I don't mean to make anything personal, but you made a very bold statement about your win-loss ratio with details that I knew absolutely to be untrue. I have no idea how your recent matches have gone (or your previous ones), but I saw you lose 0-2 to The Mimeoplasm less than 12 hours before posting that you've only lost to Doran and Maelstrom Wanderer. Did you forget so quickly? When I know part of your claim to be untrue, I am not predisposed to put much stock in the rest of it. It's nothing personal, but if I don't point out the discrepancy who will?
I know that I only watched a tiny number of your games, and noted so myself. I saw the entirety of the games I'm talking about though, and those are the only ones I'm commenting on. It doesn't change the facts.
You did take most of my suggestions, whether you admit it or not. Since my post, the spells you have cut have been Viashino Racketeer, Night's Whisper, Tainted Pact, Rain of Filth, Infernal Contract, Blazing Specter, Sanity Gnawers, Goblin Chieftain, Cabal Ritual, and Yawgmoth's Will. Except for those last 3, which I didn't mention but agree with, all of those are cards which I specifically pointed out as cards that should be cut and you went "no no no, they're great." Then a couple of days later you quietly cut them without explanation. You can call that "cut for unrelated reasons" if you like, but I call that taking my suggestions. (You also added 4 creatures that I was first to suggest during these changes.)
Tutors are only good when they're good tutors. When they cost 4 mana, or when they shout in big neon letters to your opponent "I'M GOING TO WIN NEXT TURN UNLESS YOU KEEP UP A COUNTERSPELL OR REMOVAL OR ENCHANTMENT REMOVAL OR BOUNCE OR AT LEAST PRETEND THAT YOU HAVE IT," then they are less good (unless your opponents are terrible, I suppose). If your only goal was to goldfish a combo kill asap, then sure, tutors are the way to go. But no decent decks will let you goldfish like that. In a way, my Varolz deck is as much of a combo deck as this (it can't win without finding one of two specific cards), yet I've cut even Grim Tutor, which is quite a good tutor, because competitive French EDH does not let you goldfish. If your combo deck is streamlined enough then combo still absolutely works. If you're giving up turns playing bad tutors, then good decks that can interact will time walk you and win as a result. Simple as that.
Like priests over workhorse because colored mana, and can be cast out of hand basically for free unlike the huge 6 cost of horse.
Already discussed. Not a big deal either way to be honest.
Ripper is unblockable, and 3 cards is massive. Specters blow and are slow/blockable. May even cut the one I have already.
Yes, it's unblockable. 3 cards may or may not be relevant...the one time I saw you use it, it certainly wasn't. I never said that specters were necessarily worth playing, and they may well not be. But it's not about Mindripper vs specter, it's about Mindripper vs anything else you could be playing. Does the card have enough impact every time it's flipped or cast to be worthwhile? I don't think that it does. Unless your opponent has only 2-3 cards in hand, getting hit by it isn't that big a deal.
I like my red mana in on non-basics, so when I do play moons it typically only hits the land I was using for red mana anyways. The deck desperately wants to have red mana on turn two to drop grenzo so I need to keep that count up to make sure I get that consistently. By the time cabals kicks in especially in a non monoblack deck something has gone seriously wrong with my gameplan and I have likely lost anyways. It is not designed to sink lots of mana into grenzo so it does not need ramp, its designed to win by turn 5 or sooner with normal land drops.
It's just an idea. It has pros and cons. I do think it's possible to make Cabal Coffers good and still be able to consistently cast Grenzo on turn 2 though.
Stone answers problems I otherwise don't have an answer for and is very solid it will not be leaving.
I think this is code for "I'm scared of Leyline" again. What exactly are you worried about? Chaos Warp (which I don't think is even necessary, but is fine) handles problem permanents well enough. Stone is slow, expensive, and also messes with your board unless you make it ludicrously slow and expensive. You're not even a control deck. I like the card, but it has no place in French EDH, and even less so in this deck. Don't make blanket statements like "it will not be leaving," that only closes doors in your mind and is how you end up taking things personally.
I disagree about Tuktuk scrapper. Sure it's probably better if you run moggcatcher, but outside of that the 1 mana difference would mean a grenzo flip in this deck. Much better to cast, and manic's lack of "may" is mostly irrelevant. The mandatory trigger from manic is unlikely to hurt grenzo I think, since the only artifact that you care about is chrome mox (solemn simulacrum, workhorse and triskelion don't mind dying, neither does phyrexian devourer).
Again, just an idea. I convinced you to run Moggcatcher though, and that's a good reason to include Moggcatcher. I think Manic Vandal hitting your own stuff is more important than just Chrome Mox, since Defense Grid and Phyrexian Revoker are also very good.
Also Braids can be a game-winning card by herself, much more powerful than a goblin settlers/avalanche riders. I wouldn't classify her as an LD card, but more as a game-winning bomb that can take over if unanswered. She gets better the more creatures you run in grenzo obviously.
I guess so. She's very high-variance though...sometimes she's a bomb, sometimes she's doesn't hinder your opponent at all, and is worse for you. In my experience, it's more often been the latter, but if she's working well then by all means keep her.
What Deaths said about leyline hurting some various combo stacks, including my dread return/body snatcher stacks, applies with scavenging ooze/relic as well, so I guess he has a point. Mad auntie is generally safer in the doomsday stack, but dread return and snatcher are good cards by themselves I find (especially with griselbrand as an additional target) and they're alternatives if auntie is exiled/in hand.
Yeah, I mean, I guess that's valid. It's not like you don't know about a Scavenging Ooze or Relic sitting in play though, so it just means you need to find an answer or pick a different stack. I don't hate Mad Auntie either though. I did hate Goblin Chieftain, but at least regeneration is something. I think that any of these stacks will work equally well 95% of the time though, so I'm more interesting in how useful the cards are outside of a Doomsday stack. Dread Return still seems like the winner so far. I'm undecided on Griselbrand (leaning towards no, but not because of Bribery), but either way I still like Dread Return as long as Necrotic Ooze is in the deck.
Lili is strong, but not over dystopia which keeps on loving, and hits enchants which I otherwise dont have an answer for. Redcap/nekrtull are really too narrow, outrage is subpar in hand but can actually do enough damage to kill a wide range of real threats. He is not the greatest, but he is better then those two because of that.
Lili also keeps on loving...that's what planeswalkers do. Dystopia is terrible enchantment removal...if it's killing a key enchantment, you opponent must have nothing else, and you should win that game anyway. It's a lot like Braids, where there are situations where it's quite good and situations where it's awful, but with Dystopia it's awful even more often. I'm highly skeptical that 3-4 damage from Outrage Shaman deals with more threats than Nekrataal. It may still be playable, don't get me wrong, but it wouldn't be my first choice for removal.
Therapy is meh compared to other options.
What other options? It's a 1 mana (or free) discard spell. That's like the best possible type of card for a straight combo deck, since it makes sure the coast is clear. It also gets better and better as you include more discard spells, and you have a bunch. I think Distress is a bit meh (but still quite possibly worth including). Cabal Therapy is anything but meh, it's very powerful here.
My statement said I also lost to yisan, and hell in the post directly above yours I said I lost to a Kami and nowhere did I say I did not loose to a mime (Despite having no recollection of doing so, I have beaten a mime, but I don't remember loosing a match to one, my memory is not the greatest, so I will not say that I did not), there was no discrepancy, just perhaps one unlisted according to you.
If your going to bust balls and pick at peoples posts, at least read what they post. Nothing I said was untrue, however accusing me of lying is a strait up lie and or a mistake w/e. I did not lie, however you are incorrectly quoting my posts. Try going back a page and reading my comments. You have been making it personal and you still are, and your posts are becoming increasingly insulting. Stop being a douche-bag.
Yes I agreed with you in some areas, gave you credit, did make changes and thanked you for it. But that is only a few things. And pretty much every cut has an explanation if you care to read through my conversations with other people. When things change or I find direct upgrades I make changes.
I have made a few points clear where I disagree with you, and you constantly bring them up despite me asking you to stop, and having contacted you outside of the thread so that this would be private. But yet you continue and are now are being dickish about it to.
(Adding "its not personal" to very personal, insulting, and largely false statements does not magically make them "not personal")
Distress reveals and targets, cabal is a crap shoot and am not fond of it for that reason, its a solid card, but I prefer every other discard I have in the deck currently, and don't really see other spots for it to go in.
Not listing a recent loss seems like a major omission when detailing how seldom you lose, but sure. Let's call it an honest mistake and move on.
I write long posts filled with discussion about card choices. There's nothing personal about that. When I questioned your win-loss ratio it was because of a specific discrepancy that I personally saw--again, not personal, nor meant to be insulting. I've reread my posts and I don't think that I've said anything insulting (though you certainly have just now...I'd edit that out, people have been banned for less).
I don't understand why you think it's personal or insulting when I bring up cards we disagree about. That's how debate works. We discuss our points of view until one of us persuades the other. I don't think we can never see eye to eye on these choices, and I disagree with your rebuttal. So I continue to bring up these cards. Why should I stop? This is how you arrive at a better deck. I'm helping you.
Because I asked you to both here, and in private chat. Accusing me of lieing is pretty much the greatest insult I can receive, you can sling profanities and bs at me all day, but insulting my honor is one thing I do not stand for, and I feel my response was very warranted especially after having asked you both here, and in private to stop, and or to keep this between us.
I am keeping Dystopia for the same reason as Braids, it has been discussed fairly at length and you at least partially agreed with the braids reasoning. Not convinced on mogg, but defintly considering it, if it makes it in I will swap in tuktuk as well.
As for the cards, I believe I have addressed all the new information, other then ones I have made it very clear that I strongly disagree with already.
The Mimeoplasm match was pretty memorable, at least game 1. You tried to go off with Doomsday and lost to the on-board trick when you forgot that he had Executioner's Capsule on the board. In the second one you got kind of manascrewed, against went for Doomsday, and lost to a counterspell. I never used the word "lie," which implies intent. I said something was untrue, which was factually accurate and personally witnessed. I can believe that you made a mistake, or even that you don't remember. That doesn't make what I said insulting.
Also, you edited that earlier post at some point to include Yisan and Kami. When I first read it, it just said Doran and Maelstrom Wanderer (I clearly remember this, because I was thinking about how I'd just seen you lose to something else). I didn't notice your edits sometime later.
As far as I saw, you didn't address a single one of those cuts.
And pretty much every cut has an explanation if you care to read through my conversations with other people.
Are they private conversations? I've read through this thread carefully and I don't see an explanation for why you chose to cut a single one of those cards. Maybe I'm missing something.
You messaged me on Cockatrice, calling me a douchebag, and asked me to edit my posts to be less insulting. I have not "slung profanities," that was all you. I asked you exactly want you want me edit out, and you couldn't tell me. I read through my posts again, as I said earlier, and couldn't find a single thing that I perceive as insulting. The only thing that comes close is the Mimeoplasm issue, which has already been discussed and was a statement of fact. Card discussion is not and has never been personal. I can think you're wrong about your reasoning behind certain cards, and say as much, without being insulting. It's an opinion. I put a lot of time and thought into my posts, and I'm not going to just edit for no reason. Everything I said was either fact or remains my opinion.
Cabal Therapy is not a crap shoot. The best use is as a second discard spell, after you've already seen their hand. It's a lot better than that in this deck though, since there are only so many cards you care about, and in the worst case scenario, you can play it blindly, miss, and still flash it back and win on the turn you go off.
I like this deck and was excited to see it get tuned, but I'm honestly getting sick of discussing it with you (and that's the most insulting thing I've said yet). I explain why a card doesn't belong (even when it should be very obvious, like with Viashino Racketeer), and you just write one short sentence that may or may not be relevant and say "it's final." Then you change them a few days later. If Oblivion Stone and Diabolic Tutor stay in your list long term, it will be out of pride or spite, not because they're good. I'm curious to see what happens.
Your ignoring most of what I am saying, taking what I do say far out of context. Untrue=lie, saying otherwise is bs. I have never been untruthful. I told you specificaly to remove the untruthful section, and the smug little intro where you try to take more credit then you deserve, I have the conversation from cockatrice right here as I am writing this so don't try to say Im mistaken and did not ask for that, as it is not true. You replied that you thought it was fine, you don't decide wether or not what you say is offensive. If someone says it is, it is.
I asked you here and private to stop criticizing my descions on tutors/leyline/stone but you blatantly ignored it, and did so repeatedly more disrespectful each time. Your not "debating" your ignoring, stating, and insulting. Debating is respectfully voicing opinions, convincing, and compromising. You have had a couple good ideas which I expressed grattitude for despite them often beeing very rudely presented.
Don't see explanations...-.- Half of those are when I switched to priest, that's explained there, and more specificaly in our conversation. I don't have to list every tiny detail about every cut for it to be explained. As for everything else I agreed and gave you credit, or acknowledged they were meh cards but disliked your suggested replacements, and later replaced them with things unrelated to your posts. Many of your suggestions I was already in the process of doing and in fact it went I often cut things you were against cutting.
My edits on my win ratio post are very old within a very short time of the post check the time stamp, you did and still are ignoring the post shortly before that. This shows how little you are paying attention. I did not acuse you of beeing profane, I said I would prefer it to beeing called a liar.
I am done discussing this with you, your posts are quickly geting less and less factual, I will not be replying to any more of this bs. If you go back to beeing a helpful construcive critic with new suggestions great. Anything on this past this point will just be you ignoring me further and trying to smugly get the last word in, if you insist w/e I have had enough trying to defend my self from your slander. Leave it alone, please stop.
I don't understand using Grenzo's ability blind. The lists I see run 1/4, maybe 1/3 tops creatures - that is statistically not very good odds of hitting something. Now suppose you get lucky and hit a creature: with so many specialized toolbox creatures in the deck, and no way to stack... I just don't understand that. How is that any good? Outside of the infinite "win now" combos, it seems random to run these guys that you want to hit off the bottom with no way of actually choosing which is coming. Or am I missing something?
Primary plan is win with combo, which it does very consistently (and typically successfully with my heavy discard suite) by turn 5 or sooner.
Grenzos is a combo tool and blind activating his ability is primarily a back up plan, and just a spare mana sink. 29 creatures is enough to pretty consistently flip into creatures with a try or two. The creatures chosen are a control toolbox to enable comboing safely rather then a route to try and win with, although that is still possible, and most are decent enough to hard cast.
It also makes mulling really easy as you pitch pretty much all creatures in hand for land or combos. A big handful of them are all involved in the combos as well. I have had really good results testing.
Have you considered Underworld Connections in the list? I feel like being able to draw more cards would help the combo and be good vs. control. It could also let you use all your mana if you just want to play the Grenzo lottery, and you have an odd amount of mana.
Connections is a solid card, however I think I would put nights whisper and sign in blood back in over it. The current list really wants to be maximizing creatures and minimizing spells. But soon I am going to try a different list that is less creature oriented. Thank you for the suggestion, it may make it into my alternative list.
Basically I put alot of effort into shifting it more towards using grenzo's ability outside of the combo, without taking away from the consistency of the gold fish. I like where its at, but now the deck lacks clutch board control, and when I am not goldfishing (given I often do), I am playing a crapshoot with grenzo, which can be really strong with good flips, and also pretty bad.
Currently while versatile, it is not specialized like both Khymera and Kwisnik have pointed out its unfocused. Because of that it can get shut down by more things then a dedicated list, and without the clutch board control, Scavenging Ooze, Linvala, Negator, all incredibly common cards have been shutting me out. I think all this work trying to make grenzos ability better has been for naught, I likely should have been going the other way getting it to were I don't use his ability outside of his combos.
My original list was much less oriented around using him aside from a combo tool and I think I was doing better then, than I am now. So I will be testing out dedicated combo/control again, rather then this awkward hybrid between good stuff grenzo and combo that it evolved into. Testing it out now, if I like it, I will put this current version in spoilers as a way of archiving it, and update with what I am using now.
Edit: They both have strengths and weaknesses, while the creature light version is focused and has good removal, I miss the ability to mana sink into grenzo for big surprises and a good control factor that cheat there way past anything that would stop them. Dedicated is consistently powerful, creature version can be stronger or weaker. Not quite sure which is better, will need to do alot more testing.
Edit: While the creature version is weaker to decks like yisan and animar where I need clutch removal, and does have a few more weaknesses, it does much better versus control which is pretty big in the meta. It will ultimately come down to a meta and or playstyle choice.
Here's the list I've been using. It's a goodstuff deck that lucks into combo occasionally, and has a very reasonable chance to flip with Grenzo. I've had positive matchups across the board already, especially against control. Marath enchantment seems to be my only bad matchup if I don't have dystopia.
yeah that was a fun play t1 temple of malice scry herald to bottom, t2 grenzo, t3 cabal therapy EOT flash in herald t4 cast body snatcher discard fulminator mage, flashback therapy sac/trigger body snatcher to return fulminator mage and take their threat. opponent's down 2 lands lol
As long as the ruling holds true that grenzo can ignore leyline/rip I think it will be safe to cut my helm combo, should that ruling change/prove wrong it will be added back in. Goodstuff version has been strugling more against linvala, meddling mage, and negator then gravehate (well scavenging ooze pops up all the time but is not as bad). With the dday stack replaced, and the newest combo I am going to add in I feel it is no longer necessary, so I am happy to replace it with voodo powers and some removal.
The new combo wont get used often, but it fits right in and is hilarious (and I came up with it my self :D) Stuffy Doll+Fire Covenant+ having the same or more life then your opponent.
On a side note, aside from actually being castable, the colored mana the red priest gives is important as on occasion you will not have a red mana land when using dragon combo (cus of wasteland, or cus you used cavern of souls or the like to get grenzo out), this enables you to get the red mana you need to win as black mana just wont do the trick. There is also the situation of wanting to hardcast kiki or others who need more then one red mana.
Your list looks really nice. You showed me a list a few days before which I wasn't super-impressed with, but I like your changes a lot. The hardest thing with this deck is getting the right balance of between combo and consistency, creatures and other things, and I think this is the first list that really has that. All of your plans look powerful and efficient.
I still have several comments regarding specific cards (please don't take them personally!!!):
Creatures:
Grim Lavamancer. I do like this guy, but it's a little awkward that you have plenty of cards you don't want to exile or don't get milled by Grenzo. In the very early game, when he's most useful, you might not be able to use him, and later on you don't necessarily want to be sinking mana into him. What about Sparksmith instead? You pay 1 more mana up front (if you have to cast it), but then it's free to use, and should consistently be able to get you 2 damage pings with the potential for more.
Viscera Seer. I think I get what you're trying to do here (scry creatures to bottom and enable Body Snatcher), but it feels a bit forced and underpowered. I goldfished some games against myself and was really unimpressed each time I drew this. There are only a few creatures in the deck you want to sac, and the scry is okay but not necessarily worth a card. I feel like you'd probably be better off just forgetting about Body Snatcher and getting rid of the little sacrifice subtheme. You definitely don't need Body Snatcher for a Doomsday stack with your list.
Chittering Rats. Not a bad card but it feels like filler. Is it really good? If it is, I'd suggest that Phyrexian Rager is probably as good or better, since +1 card for you is going to be more consistent than -1 card for your opponent, who may have 0 cards in hand, plenty to play, or a shuffle. You could play both though.
Ophiomancer. This is a sweet card but it just doesn't seem that great to me, though I could be wrong. I feel like it's mostly just one of the few cards that goes with Viscera Seer though, and I don't know that it's worthwhile overall in this list.
Blazing Specter. I still think this is very weak. It just doesn't put that much pressure on in most situations. I feel like if Blazing Specter plays a role in winning you a game (rather than being irrelevant overall), you were going to win that game anyway, since they probably had nothing. It's so much worse than the other specters.
Necrotic Ooze combo. I know I suggested this a while back but I was never really confident about it. It still seems a bit questionable to me. The problem with the combo is that you really need Buried Alive to set it up, and it takes all 3 cards. You can't get Griselbrand or Dragon too for backup, and in most cases Buried Alive for one of those cards alone would be almost as good. Factor in that Necrotic Ooze and Phyrexian Devourer are pretty bad on their own, and I'm not sold. How many games have you actually won with it? I think I still like Triskelion on its own merits, but I'd probably do away with the rest of the combo.
Workhorse. I know I said Workhorse over Priest of Urabrask, in your list I'm not so sure anymore. It's still pretty close, but I think your deck is more likely to actually want to cast the card. The creature density is high enough that having more bodies may be relevant. I'm not sure you need 2 of these effects at all, but if you do I think I'd favor the Priests now.
Your spells look really tight overall. The iffiest slots are Gamble, Dystopia, and Phyrexian Arena, but they still look fairly solid in this list.
I'm not sold on the hideaway lands, but that's pretty theoretical. I don't feel like you'll activate them very often, and the opportunity cost of citp lands is pretty huge in a fast deck like this. I get that they can scry a few cards to the bottom for Grenzo, but that seems more cute than anything else. Unless you have a shuffle it doesn't change much either. I could well be wrong though, and if they work for you, by all means keep using them. It's a cool interaction.
I'd probably drop Phyrexian Tower along with Body Snatcher. I never liked drawing it.
Although I don't like Body Snatcher (too hard to use), I feel like Doomed Necromancer and Apprentice Necromancer might actually be perfect for your deck. They both are the right size for Grenzo, and are no good with Dragon (like Body Snatcher), but great with Griselbrand, Necrotic Ooze (if you keep it) or assembling a disrupted combo. They're cheap enough that even just using them on value creatures is ok too. I think these are a great fit.
With this many creatures, I think Sword of Feast and Famine probably belongs. The card is just generally great in this format, and is particularly good with Grenzo around. Doubling your activations every turn while giving Grenzo protection sounds pretty awesome. Umezawa's Jitte may be worth considering as well, on the same principles, though this is probably the first deck ever where I think the Sword is actually better.
I think you're obligated to play Duress. Sorry, but those are the rules. Cheap discard is not the place to shave slots, since it's great against...everything. Cabal Therapy also makes you want to play as much of this sort of thing as possible.
This seems like a good list for Dark Ritual. Powering out a insta-kill Doomsday off 3 lands sounds fantastic, and turn 1 Liliana, Phyrexian Arena, or Hypnotic Specter are all super strong plays. I noticed that this deck tends to build up cards in hand sometimes, since it can be better to sink mana into Grenzo instead as long as you can keep him around, so I think you can afford to run this kind of effect.
That's all I've got for now. This is all theory-craft, but I'm digging your list. I'm excited about the Necromancers...please give them a shot (I won't have time to test).
I win over half my games with ooze, given I have more ways to tutor for it then spas, but its solid, and triskelion is an amazing flip off of grenzo. I agree with you everywhere else.
Will do khymera! I'll debate your ideas when I'm back home.
EDIT: Back!
Grim Lavamancer: There actually aren't that many cards you care about getting milled by Grenzo when he whiffs. From experience I usually have like 5 or 6 cards in the graveyard by turn 4 or 5, most of if not all are lands or noncreature spells. Even if you milled doomsday, you wouldn't really mind pitching it to lavamancer because you can't really recur doomsday anyway, and the deck only uses doomsday as a secondary or tertiary wincon.
You're quite right that he's better in the early game, but there are still a decent number of ways to get him active early, like fetches, discard, free removal, tutors etc. Sparksmith is an interesting option, but it's a shame he can't ping walkers. But I do like he doesn't require a mana investment, which in lavamancer's case IMO is more of an issue than his exiling cards as a cost.
Viscera Seer: I have yet to find him underwhelming. He's a one mana investment that I don't consider card disadvantage because, let's face it, Grenzo does tend to pile up cards in hand pretty quickly if he sticks around to keep flipping. The odd mana cost is another thing he's got going for him (this deck likes odd numbers). He's good in matchups where you're afraid of Gilded Drake effects, and matchups that are heavy in removal - he effectively generates card advantage if you get board wiped. I feel that a good scry is akin to card advantage in this deck because of Grenzo.
I understand he might seem a bit do-nothing when you goldfish, but he gets alot better when you play actual protracted games with like, interaction y'know. Lol. So overall I'd argue he's "worth a card" in hand, but might not necessarily be worth a slot in the deck the more it gets tuned later. I'll expand more on him when I get to Ophiomancer and Body Snatcher.
Chittering Rats: Yeah, Deaths and khardrock think that he's pretty underwhelming compared to the other discard options currently in the deck. About phyrexian rager I've never tried him so I can't say, but my gut tells me rager has no place in the deck. Anyways, no way in hell is he a filler :P. I struggle enough with cutting cards, and he's been swapped in and out several times. I like him because he can time walk opponents if they miss a land drop (although one can argue that you're likely winning in that scenario anyway). The -1 card for your opponent is pretty consistent; less than 1-in-5 cases has my opponent had 0 cards in hand. Anyways, he's always one of the first on the chopping board when I'm trying out new options.
Ophiomancer: Yes I agree with you completely, and it got cut the day after I posted my list on this thread. I liked the cool interactions with Braids, Viscera and cabal therapy/dread return, but I now realise that if you ever have both Braids or Viscera out with ophiomancer it's winmore anyway. That also means cutting ophiomancer doesn't weaken viscera seer, because having that interaction active already means you're winning.
Blazing Specter: Yep another card that I've been wanting to cut, nailing it so far Khymera ;). What I do like about him is that he's one of the 20 red cards I can pitch to Pyrokinesis, and he's also a good pitch to Chrome Mox. Although that says alot about him if the first thing that comes to mind is his use as fodder for pyro lol...
He's the weakest out of Hypnotic, Shimian and Blazing, but since he has haste that doesn't make him strictly worse than the other two. He might end up getting permanently axed though.
Necrotic Ooze: Sometimes it's the only combo that works if the board state is locked and the opponent has active removal that's not a scooze or relic. You can't meaningfully interact with Ooze combo outside of grave hate. However, Buried Alive is not the only way to win with him. Sometimes having a phyrexian devourer in the yard is enough to just win with Ooze. He reads "Block me or die", and you can catch opponents off guard if you swing with him and Entomb for devourer. Also decent with griselbrand.
In your reasoning for cutting necrotic ooze you seemed to be focussing on Buried Alive as the only way to get value out of ooze. I don't think that's true, at least not for this deck. But it does suck that he's useless in Doomsday though.
Workhorse: I've rarely ever cast Priest of Gix as a chump blocker, but more often as mana accel with Phyrexian Tower. I suppose that could make Priest of Urabrask better than Workhorse. From experience, the advantage of Workhorse over Gix/Urabrask comes from flipping him with Grenzo. The 4/4 body and ability to flip twice at instant speed, or conserve mana for big plays in subsequent turns is incredibly strong. He's one of my favourite flips alongside Braids, Siege, Moggcatcher, Herald and Triskelion. If there's one thing Priest of Urabrask has got going over Workhorse, it's that she can be pitched to Pyrokinesis
Jokes aside, I'm currently trying out both Workhorse and Priest of Gix because sometimes I need the redundancy if one gets exiled/stuck in hand and I cast Doomsday. But you're right, either Workhorse or Gix can be cut if you really need to thin out the deck. I feel this will inevitably happen.
Howltooth Hollow & Spinerock Knoll: Once again, how much value you get out of the hideaway lands depends on your finesse in handling the deck (and a bit of luck). If in your opening hand you have a land, fetchland and hideaway, you play the fetchland or other land in the first two turns and save the hideaway for turn 3, even if you don't have a turn one play.
I might've neglected mentioning this, but you NEVER plan on activating the hideaway lands. I usually pitch the worst card out of the 4 to the hideaway land. Think of the hideaway as a a land that enters tapped but lets you SCRY FOR 4, then tell me if it's still a bad card :P. Entering tapped isn't that big of a deal, because of how this deck prefers even land drops. Drop it on turn 1, 3 or 5 and it usually doesn't slow you down.
Dystopia is a meta call. Once again, a silver bullet card that can help with some hard matchups. Also an odd number CMC. WE LOVE ODD NUMBERS!! <3
Gamble is easily the weakest tutor here, but it can often be a clutch play that allows you to win with all your spare mana available. I once did a sick play on turn 3 where I had 2 lands in play and 6 cards in hand: Gamble, Verdant Catacombs, Command Tower, Dance of the Dead, Reanimate and a Worldgorger Dragon. I figured I had a 50% chance to discard something I didn't need (one of the 2 lands and the dragon) so I took the gamble (ahah) and grabbed Unmask. Ended up discarding the command tower luckily, so I played my 3rd land, unmasked myself, pitching reanimate to discard dragon, and cast dance of the dead for the win :D. I can see Gamble getting cut to reduce the noncreature nonland slots though. I'm starting to mulligan it away more and more now due to the risk factor. But due to this deck's tendency to pile up cards in hand sometimes, topdecking a mid-late game Gamble might as well be a one-mana Demonic Tutor.
Phyrexian Tower: No. Card's too good. It's not going to color screw you even if it's in your opening hand anyway because you'd want to mulligan to at least 3 lands, so it will be your third land play at the earliest. Aside from being a sadistic Gilded Drake deterrent, having tower on turn 3 (or when you have an odd number of lands) means that if you flip a one-use ETB like entomber exarch or goblin settlers with your other two lands, you can sac it to upgrade to something cooler, or chain more ETB's. It's a great card, hopefully you'll see what I mean the more you use it.
Duress: You're right. At the time I tested Cabal Therapy I didn't know what other noncreature, nonland to cut, so I figured "Hey! Straight swap Duress for Cabal Therapy! No problemo!" and never looked back. But therapy is substantially more inconsistent than duress, and especially without duress.
I once did a cool play that involved therapy, with Griselbrand, Body Snatcher and Entomb in hand. It was something like turn 2 grenzo, turn 3 activate grenzo, EOT entomb for cabal therapy. t4 play body snatcher, discard griselbrand, and flashback therapy saccing snatcher to recur griselbrand. Therapy isn't as straightforwardly powerful, but it's tech and I like tech especially in a deck like this that runs fatties and entomb.
Necromancers: Yeah they require less finesse and are less work-around, but have less tech than snatcher, such as snatcher's ability to both discard a fatty and reanimate it. I'll try them though, and let you know how it goes!
I think it might be too cute but braid of fire could be huge in this deck. I know it is a 2 drop that you have to play on turn 2 instead of our commander but on turn 4 it will generate a free flip and is a must answer card if general is out. I know it is easy to deal with but it is one less card to break a combo for a 2 mana investment. I also like the necromancer but only if grizzle is in the deck. Also hello caretaker is a similar card but it is a bad recourse nightmare that can get flipped but if it stays out you probably win with all the dumb etc triggers in the deck. If we keep adding creatures it may be time to add mass reanimated cards
Surprisingly I have not come up against Mara, I suspect it will be a pretty even match up. As for azami I have beaten her twice, also beaten a clique, and two kamis, allthough I did loose once against a kami as well. The really heavy hand destruction the deck runs combined with the way grenzo cheats things past counterspells makes control have a tough time against it.
i shall test it against a marath, without oloro decks, at least here my meta will have a lot of maraths...
even Grenzo cheating because they cant counter his skill (ofc aside stifle and stuff) if they counter the key things, like ooze, and the reanimator packages? without them, do you still manage to win before they combo out? i had problems facing mono U.
i want to get a new competitive deck(already own 2 but dont wanna invest money on something without any returns), and im liking your deck as it is a "new thing" , since you made it, do you think that this deck can be really competitive for championships or more like a competitive for friends and getting a beer?
Goodstuff against Marath combo is pretty hard because of their many ways to combo just as early as you on turn 4 or 5, tutor linvala/scooze, or just ping grenzo. In that matchup you can land grenzo on the play before they drop marath and maybe get off one activation or removal before they kill grenzo with marath. Many times you'd want to play grenzo for 3 so the marath player would have to expend all their mana and sac marath to kill grenzo. Since it's not efficient for them to do that, they would probably just set up their own combo instead of killing grenzo. If i'm on the draw there's really no good 2 drop i can play other than demonic tutor, because dark confidant or mesmeric fiend will just get pinged by marath. In a sense that would leave marath on 2 counters and let you play grenzo for 3 without the option of marath pinging grenzo, but they would likely sink their mana into setting up their combo, or play a bomb.
You really just have to combo before they do, or land an early pyrokinesis and get ahead because marath's presence will prevent you from swarming the field with grenzo activations.
Versus control I don't typically use combos unless I know its safe, I hold off and play a little more cautiously till they either tap out or I get a peek at there hand. In the meantime I can rely on grenzo. Control for my current version is not a bad match up. Marath and Doran still worry me, but I feel I am on an even playing ground with them. I very much believe grenzo will be able to move towards top tier competitiveness. Its because of decks like marath, yisan, animar, doran, and the like that I moved away from the goodstuff version because it is to reliant on grenzo.
i think it might be time to look into trying a 3-power doomsday build.
end of turn, insidious dreams for 3 into howltooth hollow, kiki-jiki and zealous conscripts LOL
I know that I only watched a tiny number of your games, and noted so myself. I saw the entirety of the games I'm talking about though, and those are the only ones I'm commenting on. It doesn't change the facts.
You did take most of my suggestions, whether you admit it or not. Since my post, the spells you have cut have been Viashino Racketeer, Night's Whisper, Tainted Pact, Rain of Filth, Infernal Contract, Blazing Specter, Sanity Gnawers, Goblin Chieftain, Cabal Ritual, and Yawgmoth's Will. Except for those last 3, which I didn't mention but agree with, all of those are cards which I specifically pointed out as cards that should be cut and you went "no no no, they're great." Then a couple of days later you quietly cut them without explanation. You can call that "cut for unrelated reasons" if you like, but I call that taking my suggestions. (You also added 4 creatures that I was first to suggest during these changes.)
Tutors are only good when they're good tutors. When they cost 4 mana, or when they shout in big neon letters to your opponent "I'M GOING TO WIN NEXT TURN UNLESS YOU KEEP UP A COUNTERSPELL OR REMOVAL OR ENCHANTMENT REMOVAL OR BOUNCE OR AT LEAST PRETEND THAT YOU HAVE IT," then they are less good (unless your opponents are terrible, I suppose). If your only goal was to goldfish a combo kill asap, then sure, tutors are the way to go. But no decent decks will let you goldfish like that. In a way, my Varolz deck is as much of a combo deck as this (it can't win without finding one of two specific cards), yet I've cut even Grim Tutor, which is quite a good tutor, because competitive French EDH does not let you goldfish. If your combo deck is streamlined enough then combo still absolutely works. If you're giving up turns playing bad tutors, then good decks that can interact will time walk you and win as a result. Simple as that.
Already discussed. Not a big deal either way to be honest.
Yes, it's unblockable. 3 cards may or may not be relevant...the one time I saw you use it, it certainly wasn't. I never said that specters were necessarily worth playing, and they may well not be. But it's not about Mindripper vs specter, it's about Mindripper vs anything else you could be playing. Does the card have enough impact every time it's flipped or cast to be worthwhile? I don't think that it does. Unless your opponent has only 2-3 cards in hand, getting hit by it isn't that big a deal.
It's just an idea. It has pros and cons. I do think it's possible to make Cabal Coffers good and still be able to consistently cast Grenzo on turn 2 though.
I think this is code for "I'm scared of Leyline" again. What exactly are you worried about? Chaos Warp (which I don't think is even necessary, but is fine) handles problem permanents well enough. Stone is slow, expensive, and also messes with your board unless you make it ludicrously slow and expensive. You're not even a control deck. I like the card, but it has no place in French EDH, and even less so in this deck. Don't make blanket statements like "it will not be leaving," that only closes doors in your mind and is how you end up taking things personally.
Again, just an idea. I convinced you to run Moggcatcher though, and that's a good reason to include Moggcatcher. I think Manic Vandal hitting your own stuff is more important than just Chrome Mox, since Defense Grid and Phyrexian Revoker are also very good.
I guess so. She's very high-variance though...sometimes she's a bomb, sometimes she's doesn't hinder your opponent at all, and is worse for you. In my experience, it's more often been the latter, but if she's working well then by all means keep her.
Yeah, I mean, I guess that's valid. It's not like you don't know about a Scavenging Ooze or Relic sitting in play though, so it just means you need to find an answer or pick a different stack. I don't hate Mad Auntie either though. I did hate Goblin Chieftain, but at least regeneration is something. I think that any of these stacks will work equally well 95% of the time though, so I'm more interesting in how useful the cards are outside of a Doomsday stack. Dread Return still seems like the winner so far. I'm undecided on Griselbrand (leaning towards no, but not because of Bribery), but either way I still like Dread Return as long as Necrotic Ooze is in the deck.
Lili also keeps on loving...that's what planeswalkers do. Dystopia is terrible enchantment removal...if it's killing a key enchantment, you opponent must have nothing else, and you should win that game anyway. It's a lot like Braids, where there are situations where it's quite good and situations where it's awful, but with Dystopia it's awful even more often. I'm highly skeptical that 3-4 damage from Outrage Shaman deals with more threats than Nekrataal. It may still be playable, don't get me wrong, but it wouldn't be my first choice for removal.
What other options? It's a 1 mana (or free) discard spell. That's like the best possible type of card for a straight combo deck, since it makes sure the coast is clear. It also gets better and better as you include more discard spells, and you have a bunch. I think Distress is a bit meh (but still quite possibly worth including). Cabal Therapy is anything but meh, it's very powerful here.
If your going to bust balls and pick at peoples posts, at least read what they post. Nothing I said was untrue, however accusing me of lying is a strait up lie and or a mistake w/e. I did not lie, however you are incorrectly quoting my posts. Try going back a page and reading my comments. You have been making it personal and you still are, and your posts are becoming increasingly insulting. Stop being a douche-bag.
Yes I agreed with you in some areas, gave you credit, did make changes and thanked you for it. But that is only a few things. And pretty much every cut has an explanation if you care to read through my conversations with other people. When things change or I find direct upgrades I make changes.
I have made a few points clear where I disagree with you, and you constantly bring them up despite me asking you to stop, and having contacted you outside of the thread so that this would be private. But yet you continue and are now are being dickish about it to.
(Adding "its not personal" to very personal, insulting, and largely false statements does not magically make them "not personal")
Distress reveals and targets, cabal is a crap shoot and am not fond of it for that reason, its a solid card, but I prefer every other discard I have in the deck currently, and don't really see other spots for it to go in.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
I write long posts filled with discussion about card choices. There's nothing personal about that. When I questioned your win-loss ratio it was because of a specific discrepancy that I personally saw--again, not personal, nor meant to be insulting. I've reread my posts and I don't think that I've said anything insulting (though you certainly have just now...I'd edit that out, people have been banned for less).
I don't understand why you think it's personal or insulting when I bring up cards we disagree about. That's how debate works. We discuss our points of view until one of us persuades the other. I don't think we can never see eye to eye on these choices, and I disagree with your rebuttal. So I continue to bring up these cards. Why should I stop? This is how you arrive at a better deck. I'm helping you.
And now...back to the cards?
I am keeping Dystopia for the same reason as Braids, it has been discussed fairly at length and you at least partially agreed with the braids reasoning. Not convinced on mogg, but defintly considering it, if it makes it in I will swap in tuktuk as well.
As for the cards, I believe I have addressed all the new information, other then ones I have made it very clear that I strongly disagree with already.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
The Mimeoplasm match was pretty memorable, at least game 1. You tried to go off with Doomsday and lost to the on-board trick when you forgot that he had Executioner's Capsule on the board. In the second one you got kind of manascrewed, against went for Doomsday, and lost to a counterspell. I never used the word "lie," which implies intent. I said something was untrue, which was factually accurate and personally witnessed. I can believe that you made a mistake, or even that you don't remember. That doesn't make what I said insulting.
Also, you edited that earlier post at some point to include Yisan and Kami. When I first read it, it just said Doran and Maelstrom Wanderer (I clearly remember this, because I was thinking about how I'd just seen you lose to something else). I didn't notice your edits sometime later.
As far as I saw, you didn't address a single one of those cuts.
Are they private conversations? I've read through this thread carefully and I don't see an explanation for why you chose to cut a single one of those cards. Maybe I'm missing something.
You messaged me on Cockatrice, calling me a douchebag, and asked me to edit my posts to be less insulting. I have not "slung profanities," that was all you. I asked you exactly want you want me edit out, and you couldn't tell me. I read through my posts again, as I said earlier, and couldn't find a single thing that I perceive as insulting. The only thing that comes close is the Mimeoplasm issue, which has already been discussed and was a statement of fact. Card discussion is not and has never been personal. I can think you're wrong about your reasoning behind certain cards, and say as much, without being insulting. It's an opinion. I put a lot of time and thought into my posts, and I'm not going to just edit for no reason. Everything I said was either fact or remains my opinion.
Cabal Therapy is not a crap shoot. The best use is as a second discard spell, after you've already seen their hand. It's a lot better than that in this deck though, since there are only so many cards you care about, and in the worst case scenario, you can play it blindly, miss, and still flash it back and win on the turn you go off.
I like this deck and was excited to see it get tuned, but I'm honestly getting sick of discussing it with you (and that's the most insulting thing I've said yet). I explain why a card doesn't belong (even when it should be very obvious, like with Viashino Racketeer), and you just write one short sentence that may or may not be relevant and say "it's final." Then you change them a few days later. If Oblivion Stone and Diabolic Tutor stay in your list long term, it will be out of pride or spite, not because they're good. I'm curious to see what happens.
Your ignoring most of what I am saying, taking what I do say far out of context. Untrue=lie, saying otherwise is bs. I have never been untruthful. I told you specificaly to remove the untruthful section, and the smug little intro where you try to take more credit then you deserve, I have the conversation from cockatrice right here as I am writing this so don't try to say Im mistaken and did not ask for that, as it is not true. You replied that you thought it was fine, you don't decide wether or not what you say is offensive. If someone says it is, it is.
I asked you here and private to stop criticizing my descions on tutors/leyline/stone but you blatantly ignored it, and did so repeatedly more disrespectful each time. Your not "debating" your ignoring, stating, and insulting. Debating is respectfully voicing opinions, convincing, and compromising. You have had a couple good ideas which I expressed grattitude for despite them often beeing very rudely presented.
Don't see explanations...-.- Half of those are when I switched to priest, that's explained there, and more specificaly in our conversation. I don't have to list every tiny detail about every cut for it to be explained. As for everything else I agreed and gave you credit, or acknowledged they were meh cards but disliked your suggested replacements, and later replaced them with things unrelated to your posts. Many of your suggestions I was already in the process of doing and in fact it went I often cut things you were against cutting.
My edits on my win ratio post are very old within a very short time of the post check the time stamp, you did and still are ignoring the post shortly before that. This shows how little you are paying attention. I did not acuse you of beeing profane, I said I would prefer it to beeing called a liar.
I am done discussing this with you, your posts are quickly geting less and less factual, I will not be replying to any more of this bs. If you go back to beeing a helpful construcive critic with new suggestions great. Anything on this past this point will just be you ignoring me further and trying to smugly get the last word in, if you insist w/e I have had enough trying to defend my self from your slander. Leave it alone, please stop.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Grenzos is a combo tool and blind activating his ability is primarily a back up plan, and just a spare mana sink. 29 creatures is enough to pretty consistently flip into creatures with a try or two. The creatures chosen are a control toolbox to enable comboing safely rather then a route to try and win with, although that is still possible, and most are decent enough to hard cast.
It also makes mulling really easy as you pitch pretty much all creatures in hand for land or combos. A big handful of them are all involved in the combos as well. I have had really good results testing.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Basically I put alot of effort into shifting it more towards using grenzo's ability outside of the combo, without taking away from the consistency of the gold fish. I like where its at, but now the deck lacks clutch board control, and when I am not goldfishing (given I often do), I am playing a crapshoot with grenzo, which can be really strong with good flips, and also pretty bad.
Currently while versatile, it is not specialized like both Khymera and Kwisnik have pointed out its unfocused. Because of that it can get shut down by more things then a dedicated list, and without the clutch board control, Scavenging Ooze, Linvala, Negator, all incredibly common cards have been shutting me out. I think all this work trying to make grenzos ability better has been for naught, I likely should have been going the other way getting it to were I don't use his ability outside of his combos.
My original list was much less oriented around using him aside from a combo tool and I think I was doing better then, than I am now. So I will be testing out dedicated combo/control again, rather then this awkward hybrid between good stuff grenzo and combo that it evolved into. Testing it out now, if I like it, I will put this current version in spoilers as a way of archiving it, and update with what I am using now.
Edit: They both have strengths and weaknesses, while the creature light version is focused and has good removal, I miss the ability to mana sink into grenzo for big surprises and a good control factor that cheat there way past anything that would stop them. Dedicated is consistently powerful, creature version can be stronger or weaker. Not quite sure which is better, will need to do alot more testing.
Edit: While the creature version is weaker to decks like yisan and animar where I need clutch removal, and does have a few more weaknesses, it does much better versus control which is pretty big in the meta. It will ultimately come down to a meta and or playstyle choice.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
DoomWarden Goodstuff
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
Creatures - 38
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Viscera Seer
1 Dark Confidant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Brain Maggot
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Mad Auntie
1 Chittering Rats
1 Priest of Gix
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Ophiomancer
1 Moggcatcher
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Blazing Specter
1 Shimian Specter
1 Body Snatcher
1 Disciple of Phenax
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Nekrataal
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Settler
1 Ravenous Baboons
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Workhorse
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Herald of Leshrac
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Griselbrand
Spells - 25
1 Unmask
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Entomb
1 Reanimate
1 Gamble
1 Faithless Looting
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Doomsday
1 Necromancy
1 Buried Alive
1 Grim Tutor
1 Dread Return
1 Chrome Mox
1 Snuff Out
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Dismember
1 Fire Covenant
1 Dystopia
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Blood Moon
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
10 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
1 Badlands
1 Command Tower
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Tainted Peak
1 City of Brass
1 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Malice
1 Graven Cairns
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Howltooth Hollow
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Wasteland
1 Cavern of Souls
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
The new combo wont get used often, but it fits right in and is hilarious (and I came up with it my self :D) Stuffy Doll+Fire Covenant+ having the same or more life then your opponent.
On a side note, aside from actually being castable, the colored mana the red priest gives is important as on occasion you will not have a red mana land when using dragon combo (cus of wasteland, or cus you used cavern of souls or the like to get grenzo out), this enables you to get the red mana you need to win as black mana just wont do the trick. There is also the situation of wanting to hardcast kiki or others who need more then one red mana.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Your list looks really nice. You showed me a list a few days before which I wasn't super-impressed with, but I like your changes a lot. The hardest thing with this deck is getting the right balance of between combo and consistency, creatures and other things, and I think this is the first list that really has that. All of your plans look powerful and efficient.
I still have several comments regarding specific cards (please don't take them personally!!!):
Creatures:
Grim Lavamancer. I do like this guy, but it's a little awkward that you have plenty of cards you don't want to exile or don't get milled by Grenzo. In the very early game, when he's most useful, you might not be able to use him, and later on you don't necessarily want to be sinking mana into him. What about Sparksmith instead? You pay 1 more mana up front (if you have to cast it), but then it's free to use, and should consistently be able to get you 2 damage pings with the potential for more.
Viscera Seer. I think I get what you're trying to do here (scry creatures to bottom and enable Body Snatcher), but it feels a bit forced and underpowered. I goldfished some games against myself and was really unimpressed each time I drew this. There are only a few creatures in the deck you want to sac, and the scry is okay but not necessarily worth a card. I feel like you'd probably be better off just forgetting about Body Snatcher and getting rid of the little sacrifice subtheme. You definitely don't need Body Snatcher for a Doomsday stack with your list.
Chittering Rats. Not a bad card but it feels like filler. Is it really good? If it is, I'd suggest that Phyrexian Rager is probably as good or better, since +1 card for you is going to be more consistent than -1 card for your opponent, who may have 0 cards in hand, plenty to play, or a shuffle. You could play both though.
Ophiomancer. This is a sweet card but it just doesn't seem that great to me, though I could be wrong. I feel like it's mostly just one of the few cards that goes with Viscera Seer though, and I don't know that it's worthwhile overall in this list.
Blazing Specter. I still think this is very weak. It just doesn't put that much pressure on in most situations. I feel like if Blazing Specter plays a role in winning you a game (rather than being irrelevant overall), you were going to win that game anyway, since they probably had nothing. It's so much worse than the other specters.
Necrotic Ooze combo. I know I suggested this a while back but I was never really confident about it. It still seems a bit questionable to me. The problem with the combo is that you really need Buried Alive to set it up, and it takes all 3 cards. You can't get Griselbrand or Dragon too for backup, and in most cases Buried Alive for one of those cards alone would be almost as good. Factor in that Necrotic Ooze and Phyrexian Devourer are pretty bad on their own, and I'm not sold. How many games have you actually won with it? I think I still like Triskelion on its own merits, but I'd probably do away with the rest of the combo.
Workhorse. I know I said Workhorse over Priest of Urabrask, in your list I'm not so sure anymore. It's still pretty close, but I think your deck is more likely to actually want to cast the card. The creature density is high enough that having more bodies may be relevant. I'm not sure you need 2 of these effects at all, but if you do I think I'd favor the Priests now.
Your spells look really tight overall. The iffiest slots are Gamble, Dystopia, and Phyrexian Arena, but they still look fairly solid in this list.
I'm not sold on the hideaway lands, but that's pretty theoretical. I don't feel like you'll activate them very often, and the opportunity cost of citp lands is pretty huge in a fast deck like this. I get that they can scry a few cards to the bottom for Grenzo, but that seems more cute than anything else. Unless you have a shuffle it doesn't change much either. I could well be wrong though, and if they work for you, by all means keep using them. It's a cool interaction.
I'd probably drop Phyrexian Tower along with Body Snatcher. I never liked drawing it.
Other cards to consider...
Already mentioned Sparksmith and Phyrexian Rager.
Although I don't like Body Snatcher (too hard to use), I feel like Doomed Necromancer and Apprentice Necromancer might actually be perfect for your deck. They both are the right size for Grenzo, and are no good with Dragon (like Body Snatcher), but great with Griselbrand, Necrotic Ooze (if you keep it) or assembling a disrupted combo. They're cheap enough that even just using them on value creatures is ok too. I think these are a great fit.
With this many creatures, I think Sword of Feast and Famine probably belongs. The card is just generally great in this format, and is particularly good with Grenzo around. Doubling your activations every turn while giving Grenzo protection sounds pretty awesome. Umezawa's Jitte may be worth considering as well, on the same principles, though this is probably the first deck ever where I think the Sword is actually better.
I think you're obligated to play Duress. Sorry, but those are the rules. Cheap discard is not the place to shave slots, since it's great against...everything. Cabal Therapy also makes you want to play as much of this sort of thing as possible.
This seems like a good list for Dark Ritual. Powering out a insta-kill Doomsday off 3 lands sounds fantastic, and turn 1 Liliana, Phyrexian Arena, or Hypnotic Specter are all super strong plays. I noticed that this deck tends to build up cards in hand sometimes, since it can be better to sink mana into Grenzo instead as long as you can keep him around, so I think you can afford to run this kind of effect.
That's all I've got for now. This is all theory-craft, but I'm digging your list. I'm excited about the Necromancers...please give them a shot (I won't have time to test).
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
EDIT: Back!
Grim Lavamancer: There actually aren't that many cards you care about getting milled by Grenzo when he whiffs. From experience I usually have like 5 or 6 cards in the graveyard by turn 4 or 5, most of if not all are lands or noncreature spells. Even if you milled doomsday, you wouldn't really mind pitching it to lavamancer because you can't really recur doomsday anyway, and the deck only uses doomsday as a secondary or tertiary wincon.
You're quite right that he's better in the early game, but there are still a decent number of ways to get him active early, like fetches, discard, free removal, tutors etc. Sparksmith is an interesting option, but it's a shame he can't ping walkers. But I do like he doesn't require a mana investment, which in lavamancer's case IMO is more of an issue than his exiling cards as a cost.
Viscera Seer: I have yet to find him underwhelming. He's a one mana investment that I don't consider card disadvantage because, let's face it, Grenzo does tend to pile up cards in hand pretty quickly if he sticks around to keep flipping. The odd mana cost is another thing he's got going for him (this deck likes odd numbers). He's good in matchups where you're afraid of Gilded Drake effects, and matchups that are heavy in removal - he effectively generates card advantage if you get board wiped. I feel that a good scry is akin to card advantage in this deck because of Grenzo.
I understand he might seem a bit do-nothing when you goldfish, but he gets alot better when you play actual protracted games with like, interaction y'know. Lol. So overall I'd argue he's "worth a card" in hand, but might not necessarily be worth a slot in the deck the more it gets tuned later. I'll expand more on him when I get to Ophiomancer and Body Snatcher.
Chittering Rats: Yeah, Deaths and khardrock think that he's pretty underwhelming compared to the other discard options currently in the deck. About phyrexian rager I've never tried him so I can't say, but my gut tells me rager has no place in the deck. Anyways, no way in hell is he a filler :P. I struggle enough with cutting cards, and he's been swapped in and out several times. I like him because he can time walk opponents if they miss a land drop (although one can argue that you're likely winning in that scenario anyway). The -1 card for your opponent is pretty consistent; less than 1-in-5 cases has my opponent had 0 cards in hand. Anyways, he's always one of the first on the chopping board when I'm trying out new options.
Ophiomancer: Yes I agree with you completely, and it got cut the day after I posted my list on this thread. I liked the cool interactions with Braids, Viscera and cabal therapy/dread return, but I now realise that if you ever have both Braids or Viscera out with ophiomancer it's winmore anyway. That also means cutting ophiomancer doesn't weaken viscera seer, because having that interaction active already means you're winning.
Blazing Specter: Yep another card that I've been wanting to cut, nailing it so far Khymera ;). What I do like about him is that he's one of the 20 red cards I can pitch to Pyrokinesis, and he's also a good pitch to Chrome Mox. Although that says alot about him if the first thing that comes to mind is his use as fodder for pyro lol...
He's the weakest out of Hypnotic, Shimian and Blazing, but since he has haste that doesn't make him strictly worse than the other two. He might end up getting permanently axed though.
Necrotic Ooze: Sometimes it's the only combo that works if the board state is locked and the opponent has active removal that's not a scooze or relic. You can't meaningfully interact with Ooze combo outside of grave hate. However, Buried Alive is not the only way to win with him. Sometimes having a phyrexian devourer in the yard is enough to just win with Ooze. He reads "Block me or die", and you can catch opponents off guard if you swing with him and Entomb for devourer. Also decent with griselbrand.
In your reasoning for cutting necrotic ooze you seemed to be focussing on Buried Alive as the only way to get value out of ooze. I don't think that's true, at least not for this deck. But it does suck that he's useless in Doomsday though.
Workhorse: I've rarely ever cast Priest of Gix as a chump blocker, but more often as mana accel with Phyrexian Tower. I suppose that could make Priest of Urabrask better than Workhorse. From experience, the advantage of Workhorse over Gix/Urabrask comes from flipping him with Grenzo. The 4/4 body and ability to flip twice at instant speed, or conserve mana for big plays in subsequent turns is incredibly strong. He's one of my favourite flips alongside Braids, Siege, Moggcatcher, Herald and Triskelion. If there's one thing Priest of Urabrask has got going over Workhorse, it's that she can be pitched to Pyrokinesis
Jokes aside, I'm currently trying out both Workhorse and Priest of Gix because sometimes I need the redundancy if one gets exiled/stuck in hand and I cast Doomsday. But you're right, either Workhorse or Gix can be cut if you really need to thin out the deck. I feel this will inevitably happen.
Howltooth Hollow & Spinerock Knoll: Once again, how much value you get out of the hideaway lands depends on your finesse in handling the deck (and a bit of luck). If in your opening hand you have a land, fetchland and hideaway, you play the fetchland or other land in the first two turns and save the hideaway for turn 3, even if you don't have a turn one play.
I might've neglected mentioning this, but you NEVER plan on activating the hideaway lands. I usually pitch the worst card out of the 4 to the hideaway land. Think of the hideaway as a a land that enters tapped but lets you SCRY FOR 4, then tell me if it's still a bad card :P. Entering tapped isn't that big of a deal, because of how this deck prefers even land drops. Drop it on turn 1, 3 or 5 and it usually doesn't slow you down.
Dystopia is a meta call. Once again, a silver bullet card that can help with some hard matchups. Also an odd number CMC. WE LOVE ODD NUMBERS!! <3
Gamble is easily the weakest tutor here, but it can often be a clutch play that allows you to win with all your spare mana available. I once did a sick play on turn 3 where I had 2 lands in play and 6 cards in hand: Gamble, Verdant Catacombs, Command Tower, Dance of the Dead, Reanimate and a Worldgorger Dragon. I figured I had a 50% chance to discard something I didn't need (one of the 2 lands and the dragon) so I took the gamble (ahah) and grabbed Unmask. Ended up discarding the command tower luckily, so I played my 3rd land, unmasked myself, pitching reanimate to discard dragon, and cast dance of the dead for the win :D. I can see Gamble getting cut to reduce the noncreature nonland slots though. I'm starting to mulligan it away more and more now due to the risk factor. But due to this deck's tendency to pile up cards in hand sometimes, topdecking a mid-late game Gamble might as well be a one-mana Demonic Tutor.
Phyrexian Tower: No. Card's too good. It's not going to color screw you even if it's in your opening hand anyway because you'd want to mulligan to at least 3 lands, so it will be your third land play at the earliest. Aside from being a sadistic Gilded Drake deterrent, having tower on turn 3 (or when you have an odd number of lands) means that if you flip a one-use ETB like entomber exarch or goblin settlers with your other two lands, you can sac it to upgrade to something cooler, or chain more ETB's. It's a great card, hopefully you'll see what I mean the more you use it.
Duress: You're right. At the time I tested Cabal Therapy I didn't know what other noncreature, nonland to cut, so I figured "Hey! Straight swap Duress for Cabal Therapy! No problemo!" and never looked back. But therapy is substantially more inconsistent than duress, and especially without duress.
I once did a cool play that involved therapy, with Griselbrand, Body Snatcher and Entomb in hand. It was something like turn 2 grenzo, turn 3 activate grenzo, EOT entomb for cabal therapy. t4 play body snatcher, discard griselbrand, and flashback therapy saccing snatcher to recur griselbrand. Therapy isn't as straightforwardly powerful, but it's tech and I like tech especially in a deck like this that runs fatties and entomb.
Dark Ritual & Sword of Feast and Famine: Good calls. I've also wanted to try ritual for a while.
Necromancers: Yeah they require less finesse and are less work-around, but have less tech than snatcher, such as snatcher's ability to both discard a fatty and reanimate it. I'll try them though, and let you know how it goes!
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
even Grenzo cheating because they cant counter his skill (ofc aside stifle and stuff) if they counter the key things, like ooze, and the reanimator packages? without them, do you still manage to win before they combo out? i had problems facing mono U.
i want to get a new competitive deck(already own 2 but dont wanna invest money on something without any returns), and im liking your deck as it is a "new thing" , since you made it, do you think that this deck can be really competitive for championships or more like a competitive for friends and getting a beer?
You really just have to combo before they do, or land an early pyrokinesis and get ahead because marath's presence will prevent you from swarming the field with grenzo activations.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
and yea i know i already playing animar as well lol
end of turn, insidious dreams for 3 into howltooth hollow, kiki-jiki and zealous conscripts LOL
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)