There are about two 1v1 EDH tournaments a month in my area. Unfortunately, most of them use the mtgcommander banlist. Since I'm sick of playing Zur mirrors and don't have the duals/tutors for Scion Hermit Druid, I've decided to build an Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck to show the TOs how busted the mtgcommander banlist is for 1v1.
So, any advice? So far this deck seems extremely powerful and consistent, but has a lot of trouble playing catch-up if it ever falls behind. Extinction builds are tricky but not impossible. I've also lost to cheated-out Elesh Norn a couple times, but I don't see away to beat that.
Cards to consider:
Broodhatch Nantuko is good protection against pyroclasm and an incredible blocker.
Brindle Shoat is also wrath resiliant.
Invigorate and Mutagenic Growth are sweet tech against Volcanic Fallout.
I would also highly recommend playing all the turn 1 mana dorks in Edric.
Vengevine - fantastic with Survival
Cards I would cut:
Genesis: too slow, even with Survival
I also think Master of the Wild Hunt and Mystic Snake are also too slow.
Wickerbough: you have better ways to deal with problem enchantments or artifacts
Glen Elendra
You're trying to show how busted the mtgcommander banlist is compared to the french list, but using almost none of the really busted things that differentiate the formats. You've got edric and mana drain and ancient tomb...and unless I'm missing something, that's it.
Where's sol ring? Mana crypt? Strip mine + crucible? Winter orb?
I think I'd build this very differently from you. Edric doesn't have to be all-in aggro+counterspells. I'd aim for a vintage-y looking deck, with more unfair lines of play. Lots of mana rocks, including vault and monolith, natural order + terastodon, tezzeret to find orb/crucible/shackles/rocks, etc...
Look for Brian Weissman on youtube. He's been playing a lot of commander on MTGO lately and uploading+commentating his replays. In addition to the games he chooses to upload being pretty entertaining, his edric list is friggin' sweet.
You're trying to show how busted the mtgcommander banlist is compared to the french list, but using almost none of the really busted things that differentiate the formats. You've got edric and mana drain and ancient tomb...and unless I'm missing something, that's it.
Where's sol ring? Mana crypt? Strip mine + crucible? Winter orb?
I think I'd build this very differently from you. Edric doesn't have to be all-in aggro+counterspells. I'd aim for a vintage-y looking deck, with more unfair lines of play. Lots of mana rocks, including vault and monolith, natural order + terastodon, tezzeret to find orb/crucible/shackles/rocks, etc...
Look for Brian Weissman on youtube. He's been playing a lot of commander on MTGO lately and uploading+commentating his replays. In addition to the games he chooses to upload being pretty entertaining, his edric list is friggin' sweet.
This style of deck is almost assuredly less powerful than the traditional aggro + counterspells. It's infinitely less consistent, much more vulnerable to counterspells and not even more "unfair". Edric aggro with counterspells is the easiest lock there is: no opponent can fight their way through countermagic when you're outdrawing them 5:1.
...Unless of course, they can keep edric out of play. In which case you're playing a deck full of 'fair' creatures in a 40-life format full of busted cards that everyone except you is abusing.
And let's be honest...if the turn 2 zurs out there have access to necropotence, you aren't outdrawing them 5-1.
Watch the weissman videos...between mana dorks and value creatures, edric still threatens to draw 2+ extra cards per turn, which is still pretty much unbeatable. But unlike the above list, that's just one line of attack...it doesn't require force of will to avoid scooping to hinder/spell crumple (don't forget tucking is a thing in mtgcommander EDH). Being able to use edric to bait counters and removal makes him more powerful, not less, than depending on resolving and protecting him.
In my area players resist using french banlist(they think it is just a different type of unfairness) and play only mtgcommander list, and I play Zur there for a long time. Edric can win Zur only when having a godly starting hand.
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...Unless of course, they can keep edric out of play. In which case you're playing a deck full of 'fair' creatures in a 40-life format full of busted cards that everyone except you is abusing.
And let's be honest...if the turn 2 zurs out there have access to necropotence, you aren't outdrawing them 5-1.
Watch the weissman videos...between mana dorks and value creatures, edric still threatens to draw 2+ extra cards per turn, which is still pretty much unbeatable. But unlike the above list, that's just one line of attack...it doesn't require force of will to avoid scooping to hinder/spell crumple (don't forget tucking is a thing in mtgcommander EDH). Being able to use edric to bait counters and removal makes him more powerful, not less, than depending on resolving and protecting him.
Except the Flying Men version was totally busted....so busted it got banned in French after dominating the scene. The life isn't the killer, the tremendous advantage from drawing 4-5 extra cards in the first 5 turns is. Punish your opponents with counterspells, get a ton of gas, chain into one or two time walks. It's supremely powerful, the goodstuff version was powerful, but what Fluxuate is suggesting is dominant.
We're not talking about what is/was good under french rules. When Edric was banned in duel commander, he didn't have to contend with tucking, or sol ring starts, or combo with the full array of tutors and mana rocks.
If I'm playing zur, and I open with mana crypt+signet, and continuously save counter mana for edric himself....what draw could your list possibly have that beats that? Saying "well you can't keep up with 5+ cards a turn" is meaningless. You'll never get a chance to draw off edric against a control deck with that degree of mana advantage.
I'm not saying that edric is a bad choice, or even that this deck is bad.. just that it could be better. Sol ring is going to do more for you than vapor snag, for example. Strip mine is a no-brainer. This is probably the best home possible for winter orb. And so on. Why let other people have all the degenerate cards?
No one's saying you shouldn't add all the good mana cards, just that the format of the deck should be on maximizing your draws and countermagic and chaining into a few Time Walks. Your deck is clearly not designed to do this, instead it's far more midrangy against a format you think is stronger...which makes less sense.
And praytell, why is the set-up just not good for Flying Men that was good under French? Same if not more countermagic and you're going to draw off Edric oodles faster. I mean what are you doing or keeping against these supposedly broken multiplayer decks that you're going to lose anyway. If you want to be broken, then play a deck that's already shown to be broken.
Easy there....you're making a lot of incorrect assumptions and being pretty sarcastic attacking those assumptions. Maybe you should re-read my posts for their actual content?
I never suggested the deck be more midrangy...I said more vintage-y. If you associate vintage with mid-range decks then I don't know what to tell you...
I never said anything about multiplayer. This is a 1v1 forum last I checked?
I never said edric was bad, just that it's probably wise not to go all-in on him, especially when there are some other stupidly fast+powerful other avenues to victory available to him.
Funny to see you criticising what my 'deck is clearly not designed to do' since I never posted or even built one. I'm just making some suggestions that I think will improve the OP's list. Maybe I came across overly critical, in which case: my bad. But looking back I haven't seen you disagree with a single one of the actual suggestions I made. So maybe you're being a little overly sensitive at me suggesting there's room to improve on a french edric list beyond just adding mana drain?.
Vintage-y means? The OP's list is clearly midrange, so the suggestion was to move towards a faster swarm variant...but you think it's not a good idea...so either you think midrange is the way to go...or you don't have a suggestion at all? It's kind of confusing actually.
You said to use value creatures, which is what the OP is doing anyway, but you're also saying it's not like the above list.
The main point of contention is that the formats are so different, that you think using an extremely powerful plan in one format is clearly nowhere good enough for this one. But you don't really have any reasons why, or suggestions beyond, "Vintag-y." It doesn't really make any sense.
Hm well I said the originally posted decklist was slow and underpowered. I'll agree that going for a faster swarm gameplan would be an improvement, I think we're on the same page there. But I'll go a step further and admit that you're right, I don't think that's the absolute best approach.
In French EDH, it's pretty awesome to curve out 1-drop, 2-drop, edric (depending on opponent). After all, what is your opponent likely to do with his first 3 turns that's more powerful than that?
Under MTGCommander rules, the range of what can happen in those first few turns is wider - much wider. What's the most broken thing you can do with 6 mana? Ad nausem with mana floating? High tide + time spiral? Doomsday? Infinite mana combo into stroke of genius? I don't even know, honestly, but whatever it is surely beats an aggro opening. Typically, edric wins against those things under french rules because by the time they happen, the edric player has already seized a strong board position and is keeping up countermagic. However the availability crypt/vault/ring/monolith/tomb have a way of warping not only early board development, but deckbuilding. If you have access to multiple broken mana rocks like those, there's a lot more incentive to go deep, and play the full array of moxes (chrome/diamond/opal) and build a gameplan around abusing fast mana. Turns 1-3 are not the safe haven for development that you're used to having in french EDH - many powerful plays that fell safely into "slow enough not to be a concern for edric" under french rules can now happen as early as turn 1. Tapping out for brindle shoat on turn 2 can cost you the game. Some of the opposing decks will mandate keeping up countermagic as soon as it's online, allowing little to no time to play early beaters.
Edric is supremely good at crushing fair decks, and French rules do a decent job of keeping things fair. MTG commander rules however, don't do quite as good a job.
I don't pretend to know what's the best way to build edric for this format, I'm just speculating here, as we all are. I noted in my original reply that I saw Weissman's build on youtube and think it's pretty sweet. It does a good job of utilizing both edric and the fast mana in the format, so I that's probably a good place to start. May not be optimal, but at least it's tuned for the right format.
I would definitely go with the Time Warp effects as you really want a way to close the game against the extra life of the format.
I'm not sure about this - I always thought that Time Warp effects were overkill in Edric, since they were only good if I have Edric + dorks on the field, at which time I'm already winning. Though, a flying man build with more 1 mana evasion dorks might warrant time warps - I will test this when I have time.
Cards to consider:
Broodhatch Nantuko is good protection against pyroclasm and an incredible blocker.
Brindle Shoat is also wrath resiliant.
Invigorate and Mutagenic Growth are sweet tech against Volcanic Fallout.
I would also highly recommend playing all the turn 1 mana dorks in Edric.
Vengevine - fantastic with Survival
Cards I would cut:
Genesis: too slow, even with Survival
I also think Master of the Wild Hunt and Mystic Snake are also too slow.
Wickerbough: you have better ways to deal with problem enchantments or artifacts
Glen Elendra
I agree with most of this - Genesis, Master of the Wild Hunt, and the other 4 drops are too slow, and Vengevine is fantastic. However, I don't like Brindle Shoat, which is basically a Young Wolf you pay one mana more on for a +1/+1 when it comes back, and feels inferior to Strangleroot Geist. I will test it, though.
Hm well I said the originally posted decklist was slow and underpowered. I'll agree that going for a faster swarm gameplan would be an improvement, I think we're on the same page there. But I'll go a step further and admit that you're right, I don't think that's the absolute best approach.
I don't pretend to know what's the best way to build edric for this format, I'm just speculating here, as we all are. I noted in my original reply that I saw Weissman's build on youtube and think it's pretty sweet. It does a good job of utilizing both edric and the fast mana in the format, so I that's probably a good place to start. May not be optimal, but at least it's tuned for the right format.
I've watched the Weissman videos, and it seems as if he plays mainly against lists that aren't completely competitive (A damia build playing Thada Adel or RB aggro in a 40 life format, for example). While his build is interesting, most of the games won by Tezzeret/Winter Orb/Crucible could've been won anyways if that card had been another creature or another bounce/counterspell. Those cards are often slow and situational. So I think that those cards aren't really necessary. You're right though, the deck as is can be rather slow at times, and I'm looking to fix that.
This is the current list i run. It emphasizes on getting edric out quick and just taking control of the game by swinging with little 1/1s. Note: the deck is incredibly fast paced. Trying to find room for Mental Mistep
There are about two 1v1 EDH tournaments a month in my area. Unfortunately, most of them use the mtgcommander banlist. Since I'm sick of playing Zur mirrors and don't have the duals/tutors for Scion Hermit Druid, I've decided to build an Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck to show the TOs how busted the mtgcommander banlist is for 1v1.
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Flooded Grove
1 Flooded Strand
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Treetop Village
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Yavimaya Coast
6 Forest
7 Island
Creatures: 31
1 Cursecatcher
1 Boreal Druid
1 Brindle Shoat
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Gilded Drake
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Mystic Snake
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Plaxmanta
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Spiketail Hatchling
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Tarmogoyf
1 True-name Nemesis
1 Trygon Predator
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts: 4
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Aether Vial
1 Chrome Mox
1 Vedalken Shackles
Enchantments: 2
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
Instants: 23
1 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Daze
1 Force Spike
1 Force of Will
1 Into the Roil
1 Mana Drain
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Mental Misstep
1 Miscalculation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Negate
1 Psionic Blast
1 Remand
1 Repulse
1 Rushing River
1 Snap
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Vapor Snag
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
Right now, I'm also considering the following cards as potential additions:
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Man-o'-War
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Riftwing Cloudskate
1 Pongify
1 Rapid Hybridization
So, any advice? So far this deck seems extremely powerful and consistent, but has a lot of trouble playing catch-up if it ever falls behind. Extinction builds are tricky but not impossible. I've also lost to cheated-out Elesh Norn a couple times, but I don't see away to beat that.
Unless you just want to win. Then take this against all the multiplayer ports and laugh.
EDIT:
You're way ahead of me.
Related to the decklist, you're missing Cold-Eyed Selkie IMO. Drawing even MORE cards is never bad Otherwise looks good.
Hopefully your performance lets them look into using the French banlist for further 1v1 events.
Cards to consider:
Broodhatch Nantuko is good protection against pyroclasm and an incredible blocker.
Brindle Shoat is also wrath resiliant.
Invigorate and Mutagenic Growth are sweet tech against Volcanic Fallout.
I would also highly recommend playing all the turn 1 mana dorks in Edric.
Vengevine - fantastic with Survival
Cards I would cut:
Genesis: too slow, even with Survival
I also think Master of the Wild Hunt and Mystic Snake are also too slow.
Wickerbough: you have better ways to deal with problem enchantments or artifacts
Glen Elendra
You're trying to show how busted the mtgcommander banlist is compared to the french list, but using almost none of the really busted things that differentiate the formats. You've got edric and mana drain and ancient tomb...and unless I'm missing something, that's it.
Where's sol ring? Mana crypt? Strip mine + crucible? Winter orb?
I think I'd build this very differently from you. Edric doesn't have to be all-in aggro+counterspells. I'd aim for a vintage-y looking deck, with more unfair lines of play. Lots of mana rocks, including vault and monolith, natural order + terastodon, tezzeret to find orb/crucible/shackles/rocks, etc...
Look for Brian Weissman on youtube. He's been playing a lot of commander on MTGO lately and uploading+commentating his replays. In addition to the games he chooses to upload being pretty entertaining, his edric list is friggin' sweet.
This style of deck is almost assuredly less powerful than the traditional aggro + counterspells. It's infinitely less consistent, much more vulnerable to counterspells and not even more "unfair". Edric aggro with counterspells is the easiest lock there is: no opponent can fight their way through countermagic when you're outdrawing them 5:1.
And let's be honest...if the turn 2 zurs out there have access to necropotence, you aren't outdrawing them 5-1.
Watch the weissman videos...between mana dorks and value creatures, edric still threatens to draw 2+ extra cards per turn, which is still pretty much unbeatable. But unlike the above list, that's just one line of attack...it doesn't require force of will to avoid scooping to hinder/spell crumple (don't forget tucking is a thing in mtgcommander EDH). Being able to use edric to bait counters and removal makes him more powerful, not less, than depending on resolving and protecting him.
I do not sign 5yr+ old cards. Please do not pm me for this.
Except the Flying Men version was totally busted....so busted it got banned in French after dominating the scene. The life isn't the killer, the tremendous advantage from drawing 4-5 extra cards in the first 5 turns is. Punish your opponents with counterspells, get a ton of gas, chain into one or two time walks. It's supremely powerful, the goodstuff version was powerful, but what Fluxuate is suggesting is dominant.
If I'm playing zur, and I open with mana crypt+signet, and continuously save counter mana for edric himself....what draw could your list possibly have that beats that? Saying "well you can't keep up with 5+ cards a turn" is meaningless. You'll never get a chance to draw off edric against a control deck with that degree of mana advantage.
I'm not saying that edric is a bad choice, or even that this deck is bad.. just that it could be better. Sol ring is going to do more for you than vapor snag, for example. Strip mine is a no-brainer. This is probably the best home possible for winter orb. And so on. Why let other people have all the degenerate cards?
And praytell, why is the set-up just not good for Flying Men that was good under French? Same if not more countermagic and you're going to draw off Edric oodles faster. I mean what are you doing or keeping against these supposedly broken multiplayer decks that you're going to lose anyway. If you want to be broken, then play a deck that's already shown to be broken.
I never suggested the deck be more midrangy...I said more vintage-y. If you associate vintage with mid-range decks then I don't know what to tell you...
I never said anything about multiplayer. This is a 1v1 forum last I checked?
I never said edric was bad, just that it's probably wise not to go all-in on him, especially when there are some other stupidly fast+powerful other avenues to victory available to him.
Funny to see you criticising what my 'deck is clearly not designed to do' since I never posted or even built one. I'm just making some suggestions that I think will improve the OP's list. Maybe I came across overly critical, in which case: my bad. But looking back I haven't seen you disagree with a single one of the actual suggestions I made. So maybe you're being a little overly sensitive at me suggesting there's room to improve on a french edric list beyond just adding mana drain?.
You said to use value creatures, which is what the OP is doing anyway, but you're also saying it's not like the above list.
The main point of contention is that the formats are so different, that you think using an extremely powerful plan in one format is clearly nowhere good enough for this one. But you don't really have any reasons why, or suggestions beyond, "Vintag-y." It doesn't really make any sense.
In French EDH, it's pretty awesome to curve out 1-drop, 2-drop, edric (depending on opponent). After all, what is your opponent likely to do with his first 3 turns that's more powerful than that?
Under MTGCommander rules, the range of what can happen in those first few turns is wider - much wider. What's the most broken thing you can do with 6 mana? Ad nausem with mana floating? High tide + time spiral? Doomsday? Infinite mana combo into stroke of genius? I don't even know, honestly, but whatever it is surely beats an aggro opening. Typically, edric wins against those things under french rules because by the time they happen, the edric player has already seized a strong board position and is keeping up countermagic. However the availability crypt/vault/ring/monolith/tomb have a way of warping not only early board development, but deckbuilding. If you have access to multiple broken mana rocks like those, there's a lot more incentive to go deep, and play the full array of moxes (chrome/diamond/opal) and build a gameplan around abusing fast mana. Turns 1-3 are not the safe haven for development that you're used to having in french EDH - many powerful plays that fell safely into "slow enough not to be a concern for edric" under french rules can now happen as early as turn 1. Tapping out for brindle shoat on turn 2 can cost you the game. Some of the opposing decks will mandate keeping up countermagic as soon as it's online, allowing little to no time to play early beaters.
Edric is supremely good at crushing fair decks, and French rules do a decent job of keeping things fair. MTG commander rules however, don't do quite as good a job.
I don't pretend to know what's the best way to build edric for this format, I'm just speculating here, as we all are. I noted in my original reply that I saw Weissman's build on youtube and think it's pretty sweet. It does a good job of utilizing both edric and the fast mana in the format, so I that's probably a good place to start. May not be optimal, but at least it's tuned for the right format.
I'm not sure about this - I always thought that Time Warp effects were overkill in Edric, since they were only good if I have Edric + dorks on the field, at which time I'm already winning. Though, a flying man build with more 1 mana evasion dorks might warrant time warps - I will test this when I have time.
I agree with most of this - Genesis, Master of the Wild Hunt, and the other 4 drops are too slow, and Vengevine is fantastic. However, I don't like Brindle Shoat, which is basically a Young Wolf you pay one mana more on for a +1/+1 when it comes back, and feels inferior to Strangleroot Geist. I will test it, though.
I've watched the Weissman videos, and it seems as if he plays mainly against lists that aren't completely competitive (A damia build playing Thada Adel or RB aggro in a 40 life format, for example). While his build is interesting, most of the games won by Tezzeret/Winter Orb/Crucible could've been won anyways if that card had been another creature or another bounce/counterspell. Those cards are often slow and situational. So I think that those cards aren't really necessary. You're right though, the deck as is can be rather slow at times, and I'm looking to fix that.
So, changes:
- Mystic Tutor - It feels too slow, but I'll keep notice of it for now.
- Genesis
- Master of the Wild Hunt
- Glen Elendra Archmage
- Tectonic Edge (Strip mine is a strict upgrade)
+ Boreal Druid
+ Vengevine
+ Elvish Mystic
+ Brindle Shoat (As a test)
+ Psionic Blast (Left this out originally)
+ Strip Mine
Not sure about Skullclamp or the swarm strategy. Will test later, when I'm a little less busy.
1 Zodiac Rabbit
1 Arbor Elf
1 Cloud Pirates
1 Cloud Sprite
1 Cloudfin Raptor
1 Cursecatcher
1 Elvish Pioneer
1 Flying Men
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Grayscaled Gharial
1 Jace's Phantasm
1 Jukai Messenger
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Martyr of Frost
1 Marsh Boa
1 Merfolk Spy
1 Mothdust Changeling
1 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Scryb Sprites
1 Shanodin Dryads
1 Skyshroud Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Treetop Scout
1 Willow Dryad
1 Wingcrafter
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Zephyr Sprite
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Priest of Titania
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Spiketail Hatchling
1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
1 Exploration
1 Veil of Birds
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Daze
1 Delay
1 Mana Drain
1 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Snap
1 Unified Will
1 Force of Will
1 Submerge
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Winter Orb
1 Tangle Wire
1 Notorious Throng
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Time Warp
1 Breeding Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Flooded Grove
1 Flooded Strand
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Thran Quarry
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Yavimaya Coast
3 Forest
10 Island
1 Capture of Jingzhou