The good thing against stubborn players is that you have proof coming from mtg ruling forums with a lot of backing and explanation... and what do they have? Nothing to counteract that argument. So it's your win.
Thread derail, but mainly I don't want to pay wizards for cards twice. I already bought the cardboard version, you're telling me I need to shell out more cash to get the list online? No thanks.
Except in the case of a few cards (Force of Will, Rishadan Port, Lion's Eye Diamond and a few other obscurities with demand) cards are vastly cheaper online than off. Nevertheless though, I understand your point as well. It took me a while to make the decision to jump in as well.
The good thing against stubborn players is that you have proof coming from mtg ruling forums with a lot of backing and explanation... and what do they have? Nothing to counteract that argument. So it's your win.
Yeah but...I mean, when I want to play cards, I want to play cards. I don't want to argue with some guy who insists on being able to sacrifice his guy to Altar's Reap while it has lethal damage marked on it.
Xenagos has far more late game reach than Radha, and doesn't fold to a couple board wipes like aggro Radha does.
I can understand this point. After I t4'd Damnationed I noticed that I wasn't out of the woods yet when he dropped the commander and an Inkmoth Nexus - then an Inquisition of Kozilek from me that showed the Jokulhaups so I spent most of the game keeping him off RR or 6. He used his commander's pump effect in conjunction with Soul's Majesty to refill his hand, then proceeded to ball out on me - but I Demonic Tutor'd for Toxic Deluge for X = 2 but that still didn't help - he played Nissa Revane to get the Chosen dude (I actually had to Treachery it so he'd stop bashing me in the face for four).
It was interesting that my Gilded Drake seemed like a bad card in conjunction with Xenagos. All in all, it was a fascinating case study for me to examine and I liked the way it forced me to play differently. So I guess that's a good thing for the metagame.
edit: If any of y'all is curious what I was playing specifically against the Xenagos decks, check the Bolas link in my sig. Hope that helps y'all with your own deckbuilding choices.
Looking over your Bolas list, I can see why you've found Xenagos to be sub par. Your list is exactly the archetype this deck has problems with. I'd venture to say my list may do better than those you've played given its got a better than even(probably 60-70% chance)of bringing 30+ damage by turn 5, which means your answers absolutely need to be in your opening hand or first couple of topdecks. Because you've got lots of answers, the chances of that happening are fairly good, but I'd venture to say those chances go down as the speed of the opponents deck goes up, at least thats been my experience against heavy board and stack control. If they don't have the answer and my hand is fast, I can get there, if my hand is slow or they have the answer, I only get there if I hit something like Gaea's revenge.
Xenagos has far more late game reach than Radha, and doesn't fold to a couple board wipes like aggro Radha does.
I can understand this point. After I t4'd Damnationed I noticed that I wasn't out of the woods yet when he dropped the commander and an Inkmoth Nexus - then an Inquisition of Kozilek from me that showed the Jokulhaups so I spent most of the game keeping him off RR or 6. He used his commander's pump effect in conjunction with Soul's Majesty to refill his hand, then proceeded to ball out on me - but I Demonic Tutor'd for Toxic Deluge for X = 2 but that still didn't help - he played Nissa Revane to get the Chosen dude (I actually had to Treachery it so he'd stop bashing me in the face for four).
It was interesting that my Gilded Drake seemed like a bad card in conjunction with Xenagos. All in all, it was a fascinating case study for me to examine and I liked the way it forced me to play differently. So I guess that's a good thing for the metagame.
edit: If any of y'all is curious what I was playing specifically against the Xenagos decks, check the Bolas link in my sig. Hope that helps y'all with your own deckbuilding choices.
Looking over your Bolas list, I can see why you've found Xenagos to be sub par. Your list is exactly the archetype this deck has problems with. I'd venture to say my list may do better than those you've played given its got a better than even(probably 60-70% chance)of bringing 30+ damage by turn 5, which means your answers absolutely need to be in your opening hand or first couple of topdecks. Because you've got lots of answers, the chances of that happening are fairly good, but I'd venture to say those chances go down as the speed of the opponents deck goes up, at least thats been my experience against heavy board and stack control. If they don't have the answer and my hand is fast, I can get there, if my hand is slow or they have the answer, I only get there if I hit something like Gaea's revenge.
Against heavy control task #1 is to tutor Thrun or Gaea's revenge and stomp as quickly as possible with them. Definitely a bad match though. Tabernacle is fortunately banned under usual duelcommander rules and it'd be another terrible hoser for me. Maze of ith is pretty bad for me by itself.
Toxic deluge has been the biggest problem I've seen yet, Damnation/BSZ are usually a little slow to prevent at least 1 swing, which means all I need is 1 more swing (2 swings is almost always all she wrote with the number of fat creatures I am doubling) and with haste, I can usually get to that second swing. It destorys me if I get t3 toxic deluge for 5 as it takes too long to set back up and connect twice.
Against heavy control task #1 is to tutor Thrun or Gaea's revenge and stomp as quickly as possible with them. Definitely a bad match though. Tabernacle is fortunately banned under usual duelcommander rules and it'd be another terrible hoser for me. Maze of ith is pretty bad for me by itself.
Toxic deluge has been the biggest problem I've seen yet, Damnation/BSZ are usually a little slow to prevent at least 1 swing, which means all I need is 1 more swing (2 swings is almost always all she wrote with the number of fat creatures I am doubling) and with haste, I can usually get to that second swing. It destorys me if I get t3 toxic deluge for 5 as it takes too long to set back up and connect twice.
Toxic is certainly a powerhouse card. Black Sun is slower, I can't argue that. Even at the minimum three mana, I can Zenith for 1 - which is enough to take out mana dorks not named Gyre Sage or Sylvan Caryatid. Xenagos is started to scare me a bit more after this discussion here - indestructible haste outlet is pretty rough (the pump is gravy, to me, it's the "free" haste every turn that is starting to put me on alert).
Totally agree Tabernacle is completely unfair. But playing on MODO means accepting it or losing to it - so I've embraced it. Though it's awkward with making Bolas cost 1UBR on my upkeep though. Still, if I'm at the stage where I'm playing Bolas, I likely don't care about tying up four mana haha.
Yeah. With Xenagos, you have to hit his hand asap and/or hitting his permanents. Hand disruptions hurts more to Xenagos than his dorks since they can be dealt with a Damnation or two.
Yeah, I've found the mana dorks to be sub ideal ramp simply because wipes can blow it out, but unfortunately there are very few non-creature based turn 1 ramps (Wild growth, Utopia Sprawl) so in order to get a good likelihood we'll hit t3 Xenagos it requires using the dorks.
Yeah, I've found the mana dorks to be sub ideal ramp simply because wipes can blow it out, but unfortunately there are very few non-creature based turn 1 ramps (Wild growth, Utopia Sprawl) so in order to get a good likelihood we'll hit t3 Xenagos it requires using the dorks.
It's true. Although I do like the dorks for being much more explosive. Although I guess some of them (the llanowar elves functional reprints) are weaker and should be considered non-essential.
So... I keep going back and forth on Survival of the fittest and Sylvan tutor. On the one hand, if the game goes longer than my plan A, being able to tutor the silver bullet to answer my opponents board position or get through without them being able to answer is good, but on the other hand, I hate to see it early game if plan A is working, because it dilutes my speed/early power. Thoughts?
I almost forgot to mention, I dropped Cyclops Gladiator in favor of Gaea's Revenge, I found 3 red to be a pretty high barrier. 1-2 is okay, but 3 red is just too much, and Gaea's Revenge is just such a beating against control decks.
So... I keep going back and forth on Survival of the fittest and Sylvan tutor. On the one hand, if the game goes longer than my plan A, being able to tutor the silver bullet to answer my opponents board position or get through without them being able to answer is good, but on the other hand, I hate to see it early game if plan A is working, because it dilutes my speed/early power. Thoughts?
I almost forgot to mention, I dropped Cyclops Gladiator in favor of Gaea's Revenge, I found 3 red to be a pretty high barrier. 1-2 is okay, but 3 red is just too much, and Gaea's Revenge is just such a beating against control decks.
I would say you don't need Sylvan (and Worldly is way better) and you should absolutely be playing Survival - it just wins games, man. Imagine, would you play a card that gave the following text to all of your critters "G, Discard ~: Search your library for a creature card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards." I know I would.
So... I keep going back and forth on Survival of the fittest and Sylvan tutor. On the one hand, if the game goes longer than my plan A, being able to tutor the silver bullet to answer my opponents board position or get through without them being able to answer is good, but on the other hand, I hate to see it early game if plan A is working, because it dilutes my speed/early power. Thoughts?
I almost forgot to mention, I dropped Cyclops Gladiator in favor of Gaea's Revenge, I found 3 red to be a pretty high barrier. 1-2 is okay, but 3 red is just too much, and Gaea's Revenge is just such a beating against control decks.
Summoner's Pact is way better than Sylvan Tutor, any reason you aren't running that?
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
I'm currently working on building a shell of this deck - Invigorate seems to help solve the Toxic Deluge problem as well as provide a nice power boost against an unprepared opponent. Thoughts?
I'm currently working on building a shell of this deck - Invigorate seems to help solve the Toxic Deluge problem as well as provide a nice power boost against an unprepared opponent. Thoughts?
I'm not really sure how this one pump spell prevents getting blown out by a board wipe. Yeah it'll save one dude, but you're still out the rest of your team.
1 dude is better than no dudes. Especially if Xenagod is a creature when the deluge hits. And it's not like its just there for that anyway - getting a net +8 on swing (5 if cast for free) isn't that bad of a deal.
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Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Except in the case of a few cards (Force of Will, Rishadan Port, Lion's Eye Diamond and a few other obscurities with demand) cards are vastly cheaper online than off. Nevertheless though, I understand your point as well. It took me a while to make the decision to jump in as well.
Yeah but...I mean, when I want to play cards, I want to play cards. I don't want to argue with some guy who insists on being able to sacrifice his guy to Altar's Reap while it has lethal damage marked on it.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Looking over your Bolas list, I can see why you've found Xenagos to be sub par. Your list is exactly the archetype this deck has problems with. I'd venture to say my list may do better than those you've played given its got a better than even(probably 60-70% chance)of bringing 30+ damage by turn 5, which means your answers absolutely need to be in your opening hand or first couple of topdecks. Because you've got lots of answers, the chances of that happening are fairly good, but I'd venture to say those chances go down as the speed of the opponents deck goes up, at least thats been my experience against heavy board and stack control. If they don't have the answer and my hand is fast, I can get there, if my hand is slow or they have the answer, I only get there if I hit something like Gaea's revenge.
Thanks. Yeah I'd imagine versus a deck like yours I'm looking for t3 Electrolyze to tempo you, or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale to put a halt on your aggro. My best cards versus you are also likely Black Sun's Zenith in conjunction with Dust Bowl on your important lands.
Ooph. There's a card that's always a beating against me. Gaea's Revenge. I'm so glad I don't see it often.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Toxic deluge has been the biggest problem I've seen yet, Damnation/BSZ are usually a little slow to prevent at least 1 swing, which means all I need is 1 more swing (2 swings is almost always all she wrote with the number of fat creatures I am doubling) and with haste, I can usually get to that second swing. It destorys me if I get t3 toxic deluge for 5 as it takes too long to set back up and connect twice.
Toxic is certainly a powerhouse card. Black Sun is slower, I can't argue that. Even at the minimum three mana, I can Zenith for 1 - which is enough to take out mana dorks not named Gyre Sage or Sylvan Caryatid. Xenagos is started to scare me a bit more after this discussion here - indestructible haste outlet is pretty rough (the pump is gravy, to me, it's the "free" haste every turn that is starting to put me on alert).
Totally agree Tabernacle is completely unfair. But playing on MODO means accepting it or losing to it - so I've embraced it. Though it's awkward with making Bolas cost 1UBR on my upkeep though. Still, if I'm at the stage where I'm playing Bolas, I likely don't care about tying up four mana haha.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
It's true. Although I do like the dorks for being much more explosive. Although I guess some of them (the llanowar elves functional reprints) are weaker and should be considered non-essential.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I almost forgot to mention, I dropped Cyclops Gladiator in favor of Gaea's Revenge, I found 3 red to be a pretty high barrier. 1-2 is okay, but 3 red is just too much, and Gaea's Revenge is just such a beating against control decks.
I would say you don't need Sylvan (and Worldly is way better) and you should absolutely be playing Survival - it just wins games, man. Imagine, would you play a card that gave the following text to all of your critters "G, Discard ~: Search your library for a creature card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards." I know I would.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Summoner's Pact is way better than Sylvan Tutor, any reason you aren't running that?
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
I'm not really sure how this one pump spell prevents getting blown out by a board wipe. Yeah it'll save one dude, but you're still out the rest of your team.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.