One of the key differences between Courser and Oracle is that Oracle lets you play two lands per turn. I'm considering adding the Oracle in.
So I got some test matches in last night, this time against a buddy playing Uril the Miststalker as Voltron. We split 6 games 50/50. In the end, whoever got their "combo" off won (if I cast Prossh and followed with Coat of Arms etc. I won, if he cast Uril and got a Swords or Armadillo Cloak/Unflinching Courage he won.) here's my notes:
-Xenagos, God of Revels will probably come in. In every game I asked myself "Would I want to cast Xenagos the turn before I cast Prossh?" Many times the answer was yes. One of the things I hadn't considered is that having Xenagos speeds up the clock by a full turn, which none of the other combos in the deck do since they all rely on casting Prossh and winning the next turn. It might replace Tears of Rage, which is the weakest of the kill combo spells. The other big benefit to Xenagos is that he makes Primeval Titan and Inferno Titan even better by granting them haste. I would be perfectly happy with casting Inferno Titan, spreading 6 damage and attacking for 12. Or tutoring for 4 lands.
-Whenever the opponent got Sylvan Library, he won.
-Rakdos' Return did get to wipe out 5 cards in one game, but it will be coming out of the deck because he still won that game. I've been disappointed with this card every game I see it.
-I really want more discard stuff, to the point of considering Wrench Mind and Honden of Night's Reach.
-Purphoros might come out. Many times I would cast him before Prossh, deal 14 damage, but I'm already in a racing situation against Voltron or Aggro, and I have no way to get rid of Prossh and cast him the next turn for the win. I think Purphoros saw play three times, and out of those three I only won once. Sneaking it in against Control decks is a great way to guarantee a win, but against Aggro/Voltron it's super awkward since I get 14 damage in but then die before I get to cast Prossh again for 16 damage.
-Garruk Wildspeaker will be coming out, as only his +1 is relevant and if he dies I lose that ramp. The question will be, Garruk Relentless or Garruk, Primal Hunter? I'm thinking Primal Hunter since the card draw is gravy.
-I might want one more kill card that relies on swinging with a big Prossh. I think the best card to use would be Phyresis, since in that situation I wouldn't want to lose Prossh after casting Berserk just in case, also because two natural swings still does the trick.
-Maybe it's because of the matchup, but my manlands did nothing. I never activated them in all three games. For entering the battlefield tapped, I might want to swap them for the Temple Scrylands.
-In the 10 test games I've had, hardly any games end on turn 5/6. Phyrexian Arena, Dark Confidant, and Dark Tutelage might come in; if not, I need to find more card refillers that fit. I do like Skullmulcher and Disciple of Bolas however I hate that they're dead cards before Prossh is cast.
I was also discussing with my friend about some card choices. He mentioned Smokestack. I think it won't make the cut, since it's a lockdown that can only start grinding after Prossh hits play, since I don't want to miss land drops. However, it made me think about Contamination and Grave Pact. Grave Pact would have saved my bacon in many of the games where Liliana of the Veil failed me. I still want to fit in Choke at some point.
List of cards I want to try and add in:
Xenagos, God of Revels
Garruk Relentless
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Grave Pact
Contamination
Choke
Temple of Abandon
Temple of Malice
Persecute
Slice and Dice
Starstorm
Hunting Wilds
Mind Slash
Phyresis
Wrench Mind
Honden of Night's Reach
ran rhe list a few times versus doran and it had a lil of a hard time. was drawing a little poorly though. does the deck warrant any change to improve that match up?
ran rhe list a few times versus doran and it had a lil of a hard time. was drawing a little poorly though. does the deck warrant any change to improve that match up?
Doran's just a hard list to beat. With the amount of hand destructio ripping your early ramp, the land destruction ripping your early lands and the speed that that guy can put pressure on, it's just a really hard list to beat. I've found Toxic Deluge to be an allstar in that matchup, along with just getting enough mana to cast Prossh. Unfortunately a lot of the removal this deck runs doesn't quite hit Doran, it either does 2, 3, or 4 damage or - counters. generally find that if I burn my early removal on all the little guys, try to draw into a killspell that can keep Doran off the board and drop Prossh then I can win without too much trouble. It's tough though, you have to get some pretty good hands. In that matchup I would recommend keeping hands that have more lands than non-lands. Between Sinkhole, Wasteland, Dust Bowl, and Rishadan Port it's sometimes hard to hit 6 mana fast enough, so the more lands the better. Once Prossh hits usually you have enough blockers to sustain. Just remember to save the art kills for Umezawe's Jitte and/or the Swords.
One of the key differences between Courser and Oracle is that Oracle lets you play two lands per turn. I'm considering adding the Oracle in.
So I got some test matches in last night, this time against a buddy playing Uril the Miststalker as Voltron. We split 6 games 50/50. In the end, whoever got their "combo" off won (if I cast Prossh and followed with Coat of Arms etc. I won, if he cast Uril and got a Swords or Armadillo Cloak/Unflinching Courage he won.) here's my notes:
-Xenagos, God of Revels will probably come in. In every game I asked myself "Would I want to cast Xenagos the turn before I cast Prossh?" Many times the answer was yes. One of the things I hadn't considered is that having Xenagos speeds up the clock by a full turn, which none of the other combos in the deck do since they all rely on casting Prossh and winning the next turn. It might replace Tears of Rage, which is the weakest of the kill combo spells. The other big benefit to Xenagos is that he makes Primeval Titan and Inferno Titan even better by granting them haste. I would be perfectly happy with casting Inferno Titan, spreading 6 damage and attacking for 12. Or tutoring for 4 lands.
-Whenever the opponent got Sylvan Library, he won.
-Rakdos' Return did get to wipe out 5 cards in one game, but it will be coming out of the deck because he still won that game. I've been disappointed with this card every game I see it.
-I really want more discard stuff, to the point of considering Wrench Mind and Honden of Night's Reach.
-Purphoros might come out. Many times I would cast him before Prossh, deal 14 damage, but I'm already in a racing situation against Voltron or Aggro, and I have no way to get rid of Prossh and cast him the next turn for the win. I think Purphoros saw play three times, and out of those three I only won once. Sneaking it in against Control decks is a great way to guarantee a win, but against Aggro/Voltron it's super awkward since I get 14 damage in but then die before I get to cast Prossh again for 16 damage.
-Garruk Wildspeaker will be coming out, as only his +1 is relevant and if he dies I lose that ramp. The question will be, Garruk Relentless or Garruk, Primal Hunter? I'm thinking Primal Hunter since the card draw is gravy.
-I might want one more kill card that relies on swinging with a big Prossh. I think the best card to use would be Phyresis, since in that situation I wouldn't want to lose Prossh after casting Berserk just in case, also because two natural swings still does the trick.
-Maybe it's because of the matchup, but my manlands did nothing. I never activated them in all three games. For entering the battlefield tapped, I might want to swap them for the Temple Scrylands.
-In the 10 test games I've had, hardly any games end on turn 5/6. Phyrexian Arena, Dark Confidant, and Dark Tutelage might come in; if not, I need to find more card refillers that fit. I do like Skullmulcher and Disciple of Bolas however I hate that they're dead cards before Prossh is cast.
I was also discussing with my friend about some card choices. He mentioned Smokestack. I think it won't make the cut, since it's a lockdown that can only start grinding after Prossh hits play, since I don't want to miss land drops. However, it made me think about Contamination and Grave Pact. Grave Pact would have saved my bacon in many of the games where Liliana of the Veil failed me. I still want to fit in Choke at some point.
List of cards I want to try and add in:
Xenagos, God of Revels
Garruk Relentless
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Grave Pact
Contamination
Choke
Temple of Abandon
Temple of Malice
Persecute
Slice and Dice
Starstorm
Hunting Wilds
Mind Slash
Phyresis
Wrench Mind
Honden of Night's Reach
Prossh lends itself quite well to a stax/control list if you want to try it out. It's basically grinding the opponent down through the resource engine that is your general until you can top/tutor into your combo and win. That being said, I can't really recommend cutting ol' Purphy. It enables the food chain combo, can't be killed in response, isn't expensive to cast, and in a pinch gives an alternate wincon through boosting your army of kobolds.
Playing a really small local tournament tomorrow and I would appreciate some feedback on my list. Is there some paramount card I am missing or is one or several card choices just stupid?
I guess it is a mix of combo and beatdown, Prossh being the keycard in both strategies. Any comment is appreciated, consider that I am holding it semi-budget
It looks like a pretty flexible list. I don't think I would be running the Tainted Pact in there, you don't have the singleton base to support it. If you can find one I'd replace it with either a Deathrite Shaman or a Diabolic Intent. I think Deathrite's going for about $10 and the Intent you can find online for about $5-6. Liliana of the Veil might be out of your price range, but I've found Garruk Relentless to be an allstar in the deck. I also consider Toxic Deluge to be a must include in here. Sometimes you just need a wipe, and that one does the trick 99.9% of the time. I would also probably recommend cutting the Boreal, arbor, and priest for the 2 other signets and the deathrite I recommended above. I've never found those guys working for my list. JUst my thoughts. Let us know how your tournie goes!
I'm not playing the type of deck that you're suggesting. My list is aggro/combo, not pure combo, so none of your suggestions made any sense for the decklist that I posted. If you're running the pure combo version though I think some of that had merit. If you recommend cutting Beastmaster Ascension, though, you obviously haven't even played the deck. If you have, and you want to cut it, you should probably just not play it in the first place. That card is probably the single most powerful finisher the deck has, even more so than Food Chain. Every Prossh deck in existence should run it.
An for the record, Garruk allows a T4 Prossh if you drop it T3, gets a blocker when you need one, and I hear his ultimate (Which is 1 turn actiavtion to get online) overruns your huge army of kobolds. I've won off garruk so many times it's absurd. Absolutely should be in the deck. I can't understand how you could even consider cutting it lol.
My list is more combo, so I can comment on a few of Windux's suggestions. One big note is that my decklist runs three creatures, not including the two gods, so I'll skip over all creature-oriented suggestions.
-About Garruk; I took out Wildspeaker in favor of Primal Hunter. My reasoning is that as a 4 mana ramp spell, Skyshroud Claim is superior. If Wildspeaker dies, I lose that ramp. Going from 4 to 6 does get Prossh online, but one of the problems I encounter is that I hardly ever get to go for the combo win before turn 5-6. Turn 5-6 is goldfishing, around turn 7-10 is more realistic when facing actual opponents that are interacting with me. Wildspeaker's - ability isn't terribly strong, and Primal Hunter makes Beasts just the same but also ticks up in Loyalty, rather than down. My main combos all aim to win in one turn, rather than gradual (i.e. no Curse of Predation), so -3/-3 and trample to 7 creatures is only +21 damage and does not deal enough to win upon activation. Primal Hunter's -3 has the potential to draw me a LOT of cards, especially if I sacrifice all my Kobolds first. Draw 11 is awesome I hear. And Primal Hunter's ultimate is more game ending, in the sense that I can win without Prossh being on board and making 6+ 6/6's will definitely get there.
-Beastmaster Ascension- This requires all 6 of my Kobolds and Prossh to attack at the same time for maximum effectiveness. As I said before, my main combo wins- Coat of Arms, Hit/Run, etc- all try to win the turn I cast it, and don't necessarily require Prossh to even be on the board to do so. Ascension is cool, but it has the awkward potential to get 6 counters and then have someone cast disenchant on it. I need to be prepared to win the turn I cast a boost, or it needs to provide an awesome boost that's always active even if I fail, like Coat of Arms.
-Goblin Bombardment. I initially suggested this, but I'm currently cutting it in favor of Grave Pact. I realized that 1 damage pings do not kill the opponent effectively, and are better at sniping creatures, and Grave Pact is more effective than Goblin Bombardment at creature control. Against any singular Commander strategy, especially Voltron, it's a pure lockdown card. I tutored for it against Uril in a practice game and he scooped immediately. The triple black also doesn't worry me, I haven't had color issues yet.
-Food Chain. I think one of the biggest dangers with this card is that if you go too happy with it, and if the opponent destroys it at the right moment, you might have exiled Prossh too many times and can't cast him again. Another big thing I don't like is that Food Chain is not a one card combo with Prossh, which I try to prioritize. Food Chain goes infinite and does dirty things but you have to run lots of creatures and you need one other card to win the game on the spot with it.
-Xenagos. I realize he doesn't give Trample but he gives inevitability. He's earned a slot in my deck as he counts as a 1 card combo with Prossh, that happens to have more uses, and the most important aspect, which has saved me many games, is the fact that he speeds up the clock by one turn, which is crucial. In every scenario where I draw a different win card, I'd win on say turn 6, the turn after I cast Prossh. Xnegaos would mean I win on turn 5. Xenagos helps me race which is very important, and he allows me to attack with the "Big Lethal Prossh" combo that provides variety compared to my normal method of only caring about the Kobolds. Xenagos is my out if my opponent finds a way to stop my Kobold horde.
Earthcraft is a really powerful card in this deck, there's no question. The only thing I worry about is it being "win more", we've already got Prossh/Food Chain combo and an insane ramp package, I just don't know if Earthcraft is necessary. Usually wrath effects are pretty easily overcome by just recasting Prossh, he provides that "army in a can" effect all on his own. A cyclonic rift will end the game most times, but if a blue deck gets to your end step with 7 mana untapped it can be gg anyways, so the goal is to kill them before that happens. This isn't necessarily a late game deck (at least my aggro/combo version) so if it does get there I've usually lost. I don't think Momentous Fall is better than any of the other draw effects I have, and it requires saving mana up which I don't like. If you did use it I would recommend replacing Disciple of Bolas with it, they have identical effects, just the Disciple can be had through Survival and is a creature to feed the army of sac/damage effects the deck has.
I like this deck a lot, especially the more combo-control version running lots acceleration and Coat of Arms-type cards. However, my local meta-game is very heavy on blue control decks, with several people consistently running mono-blue decks and most other multi-colour decks being blue based as well, and while I like the deck, I'm concerned about being able to resolve any of my kill spells. While they cannot stop the kobolds, they can hold back and stop the cards I need to run to make the Kobolds do anything useful.
In such an environment, I think cards like Thoughtseize are going to be the key for me winning, but I wonder if Mind Slash wouldn't also be a good card to run. If they spend a counter spell on it, then it worked just as good as using something like Coercion to strip a counter spell from their hand, but if it resolves, I could use one casting of Prossh and his Kobolds, to strip their hand of spells and use the next casting to resolve one of my kill spells.
Does this sound like a good idea? Are there other cards that I could use effectively in such a heavy blue metagame?
The best route that I've found to beating blue is with massive amounts of card draw, coupled with dropping threats almost every turn. The hand destruction is absolutely an amazing tool in this matchup, but it won't win the game. Generally I find that just straight out-resourcing them is the best way to go though. Things like Skullmulcher, Disciple of Bolas, Skullclamp, Phyrexian Arena, Dark Tutelage, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant are your best friends in this matchup.
Also, Mistcutter Hydra. That thing is just a house against blue.
As a combo player, usually I make them spit the first counterspell on prossh (because a 5/5 flying is usually a good threat). If it's not countered, then fine, i bash with him. Otherwise i get a peek at their hand with thoughtseize stuff (max one turn before comboing off, don't waste it on the 1st turn), or discard the whole hand with parallax nexus or rakdos's return (or at least force them to use a 2nd counterspell). Then i try to combo off with stuff like coat of arms.
Otherwise, the tutors are very useful to fetch for cavern of souls and kessig wolf run (depending on the board state), both of them letting me applying pressure without worrying about counters.
I still really like tainted strike, psychotic fury and assault strobe here for their potential to win the game on the spot for 1-2 mana. psych fury will also prevent the 2-for-1 because of the cantrip effect. seems odd to run seize the day before these.
I'm not running the Day in the list any longer, that was for the multiplayer variant. I'm personally not really a fan of the 1 shot effects, they're just screaming for you to get 2 for 1'd, other than the fury. The fury also is only a 1 shot if you sac all your kobolds, and if they kill it in response to the sac you just burned all your kobolds for nothing, which I'm not a fan of. If I had a slot that I really wasn't happy with I might try it, but as is I really can't think of anything that I'd cut that's a little less powerful than those. Test it, though, let me know how it works!
I'm not running the Day in the list any longer, that was for the multiplayer variant. I'm personally not really a fan of the 1 shot effects, they're just screaming for you to get 2 for 1'd, other than the fury. The fury also is only a 1 shot if you sac all your kobolds, and if they kill it in response to the sac you just burned all your kobolds for nothing, which I'm not a fan of. If I had a slot that I really wasn't happy with I might try it, but as is I really can't think of anything that I'd cut that's a little less powerful than those. Test it, though, let me know how it works!
is it really that hard to recast prossh, though? prossh decks have copious ways to make sick amounts of mana, since casting and re-casting prossh is essential to the gameplan. Give it a try and see how it plays. They've been stars for me in my multiplayer version. sure, someone will swords prossh if they can, but he's coming right back the next turn, with even more kobolds in tow. my list does not really focus on doing things with tokens on the board (other than attempting to win the game asap), so with the staxxxy lists and whatnot I could see why you'd not want to include them. In a duel setting especially, and looking at your list, it doesnt look like too many cards benefit from tokens remaining on the board all that long (fleshbag marauder and skullclamp excepted). they make good chump blockers, though. hmm.
They've won several games for me. kobolds come practically for free, so I wouldnt be so hesitant to lose them, especially on a really good chance to end the game on the spot.
maybe try subbing in tainted and psychotic fury for mistcutter hydra and thrun? Those are great anti-blue beaters, but do they really get you there? those cards can win you the game via voltroning, but it doesnt seem like they get any support from the rest of your deck. it seems like in a 1v1 setting, if you're worried about blue, you'd be better off running a couple cards like pyroblast, mages' contest, boil, or curse of marit lage. If I'm up against a blue deck, I'd rather have one of those or one of the cheap one-shotters. if it gets countered, keep your tokens, no big deal. creature removal targeting prossh is a bigger worry, but instant removal is going to be a problem for food chain combo as well; it just seems like the ever-present threat of a well-timed removal instant shouldnt deter you from running, well...anything, really.
I'm not running the Day in the list any longer, that was for the multiplayer variant. I'm personally not really a fan of the 1 shot effects, they're just screaming for you to get 2 for 1'd, other than the fury. The fury also is only a 1 shot if you sac all your kobolds, and if they kill it in response to the sac you just burned all your kobolds for nothing, which I'm not a fan of. If I had a slot that I really wasn't happy with I might try it, but as is I really can't think of anything that I'd cut that's a little less powerful than those. Test it, though, let me know how it works!
is it really that hard to recast prossh, though? prossh decks have copious ways to make sick amounts of mana, since casting and re-casting prossh is essential to the gameplan. Give it a try and see how it plays. They've been stars for me in my multiplayer version. sure, someone will swords prossh if they can, but he's coming right back the next turn, with even more kobolds in tow. my list does not really focus on doing things with tokens on the board (other than attempting to win the game asap), so with the staxxxy lists and whatnot I could see why you'd not want to include them. In a duel setting especially, and looking at your list, it doesnt look like too many cards benefit from tokens remaining on the board all that long (fleshbag marauder and skullclamp excepted). they make good chump blockers, though. hmm.
They've won several games for me. kobolds come practically for free, so I wouldnt be so hesitant to lose them, especially on a really good chance to end the game on the spot.
maybe try subbing in tainted and psychotic fury for mistcutter hydra and thrun? Those are great anti-blue beaters, but do they really get you there? those cards can win you the game via voltroning, but it doesnt seem like they get any support from the rest of your deck. it seems like in a 1v1 setting, if you're worried about blue, you'd be better off running a couple cards like pyroblast, mages' contest, boil, or curse of marit lage. If I'm up against a blue deck, I'd rather have one of those or one of the cheap one-shotters. if it gets countered, keep your tokens, no big deal. creature removal targeting prossh is a bigger worry, but instant removal is going to be a problem for food chain combo as well; it just seems like the ever-present threat of a well-timed removal instant shouldnt deter you from running, well...anything, really.
I think you should play those cards in a 1v1 setting, then come back and let me know how they do ^.^ There are a ton of cards that are very viable in multiplayer that literally aren't playable in a competitive 1v1 setting, and truest me when I tell you that those 1 shot effects are not. The basic idea is that if a cute 1 shot effect is going to work, then you've already got the game in the bag, therefore there's not too much of a point to playing them in the first place. The problem is that against a control match, those cards are going to either A: get countered or B: get you 2 for 1'd. Sure, there might be 1 game in 10 that it gets you there, but I know for a fact that I would much rather see an uncounterable threat like Thrun or Mistcutter than a 1 shot that just burns my own resources just to see it get countered. I don't even play Xenagos in my list, and he's a repeatable effect that's also indestructible.
Again, test it out and see how it goes. Multiplayer advice really isn't viable here in 1v1 though. I appreciate that you're participating and I hope you continue to do so, but until you have some actual data and matches in a competitive 1v1 setting to back up these ideas I think you should save them for the multiplayer side I have literally thousands of matches under my belt with this deck and my Skullbriar list, and while I'm certainly not the end-all be-all expert on the format, I do know there are certain types of cards that just don't work. very few, if any 1 shot effects that aren't repeatable and/or use your own resources without replacing those resources are viable. Bottom line :/
The reason that I'm not playing the specific hate cards is that they're uselss in any non-U mathchup, of which there are many. I also don't have a discard effect to make them even a little bit useful. Things like Thrun and the Hydra are still insane even against non-U decks. they just get that much better against U.
good points. I don't play 1v1 often, but I look at those cards and they seem like they would be better in that setting. but I dont play 1v1 in any kind of developed meta, and I hear control is king, so I guess I don't really have a proper gauge. I dont know if they would only be useful when youve already got the game in the bag though, that seems like a stretch. I guess if you can hit with prossh at all, yeah, maybe you're winning? is that always true? it seems like there would be plenty of opportunity for these things to be true: 1. prossh can hit in the air, and 2. opponent doesnt happen to have a creature killer or counter in hand. of course, you need all your 'bolds for it to work, and that's probably not going to happen against heavy control.
Ill be attending another 1v1 tourney at my LGS in one week... I'll try and report how I do. Hopefully we'll have a higher attendance than last month.
Great! I'm going to attend a championship this weekend and I'm not 100% sure if Prossh is way to go. I played with it last tournament and it got me a 3rd place. List here.
I've been tweaking the list since then and it looks much better now. I'll post it when I get home cuz I'm at work atm. I really like the way you built your deck. And I do think is the right way to go.. My list has few creatures' but more than yours (12 to be exact but some might get cut).
I found too hard to rely on cards like Beastmaster Ascencion because due low creature count, my opponent most likely will have a spot removal and it would fail. Although, I'm still running Food Chain combo because I love combo XD. Don't you like it? I know the way the deck is built, if you get a wrath, ur probably losing but it works kinda the same way as Xenagos. They NEED the removal. How Xenagos has been working out for you? I never actually tried him into my deck.. The effect is great but its only target is Prossh. I found that Xenagos would also benefit Garruk, Primal -3 ability which can be great. Maybe I'd give him a shot since he would work with Food Chain same as Ogre Battledriver. And bring inevitability along with it.
I don't like Hit // Run too much. I know it's bonkers, I used to run it but most of times I found it wasn't enough. And due its single use as wincon, didn't think it would make the cut. I prefer 'repeatable' effects like Coat of Arms.
I found Dark Ritual to be extremely effective in this deck. Dropping Liliana or Arena on t1 is really insane. I know it's difficult to happen but there is the possibility. What's your thoughts about it? Just realized that you don't use Arena. Is it because you have more draw effects such as Ancient Craving, etc? And how they've been? They seem to work pretty well in your deck the way it is. They value cards like Exploration and Fastbond even more.
And what do you think about hate cards such as Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, Choke, Red Elemental Blast, etc? Is it really worth it to run any of those? I run Rakdos Charm with that purpose.. gy and artifact hate on the same card.
Sorry for my bad english and I thank you! I appreciate that you shared your list.
Ill be attending another 1v1 tourney at my LGS in one week... I'll try and report how I do. Hopefully we'll have a higher attendance than last month.
I don't see Food Chain in your list...? Food Chain is definitely the strongest combo piece in the deck. It gives you an instant win with any other combo piece (Purphoros, Skullclamp, Goblin Bombardment, etc.) and gives you tons of mana too abuse otherwise. In fact, Food Chain is kind of a main draw to playing the deck as otherwise Prossh doesn't have many advantages over MW.
I also think you can afford to play less sweepers, as this deck is actually pretty well equipped against aggro strats with a huge amount of chump blockers and a 5/5 dragon usually available by turn 4. The deck probably doesn't need more than Toxic Deluge, Damnation and Jund Charm. I really like Rakdos Return or Mind Shatter in these slots (especially with Food Chain). I also like to include more enchantment/artifact removal, as enchantments like Nevermore, Curse of Death's Hold, or Treachery are some of the most powerful against you. I especially like Nature's Claim and Seal of Primordium.
Ill be attending another 1v1 tourney at my LGS in one week... I'll try and report how I do. Hopefully we'll have a higher attendance than last month.
I don't see Food Chain in your list...? Food Chain is definitely the strongest combo piece in the deck. It gives you an instant win with any other combo piece (Purphoros, Skullclamp, Goblin Bombardment, etc.) and gives you tons of mana too abuse otherwise. In fact, Food Chain is kind of a main draw to playing the deck as otherwise Prossh doesn't have many advantages over MW.
I also think you can afford to play less sweepers, as this deck is actually pretty well equipped against aggro strats with a huge amount of chump blockers and a 5/5 dragon usually available by turn 4. The deck probably doesn't need more than Toxic Deluge, Damnation and Jund Charm. I really like Rakdos Return or Mind Shatter in these slots (especially with Food Chain). I also like to include more enchantment/artifact removal, as enchantments like Nevermore, Curse of Death's Hold, or Treachery are some of the most powerful against you. I especially like Nature's Claim and Seal of Primordium.
Those chump blockers you are talking about are the kobolds, right? Kobolds are supposed to be win conditions along with Coat of Arms-like spells. If you are chump blocking with them, you're probably behind.. I don't think that less sweepers would work out here. This deck seems really fragile against aggro decks if it doesn't sweep those swarms away.
Also Food Chain generates mana only for creatures..
Ill be attending another 1v1 tourney at my LGS in one week... I'll try and report how I do. Hopefully we'll have a higher attendance than last month.
I don't see Food Chain in your list...? Food Chain is definitely the strongest combo piece in the deck. It gives you an instant win with any other combo piece (Purphoros, Skullclamp, Goblin Bombardment, etc.) and gives you tons of mana too abuse otherwise. In fact, Food Chain is kind of a main draw to playing the deck as otherwise Prossh doesn't have many advantages over MW.
Food Chain doesn't work *that* well with Skullclamp because the mana generated can only be used for creature spells.
Quick question: why use toxic deluge over damnation? Yes it is one mana cheaper but it requires life. Hopefully my list (even though not French) can be used for somee ideas. How useful is mogis and xenegos (god cards) inn tye prosh list? Thinking of testing it. Will post myy multiplayer list inn the multi prosh thread, has qon 2 eventsbso far so could be useful to some
Ill be attending another 1v1 tourney at my LGS in one week... I'll try and report how I do. Hopefully we'll have a higher attendance than last month.
I don't see Food Chain in your list...? Food Chain is definitely the strongest combo piece in the deck. It gives you an instant win with any other combo piece (Purphoros, Skullclamp, Goblin Bombardment, etc.) and gives you tons of mana too abuse otherwise. In fact, Food Chain is kind of a main draw to playing the deck as otherwise Prossh doesn't have many advantages over MW.
Food Chain doesn't work *that* well with Skullclamp because the mana generated can only be used for creature spells.
Food Chain doesn't work at all with Skullclamp because 'Clamp needs the critters to die but FC doesn't "kill" them - it exiles them.
What does work is making an infinity of 0/1s and clamping them afterward transforming clamp into a "pay 1, draw 2" which is pretty insane.
That being said, in my opinion, food chain is the worse kill prossh can play, because it requires an extra turn to kill, and it needs a third card to kill. And if you take a wrath, you wont cast prossh ever again.
If you get a wrath, you're doomed and a spot removal delays another turn. The delay is pretty annoying but it usually kills next turn if you go infinite. Most of aggro decks loses to a single wrath and they still play aggro. Don't you think it's worth to play Food Chain anyway?
I dont run Food Chain because I run 4 creatures. Food Chain is better in the more Aggro-centric Prossh lists like Feverous' list up above. Food Chain also requires more than one other card to win, whereas Shared Animosity, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Coat of Arms, Hit, and Xenagos, God of Revels are one card combos with Prossh. Xenagos is my go-to since it speeds up my clock by one full turn, and he's indestructible in case the opponent has artifact/enchantment hate.
I like Hit because it is also acts as a Diabolic Edict effect. Its flexible, so it will never be a dead card.
Dark Ritual is too inconsistent for ramp. I like to win fast but I also need to have enough gas to win the drawn-out games. My average goldfish is turn 5-6, but since the opponent is interacting sometimes it becomes an attrition war and I don't win until turn 20.
Besides Damnation, Toxic Deluge, and Jund Charm, I run two sweepers, but they both have Cycling so that they are never dead cards.
Torpor Orb is interesting, but shuts off my Purphoros kill and Primetime's ETB. Theres not any ETB creatures that I'm completely scared of.
Stranglehold is good, but slots are tight. Aven Mindcensor is better in that role, because 3 mana and flash makes a huge difference.
Choke is in consideration, but it is a dead card sometimes.
I use the Kobolds as chump blockers first. When "the time is right" I'll switch to kill mode and then they become the win condition. Up until then, they're uncountetable fodder.
I took out Rakdos's Return because it was disappointing every time I cast it. I replaced it with Persecute, which does the trick at less mana. I might toy around with Mind Games also.
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
So I got some test matches in last night, this time against a buddy playing Uril the Miststalker as Voltron. We split 6 games 50/50. In the end, whoever got their "combo" off won (if I cast Prossh and followed with Coat of Arms etc. I won, if he cast Uril and got a Swords or Armadillo Cloak/Unflinching Courage he won.) here's my notes:
-Xenagos, God of Revels will probably come in. In every game I asked myself "Would I want to cast Xenagos the turn before I cast Prossh?" Many times the answer was yes. One of the things I hadn't considered is that having Xenagos speeds up the clock by a full turn, which none of the other combos in the deck do since they all rely on casting Prossh and winning the next turn. It might replace Tears of Rage, which is the weakest of the kill combo spells. The other big benefit to Xenagos is that he makes Primeval Titan and Inferno Titan even better by granting them haste. I would be perfectly happy with casting Inferno Titan, spreading 6 damage and attacking for 12. Or tutoring for 4 lands.
-Whenever the opponent got Sylvan Library, he won.
-Rakdos' Return did get to wipe out 5 cards in one game, but it will be coming out of the deck because he still won that game. I've been disappointed with this card every game I see it.
-I really want more discard stuff, to the point of considering Wrench Mind and Honden of Night's Reach.
-Purphoros might come out. Many times I would cast him before Prossh, deal 14 damage, but I'm already in a racing situation against Voltron or Aggro, and I have no way to get rid of Prossh and cast him the next turn for the win. I think Purphoros saw play three times, and out of those three I only won once. Sneaking it in against Control decks is a great way to guarantee a win, but against Aggro/Voltron it's super awkward since I get 14 damage in but then die before I get to cast Prossh again for 16 damage.
-Garruk Wildspeaker will be coming out, as only his +1 is relevant and if he dies I lose that ramp. The question will be, Garruk Relentless or Garruk, Primal Hunter? I'm thinking Primal Hunter since the card draw is gravy.
-I might want one more kill card that relies on swinging with a big Prossh. I think the best card to use would be Phyresis, since in that situation I wouldn't want to lose Prossh after casting Berserk just in case, also because two natural swings still does the trick.
-Maybe it's because of the matchup, but my manlands did nothing. I never activated them in all three games. For entering the battlefield tapped, I might want to swap them for the Temple Scrylands.
-In the 10 test games I've had, hardly any games end on turn 5/6. Phyrexian Arena, Dark Confidant, and Dark Tutelage might come in; if not, I need to find more card refillers that fit. I do like Skullmulcher and Disciple of Bolas however I hate that they're dead cards before Prossh is cast.
I was also discussing with my friend about some card choices. He mentioned Smokestack. I think it won't make the cut, since it's a lockdown that can only start grinding after Prossh hits play, since I don't want to miss land drops. However, it made me think about Contamination and Grave Pact. Grave Pact would have saved my bacon in many of the games where Liliana of the Veil failed me. I still want to fit in Choke at some point.
List of cards I want to try and add in:
Xenagos, God of Revels
Garruk Relentless
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Grave Pact
Contamination
Choke
Temple of Abandon
Temple of Malice
Persecute
Slice and Dice
Starstorm
Hunting Wilds
Mind Slash
Phyresis
Wrench Mind
Honden of Night's Reach
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Doran's just a hard list to beat. With the amount of hand destructio ripping your early ramp, the land destruction ripping your early lands and the speed that that guy can put pressure on, it's just a really hard list to beat. I've found Toxic Deluge to be an allstar in that matchup, along with just getting enough mana to cast Prossh. Unfortunately a lot of the removal this deck runs doesn't quite hit Doran, it either does 2, 3, or 4 damage or - counters. generally find that if I burn my early removal on all the little guys, try to draw into a killspell that can keep Doran off the board and drop Prossh then I can win without too much trouble. It's tough though, you have to get some pretty good hands. In that matchup I would recommend keeping hands that have more lands than non-lands. Between Sinkhole, Wasteland, Dust Bowl, and Rishadan Port it's sometimes hard to hit 6 mana fast enough, so the more lands the better. Once Prossh hits usually you have enough blockers to sustain. Just remember to save the art kills for Umezawe's Jitte and/or the Swords.
Prossh lends itself quite well to a stax/control list if you want to try it out. It's basically grinding the opponent down through the resource engine that is your general until you can top/tutor into your combo and win. That being said, I can't really recommend cutting ol' Purphy. It enables the food chain combo, can't be killed in response, isn't expensive to cast, and in a pinch gives an alternate wincon through boosting your army of kobolds.
It looks like a pretty flexible list. I don't think I would be running the Tainted Pact in there, you don't have the singleton base to support it. If you can find one I'd replace it with either a Deathrite Shaman or a Diabolic Intent. I think Deathrite's going for about $10 and the Intent you can find online for about $5-6. Liliana of the Veil might be out of your price range, but I've found Garruk Relentless to be an allstar in the deck. I also consider Toxic Deluge to be a must include in here. Sometimes you just need a wipe, and that one does the trick 99.9% of the time. I would also probably recommend cutting the Boreal, arbor, and priest for the 2 other signets and the deathrite I recommended above. I've never found those guys working for my list. JUst my thoughts. Let us know how your tournie goes!
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An for the record, Garruk allows a T4 Prossh if you drop it T3, gets a blocker when you need one, and I hear his ultimate (Which is 1 turn actiavtion to get online) overruns your huge army of kobolds. I've won off garruk so many times it's absurd. Absolutely should be in the deck. I can't understand how you could even consider cutting it lol.
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-About Garruk; I took out Wildspeaker in favor of Primal Hunter. My reasoning is that as a 4 mana ramp spell, Skyshroud Claim is superior. If Wildspeaker dies, I lose that ramp. Going from 4 to 6 does get Prossh online, but one of the problems I encounter is that I hardly ever get to go for the combo win before turn 5-6. Turn 5-6 is goldfishing, around turn 7-10 is more realistic when facing actual opponents that are interacting with me. Wildspeaker's - ability isn't terribly strong, and Primal Hunter makes Beasts just the same but also ticks up in Loyalty, rather than down. My main combos all aim to win in one turn, rather than gradual (i.e. no Curse of Predation), so -3/-3 and trample to 7 creatures is only +21 damage and does not deal enough to win upon activation. Primal Hunter's -3 has the potential to draw me a LOT of cards, especially if I sacrifice all my Kobolds first. Draw 11 is awesome I hear. And Primal Hunter's ultimate is more game ending, in the sense that I can win without Prossh being on board and making 6+ 6/6's will definitely get there.
-Beastmaster Ascension- This requires all 6 of my Kobolds and Prossh to attack at the same time for maximum effectiveness. As I said before, my main combo wins- Coat of Arms, Hit/Run, etc- all try to win the turn I cast it, and don't necessarily require Prossh to even be on the board to do so. Ascension is cool, but it has the awkward potential to get 6 counters and then have someone cast disenchant on it. I need to be prepared to win the turn I cast a boost, or it needs to provide an awesome boost that's always active even if I fail, like Coat of Arms.
-Goblin Bombardment. I initially suggested this, but I'm currently cutting it in favor of Grave Pact. I realized that 1 damage pings do not kill the opponent effectively, and are better at sniping creatures, and Grave Pact is more effective than Goblin Bombardment at creature control. Against any singular Commander strategy, especially Voltron, it's a pure lockdown card. I tutored for it against Uril in a practice game and he scooped immediately. The triple black also doesn't worry me, I haven't had color issues yet.
-Food Chain. I think one of the biggest dangers with this card is that if you go too happy with it, and if the opponent destroys it at the right moment, you might have exiled Prossh too many times and can't cast him again. Another big thing I don't like is that Food Chain is not a one card combo with Prossh, which I try to prioritize. Food Chain goes infinite and does dirty things but you have to run lots of creatures and you need one other card to win the game on the spot with it.
-Xenagos. I realize he doesn't give Trample but he gives inevitability. He's earned a slot in my deck as he counts as a 1 card combo with Prossh, that happens to have more uses, and the most important aspect, which has saved me many games, is the fact that he speeds up the clock by one turn, which is crucial. In every scenario where I draw a different win card, I'd win on say turn 6, the turn after I cast Prossh. Xnegaos would mean I win on turn 5. Xenagos helps me race which is very important, and he allows me to attack with the "Big Lethal Prossh" combo that provides variety compared to my normal method of only caring about the Kobolds. Xenagos is my out if my opponent finds a way to stop my Kobold horde.
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam
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[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
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BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
In such an environment, I think cards like Thoughtseize are going to be the key for me winning, but I wonder if Mind Slash wouldn't also be a good card to run. If they spend a counter spell on it, then it worked just as good as using something like Coercion to strip a counter spell from their hand, but if it resolves, I could use one casting of Prossh and his Kobolds, to strip their hand of spells and use the next casting to resolve one of my kill spells.
Does this sound like a good idea? Are there other cards that I could use effectively in such a heavy blue metagame?
Also, Mistcutter Hydra. That thing is just a house against blue.
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Otherwise, the tutors are very useful to fetch for cavern of souls and kessig wolf run (depending on the board state), both of them letting me applying pressure without worrying about counters.
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[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
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is it really that hard to recast prossh, though? prossh decks have copious ways to make sick amounts of mana, since casting and re-casting prossh is essential to the gameplan. Give it a try and see how it plays. They've been stars for me in my multiplayer version. sure, someone will swords prossh if they can, but he's coming right back the next turn, with even more kobolds in tow. my list does not really focus on doing things with tokens on the board (other than attempting to win the game asap), so with the staxxxy lists and whatnot I could see why you'd not want to include them. In a duel setting especially, and looking at your list, it doesnt look like too many cards benefit from tokens remaining on the board all that long (fleshbag marauder and skullclamp excepted). they make good chump blockers, though. hmm.
They've won several games for me. kobolds come practically for free, so I wouldnt be so hesitant to lose them, especially on a really good chance to end the game on the spot.
maybe try subbing in tainted and psychotic fury for mistcutter hydra and thrun? Those are great anti-blue beaters, but do they really get you there? those cards can win you the game via voltroning, but it doesnt seem like they get any support from the rest of your deck. it seems like in a 1v1 setting, if you're worried about blue, you'd be better off running a couple cards like pyroblast, mages' contest, boil, or curse of marit lage. If I'm up against a blue deck, I'd rather have one of those or one of the cheap one-shotters. if it gets countered, keep your tokens, no big deal. creature removal targeting prossh is a bigger worry, but instant removal is going to be a problem for food chain combo as well; it just seems like the ever-present threat of a well-timed removal instant shouldnt deter you from running, well...anything, really.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
I think you should play those cards in a 1v1 setting, then come back and let me know how they do ^.^ There are a ton of cards that are very viable in multiplayer that literally aren't playable in a competitive 1v1 setting, and truest me when I tell you that those 1 shot effects are not. The basic idea is that if a cute 1 shot effect is going to work, then you've already got the game in the bag, therefore there's not too much of a point to playing them in the first place. The problem is that against a control match, those cards are going to either A: get countered or B: get you 2 for 1'd. Sure, there might be 1 game in 10 that it gets you there, but I know for a fact that I would much rather see an uncounterable threat like Thrun or Mistcutter than a 1 shot that just burns my own resources just to see it get countered. I don't even play Xenagos in my list, and he's a repeatable effect that's also indestructible.
Again, test it out and see how it goes. Multiplayer advice really isn't viable here in 1v1 though. I appreciate that you're participating and I hope you continue to do so, but until you have some actual data and matches in a competitive 1v1 setting to back up these ideas I think you should save them for the multiplayer side I have literally thousands of matches under my belt with this deck and my Skullbriar list, and while I'm certainly not the end-all be-all expert on the format, I do know there are certain types of cards that just don't work. very few, if any 1 shot effects that aren't repeatable and/or use your own resources without replacing those resources are viable. Bottom line :/
The reason that I'm not playing the specific hate cards is that they're uselss in any non-U mathchup, of which there are many. I also don't have a discard effect to make them even a little bit useful. Things like Thrun and the Hydra are still insane even against non-U decks. they just get that much better against U.
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Ill be attending another 1v1 tourney at my LGS in one week... I'll try and report how I do. Hopefully we'll have a higher attendance than last month.
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Great! I'm going to attend a championship this weekend and I'm not 100% sure if Prossh is way to go. I played with it last tournament and it got me a 3rd place. List here.
I've been tweaking the list since then and it looks much better now. I'll post it when I get home cuz I'm at work atm. I really like the way you built your deck. And I do think is the right way to go.. My list has few creatures' but more than yours (12 to be exact but some might get cut).
I found too hard to rely on cards like Beastmaster Ascencion because due low creature count, my opponent most likely will have a spot removal and it would fail. Although, I'm still running Food Chain combo because I love combo XD. Don't you like it? I know the way the deck is built, if you get a wrath, ur probably losing but it works kinda the same way as Xenagos. They NEED the removal. How Xenagos has been working out for you? I never actually tried him into my deck.. The effect is great but its only target is Prossh. I found that Xenagos would also benefit Garruk, Primal -3 ability which can be great. Maybe I'd give him a shot since he would work with Food Chain same as Ogre Battledriver. And bring inevitability along with it.
I don't like Hit // Run too much. I know it's bonkers, I used to run it but most of times I found it wasn't enough. And due its single use as wincon, didn't think it would make the cut. I prefer 'repeatable' effects like Coat of Arms.
I found Dark Ritual to be extremely effective in this deck. Dropping Liliana or Arena on t1 is really insane. I know it's difficult to happen but there is the possibility. What's your thoughts about it? Just realized that you don't use Arena. Is it because you have more draw effects such as Ancient Craving, etc? And how they've been? They seem to work pretty well in your deck the way it is. They value cards like Exploration and Fastbond even more.
And what do you think about hate cards such as Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, Choke, Red Elemental Blast, etc? Is it really worth it to run any of those? I run Rakdos Charm with that purpose.. gy and artifact hate on the same card.
Sorry for my bad english and I thank you! I appreciate that you shared your list.
I don't see Food Chain in your list...? Food Chain is definitely the strongest combo piece in the deck. It gives you an instant win with any other combo piece (Purphoros, Skullclamp, Goblin Bombardment, etc.) and gives you tons of mana too abuse otherwise. In fact, Food Chain is kind of a main draw to playing the deck as otherwise Prossh doesn't have many advantages over MW.
I also think you can afford to play less sweepers, as this deck is actually pretty well equipped against aggro strats with a huge amount of chump blockers and a 5/5 dragon usually available by turn 4. The deck probably doesn't need more than Toxic Deluge, Damnation and Jund Charm. I really like Rakdos Return or Mind Shatter in these slots (especially with Food Chain). I also like to include more enchantment/artifact removal, as enchantments like Nevermore, Curse of Death's Hold, or Treachery are some of the most powerful against you. I especially like Nature's Claim and Seal of Primordium.
Those chump blockers you are talking about are the kobolds, right? Kobolds are supposed to be win conditions along with Coat of Arms-like spells. If you are chump blocking with them, you're probably behind.. I don't think that less sweepers would work out here. This deck seems really fragile against aggro decks if it doesn't sweep those swarms away.
Also Food Chain generates mana only for creatures..
Food Chain doesn't work *that* well with Skullclamp because the mana generated can only be used for creature spells.
Food Chain doesn't work at all with Skullclamp because 'Clamp needs the critters to die but FC doesn't "kill" them - it exiles them.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
If you get a wrath, you're doomed and a spot removal delays another turn. The delay is pretty annoying but it usually kills next turn if you go infinite. Most of aggro decks loses to a single wrath and they still play aggro. Don't you think it's worth to play Food Chain anyway?
I like Hit because it is also acts as a Diabolic Edict effect. Its flexible, so it will never be a dead card.
Dark Ritual is too inconsistent for ramp. I like to win fast but I also need to have enough gas to win the drawn-out games. My average goldfish is turn 5-6, but since the opponent is interacting sometimes it becomes an attrition war and I don't win until turn 20.
Besides Damnation, Toxic Deluge, and Jund Charm, I run two sweepers, but they both have Cycling so that they are never dead cards.
Torpor Orb is interesting, but shuts off my Purphoros kill and Primetime's ETB. Theres not any ETB creatures that I'm completely scared of.
Stranglehold is good, but slots are tight. Aven Mindcensor is better in that role, because 3 mana and flash makes a huge difference.
Choke is in consideration, but it is a dead card sometimes.
Red Elemental Blast is less effective than Choke.
Nature's Claim makes them gain 4 life; Xenagos is my only win kill that cares about Commander damage. I run Krosan Grip, Abrupt Decay, Beast Within, Putrefy, Maelstrom Pulse, 8 discard, and 4 tutors. Ive never had problems with hate-permanents.
I use the Kobolds as chump blockers first. When "the time is right" I'll switch to kill mode and then they become the win condition. Up until then, they're uncountetable fodder.
I took out Rakdos's Return because it was disappointing every time I cast it. I replaced it with Persecute, which does the trick at less mana. I might toy around with Mind Games also.
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam