What do people think of Gut Shot? It wins me games and is good removal.
What do you guys think of Harsh Mentor? Does he always get to deal damage?
I play a more Burn oriented list http://www.mtgvault.com/zafersan/decks/zurgo-to-the-face-edh/. My friend plays Zurgo like you guys, 30 or so creatures and my list beats his. When we play, he is the aggro and I'm the control, almost always like this. The upside to my list is when I'm in top deck mode, my top decks are always good unless it's land.
I think 30 creatures is too much. Around 25 should be fine, with the rest being burn. As for a burn heavy list, I used to play something similar to yours, reducing my creatures to below 20. The problem is, people started adjusting with life gain, whereas before it was just by upping their removals. It's more important in that scenario to have cards that deal damage constantly. So I had to push the creature count back up a bit, and the matchups are a bit more balanced now. Anyway, the success of any zurgo list highly depends on what your respective meta looks like. I know for a fact that with my meta, I got destroyed with a burn-heavy list but had a noticeable improvement after increasing the creature count.
Harsh mentor has potential, though I haven't tested yet. It punishes fetches and stuff I guess. But I'm not sure how consistently you can get output from his trigger. I don't like that there will be times when he's a vanilla 2/2 with no haste. Gutshot is bad for me output-wise. Punishing fire looks good on paper, but it's too slow to counteract life gain. Not to mention 2 damage for 2 mana being very inefficient. I'd never play a 5 drop in the deck so witch hunt is out of the question for me. Stigma lasher is worth a shot though.
Harsh Mentor has been good for me, Yisan basically can't beat the card for what it is worth. Mentor is just a good hate bear style card, it is just fine as a 2/2 and you will pretty often get at least one trigger off of it and at that point it is great.
Harsh Mentor has been good for me, Yisan basically can't beat the card for what it is worth. Mentor is just a good hate bear style card, it is just fine as a 2/2 and you will pretty often get at least one trigger off of it and at that point it is great.
what other matchups have you been able to maximize his output? In theory it can catch fetches, but that output is not so consistent. I guess baby jace would be another scenario to maximize him. But I'd rather have a card that is consistent across all matchups. You're right though, just one trigger makes him worth the cast, as long as he gets to get a swing in.
Anyway I feel like a matchup we don't discuss often is the mirror, which is a shame since we're bound to run into another zurgo in tournaments. Usually the person on the play wins, unless you manage to swing with a gobin guide on the draw. But there's more to it i think and there's a right approach to it. Oftentimes I feel the right choice would be to allocate burn to their creatures, then kill with combat damage as a general rule. Having fatties like lathnu helion tends to break the stalemate, and in my experience the biggest tie breaker has been thunderous wrath. Not everyone plays it, and 100% of the time, whether on the play or on the draw, when I miracle it, the 5 point swing for 1 gives me enough of a lead to win.
I can't think of too many more match-ups where Mentor is just going to deal 4-6 damage consistently. However, it is less about that and more about incidentally doing things in normal games of magic, because you aren't often able to get mentor in the match-ups where it truly shines. We are mono-red after all and can't consistently get specific cards in specific match-ups, we have no good library manipulation, no cheap cantrips, no tutors so if we draw it when it's great, great, if not we probably aren't too sad about it. The same can be said for when it is just basically a 2/2.
Cards that Mentor is good against that are common: the aforementioned fetches, but there are also creature and utility lands, equipment (Mentor is great versus Jitte, equip deals them 2, then they must deal themselves 4 to kill it, otherwise their lifegain is offset by deal 2). Random utility creatures are also prevalent in the format (this card is also great versus scavenging ooze for much the same reason as jitte).
On the mirror:
1. The die roll is probably the single most important thing in the mirror, but there are things you can do to try to swing games while you are on the draw.
2.Tempo swings are generated by playing multiple cards in the same turn, Shock and its variants are very good in the mirror, they kill nearly all the threats of the deck and allow you to develop a threat in the same turn, which in turn allows you to break serve and attempt to get ahead in the damage race.
3. Try to avoid giving you opponent the opportunity to claw back into the game, this means that cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Pyrostatic Pillar, spellshocker et al. are high risk cards in a lot of cases(try to think "how could my opponent possibly get back in this game", pretty often it will be you taking unnecessary damage).
On Thunderous Wrath: yeah, high variance magic will 100% win you games where you are on the right side of the variance, but in the cases where you cannot miracle it (in your opening/1st draw step you are down a card, which is certainly not good in the mirror). I'm not into high variance magic, the mirror and many match-ups are volatile enough as it sits.
About the incidentally doing things in magic argument, that's exactly why i play thunderous wrath. Even then, there is some math behind it, crude as it may be. These are the things that can happen with Twrath, based on my playtesting:
1.) Worst case: opening hand (7/99 odds, one time occurence per game), even then it still has a chance of being used as a finisher late game
2.) Never getting to draw it (x/99, where x is 99 minus opening hand + topdecks throughout the game) is the most common occurrence, and it neither helps nor hinders game result
3.) Best case: Miracle (1/92 per turn, odds occur every turn and scales upward after each turn or fetch): 5 dmg for 1 mana. So far, I have not lost a game where this has happened.
Given that, although it's not enough to argue that Twrath is an auto-include, there's even less reason to argue that it's bad and should be removed.. especially if the miracle has won me games 100% of the time, while getting it in my opening hand has never cost me a game.
Going back to harsh mentor though, the scavenging ooze and equipment argument makes a lot of sense. I guess to add it even cancels out zuran orb activations in titania matchups. In the end though, I view mentor as a high variance card as well. There will be matchups where he can win games, and in others just a vanilla 2/2. In the end i think it's about preference and meta, but given all your examples, I think those are enough reasons to try him out tbh. I'd at least play him over magus of the moon just for the lower cost.
Is anyone out there still using sin prodder? I find menace to be more relevant than haste nowadays. Cards like Firefist striker and frenzied goblin I believe are quite underrated and should be balanced with the hasty creatures for max output.
I don't know if a burn oriented list is going to be good online.
30 life is a lot. And going turn 1 Zurgo, turn 2 3-power creature is awesome if they don't answer it. You can then burn blockers and finish the game with burn.
When they can stop your creatures before they deal about 15 damage, you're probably going to lose. But if they don't have that turn 1/2/3 interaction, they get stomped.
Gut Shot seems weak. I don't even play shock, simply because 2 damage is not worth a card. Skullcrack is good. Not hitting creatures sometimes gets you, but it's an awesome tempo swing against lifelink creatures. Pulse of the Forge seems good only on the mirror. On most other matchups you should basically always have more life than the opponent. Flames of the Blood Hand is just better. Stigma Lasher is a very powerful effect, I will try it out. Harsh Mentor seems good, from fecthlands to Breya, this guy does a lot of work. Witch Hunt is too expensive. Sulfuric Vortex is king. Auto include in any list.
I got the following results with this BUDGET NON-OPTIMIZED list I built with 15 tix (keep that in mind please): 2x 4-1, 4x 3-2 and 1x 2-3.
There are several obvious improvements, this is just a list I threw togheter to start playing. The general idea is to play only the best 1-drops, a lot of 2-drops and mostly hasty 3-drops. The deck has been falling short a little bit when finishing a game, I think it needs more powerful 4-drops like Koth of the Hammer and some nonbasic hate like Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon.
To clarify, is this list to be used in MTGO 30 life?
I still won about 50% of the games. With a better list that might increase, but I'm not hopeful at all. It just feels like you're playing an underpowered deck. When you win the die roll and start with Zurgo into 2-drop, the deck is very powerful. But any interaction on turn 1/2/3 wrecks your game and your creatures get outclassed very fast. And then there's is the problem of drawing creatures when you need burn and vice-versa.
I like the deck, but I'm moving on to other strategies until the current banlist is changed.
I still won about 50% of the games. With a better list that might increase, but I'm not hopeful at all. It just feels like you're playing an underpowered deck. When you win the die roll and start with Zurgo into 2-drop, the deck is very powerful. But any interaction on turn 1/2/3 wrecks your game and your creatures get outclassed very fast. And then there's is the problem of drawing creatures when you need burn and vice-versa.
I like the deck, but I'm moving on to other strategies until the current banlist is changed.
I guess you can try to go long with more hate cards like blood moon, ruination, (boil...?) etc. and maybe chunkier 4 drops like manabarbs and archwing dragon, and mana sinks like kargan dragonlord seem more playable at 30. Maybe 38 lands is better here.
Though as much as a grand statement it would be to make waves with zurgo in this new format, oloro is a problem lol.
How relevant is the "If the creature would die this turn, exile it instead" clause from our burns? I'm thinking in use some of them against some creature-based combo decks, notably Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Meren of Clan Nel Toth and The Gitrog Monster. The list I found is:
How relevant is the "If the creature would die this turn, exile it instead" clause from our burns? I'm thinking in use some of them against some creature-based combo decks, notably Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Meren of Clan Nel Toth and The Gitrog Monster. The list I found is:
I dont think those cards help against any of the grave combos. Incinerate is fine but those 3dmg for 3 mana seem rather weak
come to think of it if they sac in response or if they send stuff straight to the yard via buried alive or whatnot, exile burn does nothing. It might be best to just keep things optimal, then run straight up hate like relic of progenitus. At least you have an out that cantrips. Not sure if throwing in grafdigger's cage/tormod's crypt is too much at that point.
Man though. Winning all the way with zurgo at 20 is tough as it is already. I'm not sure how much more it can adjust to 30.
Yeah teetering's benefits are more quantifiable, but a free guard break can be lethal many times. I am definitely testing, along with sunscorched desert. Comes in untapped, free extra reach. I'd play this over rishadan port tbh.
Yeah teetering's benefits are more quantifiable, but a free guard break can be lethal many times. I am definitely testing, along with sunscorched desert. Comes in untapped, free extra reach. I'd play this over rishadan port tbh.
No way!! Port's Tempo gain > random 1 damage. No contest!
Yeah teetering's benefits are more quantifiable, but a free guard break can be lethal many times. I am definitely testing, along with sunscorched desert. Comes in untapped, free extra reach. I'd play this over rishadan port tbh.
No way!! Port's Tempo gain > random 1 damage. No contest!
even in zurgo? i've always just made dmg output a priority since day 1 so my gut tells me to go for the desert lol
Yeah teetering's benefits are more quantifiable, but a free guard break can be lethal many times. I am definitely testing, along with sunscorched desert. Comes in untapped, free extra reach. I'd play this over rishadan port tbh.
No way!! Port's Tempo gain > random 1 damage. No contest!
even in zurgo? i've always just made dmg output a priority since day 1 so my gut tells me to go for the desert lol
You misrepresent the damage that Port does open up. It isn't giving "free damage", but it's representing making Mana Leaks 3cmc, Supreme Verdicts 5cmc, and other efficient spot removals @ 2cmc. And heaven forbid if they miss a and drop. Try combining it with Tangle Wire for maximum lulz. All of this is more theoretical damage than a measly 1 damage ever was.
I think 30 creatures is too much. Around 25 should be fine, with the rest being burn. As for a burn heavy list, I used to play something similar to yours, reducing my creatures to below 20. The problem is, people started adjusting with life gain, whereas before it was just by upping their removals. It's more important in that scenario to have cards that deal damage constantly. So I had to push the creature count back up a bit, and the matchups are a bit more balanced now. Anyway, the success of any zurgo list highly depends on what your respective meta looks like. I know for a fact that with my meta, I got destroyed with a burn-heavy list but had a noticeable improvement after increasing the creature count.
Harsh mentor has potential, though I haven't tested yet. It punishes fetches and stuff I guess. But I'm not sure how consistently you can get output from his trigger. I don't like that there will be times when he's a vanilla 2/2 with no haste. Gutshot is bad for me output-wise. Punishing fire looks good on paper, but it's too slow to counteract life gain. Not to mention 2 damage for 2 mana being very inefficient. I'd never play a 5 drop in the deck so witch hunt is out of the question for me. Stigma lasher is worth a shot though.
what other matchups have you been able to maximize his output? In theory it can catch fetches, but that output is not so consistent. I guess baby jace would be another scenario to maximize him. But I'd rather have a card that is consistent across all matchups. You're right though, just one trigger makes him worth the cast, as long as he gets to get a swing in.
Anyway I feel like a matchup we don't discuss often is the mirror, which is a shame since we're bound to run into another zurgo in tournaments. Usually the person on the play wins, unless you manage to swing with a gobin guide on the draw. But there's more to it i think and there's a right approach to it. Oftentimes I feel the right choice would be to allocate burn to their creatures, then kill with combat damage as a general rule. Having fatties like lathnu helion tends to break the stalemate, and in my experience the biggest tie breaker has been thunderous wrath. Not everyone plays it, and 100% of the time, whether on the play or on the draw, when I miracle it, the 5 point swing for 1 gives me enough of a lead to win.
Cards that Mentor is good against that are common: the aforementioned fetches, but there are also creature and utility lands, equipment (Mentor is great versus Jitte, equip deals them 2, then they must deal themselves 4 to kill it, otherwise their lifegain is offset by deal 2). Random utility creatures are also prevalent in the format (this card is also great versus scavenging ooze for much the same reason as jitte).
On the mirror:
1. The die roll is probably the single most important thing in the mirror, but there are things you can do to try to swing games while you are on the draw.
2.Tempo swings are generated by playing multiple cards in the same turn, Shock and its variants are very good in the mirror, they kill nearly all the threats of the deck and allow you to develop a threat in the same turn, which in turn allows you to break serve and attempt to get ahead in the damage race.
3. Try to avoid giving you opponent the opportunity to claw back into the game, this means that cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Pyrostatic Pillar, spellshocker et al. are high risk cards in a lot of cases(try to think "how could my opponent possibly get back in this game", pretty often it will be you taking unnecessary damage).
On Thunderous Wrath: yeah, high variance magic will 100% win you games where you are on the right side of the variance, but in the cases where you cannot miracle it (in your opening/1st draw step you are down a card, which is certainly not good in the mirror). I'm not into high variance magic, the mirror and many match-ups are volatile enough as it sits.
1.) Worst case: opening hand (7/99 odds, one time occurence per game), even then it still has a chance of being used as a finisher late game
2.) Never getting to draw it (x/99, where x is 99 minus opening hand + topdecks throughout the game) is the most common occurrence, and it neither helps nor hinders game result
3.) Best case: Miracle (1/92 per turn, odds occur every turn and scales upward after each turn or fetch): 5 dmg for 1 mana. So far, I have not lost a game where this has happened.
Given that, although it's not enough to argue that Twrath is an auto-include, there's even less reason to argue that it's bad and should be removed.. especially if the miracle has won me games 100% of the time, while getting it in my opening hand has never cost me a game.
Going back to harsh mentor though, the scavenging ooze and equipment argument makes a lot of sense. I guess to add it even cancels out zuran orb activations in titania matchups. In the end though, I view mentor as a high variance card as well. There will be matchups where he can win games, and in others just a vanilla 2/2. In the end i think it's about preference and meta, but given all your examples, I think those are enough reasons to try him out tbh. I'd at least play him over magus of the moon just for the lower cost.
Is anyone out there still using sin prodder? I find menace to be more relevant than haste nowadays. Cards like Firefist striker and frenzied goblin I believe are quite underrated and should be balanced with the hasty creatures for max output.
To clarify, is this list to be used in MTGO 30 life?
After playing about 10 leagues, I've come to the conclusion that this deck is, at best, tier 2.
30 life is a lot of life. More often than not, you fall short of winning by 10 or 15 life.
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic is basically a match loss.
I still won about 50% of the games. With a better list that might increase, but I'm not hopeful at all. It just feels like you're playing an underpowered deck. When you win the die roll and start with Zurgo into 2-drop, the deck is very powerful. But any interaction on turn 1/2/3 wrecks your game and your creatures get outclassed very fast. And then there's is the problem of drawing creatures when you need burn and vice-versa.
I like the deck, but I'm moving on to other strategies until the current banlist is changed.
If you're a zurgo main, that is indeed the mindset needed lol
I guess you can try to go long with more hate cards like blood moon, ruination, (boil...?) etc. and maybe chunkier 4 drops like manabarbs and archwing dragon, and mana sinks like kargan dragonlord seem more playable at 30. Maybe 38 lands is better here.
Though as much as a grand statement it would be to make waves with zurgo in this new format, oloro is a problem lol.
Annihilating Fire, Carbonize, Yamabushi's Flame - 3 damage for cmc 3 , not the best ratio, but they are instant.
Touch of the Void - 3 damage for cmc 3 too, but as sorcery, and interesting against protection.
Yamabushi's Storm - This plus others burn can remove big threats.
Incendiary Flow - Classic burn, but not everyone use.
Magma Spray - Burn only in creatures.
Pillar of Flame - Like Shock but as sorcery.
Hightower | Vial/Thrasios | Mogis | Grenzo | Endrek |
Tatyova|Sisay|Zurgo|Breya|Chisei|Marchesa|Olivia|KaradorPauper | Pauper |
Legacy|4fun|4fun|Modern|Frontier|Standardin 20, i only have incendiary flow and incinerate so i can't comment on the rest.
but at 30, if it disarms grave-based combo, it's a decent adjustment i guess. dint know gitrog uses grave combos.
come to think of it if they sac in response or if they send stuff straight to the yard via buried alive or whatnot, exile burn does nothing. It might be best to just keep things optimal, then run straight up hate like relic of progenitus. At least you have an out that cantrips. Not sure if throwing in grafdigger's cage/tormod's crypt is too much at that point.
Man though. Winning all the way with zurgo at 20 is tough as it is already. I'm not sure how much more it can adjust to 30.
It's sometimes a better Teetering Peaks. Not always though.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Yeah teetering's benefits are more quantifiable, but a free guard break can be lethal many times. I am definitely testing, along with sunscorched desert. Comes in untapped, free extra reach. I'd play this over rishadan port tbh.
No way!! Port's Tempo gain > random 1 damage. No contest!
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
even in zurgo? i've always just made dmg output a priority since day 1 so my gut tells me to go for the desert lol
You misrepresent the damage that Port does open up. It isn't giving "free damage", but it's representing making Mana Leaks 3cmc, Supreme Verdicts 5cmc, and other efficient spot removals @ 2cmc. And heaven forbid if they miss a and drop. Try combining it with Tangle Wire for maximum lulz. All of this is more theoretical damage than a measly 1 damage ever was.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
In other news, 2 zurgos in top 8 of GP manila, neither broke top 4, I guess owing to the bruse tarl who finished 3rd. Lolz.
No way man. Abrade doesn't go to the dome...I thought it was almost a Smash to Smithereens this morning. But no. No it is not...
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.