Nice on the bit lucky winrates. It happened to me when I first started with my MW. Adding those lands makes control mu easier for us. For me, I have my Titan or ramps thinning my deck. Yours have Expedition map which is easier to be search by Trinket. When Boseiju is online, your counters are safe. If Cavern is online, Keranos is a guaranteed online (same with my MW... I just named it Elemental even it's one of the few creatures that I run).
It also happen the same way when I'm using Marath aggro. Against Oloro, Blood Cards do pissed them off.
What's your current list so far? Not sure if you have space for Trinket and some of the new cards.
@dukxek: It's not a complete wipeout when facing Oloro. After my discussion with spastika online and here, his Keranos is a bit powerful as it was once started (based on his joyous glee with Oloro). Thread like this exist because we like Keranos to win. Spas and I have criticism with your deck and now you've seen what we're talking about (based on your rant with Oloro). Give us your input on why you have certain cards like that in your deck and how useful they really are in an actual game and we'll do the same.
Why not adding Ruination, Moon cards, Sulfuric Vortex and stuff? Oloro can gain tons of life but they still need mana to win. You can still ping him every turn that he'll start losing more than he can gain. 3 color deck's weakness is his reliance on nonbasic lands... Heck even a fetchlands can hurt him if you have Blood Moon in play.
Hoped that you exaggerate that 1000 life (too slow for an Oloro deck). Life gain isn't that a problem (Vortex is usually an answer for that... Which makes it 2-5 damage per turn), it's his spells are the problem. Keranos can start hurting him if you have the right cards.
Errr.... the right question is "do YOU like having those cards in your deck?"
What spastika and I did is giving proper insight on certain cards (Keranos) based on our experience (plus we test all of our theory online where the competitiveness is bit high) using cards with Keranos or other commanders.
As for you, does it really help the problem against Oloro?
I'm cutting down more of my counters to make room for mana rocks. I'm finding that I would rather just tap out than hold mana for an Counterspell or Impulse. I don't really have to counter their threats since playing proactively and wiping the board will take care of most things. The only problems you might face when you tap out are planeswalkers, Phyrexian Arena/Sylvan Library, and other card advantage sources that can survive a Wildfire. Also testing out Parallax Tide, Stifle, Pyroblast (they work well with each other).
I'm cutting more nonbasics to maximise Ruination, Blood Moon, Skred. Testing will tell if it affects my mana base too much since I run quite alot of RR spells like Anger of the Gods, but I hope that the extra mana rocks might help with colour fixing.
Updated original post with new decklist, and added sections for old decklists and old changelogs.
i'd posted this in my nin thread, but i wanted to post it here as well to see what your thoughts would be on this spastika. i am going for a harder control build on keranos modeled off the core of my nin deck. I dont want to ramp to keranos or wildfire but simply wait till i can drop them later to finish out the game. it's undergone light testing and so far shores up some of the weaknesses of nin. Which one is better is still to be seen.
The thing with Wildfire and frieds is that it prevents most opponents from using their resources. Just Keranos alone is enough that he can win games. In addition to his ability you can outland him or just bolt them to death. Just my .02 on him which I like the mass LD approach.
I feel that against aggro, playing proactively is more rewarding than playing draw-go. But you're probably gonna have an easier time than me against control with your current build. Let me know how you go.
Now onto some minor points. What are your thoughts on Flame Slash over Skred w/ snow lands? If I had to pick one, I'd pick Skred, since you only really need to deal 2-3 damage in the early game to kill any relevant early threat, making it on par with Flame Slash in that aspect. There's also instant speed and the potential to kill Titans in the mid-late game.
I've tested Destructive Force and it's pretty subpar, especially for my deck which aims to get Wildfire out by turn 5 (I believe turn 4-5 is the optimal time to resolve Wildfire). I'd either run the 2nd Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, or Jokulhaups which is actually the strongest sweeper (since it can shut down opposing mana rocks. Your deck doesn't run any ramp either, so there's really no drawback to playing Jokulhaups then). Devastation is also much better than Destructive Force. With Keranos out it's generally better that no players have any land than both players have two lands each on the field.
Actually shortly after this post I play tested ad noted that I didn't even want the mass ld past ruination and blood moon. I cut them both forage scale draw in stroke of genius and baby jace(which I'll probably switch for the instant draw 4 discard 3, can't Remember it's name). My biggest problem has been drawing counters after problem cards have resolved. I might want more bounce.
Skred does seem pretty good. At the moment I've been using flame slash in order to kill turn 2 brimaz, along with turn 3 Heros of bladehold. Sometimes you need the answer a few turns earlier and you don't always have all basics. For me slags has been more consistent early game. And I counter Titans often enough.
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As a Nin player, how would you compare Keranos and her once they're on the field? Their color and concept (counters, draw, Ruination and etc) are almost the same but how much impact do they get once they get cast?
The difference is the expenditure of mana on your opponents turn. Nin is a better stroke of genius but gets countered by any kill spell. Often times if we don't get her off for 4 or 5 we lose. This makes matchups against decks like griselbrand virtually unbeatable. Keranos however lets us tap out for one turn and get value the rest of the game. That being said that one turn they can drop anything and if you can't handle it you lose. He's basically a phyrexian arena for 5 who attacks planeswalkers. I think nin might still be the better hard control deck but I'm still testing and keranos is good against planeswalkers which was awful for nin.
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I can't disagree with you that Nin is better for hard control, but it really just boils down to playstyle in the end. I started building Keranos as permission control, but eventually it just seemed more intuitive to play Keranos as a tapout control type of deck. Of course it's always scary to tap out and risk getting absolutely destroyed, but if you know your matchup it's usually not that bad, and casting Wildfire/Jokulhaups will pretty much answer anything thereafter. I will eventually swing back to a hard control shell for Keranos with less ramp, less redundancy and more counters and looting, but for now tapout Keranos suits my playstyle and I have a much better winrate against Maelstrom Wanderer
Reweave also forces me to cut all my existing creatures in addition to enchantments, as Keranos is defined by its card types as both a creature AND enchantment, even when in play. Hm...
I was under the impression that Keranos's "isn't a creature" clause takes precedence since Reweave only cares about the types of the permanent as it last existed on the battlefield? So (assuming Keranos isn't turned on) you don't hit creatures, making it much less build-around than polymorph. But I've certainly been proved wrong before
This is correct. if he isn't a critter when Reweave is cast, then Reweave isn't going to fetch out a critter.
Ok thanks for the clarification. Omniscience requires alot of setup though doesn't it? Polymorph Vendilion Clique/Kami really just requires Polymorph, but Omniscience means I have to run clunky cards such as Petals of Insight, Grapeshot and Eerie Procession (Merchant Scroll fetches instants, so I can only really tutor for Fact or Fiction and pray to find Petals or Mystical Tutor for Petals but require a cantrip in hand) and have them in hand when I cast Reweave. So after resolving Reweave I need one of two specific cards in hand (Petals/Eerie) to find another specific card (Grapeshot). That's 5 dedicated combo cards that are bad by themselves. (Petals is still a more expensive Concentrate)
Sure would help if Burning Wish was playable...
It also doesn't help that Omni, unlike Dream Halls only lets me cast from my hand, so I can't do alternative plays such as Reweave Keranos, cast Keranos again for free, then cast Jokulhaups if I don't have a way to tutor for Petals.
4/1/2008 Reweave has received errata so that the effect looks for a *permanent* card that shares a type with the sacrificed permanent. A permanent card is a card that could be put onto the battlefield, which is any card that isn't an instant or sorcery.
Gods have the "creature" card-type regardless of the zone they're in (including the battlefield), so I think Reweave would actually still function. The main trouble is that you'd have to cut ALL your creatures AND enchantments (except for Emmy/Omni) in order to make it effective.
It's a neat idea but it sounds like a bit more trouble than it's worth. :<
The card straight says "If devo < 7, this isn't a creature". Yes Gods are both creatures and enchantments in other zones, except on the battlefield where they abide by their rules text.
First ruling on the page; "4/1/2005 When Reweave resolves it uses the type(s) that the permanent had right before it was sacrificed". So no, you won't go right into Emrakul unless Keranos is online (at which point I'd argue you don't need to get to Emrakul). While it's certainly possible to trim other enchantments, I don't feel the payoff is worth it - losing Future Sight is hard enough, but losing Treachery? I'm not okay with that.
First ruling on the page; "4/1/2005 When Reweave resolves it uses the type(s) that the permanent had right before it was sacrificed". So no, you won't go right into Emrakul unless Keranos is online (at which point I'd argue you don't need to get to Emrakul). While it's certainly possible to trim other enchantments, I don't feel the payoff is worth it - losing Future Sight is hard enough, but losing Treachery? I'm not okay with that.
Ah yeah, you're right! My bad. I assumed it was checking for "card types", not just the "permanent types".
future sight and treachery are the best cards in the deck, or at least they are in my current build, as such each one of those could be percieved as something as powerful as a reweave. in that instance we have 2. also the cost of reweave itself is exceedingly problematic, in what scenario do we actually resolve this spell against control?
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future sight and treachery are the best cards in the deck, or at least they are in my current build, as such each one of those could be percieved as something as powerful as a reweave. in that instance we have 2. also the cost of reweave itself is exceedingly problematic, in what scenario do we actually resolve this spell against control?
I don't believe control lets such a card resolve, no. Similar to Polymorph, a good control pilot should never allow such a blatant combo card to resolve.
I think it really depends on how you're intending to build the deck. I think the reweave kill package is actually pretty solid, since you don't need to tutor for your kill condition (petals will always find it). You resolve petals n times to go through your deck, then as many times as necessary to find your kill condition and draw it. If you have petals or a tutor when you resolve reweave, you'll win the game, and given the number of ways blue has to tutor up instants and sorceries, that really shouldn't be a problem. That effectively makes it a three card combo, since you need keranos, reweave, and a tutor. That's pretty good, considering omniscience can be used to set up other kill conditions as well (infinite turns with enter the infinite and beacon of tomorrows, dishing out infinite upkeep lightning bolts, or even the firemind's foresight kill, turnabout kills, etc.). Petals of insight is also a decent draw spell, so it isn't a dead card on its own, you're running tutors and library manipulation, and something like grapeshot can still double as removal if it needs to (though personally, I would use ignite memories for the extra flavour ;)).
The benefits of the combo are that it seems difficult to disrupt, since your commander is indestructible, and it fits nicely into a control shell. It also seems like it can go off insanely quick, though it needs a god hand with a lot of mana acceleration to pull off (making it much less effective than, say, oath of druids or hermit druid combo, ad nauseum, etc.). I think the omniscience reweave package is a good idea, but it's probably an orthogonal strategy to the one the deck in the op is trying to achieve. An LD deck doesn't really want to hold counterspells up, because it doesn't want to hold mana back. A storm deck would likely play more as a combo control deck, and thus make room for a lot of counters to help resolve a reweave and go off.
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It also happen the same way when I'm using Marath aggro. Against Oloro, Blood Cards do pissed them off.
What's your current list so far? Not sure if you have space for Trinket and some of the new cards.
@dukxek: It's not a complete wipeout when facing Oloro. After my discussion with spastika online and here, his Keranos is a bit powerful as it was once started (based on his joyous glee with Oloro). Thread like this exist because we like Keranos to win. Spas and I have criticism with your deck and now you've seen what we're talking about (based on your rant with Oloro). Give us your input on why you have certain cards like that in your deck and how useful they really are in an actual game and we'll do the same.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Hoped that you exaggerate that 1000 life (too slow for an Oloro deck). Life gain isn't that a problem (Vortex is usually an answer for that... Which makes it 2-5 damage per turn), it's his spells are the problem. Keranos can start hurting him if you have the right cards.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
What spastika and I did is giving proper insight on certain cards (Keranos) based on our experience (plus we test all of our theory online where the competitiveness is bit high) using cards with Keranos or other commanders.
As for you, does it really help the problem against Oloro?
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
You stated as if you're playing with Oloro and had a hard time against him.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
I'm cutting more nonbasics to maximise Ruination, Blood Moon, Skred. Testing will tell if it affects my mana base too much since I run quite alot of RR spells like Anger of the Gods, but I hope that the extra mana rocks might help with colour fixing.
Updated original post with new decklist, and added sections for old decklists and old changelogs.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Counterspells
1 Force of Will
1 Force Spike
1 Annul
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
1 Condescend
1 Izzet Charm
1 Counterspell
1 Negate
1 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Miscalculation
1 Memory Lapse
1 Counterflux
1 Forbid
1 Dissolve
1 Dismiss
1 Cryptic Command
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Sweepers
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Sudden Demise
1 Bonfire of the Damned
Spot Removal
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Flame Slash
1 Burst Lightning
1 Repeal
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Into the Roil
1 Electrolyze
1 Smash
Card Filter/Draw
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Peek
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Impulse
1 Cerebral Vortex
1 Fact or Fiction
Utility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
Land Destruction
1 Blood Moon
1 Ruination
1 Wildfire
1 Destructive Force
Theft
1 Gilded Drake
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Order of Succession
1 Treachery
1 Bribery
1 Jace, the Mind sculptor
1 jace, architect of thought
1 Future Sight
1 Tamiyo, The moon Sage
Lands - 41
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Command Tower
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Boseiju, who shelters all
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 lonely sandbar
15 Island
7 Mountain
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Now onto some minor points. What are your thoughts on Flame Slash over Skred w/ snow lands? If I had to pick one, I'd pick Skred, since you only really need to deal 2-3 damage in the early game to kill any relevant early threat, making it on par with Flame Slash in that aspect. There's also instant speed and the potential to kill Titans in the mid-late game.
I've tested Destructive Force and it's pretty subpar, especially for my deck which aims to get Wildfire out by turn 5 (I believe turn 4-5 is the optimal time to resolve Wildfire). I'd either run the 2nd Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, or Jokulhaups which is actually the strongest sweeper (since it can shut down opposing mana rocks. Your deck doesn't run any ramp either, so there's really no drawback to playing Jokulhaups then). Devastation is also much better than Destructive Force. With Keranos out it's generally better that no players have any land than both players have two lands each on the field.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Skred does seem pretty good. At the moment I've been using flame slash in order to kill turn 2 brimaz, along with turn 3 Heros of bladehold. Sometimes you need the answer a few turns earlier and you don't always have all basics. For me slags has been more consistent early game. And I counter Titans often enough.
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Careful Consideration is the card you were thinking of, btw.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I'm also really liking zgana's Quiet Speculation package with Squee, Goblin Nabob and looters (Merfolk Looter, Thought Courier, Enclave Cryptologist, Dack Fayden). It will help me lower the redundancy of certain cards as Anger of the Gods, Burning of Xinye etc, and also make it easier to filter for more relevant cards in harder matchups such as control mirrors. I don't think my deck can utilise the looter creatures too well due to my abundant boardwipe, but I could at least try Faithless Looting, Flash of Insight, Mystic Retrieval and Think Twice with Quiet Speculation and Compulsive Research, to give me a source of card advantage and filtering in control matchups.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
This is correct. if he isn't a critter when Reweave is cast, then Reweave isn't going to fetch out a critter.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Sure would help if Burning Wish was playable...
It also doesn't help that Omni, unlike Dream Halls only lets me cast from my hand, so I can't do alternative plays such as Reweave Keranos, cast Keranos again for free, then cast Jokulhaups if I don't have a way to tutor for Petals.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
From Gatherer:
Gods have the "creature" card-type regardless of the zone they're in (including the battlefield), so I think Reweave would actually still function. The main trouble is that you'd have to cut ALL your creatures AND enchantments (except for Emmy/Omni) in order to make it effective.
It's a neat idea but it sounds like a bit more trouble than it's worth. :<
Asmira, Holy Avenger (French EDH)
I upload Duel Commander match replays to my YouTube channel
First ruling on the page; "4/1/2005 When Reweave resolves it uses the type(s) that the permanent had right before it was sacrificed". So no, you won't go right into Emrakul unless Keranos is online (at which point I'd argue you don't need to get to Emrakul). While it's certainly possible to trim other enchantments, I don't feel the payoff is worth it - losing Future Sight is hard enough, but losing Treachery? I'm not okay with that.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Ah yeah, you're right! My bad. I assumed it was checking for "card types", not just the "permanent types".
Asmira, Holy Avenger (French EDH)
I upload Duel Commander match replays to my YouTube channel
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
I don't believe control lets such a card resolve, no. Similar to Polymorph, a good control pilot should never allow such a blatant combo card to resolve.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
The benefits of the combo are that it seems difficult to disrupt, since your commander is indestructible, and it fits nicely into a control shell. It also seems like it can go off insanely quick, though it needs a god hand with a lot of mana acceleration to pull off (making it much less effective than, say, oath of druids or hermit druid combo, ad nauseum, etc.). I think the omniscience reweave package is a good idea, but it's probably an orthogonal strategy to the one the deck in the op is trying to achieve. An LD deck doesn't really want to hold counterspells up, because it doesn't want to hold mana back. A storm deck would likely play more as a combo control deck, and thus make room for a lot of counters to help resolve a reweave and go off.