In the current meta, I would consider replacing a torch fiend for abrade. Or find a way to play both.
No way man. Abrade doesn't go to the dome...I thought it was almost a Smash to Smithereens this morning. But no. No it is not...
Yeh i thought you'd say that. But i like it coz in games without artifacts to smash (to smithereens), at least abrade can kill a blocker, or more importantly, bruse tarl lol
I even love the mana sink. It's to me the best 2-drop beater zurgo has.
Your statement isn't about Hellspark Elemental, so it can't be completely accurate...
...>_>
<_<...
But no, srsly, this card will be great, and it's def better most of the time than Kari Zev for sure. And now I miss DC not firing and letting me play Zurgo here. V_V
I've had the PureMTGO version of the first post ("So You Want to Play Red in Commander?") saved as a favorite since 2014, but I somehow completely missed this thread until now. I'm a mono-red player from the days of Revised and 4th Edition, but I sold my collection over a decade ago. I started up again in 2014, casually playing multiplayer EDH/Commander. I picked up Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs, Jaya Ballard, Task Mage, and Zo-Zu the Punisher as commanders, but before Zo-Zu ever hit the table I learned that punisher style decks are liable to get hated off the table, so Zo-Zu remains unplayed to this day. However, 3drinks' PureMTGO article inspired me to gradually accumulate cards for a Duel/French Commander Zo-Zu deck.
I noticed that this thread appears to have moved on from Zo-Zu to Zurgo Bellstriker. Are Zo-Zu decks still open for discussion here? (I greatly appreciate that the Zo-Zu decklist is still retained in the first post.)
Also, I'm an ultra-budget player. I never spend more than 50 cents on a single card for EDH/Commander, but I'd be interested in attempting to generate the most effective 1v1 Zo-Zu decklist possible within that constraint if those on this thread would be willing to advise me at that level. (I don't want to disrupt this thread if that would be inappropriate.)
So Zafersan and I are from the same LGS in the GVA of BC Canada, and Zurgo has been hilarious to play in our LGS. We used to have a Zo-Zu deck in the meta but a three drop general isn't as good as a consistent t1 play...every game
I've had the PureMTGO version of the first post ("So You Want to Play Red in Commander?") saved as a favorite since 2014, but I somehow completely missed this thread until now. I'm a mono-red player from the days of Revised and 4th Edition, but I sold my collection over a decade ago. I started up again in 2014, casually playing multiplayer EDH/Commander. I picked up Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs, Jaya Ballard, Task Mage, and Zo-Zu the Punisher as commanders, but before Zo-Zu ever hit the table I learned that punisher style decks are liable to get hated off the table, so Zo-Zu remains unplayed to this day. However, 3drinks' PureMTGO article inspired me to gradually accumulate cards for a Duel/French Commander Zo-Zu deck.
I noticed that this thread appears to have moved on from Zo-Zu to Zurgo Bellstriker. Are Zo-Zu decks still open for discussion here? (I greatly appreciate that the Zo-Zu decklist is still retained in the first post.)
Also, I'm an ultra-budget player. I never spend more than 50 cents on a single card for EDH/Commander, but I'd be interested in attempting to generate the most effective 1v1 Zo-Zu decklist possible within that constraint if those on this thread would be willing to advise me at that level. (I don't want to disrupt this thread if that would be inappropriate.)
They still are, but zurgo bellstriker at the helm as a consistent 2 power turn 1 option with zo-zu in the 99 has been established as the optimal choice in duel commander. It's also a budget build anyway. As for a zo-zu build, just get any zurgo decklist and put zo zu at the helm. If you want it on theme and make your damage output more of a punisher build, just play pyrostatic pillar, ankh of mishra spellshock, etc and you're good to go. Problem is, with a 3 drop commander, your deckbuilding options become tighter. you need to fill in that 1 drop spot with goblin guide variants like monastery swiftspear or god forbid firedrinker satyr. No consistent one drop in the command zone significantly nerfs the deck.
Out of curiosity: If life totals started at 30, how would that impact Zurgo's effectiveness? Would the increased life totals make Zo-Zu more viable?
well in theory you'd think zo-zu would be the better choice, but you'll need to get damage in as early as humanly possible, making bellstriker even more essential to the gameplan.
As for the impact, well let's put it this way. MonoR bellstriker is painfully simple, it's about counting to 20 ASAP with cheap burn and cheap creatures. Take note i said simple, not easy. There is a lot of micromanaging and math involved figuring out where to point your burn spells, or what to cast first. One simple miscalculation with the offense could actually cost you the entire game. By adding 10 life points it just destroys the math of everything, and you'll need more sustained offense to close out games. It gets harder to calculate damage output because the game is guaranteed to last longer. And with weenie hasty creatures, they are not likely to go through blocks during the midgame onwards. So punisher cards like zo-zu etc (in the 99) become more important, and more value-for-mana 4 drops like chandra, torch of defiance, even chandra, pyromaster become more viable. Overall though, the power level is definitely not tier 1 anymore at 30.
Ok guyz, long time no post, but I just wanted to share that I took this to a 20 players tournament (small tournament but still) and manage to beat everyone, taking first place.
My decklist is a bit different, but that is not the point. I just wanted to know which of those 3 cards should make it to the deck:
I see there was some discussion earlier, and this is absolutely going in my list, more creatures we can bring from the yard is always good, and this can replace any other 2/1 hasty creature in the list as it will be strictly better.
No haste, but we now have a lot of spells... Cost 1 less than Guttersnipe, for 1 less damage, but... Maybe? Opinions on this one?
This I think could be included in place of a mountain. Can tap for colorless without damage if colored is not needed, will still tap for red if needed, and comes into play untapped. During the tournament I won because of Barbarian Ring, and this would be a second copy of it in the deck. Yes the cost to activate thr ability is higher, but sometimes I have an empty hand and nothing to do with the 6 mana I have (if game goes a bit longer than what it is supposed to and we had to burn some creatures instead of going to the dome). This would be another emergency button, and I see no big reason why it should not be in?
Ok guyz, long time no post, but I just wanted to share that I took this to a 20 players tournament (small tournament but still) and manage to beat everyone, taking first place.
My decklist is a bit different, but that is not the point. I just wanted to know which of those 3 cards should make it to the deck:
I see there was some discussion earlier, and this is absolutely going in my list, more creatures we can bring from the yard is always good, and this can replace any other 2/1 hasty creature in the list as it will be strictly better.
No haste, but we now have a lot of spells... Cost 1 less than Guttersnipe, for 1 less damage, but... Maybe? Opinions on this one?
This I think could be included in place of a mountain. Can tap for colorless without damage if colored is not needed, will still tap for red if needed, and comes into play untapped. During the tournament I won because of Barbarian Ring, and this would be a second copy of it in the deck. Yes the cost to activate thr ability is higher, but sometimes I have an empty hand and nothing to do with the 6 mana I have (if game goes a bit longer than what it is supposed to and we had to burn some creatures instead of going to the dome). This would be another emergency button, and I see no big reason why it should not be in?
though now that i think abt it i'd rather play harsh mentor than the archer
If it were "sac a land: shock" I'd be all in. But having to sac a desert only? There's not enough other deserts to justify it. On it's own, it does a really, really poor impersonation of Barbarian Ring.
though now that i think abt it i'd rather play harsh mentor than the archer
If it were "sac a land: shock" I'd be all in. But having to sac a desert only? There's not enough other deserts to justify it. On it's own, it does a really, really poor impersonation of Barbarian Ring.
weeell nothing beats ring lol just saying it beats a vanilla mountain.. but it does nerf koth's ultimate by not being a mountain so that's a thing too.. not an auto-include i guess but if there's a build that wants to maximize damage all the way to the manabase this is one way to do it
though now that i think abt it i'd rather play harsh mentor than the archer
If it were "sac a land: shock" I'd be all in. But having to sac a desert only? There's not enough other deserts to justify it. On it's own, it does a really, really poor impersonation of Barbarian Ring.
weeell nothing beats ring lol just saying it beats a vanilla mountain.. but it does nerf koth's ultimate by not being a mountain so that's a thing too.. not an auto-include i guess but if there's a build that wants to maximize damage all the way to the manabase this is one way to do it
I don't know man. I like Mountains. They're pretty good. They let me play free 4 to the face instants without worry. They let me beat you in the face for four...
Honestly, if I want to maximize damage, I'll get more damage out of a Rishadan Port. if you catch my drift. Subliminal damage.
*sniff* It's beautiful. Earthshaker Khenra not included yet as I can't buy one until Friday. Jury is still out on Insult // Injury but I'm leaning towards it being a green light.
Combat Celebrant is a bust. It's only good if we have guaranteed haste for it, and only good once (no one in their right mind should EVER let this thing get through unblocked).
After reading through the thread, I've begun building my deck starting with instants and sorceries. I noticed a number of lists running Violent Eruption in the 4CMC spot. I'm slightly confused by this as I've seen almost no mention of its lower CMC analogs: Flames of the Firebrand and Arc Lightning. Even Forked Bolt and Arc Trail are rarely included. Is the sorcery speed of these four spells what makes them unplayable or is there something else I'm missing?
Being in the 4CMC slot, Violent Eruption also competes with the deck's finishers, but if it's being used primarily as a finisher Flame Javelin, Char, and Exquisite Firecraft do the same amount of damage for less mana.
Also, do either of these cards have merit? Lash Out - Clears out creatures just as well as Searing Spear with the possibility of also blasting your opponent. I did that math and its about a 1 in 3 chance of winning the clash, so on average this is 4 damage for 2 mana. Downhill Charge - This combined with Ball Lightning or unblocked Hero of Oxid Ridge could easily close out the game. Obviously, this is better in the creature-centric builds than the burn-centric ones.
It's the combination of being instant speed, multi-targeting, and hitting that magic number (four) that combines to make this one of the most versatile burn spells. I would rank it above Flame Javelin (don't kid yourself, this is mono-R but RRR is still a stiff cost) although I rank Char/Exquisite Firecraft both as stronger.
I wouldn't ever leave home without it, least of which over the cards you mentioned. Insult // Injury also deserves some playtesting over the cards you mentioned.
A lot of your cards are not very efficient in a damage to mana spent ratio, this will cause you issue in closing out a game and leaving too many opportunities for an opponent to catch up. As you're playing in a competitive event, it's really not a good idea to cite financials as a reason to not play cards, especially key cards a la G-Guide & Eidolon (I don't view Confluence as a high $$ cad, and we don't play Moon anyway).
Yeh i thought you'd say that. But i like it coz in games without artifacts to smash (to smithereens), at least abrade can kill a blocker, or more importantly, bruse tarl lol
Not that i'd ever replace smash with this.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
That happened.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
you beat me to it! I mean if valley dasher sees play, this has to be an auto include
It's good. Albeit not Heelcutter good. Happy to have it though.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I even love the mana sink. It's to me the best 2-drop beater zurgo has.
Your statement isn't about Hellspark Elemental, so it can't be completely accurate...
...>_>
<_<...
But no, srsly, this card will be great, and it's def better most of the time than Kari Zev for sure. And now I miss DC not firing and letting me play Zurgo here. V_V
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I noticed that this thread appears to have moved on from Zo-Zu to Zurgo Bellstriker. Are Zo-Zu decks still open for discussion here? (I greatly appreciate that the Zo-Zu decklist is still retained in the first post.)
Also, I'm an ultra-budget player. I never spend more than 50 cents on a single card for EDH/Commander, but I'd be interested in attempting to generate the most effective 1v1 Zo-Zu decklist possible within that constraint if those on this thread would be willing to advise me at that level. (I don't want to disrupt this thread if that would be inappropriate.)
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zur-go-30/ this is the list I've been having fun with
They still are, but zurgo bellstriker at the helm as a consistent 2 power turn 1 option with zo-zu in the 99 has been established as the optimal choice in duel commander. It's also a budget build anyway. As for a zo-zu build, just get any zurgo decklist and put zo zu at the helm. If you want it on theme and make your damage output more of a punisher build, just play pyrostatic pillar, ankh of mishra spellshock, etc and you're good to go. Problem is, with a 3 drop commander, your deckbuilding options become tighter. you need to fill in that 1 drop spot with goblin guide variants like monastery swiftspear or god forbid firedrinker satyr. No consistent one drop in the command zone significantly nerfs the deck.
Out of curiosity: If life totals started at 30, how would that impact Zurgo's effectiveness? Would the increased life totals make Zo-Zu more viable?
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
well in theory you'd think zo-zu would be the better choice, but you'll need to get damage in as early as humanly possible, making bellstriker even more essential to the gameplan.
As for the impact, well let's put it this way. MonoR bellstriker is painfully simple, it's about counting to 20 ASAP with cheap burn and cheap creatures. Take note i said simple, not easy. There is a lot of micromanaging and math involved figuring out where to point your burn spells, or what to cast first. One simple miscalculation with the offense could actually cost you the entire game. By adding 10 life points it just destroys the math of everything, and you'll need more sustained offense to close out games. It gets harder to calculate damage output because the game is guaranteed to last longer. And with weenie hasty creatures, they are not likely to go through blocks during the midgame onwards. So punisher cards like zo-zu etc (in the 99) become more important, and more value-for-mana 4 drops like chandra, torch of defiance, even chandra, pyromaster become more viable. Overall though, the power level is definitely not tier 1 anymore at 30.
My decklist is a bit different, but that is not the point. I just wanted to know which of those 3 cards should make it to the deck:
I see there was some discussion earlier, and this is absolutely going in my list, more creatures we can bring from the yard is always good, and this can replace any other 2/1 hasty creature in the list as it will be strictly better.
No haste, but we now have a lot of spells... Cost 1 less than Guttersnipe, for 1 less damage, but... Maybe? Opinions on this one?
This I think could be included in place of a mountain. Can tap for colorless without damage if colored is not needed, will still tap for red if needed, and comes into play untapped. During the tournament I won because of Barbarian Ring, and this would be a second copy of it in the deck. Yes the cost to activate thr ability is higher, but sometimes I have an empty hand and nothing to do with the 6 mana I have (if game goes a bit longer than what it is supposed to and we had to burn some creatures instead of going to the dome). This would be another emergency button, and I see no big reason why it should not be in?
I quite agree to all the choices
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
ruins > mountain imo
though now that i think abt it i'd rather play harsh mentor than the archer
If it were "sac a land: shock" I'd be all in. But having to sac a desert only? There's not enough other deserts to justify it. On it's own, it does a really, really poor impersonation of Barbarian Ring.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
weeell nothing beats ring lol just saying it beats a vanilla mountain.. but it does nerf koth's ultimate by not being a mountain so that's a thing too.. not an auto-include i guess but if there's a build that wants to maximize damage all the way to the manabase this is one way to do it
I don't know man. I like Mountains. They're pretty good. They let me play free 4 to the face instants without worry. They let me beat you in the face for four...
Honestly, if I want to maximize damage, I'll get more damage out of a Rishadan Port. if you catch my drift. Subliminal damage.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zurgo-bellstriker-sligh/
*sniff* It's beautiful. Earthshaker Khenra not included yet as I can't buy one until Friday. Jury is still out on Insult // Injury but I'm leaning towards it being a green light.
Combat Celebrant is a bust. It's only good if we have guaranteed haste for it, and only good once (no one in their right mind should EVER let this thing get through unblocked).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Being in the 4CMC slot, Violent Eruption also competes with the deck's finishers, but if it's being used primarily as a finisher Flame Javelin, Char, and Exquisite Firecraft do the same amount of damage for less mana.
Also, do either of these cards have merit?
Lash Out - Clears out creatures just as well as Searing Spear with the possibility of also blasting your opponent. I did that math and its about a 1 in 3 chance of winning the clash, so on average this is 4 damage for 2 mana.
Downhill Charge - This combined with Ball Lightning or unblocked Hero of Oxid Ridge could easily close out the game. Obviously, this is better in the creature-centric builds than the burn-centric ones.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
It's the combination of being instant speed, multi-targeting, and hitting that magic number (four) that combines to make this one of the most versatile burn spells. I would rank it above Flame Javelin (don't kid yourself, this is mono-R but RRR is still a stiff cost) although I rank Char/Exquisite Firecraft both as stronger.
I wouldn't ever leave home without it, least of which over the cards you mentioned. Insult // Injury also deserves some playtesting over the cards you mentioned.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Nevertheless, here's the last Zurgo I played;
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zurgo-bellstriker-sligh/
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I've never been a fan of Swiftspear. I don't get they hype. G-Guide he is not haha.
Really? Spellshock?! That was when we had the 30 life format, it's a bit slow for 20 right?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.