside, our best starts are landing a proactive threat (Leo, Confidant, Clique, etc.) and then protecting it with counter magic and hand disruption. This is why the mana dorks are so important. They let us get out our game winning threats early before our opponent has time to have counter magic up or a board state. This will usually force our opponent to react to what we are doing rather than progress their game plan. We won't often be ahead by a lot, but it's enough to win. Leovold is perfect for keeping us ahead on cards. If that line isn't available, we can fall back on our discard package and try to empty our opponent's hand. Being a "good stuff" deck, our top decks are usually better than the opponent's. It can also give us time to assemble the appropriate win con, be it a puzzle box, a loam cephalid lock, a time spiral or depths.
The windfall effects are very effective in a majority of matches. If you are able to turn two Leo into turn three Windfall/Day's Undoing it often feels like a free win.
As far as hymn vs duress, I've only played duress in the deck so far, but my gut feeling is that the information, the pinpoint disruption and one less mana fit better within the tempo shell. I could be wrong though. Hymn is incredibly powerful, and there is nothing like a card that literally reads "two for one your opponent."
I have to give credit to FearDReaper for their original list, which I started off of.
I dislike living death in this style of control deck in general, since having to bring back threats that you killed earlier, either with spot removal or a different sweeper, is all kinds of terrible. Often you're sweeping the board because either you're going to die, they have something out that you can't kill with spot removal, or you're behind, and living death doesn't really remedy any of those situations if you've been using spot removal or other sweepers up until the point you cast it. That said, it definitely has it's place, especially in more creature heavy based control decks or something that has significant grave hate (anafenza, etc.), but I don't think that spot is in a tempo/control shell where it's very difficult to end up ahead after using it.
I find ponder and preordain to be better than brainstorm (although brainstorm is a very close third) for a couple reasons, the main one being that you don't end up brainstorm locked. While brainstorm is undoubtedly a great card, I find that in DC/EDH I tend to lack the critical mass of shuffles that you would get in something like legacy that make brainstorm so powerful there. Brainstorm has the highest upside of the cantrips, but it also has arguably the biggest downside and is a bit less consistent than the others. Leovold does help alleviate that somewhat since he does tend to draw you a couple extra cards, but since I have a lot of other similar effects as it is (JTMS, sylvan) and since I'm crushed for space to begin with I had to cut something. It is definitely on the short list of cards that I would like to fit in, although I think I would try to get fact or fiction in first.
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StaffHey now, I resemble that remark.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
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StaffBChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
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StaffCephalid Coliseum, Raven's Crime, Wasteland are all good cards in BUG. The first being astounding in Leo.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Edit: necro'ed. Having access to Bog through Loam+Intuition is important against Jace, Titania and Karador. I've seen Gitrog Wasteland their own Bog and play it again vs Jace. No reason this can't be an Intuition pile here either, although it is a turn slower without Exploration effects.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)