I never liked AEtherling because it's heavy mana (you need 4UUU and if they had two removals you lose it anyway. Prog. Sphinx just asks you pitch something for 0). I can play it sooner and get there as well. I also play Runechanter's Pike and Dragonmaster Outcast as well, and I'm not running Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time. (I haven't played since THS though). I play Intuition as well, and I don't play the looters as they become collateral damage in my sweepers, although I am still rocking Kher Keep and Riptide Laboratory in addition to Desolate Lighthouse. I guess you'd call it a more "classic" build?
Additionally, I've found my "big dumb finisher" of choice to be Stormtide Leviathan and it's Moat plus free colour fixing passive effect.
Yea I might give her like third chance instead of aetherling
Leviathan is intereting but its very easy to remove IMO for 8 mana. And it works against blood moon efects (if you play vs UXX deck)
Right, it has no inherent protections. But having a Moat effect on a finisher is fairly handy (was actually relevant vs a Doran deck some time ago). He got t4 Ruination'd but didn't scoop because we're in g3. I'm trying to dig for a finish and he rips a Loxodon Smiter. I hit my eighth land, windmill Stormtide (with FoW backup no less) and that shut him out.
But yes it negates some of the benefit to playing Moons vs XU. On the other hand, it makes all of our mountains into Volcanic Island. I like that.
So after realizing that 90% of my local meta is playing 3+ color decks with expensive manbases, I'm considering switching over to this deck for its moon/ruination goodness. I really like fsecco's list and am using that as a base (I tend enjoy more interactive, durdly control decks more than straight up draw-go control).
Hoping anyone with more experience with the deck might be able to address a few questions:
- What is the role izzet staticaster? The applications against something like prossh or mana dorks are obvious, but how often does this become a dead draw?
Staticaster is awesome against Elfball decks. It's there mainly to contain that, Prossh, Brimaz and Clique. It always have uses, is a Wizard and has 3 thoughness so you can draw 2 cards per turn with it and Nin online - last option is he's Force of Will fodder. I love it.
- What would you swap out for treasure cruise and dig through time? Would these be too anti-synergistic with the flashback theme? They are just so potent... Maybe ancestral vision and think twice? The former can be dead late game and the latter is cute with looting and quiet speculation, but maybe not as strong.
I'd never ever take Ancestral Vision out. It's just too good (and fetchable by Tolaria West). I'd take Flash of Insight and Think Twice for Cruise/Dig. The flashback theme isn't that important to the gameplan. It's mostly diversion tactics that, left unchecked, will generate CA.
- In relation to the previous discussion regarding circular logic, I agree it is strong in a looter scenario, though it occurs to me we only have 4 cards that allow instant speed discard (enclave cryptologist,thought courier/merfolk looter, thirst for knowledge and izzet charm). Now when you can pull it off, it would be quite spectacular (U: draw a card, counter target spell unless controller pays N), I just question how often that will actually occur.
I don't like Circular Logic and would play Pact of Negation and maybe even Foil before it (Pact is also fetchable with Tolaria West). Exclude feels fine too, although I don't like it that much
- Is Wasteland worth playing? I know it gets hit by our ruination (moon wouldn't be much of a problem), but it can add some resource denial pressure and takes care of any troublesome cavern of souls that drop after ruination.
Wasteland is really important. Sometimes you don't get your 3 non-basic hate spells that early. Gaea's Cradle and specially Boseiju, Who Shelters All can REALLY hurt you. So leave it in
Also, some of your non-basics are suspect. I feel like a Nin deck should only have basics, fetches and Wasteland, with the total number of lands being around 42-44. That's what's common among most of these decks that T8 anyway. I thought about putting in Cavern, but then I realised (and by realised, I mean "was pointed out to me by better players) the main point of Nin is to make your opponent choose between messing up their game plan (by countering/killing her) or letting you outdraw them. So letting her get countered is fine, because they've spent a card from their hand, while you haven't. Classic card advantage.
I feel you could take Sulfur Falls out if you think you have too many non-basics. But I myself always found that the problem here is the early game. So having more ways to have both colors early game is important to me. I'd NEVER, EVER take out Volcanic Island and Steam Vents, since you need your fetches to be able to get you UR, and you almost always need it twice. About Cavern of Souls, I find if extremely usefull. You name Wizard and it let's you play Nin, Teferi, Venser, Clique, Snapcaster and the looters without worries. But the reason I wouldn't take it out is mainly because of Magus of the Moon. Being able to drop an uncounterable Moon effect is the reason this deck can beat things like Narset. More than once have I transmuted Tolaria West to find Cavern just to drop Magus safely. And if you draw Cavern after having Magus/Blood Moon in play, then well, you're probably already winning :P.
You just need to balance your number of basic islands in order to have blue always. And also think deeply how to break your fetches - you break the "red-only" fetches first, getting duals, and leave the fetches that have access to blue to fetch basic islands.
Secondly, you're running Tormod's Crypt, but no Trinket Mage. That's almost the entire point of running crypt over something like Relic, which can otherwise draw you a card.
That was a carry over from fsecco's list as a tutor target for tolaria west, though that has been on my chopping block. relic of progenitus would NOT be good in this list due to the amount of flashback and delve this deck contains. You would shoot yourself in the foot. A better candidates would be phyrexian furnace.
Crypt is there because it's tutorable with Tolaria West, yes. Also Tolaria West fetches EE, Ancestral Vision, Wasteland and Cavern of Souls. So Crypt is only good if you pack the Tolaria West package. Trinket Mage could actually be awesome too, since if fetches EE, Crypt and Pithing Needle - and is a Wizard so can be safely dropped via Cavern.
sensei's divining top is definitely playable, especially if we have lots of fetches. crucible of worlds unbanning doesn't really affect us that much, we don't have enough nonbasics for wasteland shenanigans to be a threat and any combo is still shut down by blod moon, though it makes it easier to recover from ruination.
winter orb's unbanning kinda makes me want to play GAAIV, that would just be so annoying.
I was talking about crucible being played against us. Didn't really think of it for our deck, since we don't tend to play nonbasics, but I had forgotten about fetches. Could have a place in the deck against slower matchups.
So I got my desktop going, and now I can play on MODO again. So I took this screen cap because, this is why I don't (re: am not allowed by any of my friends >_>) to play U.
EDIT: As a note, I'm beginning to remember how troll-y this deck is. >_>
I played this deck for a long while, and eventually had to stop because the Tasigur matchup was neigh unwinnable, unfortunately. Izzet is probably my favorite color combination.
If you play the matchup well, your chances increase. Your only/best bet is to try to steal tasigur with treachery/guilded drake/order of succession. The problem is that Tasigur can easy cast him for 1 mana and leave up mana for 1-2 counter spells. And even if you backflip through all those hoops, its pretty easy for him to just kill tasigur and play him again next turn, often again for 1 mana.
I don't agree with that at all, having that tutor is so crucial. Finds your sweepers, order of succession, cruise, and ruination. It's not as strong as mystical tutor, but not being as good as a card that is banned in legacy isn't a good reason to run a card. Having that flexibility is something you need to improve the consistency of the deck. Most of the time mystical tutor was finding sorcerers anyways.
I don't agree with that at all, having that tutor is so crucial. Finds your sweepers, order of succession, cruise, and ruination. It's not as strong as mystical tutor, but not being as good as a card that is banned in legacy isn't a good reason to run a card. Having that flexibility is something you need to improve the consistency of the deck. Most of the time mystical tutor was finding sorcerers anyways.
The reason Mystical was so good was because it did what you're describing above, as well as found Force backup or similar to protect a winning boardstate. And it did this at instant speed. To imply that doing this on your turn, and finding less than Mystical did, is just as good and deserving of a slot, is wrong. IMHO, of course.
When I play personal tutor, it feels like I'm playing a fair version of mystical tutor. It is very clearly not as strong, but this is a 100 card singleton format, decks need tutors like this to improve consistency, and to help find the spells you need WHEN you need them. Especially when you are playing a control deck that doesn't have access to demonic tutor. I can see the argument better in tas, although I still run personal tutor in my list, but a deck like this with no other access to tutors, I would say its a requirement.
When I play personal tutor, it feels like I'm playing a fair version of mystical tutor. It is very clearly not as strong, but this is a 100 card singleton format, decks need tutors like this to improve consistency, and to help find the spells you need WHEN you need them. Especially when you are playing a control deck that doesn't have access to demonic tutor. I can see the argument better in tas, although I still run personal tutor in my list, but a deck like this with no other access to tutors, I would say its a requirement.
From my understanding, some have been talking about Long Term Plans over Mystical, under the logic of it being an instant and Nin can draw into it fairly easily.
I'm not sure I agree with that decision either. I guess what I'm saying is, I might just play more draw/loot effects rather than either Personal or LTP. But then when I play Nin, I'm not looking for specific cards - my aim is to stop you from doing what you want, and then win later when I have you wiped out.
Additionally, I've found my "big dumb finisher" of choice to be Stormtide Leviathan and it's Moat plus free colour fixing passive effect.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Right, it has no inherent protections. But having a Moat effect on a finisher is fairly handy (was actually relevant vs a Doran deck some time ago). He got t4 Ruination'd but didn't scoop because we're in g3. I'm trying to dig for a finish and he rips a Loxodon Smiter. I hit my eighth land, windmill Stormtide (with FoW backup no less) and that shut him out.
But yes it negates some of the benefit to playing Moons vs XU. On the other hand, it makes all of our mountains into Volcanic Island. I like that.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Staticaster is awesome against Elfball decks. It's there mainly to contain that, Prossh, Brimaz and Clique. It always have uses, is a Wizard and has 3 thoughness so you can draw 2 cards per turn with it and Nin online - last option is he's Force of Will fodder. I love it.
I'd never ever take Ancestral Vision out. It's just too good (and fetchable by Tolaria West). I'd take Flash of Insight and Think Twice for Cruise/Dig. The flashback theme isn't that important to the gameplan. It's mostly diversion tactics that, left unchecked, will generate CA.
I don't like Circular Logic and would play Pact of Negation and maybe even Foil before it (Pact is also fetchable with Tolaria West). Exclude feels fine too, although I don't like it that much
Wasteland is really important. Sometimes you don't get your 3 non-basic hate spells that early. Gaea's Cradle and specially Boseiju, Who Shelters All can REALLY hurt you. So leave it in
I feel you could take Sulfur Falls out if you think you have too many non-basics. But I myself always found that the problem here is the early game. So having more ways to have both colors early game is important to me. I'd NEVER, EVER take out Volcanic Island and Steam Vents, since you need your fetches to be able to get you UR, and you almost always need it twice. About Cavern of Souls, I find if extremely usefull. You name Wizard and it let's you play Nin, Teferi, Venser, Clique, Snapcaster and the looters without worries. But the reason I wouldn't take it out is mainly because of Magus of the Moon. Being able to drop an uncounterable Moon effect is the reason this deck can beat things like Narset. More than once have I transmuted Tolaria West to find Cavern just to drop Magus safely. And if you draw Cavern after having Magus/Blood Moon in play, then well, you're probably already winning :P.
You just need to balance your number of basic islands in order to have blue always. And also think deeply how to break your fetches - you break the "red-only" fetches first, getting duals, and leave the fetches that have access to blue to fetch basic islands.
Crypt is there because it's tutorable with Tolaria West, yes. Also Tolaria West fetches EE, Ancestral Vision, Wasteland and Cavern of Souls. So Crypt is only good if you pack the Tolaria West package. Trinket Mage could actually be awesome too, since if fetches EE, Crypt and Pithing Needle - and is a Wizard so can be safely dropped via Cavern.
winter orb's unbanning kinda makes me want to play GAAIV, that would just be so annoying.
EDIT: As a note, I'm beginning to remember how troll-y this deck is. >_>
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
The reason Mystical was so good was because it did what you're describing above, as well as found Force backup or similar to protect a winning boardstate. And it did this at instant speed. To imply that doing this on your turn, and finding less than Mystical did, is just as good and deserving of a slot, is wrong. IMHO, of course.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
From my understanding, some have been talking about Long Term Plans over Mystical, under the logic of it being an instant and Nin can draw into it fairly easily.
I'm not sure I agree with that decision either. I guess what I'm saying is, I might just play more draw/loot effects rather than either Personal or LTP. But then when I play Nin, I'm not looking for specific cards - my aim is to stop you from doing what you want, and then win later when I have you wiped out.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.