To be fair, you did ban Kiki Jiki.... These bannings were expected and whether or not justified, they are much more justified over Kiki Jiki...
To be fair, it was only banned as a commander. But if you come and take a look, you'll notice not only is it not banned, but the banlist has gotten progressively smaller (ignore the three or so cards I've caught that are bugged as, in any normal circumstance, they wouldn't ever be banned).
And don't you also only allow 8 counterspells per deck or something? I mean, no offense, but ... lol.
While I do stand by my decisions at the time as being right for the format, I would urge you to take another look (and by the way, it was a seven counter cap, not eight). The reasoning behind this was the heavy permission decks running rampant and actually detrimentally affecting the attendance numbers of the event; so I did what I could best come up with to, at the very least, "stop the bleeding" so to speak. It's true that many players just did not even feel compelled to join these events during such dark times, feeling almost "hopeless". However with the advent of commanders that are both powerful, and don't automatically lose to heavy permission.dek, thus making such strategies not as appealing, I have since been able to repeal the counter-cap.
But please, don't just take my word for it. Come on Magic Online for event 4.09 and have a run in my events. Then make a better-informed decision about it. I welcome all players!
Derevi couldn't be countered by counterspell magic. I feel that annoyed certain people more than the orb mechanic/situation, the stated reason. Then again, an unsourced email from a casual group held great sway over bannings in the past, apparently. (http://duelcommander.com/2013/08/whats-in-a-banlist/) for the curious.
Overall I'm fine with just playing jenara, but it was nice oppress heavy blue permission while it lasted.
While I find rhythmguy's america post to be...undiplomatic, it's certainly a sentiment I've come across in various edh playgroups here in the
states.
Legacy has 4 definitive Tier 1 decks, doesn't mean the 5 Tier 1.5 decks and the 13 Tier 2 decks have no chance in hell of placing like what happened with Zur's ridiculously opressing dominance before Darevi appeared. Partly because the Rock-Scissors-Paper nature of the archetypes is more pronounced, partly because WotC hasn't done all they can to keep a poisonous, format-warping deck around.
The format is better off without Zur.
Agree with you man.
Breeze of fresh air. Hope we can see a healthier format.
For all those complaining about zur and derevii, I would ask how many hours you've playtested these decks. How many decks have you built and played against the meta just to see how they do. Have any of you made theoretical bans and then playtested the new meta. Zur was stifling the meta, derevi would be there soon, her counterless, flash, never increasing cost was the problem.
With zur gone. Rest and piece falls out of the format. That brings karador back, plus other graveyard decks which may not exist yet. With zur gone never more leaves the format, griselbrand, maelstrom wanderer, and prossh become relevant in entirety. Monolith was banned so decks without counters could still play against these ramp. This ban provided the extra turn or two to try and win. Maelstrom, the best of these 3 is best without creatures save the 3 titans and oath. Oath was removed to,again, give aggro time to play out against ramp.
Derevii gone brings back wydwen, and but probably not clique(marath is too good a matchup), derevii can only be countered by mind controls, shackles and old man and the sea, aka blue cards. Anyone wanting to swing through derevii needs to discard a removal spell just to swing. And then they have to do it again the next turn. Derevii's ability was broken without the twiddle. With it, it was oppressive.
The rule committee doesn't want spells which need counters to beat. This is why NO, and oath were banned. These bans are the ones people have been begging for. This is it. A meta which isn't completely forced on blue. Here it is, so start deck building, start experimenting. Zur is gone, so you don't have to play your parches, or your combusts, no more awful cards just for his sake. If you're worried about the meta, trust me, in two months the format will be more open and healthy than it's been in years. Zavros's and I playtest 2-3 hours most days, we love French, and we saw these bans coming. And what's coming after this is super super exciting. If your nervous get excited, if your angry, please be patient. If your curious nows the time to dive in.
As for those attempting to speak for every single American, you are not. There are many of us who are more than happy to keep French in the hands of the French rules committee. They have done a fantastic job with the format, and continue to guide it to exciting new places. Thank you for all your hard work and fantastic decision making.
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I'm annoyed with the changes but that doesn't I hate it. I knew sooner or later any of those cards will be banned but didn't realized that it'll be affected in one announcement.
Although I'll be sad that Oath and Grim is gone in a few weeks. Definitely Marath will get the edge in the meta. MW... 1/2 designed has been abolished but that doesn't it's dead.
Zur and Dev being gone in meta will definitely open a lot of decks that usually dies to them by turn 3. On the bright side, Regular Commander still exist as a 1v1 game where people can still use Edric, Dev and Zur... and even Hermit. So there's the comparison between Vintage vs Legacy.
And I'm an asian living in the U.S.... I still prefer Duel Commander for tourney although I still play regular 1v1 from time to time.
First of all I want to say. No matter what was on the banlist or wasn't on the banlist some people will be happy and others will complain. People will be unhappy or complain no matter what happens.
Me personally:
I agree with the derevi ban. That commander is too oppressive and has a stupid mechanic.
I feel that instead of banning zur, maybe a ban for helm and nevermore would help weaken Zur.
I agree with the grim monolith, oath of druids ban. Maybe natural order could have been left unbanned because its usually a t3 or t4 play (or later) and doesn't end the game immediately usually. (terrastodon on lands x[? )
I also don't like oloro. I feel that the passive lifegain will be hard for creature based beat down decks to deal with and therefore discourage creature based beat down decks if oloro becomes popular.
I dont want too many powerful cards to be banned because then the format would lose the "EDH spirit/ EDH feel" of playing with old and powerful cards.
However, patriot (ruhan or numot) may now be a good choice as control deck! It's good against ramp and marath
Played with Ruhan and liked it, but haven't tried numot in this format. Would the ruhan list have be significantly altered to accomdate the big dragon while staying viable?
As a control player, I've been trying to build a control deck to beat derevi and after many attenpts I couldn't find a deck with a good win percentage against derevi.... this card is just too strong !The commity really sums it up well : derevi is the central piece of the deck and you can't ban the other cards because you would have to ban all of them.
I m also glad to see zur gone. As a deck builder, the challenge the zur deck posed was : anser zur right away or it will search for the most powerfull enchantment against you with mana cost smaller than 3 every turn. Couple that with the best contol cards of magic and you get the zur deck.... It was also really hard to design a good deck against it.
Finally for the bannings of NO and Oath, I have to agree that this will push aggro decks a bit more.... As it was told, the best answer to a NO or Oath are counterspells, NO turn 3 is a great play for an Aggro deck ! but NO turn 3 is also a great play for an Aggro control deck (bant for example) so if you have the choice between an aggro deck with NO and and aggro-control deck with NO and a solution to NO, the latter will be better because it has an answer to the NO. that's why people chose to play more aggro-control decks over pure aggro decks.
To sum up : A big thank you to the commite, who tries to keep an open format and tries to limit the overall power of the top decks, in order for the people to be able to innovate and discover new rogue decks by banning the generals that are overpowered compared to the rest of the legendary creatures ! (because yes : the raw power level of zur and derevi as generals was much too high compared to the rest of magic's legendary creatures)
I'm grinning right now at the amount of salt in this thread.
As someone who has played 10+ actual tournaments for the past year or so (using 8 different commanders), I like the changes. Zur and Derevi weren't unbeatable, but both of them combined stifled the format and choked plenty of other decks out.
You netdeck a list, the one that wins most of the tournament, buy all the cards with your father's money/build it on cockatrice, and you play it like a real pro showing us the greatest mechanics:
- RIP + helm
- T3 Natural Order - Primetime
- Bloom tender - Derevi - Frost Titan
- Zur into Nevermore
Wow such skill, very strategy, much wins!
Ok, I'm an arrogant provoker but I came back on cockatrice after few month to play some game with my beloved Animar and to test Marath, and the 50% of the field was Derevi/Zur... It's kinda annoying, isn't it?
About the Monolith, I agree with Virtus that allowing a turn 3 Iname/Primeval titan/Prossh isn't in the purpose of the format, in the same way that Natural order wasn't. For this reason, Basalt Monolith is legal. Because it cost 3 and it doesn't read CMC0 add 1 in certain cases. It was just one of the rocks that escaped the "first mana accel ban".
Turn 1 land + mana dork
Turn 2 Basalt Monolith
Turn 3 Power Artifact
Yeah, infinite mana on turn 3 is way worse I guess (but you still get to the same 6 mana on turn 3 without going infinite anyway)
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm really sad about this. I just finished foiling my Derevi list, and Had started running an Azusa Oath list that also runs Natural Order. It's almost like they were watching my games and decided to kick me in the nuts....
I see a lot of people asking why these cards are banned. If you haven't read the official post, here it is.
Zur the Enchanter is banned as a Commander
Zur the Enchanter has been one of the mainstays of the format for quite a while. After a first burst of domination at the end of 2012, we decided to ban Vanishing to give many decks a chance of coming back after Zur had attacked once. But several innovations brought Zur back to the top. First of all, Nevermore was included as a way to shore up many of Zur’s weaker matchups. Then, more controllish builds of the deck emerged, where the pilot could choose to delay playing the Commander as much as needed in order to protect it, but would still be able to punish the opponent if they ever tapped out. Finally, Helm of Obedience combined with the tutorable Rest in Peace made for an instant kill that permitted comfortable play of the Commander in timed rounds. All this made it into arguably the best deck of the format, with players choosing to learn the deck performing quite consistently, much more than would be explained by simple knowledge of the deck’s intricacies. Rather than try to weaken Zur further, we decided to stop the problem at the source and ban the Commander.
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician is banned as a Commander
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician is one of the more innovative Commanders to come out of the Commander 2013 set. It started out rather slow, placing only three copies in the top 8s of the three biggest tournaments this season, but then quickly rose to the top of statistics, taking multiple spots in the top 8s of later tournaments.
This led us to scrutinize quite deeply how Derevi decks function and what could explain their sudden rise to dominance. On the surface the Commander looks rather harmless, its triggered ability comparing quite unfavorably to Edric, Spymaster of Trest‘s. Its reduced cost didn’t seem much of a problem as the body is weak and it’s a good strategy to leave Derevi on the battlefield and concentrate your removal on the other threats.
However, a closer analysis revealed that Derevi combines with many cards to create an enormous advantage very quickly. Combined with Hokori, Dust Drinker, you can lock your opponent while not suffering the effects yourself. Combined with Bloom Tender, you can create 6 mana on turn three, for exampling letting you cast Frost Titan and completely lock your opponent out of the game. Combined with Birthing Pod you can tutor multiple creatures into play every turn, crushing the opponent under value. And these are only a few examples.
As a result, when playing against Derevi, you’re torn apart between trying to stop various threats which are quite good on their own, and trying to deal with a Commander that can come back very cheaply again and again. Not many decks are able to do that and still remain competitive against the rest of the field. Some specialized answers exist (Lignify, Darksteel Mutation, Gilded Drake) however we don’t want to turn matchups against Derevi into a lottery of whether you can find and resolve one of those scarce answers. So rather than try and ban any number of those otherwise interesting cards, we prefer banning the engine.
After these two Commanders are gone, the format is expected to shift towards ramp, a style of deck that had a hard time against these two. That’s why we think it’s a good moment to remove some of its weapons as well in order to give creature-based and counterless strategies a better chance, while avoiding games that are decided by turn 3.
Grim Monolith is banned
Grim Monolith is one of the last sources of fast mana available. You can cast 6-drops on turn 3 with nothing else but Grim Monolith, creating some hard-to-recover from board states. Griselbrand and Maelstrom Wanderer are much more dangerous when they can cast their Commander on turn 4, usually before the opponent has a decent chance of creating a strong enough board. Prossh, Skyraider of Kher landing on turn 3 will often threaten to end the game on the very next turn.
Natural Order is banned
Natural Order has a similar issue: it’s very easy to cast on turn 3. It’s usually not the right play to use removal on an Elf on turn 2, making the play hard to anticipate. And there is a choice of green creatures that are just too strong on turn 3. Primeval Titan can create an insurmountable incremental advantage, while Terastodon can lock certain opponents out entirely.
Oath of Druids is banned
Finally, Oath of Druids has been a long-standing boogeyman against anything creature-centric. While not played much, any game where one deck relied on creatures could see its plan crumble as early as turn 2. The fact that one needs to have only a small amount of creatures to play Oath of Druids in their deck is easily circumvented. It fits naturally into Maelstrom Wanderer whose plan is to reach 8 mana unscathed.
All this leads us to banning Grim Monolith, Natural Order, and Oath of Druids.
Vanishing is unbanned
And last, Vanishing’s only reason to be banned was in order to weaken Zur the Enchanter. With Zur gone, no reason to leave it banned.
Now, if you are still unsure why you should be following the RC's decisions, here's a couple more reasons.
Zur the Enchanter
No matter what type of meta Zur is legal in, he would still be tier 1. A built in tutor engine means a good player can build his deck towards the meta he plays in, and always get the cards he needs most in each match-up. Every time a Zur attacks, he gets further ahead of you, and slowly but surely buries you in card advantage.
Why can't we ban problem cards out of this deck? Sure, you can ban Rest in Peace, Darksteel mutation, nevermore, any of these 3 cmc or lower enchants, but, when does it stop? Each of these cards are fine on their own, its just that Zur can fetch these quite easily and can even break them (such as putting enchantments on hexproof creatures, like Thrun). If you do ban these cards, a zur player changes his deck around, and now he has a new set of utility enchantments that he can draw for free and get ahead of you. Maybe you ban all of these enchantments and zur is weakened for a bit; Wizards is still making magic cards and there will be new tools for this deck within a year, and zur just comes right back.
It's impossible to build a deck specifically to combat zur, as it will lose to everything else. Even with EnchantDestruction//KillZur.Deck, zur is likely to win this match as he can draw more cards than his opponent.
Derevi, Imperial Tactician
One of the important gameplay aspects of Duel Commander and magic in general is tempo. Derevi creates an absurd amount of tempo very quickly that is impossible to keep up with.
Every player can account for the commander tax to be a constant thing, and can base decisions on whether they should spend a removal spell on a commander to buy themselves time/tempo, or save it for another threat they can get rid of permanently (for the most part). Derevi completely ignores that aspect of the format, and is a constant threat that is nearly impossible to deal with.
Any deck that can create a fast lockdown on the game is not good for any format. Simply stopping people from casting spells and playing Magic is the easiest way to push players out of the format.
Grim Monolith, Natural Order, Oath of Druids
People Have been clamoring for aggro to be a viable archetype in Duel Commander for ages. How do these cards have anything to do with aggro?
These bans are meant to make aggro better by weakening midrange and ramp decks.
An aggro deck depends on the early turns to get ahead of its opponent. It needs to play creatures and start swinging before its opponent can play more powerful spells. Each of these banned cards are enablers that can be played early enough in the game that they shut down aggro without any problem.
Cheating the natural resource progression of magic is very broken, as spells are costed by how powerful they are. Late game spells always trump early game spells. The way to beat late game spells is to out tempo your opponent and develop a stronger board or kill your opponent before they have a chance to cast them. In this 30 life format, its difficult to kill your opponent early, so you need a better board position. Grim/Natural/Oath all give you a nigh unbeatable board position early, which crushes other aggro/midrange decks who are just progressing naturally up their curve.
-Grim Monolith-
90% of the time a turn 2 monolith means you win the game on your 3rd turn.
There are powerful cards like primeval titan that can gain you a large advantage immediately, even if your opponent has an answer for it. If they don't answer it, they haven't technically lost until you swing a couple times, but then you are already so far ahead that they cannot comeback.
-Natural Order-
If you are playing natural order you are playing mana elves, as its the easiest and fastest way to cast a NO. Once again, on T3 you win the game.
-Oath of Druids-
Oath plays differently than the others, as your deck needs to be completely built around it, but 90% time you cast it T2 against a deck with creatures, the creature deck loses. How? Your opponent can unwittingly play a creature, and then next turn they lose to the emrakul or some other fatty you flip over on t3. If they try to play around it by not playing creatures, they lose because they need threats on the board to win and eventually the oath player draws their fatty and cast's it anyways.
Why doesn't your opponent just play disenchant effects? Creature decks do have answers to problem enchantments, but many of them can't be used on T2 as they are attached to a creature, or its a global answer like an Oblivion Ring. Lets say the creature player is playing a disenchant spell. The oath player usually doesn't play t2 oath anyways, and waits to protect it with a counterspell. The creature player has very few answers, so a single counterspell is usually enough to protect it for the turn it takes to get active.
Basically, a t2 oath is a little more risky, but the payout is you win the game, while a t4 oath is way less risky and the payout is you win the game.
For those of you who think the format is now unplayable, there is nothing stopping you from setting up your own rules for you local store/playgroup.
Just know that the French Banlist is intended to keep things fair and fun, and that the changes are well thought out and meant to make the format diverse and interesting.
Thanks for reading.
Thanks to the RC for keeping this format great.
Thanks to Hruen for the discussions about the format that these opinions are based on.
Is the person who said they were creating a new Duel Commander format serious? If so, I want all the details!
"Fine! I'll go build my own 1v1 Commander format, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the format and the blackjack."
A big thumbs up to the changes overall. I'm really fine with this format taking cues from the Legacy ban list. Cards that are proven degenerate in an eternal format, if anything, are more evidently ridiculous when they so randomly appear to ruin singleton games. I hope that Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Skullclamp, Earthcraft, and Survival of the Fittest get swept away in the next update. #shotsfired
I've actually wondered what the format would be like if it used the legacy banlist. It'd preemptively prevent the usual response of "herp derp I'm bringing my hermit druid.deck since it's not the french rules" that I've seen thrown around here while hitting lots of shenanigans. However, commanders would have to be dealt with separately.
i feel that creating another format will only be exceedingly detrimental to all the work that has been done by those in france. new players, especially those in america will not know which format to try, they will not understand which format has been tested, and if the format that those here are attempting to create tanks, then that will reflect on duelcommander(especially assuming they pick a similar name). all in all this will lead to a large amount of brand identity confusion, and i would beg you guys to at least wait a couple months to see the format shake out before potentially endangering something we all know and love.
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i feel that creating another format will only be exceedingly detrimental to all the work that has been done by those in france. new players, especially those in america will not know which format to try, they will not understand which format has been tested, and if the format that those here are attempting to create tanks, then that will reflect on duelcommander(especially assuming they pick a similar name). all in all this will lead to a large amount of brand identity confusion, and i would beg you guys to at least wait a couple months to see the format shake out before potentially endangering something we all know and love.
Yeah, I feel a lot of American players are plenty confused already, with no events in the country and "official" commander people like sheldon saying things like
"Official" Commander is a multiplayer game. 1v1 has no impact on the Rules Committee's philosophies or decisions. We recognize the fact that there is a 1v1 community, and people are welcome to play whatever variants on the format they wish (in that regard, we don't see much difference between 1v1 and Pauper, for example), but as far as by-the-book MtG: Commander goes, it's multiplayer all the way."
it can be frustrating.
Comparing 1v1 to pauper!?!? @_@ (To an audience that loves pimping pricey cards!? Damn.)
I'm not particularly hopeful for anything dc related to grow to the size of what paris or manila has. God bless the internet, though.
Yeah, I feel a lot of American players are plenty confused already, with no events in the country and "official" commander people like sheldon saying things like
"Official" Commander is a multiplayer game. 1v1 has no impact on the Rules Committee's philosophies or decisions. We recognize the fact that there is a 1v1 community, and people are welcome to play whatever variants on the format they wish (in that regard, we don't see much difference between 1v1 and Pauper, for example), but as far as by-the-book MtG: Commander goes, it's multiplayer all the way."
it can be frustrating.
Comparing 1v1 to pauper!?!? @_@ (To an audience that loves pimping pricey cards!? Damn.)
I'm not particularly hopeful for anything dc related to grow to the size of what paris or manila has. God bless the internet, though.
I agree with the first part. As to the second, I think that part will just take some hard work from people here in the states. There's a few of us that are trying to make that happen ^.^
This is the best update the RC has ever made. I'm very pleased with these changes, and my interest in the format has been reinvigorated. Now, if only I had time to play...
For those of you who think the format is now unplayable, there is nothing stopping you from setting up your own rules for you local store/playgroup. You will probably have fun playing a broken format for awhile but eventually it will become stale and uninteresting, and you will be facing the same problems that the RC faces today.
The first part was all you had to say. The second part could be translated to: "Do what you want, our list is better than any list you will ever come to." That's a little bit rude to me. I personally play the real Wizards banlist for my EDH duels as most Americans do, and we have all been okay playing broken cards like Mana Crypt and such while still getting really different competitive decks.
That's what I like of vintage. Instead of banning every great cards, you don't. Great cards are played against other great cards. And the format is pretty much balanced.
Duel Commander's banlist? Let's ban every good card and play only bad cards in a not so balanced format.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
if you only play with decks, which are all playing the regular multiplayer command list, then that puts you in the position of having quite a limited amount of playtime in a format which is exceedingly complex, deep, and varied. As such, your comments on what the format should and should not be have no basis. If you do not play this format then why are you upset by bans that do not effect you? and how can you insist our format is less relevant, or fun than what you are currently playing. The format is very complex and although someone who doesnt play it may not understand why cards are banned or unbanned, those who play the format are all rejoicing right now. this should tell you something. if you do not believe me, or you feel that my claims are invalid for some reason or another i would urge you to check back again in a couple of months on the forums, as well as mtg top 8, to see what is being played.
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To be fair, it was only banned as a commander. But if you come and take a look, you'll notice not only is it not banned, but the banlist has gotten progressively smaller (ignore the three or so cards I've caught that are bugged as, in any normal circumstance, they wouldn't ever be banned).
While I do stand by my decisions at the time as being right for the format, I would urge you to take another look (and by the way, it was a seven counter cap, not eight). The reasoning behind this was the heavy permission decks running rampant and actually detrimentally affecting the attendance numbers of the event; so I did what I could best come up with to, at the very least, "stop the bleeding" so to speak. It's true that many players just did not even feel compelled to join these events during such dark times, feeling almost "hopeless". However with the advent of commanders that are both powerful, and don't automatically lose to heavy permission.dek, thus making such strategies not as appealing, I have since been able to repeal the counter-cap.
But please, don't just take my word for it. Come on Magic Online for event 4.09 and have a run in my events. Then make a better-informed decision about it. I welcome all players!
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Overall I'm fine with just playing jenara, but it was nice oppress heavy blue permission while it lasted.
While I find rhythmguy's america post to be...undiplomatic, it's certainly a sentiment I've come across in various edh playgroups here in the
states.
Agree with you man.
Breeze of fresh air. Hope we can see a healthier format.
With zur gone. Rest and piece falls out of the format. That brings karador back, plus other graveyard decks which may not exist yet. With zur gone never more leaves the format, griselbrand, maelstrom wanderer, and prossh become relevant in entirety. Monolith was banned so decks without counters could still play against these ramp. This ban provided the extra turn or two to try and win. Maelstrom, the best of these 3 is best without creatures save the 3 titans and oath. Oath was removed to,again, give aggro time to play out against ramp.
Derevii gone brings back wydwen, and but probably not clique(marath is too good a matchup), derevii can only be countered by mind controls, shackles and old man and the sea, aka blue cards. Anyone wanting to swing through derevii needs to discard a removal spell just to swing. And then they have to do it again the next turn. Derevii's ability was broken without the twiddle. With it, it was oppressive.
The rule committee doesn't want spells which need counters to beat. This is why NO, and oath were banned. These bans are the ones people have been begging for. This is it. A meta which isn't completely forced on blue. Here it is, so start deck building, start experimenting. Zur is gone, so you don't have to play your parches, or your combusts, no more awful cards just for his sake. If you're worried about the meta, trust me, in two months the format will be more open and healthy than it's been in years. Zavros's and I playtest 2-3 hours most days, we love French, and we saw these bans coming. And what's coming after this is super super exciting. If your nervous get excited, if your angry, please be patient. If your curious nows the time to dive in.
As for those attempting to speak for every single American, you are not. There are many of us who are more than happy to keep French in the hands of the French rules committee. They have done a fantastic job with the format, and continue to guide it to exciting new places. Thank you for all your hard work and fantastic decision making.
Modern
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RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Although I'll be sad that Oath and Grim is gone in a few weeks. Definitely Marath will get the edge in the meta. MW... 1/2 designed has been abolished but that doesn't it's dead.
Zur and Dev being gone in meta will definitely open a lot of decks that usually dies to them by turn 3. On the bright side, Regular Commander still exist as a 1v1 game where people can still use Edric, Dev and Zur... and even Hermit. So there's the comparison between Vintage vs Legacy.
And I'm an asian living in the U.S.... I still prefer Duel Commander for tourney although I still play regular 1v1 from time to time.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
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Yea I got a judge promo one just for the format... time to sell! yay
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Me personally:
I agree with the derevi ban. That commander is too oppressive and has a stupid mechanic.
I feel that instead of banning zur, maybe a ban for helm and nevermore would help weaken Zur.
I agree with the grim monolith, oath of druids ban. Maybe natural order could have been left unbanned because its usually a t3 or t4 play (or later) and doesn't end the game immediately usually. (terrastodon on lands x[? )
I also don't like oloro. I feel that the passive lifegain will be hard for creature based beat down decks to deal with and therefore discourage creature based beat down decks if oloro becomes popular.
I dont want too many powerful cards to be banned because then the format would lose the "EDH spirit/ EDH feel" of playing with old and powerful cards.
Played with Ruhan and liked it, but haven't tried numot in this format. Would the ruhan list have be significantly altered to accomdate the big dragon while staying viable?
As a control player, I've been trying to build a control deck to beat derevi and after many attenpts I couldn't find a deck with a good win percentage against derevi.... this card is just too strong !The commity really sums it up well : derevi is the central piece of the deck and you can't ban the other cards because you would have to ban all of them.
I m also glad to see zur gone. As a deck builder, the challenge the zur deck posed was : anser zur right away or it will search for the most powerfull enchantment against you with mana cost smaller than 3 every turn. Couple that with the best contol cards of magic and you get the zur deck.... It was also really hard to design a good deck against it.
Finally for the bannings of NO and Oath, I have to agree that this will push aggro decks a bit more.... As it was told, the best answer to a NO or Oath are counterspells, NO turn 3 is a great play for an Aggro deck ! but NO turn 3 is also a great play for an Aggro control deck (bant for example) so if you have the choice between an aggro deck with NO and and aggro-control deck with NO and a solution to NO, the latter will be better because it has an answer to the NO. that's why people chose to play more aggro-control decks over pure aggro decks.
To sum up : A big thank you to the commite, who tries to keep an open format and tries to limit the overall power of the top decks, in order for the people to be able to innovate and discover new rogue decks by banning the generals that are overpowered compared to the rest of the legendary creatures ! (because yes : the raw power level of zur and derevi as generals was much too high compared to the rest of magic's legendary creatures)
As someone who has played 10+ actual tournaments for the past year or so (using 8 different commanders), I like the changes. Zur and Derevi weren't unbeatable, but both of them combined stifled the format and choked plenty of other decks out.
Good job RC!
This post is embarrassing.
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged
Turn 1 land + mana dork
Turn 2 Basalt Monolith
Turn 3 Power Artifact
Yeah, infinite mana on turn 3 is way worse I guess (but you still get to the same 6 mana on turn 3 without going infinite anyway)
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Zur the Enchanter is banned as a Commander
Zur the Enchanter has been one of the mainstays of the format for quite a while. After a first burst of domination at the end of 2012, we decided to ban Vanishing to give many decks a chance of coming back after Zur had attacked once. But several innovations brought Zur back to the top. First of all, Nevermore was included as a way to shore up many of Zur’s weaker matchups. Then, more controllish builds of the deck emerged, where the pilot could choose to delay playing the Commander as much as needed in order to protect it, but would still be able to punish the opponent if they ever tapped out. Finally, Helm of Obedience combined with the tutorable Rest in Peace made for an instant kill that permitted comfortable play of the Commander in timed rounds. All this made it into arguably the best deck of the format, with players choosing to learn the deck performing quite consistently, much more than would be explained by simple knowledge of the deck’s intricacies. Rather than try to weaken Zur further, we decided to stop the problem at the source and ban the Commander.
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician is banned as a Commander
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician is one of the more innovative Commanders to come out of the Commander 2013 set. It started out rather slow, placing only three copies in the top 8s of the three biggest tournaments this season, but then quickly rose to the top of statistics, taking multiple spots in the top 8s of later tournaments.
This led us to scrutinize quite deeply how Derevi decks function and what could explain their sudden rise to dominance. On the surface the Commander looks rather harmless, its triggered ability comparing quite unfavorably to Edric, Spymaster of Trest‘s. Its reduced cost didn’t seem much of a problem as the body is weak and it’s a good strategy to leave Derevi on the battlefield and concentrate your removal on the other threats.
However, a closer analysis revealed that Derevi combines with many cards to create an enormous advantage very quickly. Combined with Hokori, Dust Drinker, you can lock your opponent while not suffering the effects yourself. Combined with Bloom Tender, you can create 6 mana on turn three, for exampling letting you cast Frost Titan and completely lock your opponent out of the game. Combined with Birthing Pod you can tutor multiple creatures into play every turn, crushing the opponent under value. And these are only a few examples.
As a result, when playing against Derevi, you’re torn apart between trying to stop various threats which are quite good on their own, and trying to deal with a Commander that can come back very cheaply again and again. Not many decks are able to do that and still remain competitive against the rest of the field. Some specialized answers exist (Lignify, Darksteel Mutation, Gilded Drake) however we don’t want to turn matchups against Derevi into a lottery of whether you can find and resolve one of those scarce answers. So rather than try and ban any number of those otherwise interesting cards, we prefer banning the engine.
After these two Commanders are gone, the format is expected to shift towards ramp, a style of deck that had a hard time against these two. That’s why we think it’s a good moment to remove some of its weapons as well in order to give creature-based and counterless strategies a better chance, while avoiding games that are decided by turn 3.
Grim Monolith is banned
Grim Monolith is one of the last sources of fast mana available. You can cast 6-drops on turn 3 with nothing else but Grim Monolith, creating some hard-to-recover from board states. Griselbrand and Maelstrom Wanderer are much more dangerous when they can cast their Commander on turn 4, usually before the opponent has a decent chance of creating a strong enough board. Prossh, Skyraider of Kher landing on turn 3 will often threaten to end the game on the very next turn.
Natural Order is banned
Natural Order has a similar issue: it’s very easy to cast on turn 3. It’s usually not the right play to use removal on an Elf on turn 2, making the play hard to anticipate. And there is a choice of green creatures that are just too strong on turn 3. Primeval Titan can create an insurmountable incremental advantage, while Terastodon can lock certain opponents out entirely.
Oath of Druids is banned
Finally, Oath of Druids has been a long-standing boogeyman against anything creature-centric. While not played much, any game where one deck relied on creatures could see its plan crumble as early as turn 2. The fact that one needs to have only a small amount of creatures to play Oath of Druids in their deck is easily circumvented. It fits naturally into Maelstrom Wanderer whose plan is to reach 8 mana unscathed.
All this leads us to banning Grim Monolith, Natural Order, and Oath of Druids.
Vanishing is unbanned
And last, Vanishing’s only reason to be banned was in order to weaken Zur the Enchanter. With Zur gone, no reason to leave it banned.
Now, if you are still unsure why you should be following the RC's decisions, here's a couple more reasons.
Zur the Enchanter
Why can't we ban problem cards out of this deck? Sure, you can ban Rest in Peace, Darksteel mutation, nevermore, any of these 3 cmc or lower enchants, but, when does it stop? Each of these cards are fine on their own, its just that Zur can fetch these quite easily and can even break them (such as putting enchantments on hexproof creatures, like Thrun). If you do ban these cards, a zur player changes his deck around, and now he has a new set of utility enchantments that he can draw for free and get ahead of you. Maybe you ban all of these enchantments and zur is weakened for a bit; Wizards is still making magic cards and there will be new tools for this deck within a year, and zur just comes right back.
It's impossible to build a deck specifically to combat zur, as it will lose to everything else. Even with EnchantDestruction//KillZur.Deck, zur is likely to win this match as he can draw more cards than his opponent.
Derevi, Imperial Tactician
Every player can account for the commander tax to be a constant thing, and can base decisions on whether they should spend a removal spell on a commander to buy themselves time/tempo, or save it for another threat they can get rid of permanently (for the most part). Derevi completely ignores that aspect of the format, and is a constant threat that is nearly impossible to deal with.
Any deck that can create a fast lockdown on the game is not good for any format. Simply stopping people from casting spells and playing Magic is the easiest way to push players out of the format.
Grim Monolith, Natural Order, Oath of Druids
These bans are meant to make aggro better by weakening midrange and ramp decks.
An aggro deck depends on the early turns to get ahead of its opponent. It needs to play creatures and start swinging before its opponent can play more powerful spells. Each of these banned cards are enablers that can be played early enough in the game that they shut down aggro without any problem.
Cheating the natural resource progression of magic is very broken, as spells are costed by how powerful they are. Late game spells always trump early game spells. The way to beat late game spells is to out tempo your opponent and develop a stronger board or kill your opponent before they have a chance to cast them. In this 30 life format, its difficult to kill your opponent early, so you need a better board position. Grim/Natural/Oath all give you a nigh unbeatable board position early, which crushes other aggro/midrange decks who are just progressing naturally up their curve.
-Grim Monolith-
90% of the time a turn 2 monolith means you win the game on your 3rd turn.
There are powerful cards like primeval titan that can gain you a large advantage immediately, even if your opponent has an answer for it. If they don't answer it, they haven't technically lost until you swing a couple times, but then you are already so far ahead that they cannot comeback.
-Natural Order-
If you are playing natural order you are playing mana elves, as its the easiest and fastest way to cast a NO. Once again, on T3 you win the game.
-Oath of Druids-
Oath plays differently than the others, as your deck needs to be completely built around it, but 90% time you cast it T2 against a deck with creatures, the creature deck loses. How? Your opponent can unwittingly play a creature, and then next turn they lose to the emrakul or some other fatty you flip over on t3. If they try to play around it by not playing creatures, they lose because they need threats on the board to win and eventually the oath player draws their fatty and cast's it anyways.
Why doesn't your opponent just play disenchant effects? Creature decks do have answers to problem enchantments, but many of them can't be used on T2 as they are attached to a creature, or its a global answer like an Oblivion Ring. Lets say the creature player is playing a disenchant spell. The oath player usually doesn't play t2 oath anyways, and waits to protect it with a counterspell. The creature player has very few answers, so a single counterspell is usually enough to protect it for the turn it takes to get active.
Basically, a t2 oath is a little more risky, but the payout is you win the game, while a t4 oath is way less risky and the payout is you win the game.
For those of you who think the format is now unplayable, there is nothing stopping you from setting up your own rules for you local store/playgroup.
Just know that the French Banlist is intended to keep things fair and fun, and that the changes are well thought out and meant to make the format diverse and interesting.
Thanks for reading.
Thanks to the RC for keeping this format great.
Thanks to Hruen for the discussions about the format that these opinions are based on.
"Fine! I'll go build my own 1v1 Commander format, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the format and the blackjack."
A big thumbs up to the changes overall. I'm really fine with this format taking cues from the Legacy ban list. Cards that are proven degenerate in an eternal format, if anything, are more evidently ridiculous when they so randomly appear to ruin singleton games. I hope that Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Skullclamp, Earthcraft, and Survival of the Fittest get swept away in the next update. #shotsfired
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Yeah, I feel a lot of American players are plenty confused already, with no events in the country and "official" commander people like sheldon saying things like
"Official" Commander is a multiplayer game. 1v1 has no impact on the Rules Committee's philosophies or decisions. We recognize the fact that there is a 1v1 community, and people are welcome to play whatever variants on the format they wish (in that regard, we don't see much difference between 1v1 and Pauper, for example), but as far as by-the-book MtG: Commander goes, it's multiplayer all the way."
it can be frustrating.
Comparing 1v1 to pauper!?!? @_@ (To an audience that loves pimping pricey cards!? Damn.)
I'm not particularly hopeful for anything dc related to grow to the size of what paris or manila has. God bless the internet, though.
This.
I agree with the first part. As to the second, I think that part will just take some hard work from people here in the states. There's a few of us that are trying to make that happen ^.^
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics
[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
The first part was all you had to say. The second part could be translated to: "Do what you want, our list is better than any list you will ever come to." That's a little bit rude to me. I personally play the real Wizards banlist for my EDH duels as most Americans do, and we have all been okay playing broken cards like Mana Crypt and such while still getting really different competitive decks.
That's what I like of vintage. Instead of banning every great cards, you don't. Great cards are played against other great cards. And the format is pretty much balanced.
Duel Commander's banlist? Let's ban every good card and play only bad cards in a not so balanced format.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)