so i have my evasive maneuvers ordered and i'm wondering what cards to switch out. i see you took out oblation for unexpectedly absent. i'm thinking of cutting baneslayer angel for angel of finality. i can't think of when i had options in my hand of cheating in when i chose baneslayer over anyone else. about the only thing i've had a use for is the life gain but this kaalia is so quick that that is usually a non-issue.
i'm also not having the best of luck with chaos warp. it could just be rotten luck, but it seems every time i cast it my opponent gets a card just as good if not better than what i targeted. i almost want to cut it and keep oblation.
I don't think I would ever cut Baneslayer. I like efficiently costed threats and she has always been a star for me. She's the threat I want you to remove to make my Gisela or Hellkite Tyrant safe.
As for Warp vs Oblat. I generally prefer Warp (and I have an awesome Arsenal foil Warp) because I can Warp a late game Diamond into a Threat, if needed.
Baneslayer's protections are super relevant too. I feel like for Angel of Finality you want to remove either an underperforming piece of removal or one of your really expensive fatties that doesn't immediately win the game (like how Gisela does).
i kind of see what you mean regarding the baneslayer, but i'm still at a loss of what to cut for the new angel. it may be for the time being that i put her in instead of liliana since i can't afford the $40 for an actual card and keep baneslayer.
also, speaking of hellkite tyrant, i have a renewed love for him since playing against Arcum Dagsson the other night. read the card to see what he was all about, figured it was a deck made up of artifacts, tutored for the tyrant and proceeded to own the entire board. i almost felt bad.
i kind of see what you mean regarding the baneslayer, but i'm still at a loss of what to cut for the new angel. it may be for the time being that i put her in instead of liliana since i can't afford the $40 for an actual card and keep baneslayer.
also, speaking of hellkite tyrant, i have a renewed love for him since playing against Arcum Dagsson the other night. read the card to see what he was all about, figured it was a deck made up of artifacts, tutored for the tyrant and proceeded to own the entire board. i almost felt bad.
almost.
Hahahahaha! The Hellkite is awesome.I don't find myself specifically tutouring for him often (I find that the one shot Master is better, or the Rakdos Annihilate X to be superior) but the times where Hellkite is good, man he is just an all-star.
I wonder if someday they will give us an Angel that does that with enchantments. Or...maybe a Demon that does that with lands (hey, Gilt-Leaf Archdruid was printed under modern design philosophies, this could happen too >_>).
The ideal rocks I would play in this deck are the Jeweled Amulet, three signets and then (if you have the optimal best lands Abu duals, Shocks, requisite fetches filters, etc) Charcoal Diamond, Coldsteel Heart, and Fellwar Stone. If you don't have the requisite best best lands, then replace Coldsteel and Fellwar with Marble Diamond and Fire Diamond. This philosophy also applies to playing Necropotence versus Phyrexian Arena - without the absolute best lands, do not try to play Necro here.
I could go into more detail but...ell, you said you read the Primer, so any other information to know about the mana should be in the thread. Or of course any other questions feel free to ask and I'll be here to answer them! Thanks again for your questions!
For fellwar stone it would seem that its more important that your opponent be playing with really good lands vs. you playing good lands. In this vein why not Exotic Orchard
For fellwar stone it would seem that its more important that your opponent be playing with really good lands vs. you playing good lands. In this vein why not Exotic Orchard
Thanks for the awesome guide!
Great point.
The reason I specify Fellwar if you have the best lands is because you're much more likely to have your colours, so you can afford to take the off-chance that Fellwar whiffs on colours more. Without the best lands, it's more important to make your rocks consistently supply the colours you need.
Exotic Orchard is another beat entirely. But the way it works out, all the duals I have are all better than Orchard and/or more consistent than it.
Why would you cut coldsteel heart for a strictly-worse rock like marble/fire diamond?
Haha, it's kind of embarrassing, really. It's an OCD thing. I see two Diamonds and a Coldsteel and it's like, I should be playing this too so I can have the whole set. Even though yes, Fire Diamond is largely inferior to Coldsteel Heart in every way.
Haha, it's kind of embarrassing, really. It's an OCD thing. I see two Diamonds and a Coldsteel and it's like, I should be playing this too so I can have the whole set. Even though yes, Fire Diamond is largely inferior to Coldsteel Heart in every way.
I think that's because Red is not a strong part of a "typical" Kaalia deck currently. As soon as Wizards prints more juicy red cards, it may justify keeping Fire Diamond. Otherwise, we would just wait until they print 3 Coldsteel Heart clones, and use those and drop the diamonds for the most part.
I think that's because Red is not a strong part of a "typical" Kaalia deck currently. As soon as Wizards prints more juicy red cards, it may justify keeping Fire Diamond. Otherwise, we would just wait until they print 3 Coldsteel Heart clones, and use those and drop the diamonds for the most part.
They have been printing more mana rocks (examples would be Selesnya Cluestone and Selesnya Keyrune). However, I believe they are 3 CMC due to having a 2nd ability. Not sure if we will see any 2 CMC mana rocks that enter tapped.
They have been printing more mana rocks (examples would be Selesnya Cluestone and Selesnya Keyrune). However, I believe they are 3 CMC due to having a 2nd ability. Not sure if we will see any 2 CMC mana rocks that enter tapped.
There was a post on MaRo's blog that essentially said that development feels that 2 CMC mana rocks (even ones that enter tapped) are too strong for Standard.
There was a post on MaRo's blog that essentially said that development feels that 2 CMC mana rocks (even ones that enter tapped) are too strong for Standard.
Yep. That's exactly right. Two drop EBT rocks are too good...so we get chaff like Cluestones (whom aren't terrible in and of themselves, but aren't what we want here at all).
Which means I will never see my enemy-coloured Talismans. X_x
Or even a print of Fellwar Stone outside of Cmdr/Duel Deck/Special Set.
Or even a print of Fellwar Stone outside of Cmdr/Duel Deck/Special Set.
There is also nothing preventing Wizards from printing new 2 CMC mana rocks solely for Commander/Legacy/Vintage. I don't recall mana rocks getting much use in Legacy competitive decks, so a printing of "new" 2 CMC mana rocks for Commander is possible. That's all we need, since we are all Commander players here.
There is also nothing preventing Wizards from printing new 2 CMC mana rocks solely for Commander/Legacy/Vintage. I don't recall mana rocks getting much use in Legacy competitive decks, so a printing of "new" 2 CMC mana rocks for Commander is possible. That's all we need, since we are all Commander players here.
Hmm...I guess it could have happened in Cmdr 2013. But it didn't - so I can only assume that if it didn't happen in such a controlled environment, it won't happen (which is fair, Talismans are pretty high on the power level).
Hmm...I guess it could have happened in Cmdr 2013. But it didn't - so I can only assume that if it didn't happen in such a controlled environment, it won't happen (which is fair, Talismans are pretty high on the power level).
Just because it didn't happen in Commander 2013 doesn't mean it can't happen. Wizards has not said anything to completely shut this option down completely from the Commander format. Of course, it might take a while.
Not having the other colored Talismans bothers me a lot from a "Vorthos" perspective. I dislike asymmetric design like this. Since it took Wizards a long time to print enemy-fetchlands and the rest of the enemy Swords, I would say the possibility of the rest of the Talismans or 2 CMC rocks is still alive.
Alright. So big news (kind of). After finally obtaining a decently costed Thoughtseize (thanks Wizards for taking down the Premiere and Daily Events, getting players to flood the market with cards as they try to dump their accounts!) I have constructed one more Kaalia decklist, of course for 1v1, that I dub "Kaalia of Heavy Disruption". I have been working on this for a few months now, but with my 'Seize I finally feel like I can post it here, as I am especially proud of how it has been handling itself.
And soon enough, whenever the price of Hero's Downfall gets to a reasonable level on Magic Online (here's hoping), it will replace Go for the Throat. Since Comm2013 isn't out until December on the client, I haven't slotted those other two cards in yet - but Unexpectedly Absent can likely replace Orzhov Charm, while Angel of Finality will likely...be a meta choice, if you see lots of graveyard decks (for me anyway, because I am already main decking Rakdos Charm, but I realize I put more priority to this card than most people following this thread).
Have there been any good lifelink cards besides Archangel of Thune and Baneslayer Angel that can help offset the heavy self inflicted life loss we experience? I primarily play 4-5 player games now and it can really beat me down and put me at a huge disadvantage early on. I would really hate to cut cards like Reanimate and Orzhov Charm, but between those two, all my pain lands, fetches, shocks, and arena effects, it gets overwhelming at times X_X
Have there been any good lifelink cards besides Archangel of Thune and Baneslayer Angel that can help offset the heavy self inflicted life loss we experience? I primarily play 4-5 player games now and it can really beat me down and put me at a huge disadvantage early on. I would really hate to cut cards like Reanimate and Orzhov Charm, but between those two, all my pain lands, fetches, shocks, and arena effects, it gets overwhelming at times X_X
Vault of the Archangel is pretty strong. And I don't play the Painlands because of that, actually (the Caves of Koilos in the post above yours is because I don't own a Fetid Heath online. It's...similar enough until I get the filter).
If O-Charm is too painful, replace it with Oblation or Go for the Throat. If you must cut Reanimate, then fill it in with Beacon of Unrest or Unburial Rites - yes I understand these raise the average curve, but you aren't going to find better costed reanimation than that, so...........
Additionally those huge games are never friendly to Kaalia anyway. They see you and dogpile you out of existence because they're afraid of the unknown.
I second this land. I had my doubts of it originally, but it's definitely a useful card in a Kaalia deck. I finally had a few games where the land became available, and with 2-3 creatures, the life gain starts to build up. In one game, this land saved me from dying to my own Phyrexian Arena, because I had been attacked a few times. Once I board wiped and my other three opponents didn't have anything they could use against me, I went from 8 life to 50 life in a few turns, defeating one player in the process.
Hi 3Drinks! What do you think about Toxic Deluge? My meta has a lot of hexproof dudes like Sigarda and Uril and I need some expertise and advice about if this card is good enough or not.
Hi 3Drinks! What do you think about Toxic Deluge? My meta has a lot of hexproof dudes like Sigarda and Uril and I need some expertise and advice about if this card is good enough or not.
Hmm. This card is very, very good. But yet another thing very high on the life cost (and expensive to get since you can only find it in the Oloro deck...while it's also going to be a chase Legacy card I'm almost positive).
But this also kills our Kaalia in like every application. I'd think Fire Covenant is better since we can point it as needed, and is an instant. I understand it doesn't help with Hexproof crap, but there really isn't anything we can do about that anyway - maybe let them extend into a well-placed Hallowed Burial? For Uril you could try replacing some of our removal suite with cards such as Devour Flesh and Diabolic Edict.
For Toxic Deluge, I would play it in some kind of control deck that can protect itself well - the aforementioned Oloro deck is a great place for such a powerful, cheap sweeper - and it can be found by t2 Mystical Tutor into t3 kill your board trololol.
As you know 3drinks, I run a similar list, few changes due to land base and $. Played a few games vs Maelstrom Wanderer a few times the new Bant Commander Derevi, Empyrial Tactician.
Firstly against MW, I love me some land destruction. Early turns - mana rocks and hand disruption (*kisses* Thoughtseize). Turn 4 Armageddon after 2 mana rocks and a top. Kaalia next turn and GG
Now this bant... 22 counter spells, a whole lot of bounce. Basically, my game plan was to find pieces to get her out safetly and protect her on the field. In the end, it was the massive card draw via Skeletal Scrying, necro, etc with uncounterable hand disruption (thank you mind twist for 7 that allowed me to hardcast my important stuff/creatures (Kaalia was countered once via FoW and the 2nd time was an EoT bounce - vapor snag)
Yea, I hate those kinds of decks. Just counter, counter, counter because they think this is "fun" to their opponent as it is to them. Best thing I can suggest there is the hand disruption as you alluded to, and then cards like Grand Abolisher and Defense Grid.
I actually had a game against a Bant commander with that heavy disruption list up there. I stuck a t3 Liliana with an REB to back her up. He D-Spheres her and I REB it to get her back to three loyalty then next turn he plays Humility into my Mind Twist. I don't know, I just thought it was funny that he scoops when he has Humility (yea Lili was at five so I was gonna ult her to split lands and the enchantment but still. I was sitting with Rakdos and Master in my hand too). Lol.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
i'm also not having the best of luck with chaos warp. it could just be rotten luck, but it seems every time i cast it my opponent gets a card just as good if not better than what i targeted. i almost want to cut it and keep oblation.
As for Warp vs Oblat. I generally prefer Warp (and I have an awesome Arsenal foil Warp) because I can Warp a late game Diamond into a Threat, if needed.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
also, speaking of hellkite tyrant, i have a renewed love for him since playing against Arcum Dagsson the other night. read the card to see what he was all about, figured it was a deck made up of artifacts, tutored for the tyrant and proceeded to own the entire board. i almost felt bad.
almost.
Hahahahaha! The Hellkite is awesome.I don't find myself specifically tutouring for him often (I find that the one shot Master is better, or the Rakdos Annihilate X to be superior) but the times where Hellkite is good, man he is just an all-star.
I wonder if someday they will give us an Angel that does that with enchantments. Or...maybe a Demon that does that with lands (hey, Gilt-Leaf Archdruid was printed under modern design philosophies, this could happen too >_>).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
For fellwar stone it would seem that its more important that your opponent be playing with really good lands vs. you playing good lands. In this vein why not Exotic Orchard
Thanks for the awesome guide!
Great point.
The reason I specify Fellwar if you have the best lands is because you're much more likely to have your colours, so you can afford to take the off-chance that Fellwar whiffs on colours more. Without the best lands, it's more important to make your rocks consistently supply the colours you need.
Exotic Orchard is another beat entirely. But the way it works out, all the duals I have are all better than Orchard and/or more consistent than it.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Haha, it's kind of embarrassing, really. It's an OCD thing. I see two Diamonds and a Coldsteel and it's like, I should be playing this too so I can have the whole set. Even though yes, Fire Diamond is largely inferior to Coldsteel Heart in every way.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I think that's because Red is not a strong part of a "typical" Kaalia deck currently. As soon as Wizards prints more juicy red cards, it may justify keeping Fire Diamond. Otherwise, we would just wait until they print 3 Coldsteel Heart clones, and use those and drop the diamonds for the most part.
They have been printing more mana rocks (examples would be Selesnya Cluestone and Selesnya Keyrune). However, I believe they are 3 CMC due to having a 2nd ability. Not sure if we will see any 2 CMC mana rocks that enter tapped.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
There was a post on MaRo's blog that essentially said that development feels that 2 CMC mana rocks (even ones that enter tapped) are too strong for Standard.
Yep. That's exactly right. Two drop EBT rocks are too good...so we get chaff like Cluestones (whom aren't terrible in and of themselves, but aren't what we want here at all).
Which means I will never see my enemy-coloured Talismans. X_x
Or even a print of Fellwar Stone outside of Cmdr/Duel Deck/Special Set.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
There is also nothing preventing Wizards from printing new 2 CMC mana rocks solely for Commander/Legacy/Vintage. I don't recall mana rocks getting much use in Legacy competitive decks, so a printing of "new" 2 CMC mana rocks for Commander is possible. That's all we need, since we are all Commander players here.
Hmm...I guess it could have happened in Cmdr 2013. But it didn't - so I can only assume that if it didn't happen in such a controlled environment, it won't happen (which is fair, Talismans are pretty high on the power level).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Just because it didn't happen in Commander 2013 doesn't mean it can't happen. Wizards has not said anything to completely shut this option down completely from the Commander format. Of course, it might take a while.
Not having the other colored Talismans bothers me a lot from a "Vorthos" perspective. I dislike asymmetric design like this. Since it took Wizards a long time to print enemy-fetchlands and the rest of the enemy Swords, I would say the possibility of the rest of the Talismans or 2 CMC rocks is still alive.
1 Kaalia of the Vast
Creatures
1 Mother of Runes
1 Dark Confidant
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Blinding Angel
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Master of Cruelties
1 Rakdos the Defiler
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Artifacts
1 Jeweled Amulet
1 Sol Ring
1 Boros Signet
1 Charcoal Diamond
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Defense Grid
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Enchantments
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Moat
Sorceries
1 Duress
1 Imperial Seal
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Night's Whisper
1 Sinkhole
1 Grim Tutor
1 Read the Bones
1 Vindicate
1 Wear/Tear
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Hallowed Burial
Instants
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Path to Exile
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tithe
1 Boros Charm
1 Go for the Throat
1 Orzhov Charm
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Terminate
1 Chaos Warp
1 Dismember
1 Skeletal Scrying
Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ajani Vengeant
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Caves of Koilos
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Graven Cairns
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Homeward Path
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plateau
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
It's also worth noting it is capable of a Duel-Commander conversion without losing much of it's functionality - cut the following cards:
Strip Mine - Wasteland (or if you're poor like me, Tectonic Edge)
Sol Ring - Sire of Insanity
Mind Twist - Castigate
Imperial Seal - Hellkite Tyrant (meta choice) or Thundermaw Hellkite (generalized or unknown meta choice)
Necropotence - Angel of Despair or Disciple of Bolas
And soon enough, whenever the price of Hero's Downfall gets to a reasonable level on Magic Online (here's hoping), it will replace Go for the Throat. Since Comm2013 isn't out until December on the client, I haven't slotted those other two cards in yet - but Unexpectedly Absent can likely replace Orzhov Charm, while Angel of Finality will likely...be a meta choice, if you see lots of graveyard decks (for me anyway, because I am already main decking Rakdos Charm, but I realize I put more priority to this card than most people following this thread).
EDIT: Added a picture at the bottom.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Kaalia of the Vast - I Got A Halo Round Me WBR
Thraximundar - Hack & Sac UBR
Stonebrow, Krosan Hero - Stone Brow Steve Austin RG
Vault of the Archangel is pretty strong. And I don't play the Painlands because of that, actually (the Caves of Koilos in the post above yours is because I don't own a Fetid Heath online. It's...similar enough until I get the filter).
If O-Charm is too painful, replace it with Oblation or Go for the Throat. If you must cut Reanimate, then fill it in with Beacon of Unrest or Unburial Rites - yes I understand these raise the average curve, but you aren't going to find better costed reanimation than that, so...........
Additionally those huge games are never friendly to Kaalia anyway. They see you and dogpile you out of existence because they're afraid of the unknown.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I second this land. I had my doubts of it originally, but it's definitely a useful card in a Kaalia deck. I finally had a few games where the land became available, and with 2-3 creatures, the life gain starts to build up. In one game, this land saved me from dying to my own Phyrexian Arena, because I had been attacked a few times. Once I board wiped and my other three opponents didn't have anything they could use against me, I went from 8 life to 50 life in a few turns, defeating one player in the process.
Toxic Deluge.
Hmm. This card is very, very good. But yet another thing very high on the life cost (and expensive to get since you can only find it in the Oloro deck...while it's also going to be a chase Legacy card I'm almost positive).
But this also kills our Kaalia in like every application. I'd think Fire Covenant is better since we can point it as needed, and is an instant. I understand it doesn't help with Hexproof crap, but there really isn't anything we can do about that anyway - maybe let them extend into a well-placed Hallowed Burial? For Uril you could try replacing some of our removal suite with cards such as Devour Flesh and Diabolic Edict.
For Toxic Deluge, I would play it in some kind of control deck that can protect itself well - the aforementioned Oloro deck is a great place for such a powerful, cheap sweeper - and it can be found by t2 Mystical Tutor into t3 kill your board trololol.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Firstly against MW, I love me some land destruction. Early turns - mana rocks and hand disruption (*kisses* Thoughtseize). Turn 4 Armageddon after 2 mana rocks and a top. Kaalia next turn and GG
Now this bant... 22 counter spells, a whole lot of bounce. Basically, my game plan was to find pieces to get her out safetly and protect her on the field. In the end, it was the massive card draw via Skeletal Scrying, necro, etc with uncounterable hand disruption (thank you mind twist for 7 that allowed me to hardcast my important stuff/creatures (Kaalia was countered once via FoW and the 2nd time was an EoT bounce - vapor snag)
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
I actually had a game against a Bant commander with that heavy disruption list up there. I stuck a t3 Liliana with an REB to back her up. He D-Spheres her and I REB it to get her back to three loyalty then next turn he plays Humility into my Mind Twist. I don't know, I just thought it was funny that he scoops when he has Humility (yea Lili was at five so I was gonna ult her to split lands and the enchantment but still. I was sitting with Rakdos and Master in my hand too). Lol.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.