Nah, dont. He's a pretty respectable win con. Being able to protect him for 0 mana, having evasion, & a massive Scry 3 is just too good. He's also a very strong Nin target. Although I don't have a TNN myself (if I did, I would play him alongside Prog. Sphinx anyway).
any thoughts as to why you're not playing with the snow engine? scrying sheets is really strong. 2: draw a card if the top card of your library is a land. is just plain good.
any thoughts as to why you're not playing with the snow engine? scrying sheets is really strong. 2: draw a card if the top card of your library is a land. is just plain good.
No it's not, lol. You're spending an effective three (you tap Sheets to activate) for a maybe "draw a card". You'd have a 40% chance of drawing a card, if your 40 lands were all snow basics. But they're not. Realistically if you're on 21 basics (reasonable after figuring for duals, fetches, utility) then that's a 21% at best of drawing an extra land if you happen to have Sheets out and you have three mana up not doing anything on an opponent's end step. That's the best case, meaning all your basics are still in your deck. Now for every basic that is on the board or in your hand, that percentage goes down even more.
Then you see your commander is just plain better at drawing cards than this clunky "snow engine".
I'm running 33 basics + mouth of ronom, making the count fairly respectable. Of course nin is better at drawing cards, but there are situations where she's not in play, or you don't or can't play her. In those cases having a repeatable, fairly cheap source of card draw is rather nice. In the few games that I've drawn it, I've found it to be rather useful. Plus it enables skred, which is amazing.
I'm running 33 basics + mouth of ronom, making the count fairly respectable. Of course nin is better at drawing cards, but there are situations where she's not in play, or you don't or can't play her. In those cases having a repeatable, fairly cheap source of card draw is rather nice. In the few games that I've drawn it, I've found it to be rather useful. Plus it enables skred, which is amazing.
Using bad or suboptimal situations to explain why a suboptimal card isn't as terrible as it realistically is, isn't exactly a redeeming quality for said bad or suboptimal card.
It's still a colourless land, is bad vs your own Ruination/Moon, and it doesn't help cast Counterspell on t2, or Nin at all. That's far too many strikes against something for such a marginal effect. If draw is really what you want, get Desolate Lighthouse.
I play both. I may stop playing Quiet Spec if I take out Flash of Insight and Think Twice like you did. But as of now, being able to pay 2 to shove 3 CA cards into the graveyard is just awesome. I can't count how many games I got out with that. I even Mystical'd for a Quiet Spec once.
About Bonfire, why take it out? It's always a bomb for me.
ANother nonbasic which doesnt work under moon efects is not what I want. I also play blue so there is enough card drawing spells so this one is unnecessary.
You said youre running both of those snow lands. Why? Dont you have enough card draw or removal?
Mind sharing the list with us?
My list is on the previous page with a few tweaks (venser over boomerang, cyclonic rift over ral, dissolve over crumple)I'm still trying to find a spot for order of succession and keranos, and it will probably be turn/burn that is cut. I'm running 33 snow basics for access to skred, which is utterly amazing, and 3 utility nonbasics (sheets, lighthouse and mouth of ronom) and some fetches. If it weren't a land I would totally agree that it's not very good, but the fact remains that it's CA on a land. Since I want to be playing at least 40, the only thing I would cut it for is another either another island or fetch. I've found that in the cases that I have drawn it, it's fairly useful.
Although Aetherling isn't quite as bad as Prognostic Sphinx, both of these cards are terrible win conditions. Same goes for Frost Titan. Where's the Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, and Dragonmaster Outcast? Actually, even Chasm Skulker is pretty good as a win condition. But these durdly creatures that you are forced to tap out for are reeeeaaaalllly bad. Nin can control the lategame just fine, with sheer card advantage. It's more sensible for the deck to present cheap wincons that come out early, deal with early threats, and eventually close out the game.
And I can't tell if Mystic Retrieval is a joke or not... No competitive decklist includes this card or would ever want to. It's both slow and useless against graveyard hate. And it's a sorcery.
On another note, Sudden Demise and Anger of the Gods seem like really good cards at the moment. However, I think Nin's biggest problem is dealing with Black/Green/White decks, like Anafenza and Doran. I honestly think Combust may have a place in the current meta.
SkankStar, not saying it's always a good plan, but Mystical Retrival is not a bad card, and has been played in some Nin decks that have gotten good results, and was also played in Wafo's recent Maelstrom Wanderer to good effect. It's definitely not the kind of card you just throw in without thinking about it, but in the right deck it can do some cool stuff.
I agree with the rest of your post though, especially for the creatures.
Maelstrom Wanderer is a tapout ramp deck with Time Warp and board wipe effects. Of course Mystical Retrieval is good there.
Nin does not need a four mana sorcery to regrowth a spell. It's a bad waste of a turn. What do you so desperately need to cast again that it could potentially cost you the game because you tapped out? If the game is going your way already, you don't need to get anything back. And if it isn't going well, getting back a counterspell isn't going to help you.
I dont know , grim lavamancer doesnt seem like a win con to me. I will try the pyromancer and outcast but they seem very fragile. Also they doesnt realy cooperate with sweepers, especialy lavamancer.
Does Nin cooperate with sweepers? Use them the same way you would Nin with a Pyroclasm in your hand. Wait.
Dragonmaster Outcast is an insane win condition because it only costs one mana. It was WAY easier to protect than a six mana spell and your opponent doesn't get to turn around and win on you while you're tapped out.
Also you can shoot dragons for 4 cards with Nin and not lose them.
Pyromancer is insane. Also provides targets for Nin.
I see your point, gonna try them when I get them (I think Im obsessed with wincons since sometimes the games go for much longer than needed)
edit: and what about tarland?
Young Pyromancer is not actually that good. Requires quite a lot of upkeep for a somewhat paltry effect. Of course, sometimes it's really good, but overall, Dragonmaster Outcast is the best out of the two.
What upkeep? You cast spells (which is what Nin decks do) and get a win condition. The tokens also interact favorably with Nin's draw ability by providing fodder.
Some of the quickest Nin games I've played as and against were Young Pyromancer on turn 2 with Daze/etc backup. Every turn thereafter I countered/removed whatever my opponent played and they fell in a few turns to the tokens. Young Pyromancer is incredible.
Swookums, I don't think Boomerang --> Venser, Shaper Savant is a good idea, as Boomerang's strength is to bounce an early land to create tempo on your opponent.
Although Aetherling isn't quite as bad as Prognostic Sphinx, both of these cards are terrible win conditions. Same goes for Frost Titan. Where's the Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, and Dragonmaster Outcast? Actually, even Chasm Skulker is pretty good as a win condition. But these durdly creatures that you are forced to tap out for are reeeeaaaalllly bad. Nin can control the lategame just fine, with sheer card advantage. It's more sensible for the deck to present cheap wincons that come out early, deal with early threats, and eventually close out the game.
I'm not really an AEtherling fan, nor am I big on the Titan either, but Sphinx is rather reliable. You play it, protect it for 0, and let it do it's thing. You don't full tap for it on t5 (you're not ready to finish the game anyway).
My deck also played Stormtide Leviathan. Cute, and more pet card than efficient, but the pseudo Moat plus half colour fixing was relevant. You don't want to play it until t10 ideally, but Nin plays to the super late anyway so I don't see that as a problem.
My win-cons are TNN, Chasm Skulker, Consecrated Sphinx, Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius (will be a Keranos once I get it) and small beats. Teferi, Venser, Clique and Magus of the Moon all punch your opponent. I never felt I needed a "big win-con" with this deck. Niv, Keranos and C Sphinx are all card advantage engines that can be really efficient.
I used to play Master of Waves, but felt it was sub-par and traded it for a Dead/Gone
Prognostic Sphinx looks fine, but I wouldn't play it instead of a Niv-Mizzet.
And I can't tell if Mystic Retrieval is a joke or not... No competitive decklist includes this card or would ever want to. It's both slow and useless against graveyard hate. And it's a sorcery.
Nin does not need a four mana sorcery to regrowth a spell. It's a bad waste of a turn. What do you so desperately need to cast again that it could potentially cost you the game because you tapped out? If the game is going your way already, you don't need to get anything back. And if it isn't going well, getting back a counterspell isn't going to help you.
I don't really know why you think this is so bad. Retrieval for Dig, for a mass removal spell or even for something like Shattering Spree against artifact-heavy Maelstroms is a bomb. It allows you to take a game you're a little in front and seal them completely. It also makes Intuition MUCH better, since you can get it + 2 spells and the opponent has basically no choice. All I can tell from your posts is that you haven't played the card.
My deck also played Stormtide Leviathan. Cute, and more pet card than efficient, but the pseudo Moat plus half colour fixing was relevant. You don't want to play it until t10 ideally, but Nin plays to the super late anyway so I don't see that as a problem.
I play Treasure Cruise and Dig in Wydwen with Pike and it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Pike isn't giving +10 like it used to, but it still gives +6. With fetches, planeswalkers, and some creatures and enchantments, you can delve away enough to not hurt too much. I've cruised on turn 5 (delving 7), Dig'd three turns later, and still had a Pike on +5 to close out the game the following turn. Cantrips and delving the right cards adds up big-time.
The reason why I'm so critical when it comes to Nin decklists is because I honestly feel like it's my hardest match-up in all of French/Duel Commander. Nin just goes over the top of any other blue deck (in terms of cards) and has pyroclasm effects to beat small creature decks, which puts it in a great meta position. I think it's a really strong deck that's only weak to Geist, Graveyard decks, and Doran/Anafenza. I also feel like this is not a deck where you ever play big scary threats. Those cards are just so bad to draw before turn 8, and it's not like you have a way to tutor for them. Nin should have a low curve, be efficient with its mana, and win off of a smattering of cheap and flexible threats.
And to be honest, I think Intuition is pretty bad in Nin. Slow tool-box effects like that can't compare to a density of strong cards, especially when the deck has so much innate card draw.
You're forgetting about Nin's WORST match - Griselbrand (it's ~28% winrate for you at-best). Look back a few pages, you'll see the frustration Hruen/HipsterWhale expressed with it. And that particular matchup hasn't gotten any better.
Swookums, I don't think Boomerang --> Venser, Shaper Savant is a good idea, as Boomerang's strength is to bounce an early land to create tempo on your opponent.
but we're not a tempo deck. Since we're playing for the late game anyways isn't the added flexibility of being able to stall out a big spell worth it?
I'm not really an AEtherling fan, nor am I big on the Titan either, but Sphinx is rather reliable. You play it, protect it for 0, and let it do it's thing. You don't full tap for it on t5 (you're not ready to finish the game anyway).
aetherlings strengths are that it's a rather fast clock (albeit a mana intensive one) and that it never dies ever. if you play it with just 2 extra mana available the only option they have is have to give up massive CA to deal with it.
aetherlings strengths are that it's a rather fast clock (albeit a mana intensive one) and that it never dies ever. if you play it with just 2 extra mana available the only option they have is have to give up massive CA to deal with it.
It's still seven mana (or eight, sometimes) for a threat that doesn't produce CA on it's own, and still requires mana/turn to be protected which leads to "stock mana" if you don't have something to cast on an opponent's end step. Agree to disagree?
I still play a looter version of Nin. I feel it works quite well with Intuition, Quiet Speculation and Squee. The number of cards I drew from Squee alone is impressive. Intuition for Sudden Demise, Squee, Mystic Retrieval always helped me against aggro.
Now, because I'm playing a looter version, Bonfire and Sudden Demise are crucial, since they don't kill my creatures.
I never played against Griselbrand, but if that was strong in my meta I'd add Clever Impersonator and maybe even Dack's Duplicate. Coupled with Pithing Needle that could be very hard for Grisel to answer. They almost always play Grisel and tap out. You could follow with a Clone and have mana to 1-2 counters and draw 7-14 cards and maybe even hit Needle right there. I feel it should be fine even if they manage to take out your Grisel.
Sure. It's a list I haven't fooled with in a few months, since I've been playing Merieke and Daretti since then.
Niv-Mizzet should be a Keranos, and I'm still trying to fit Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise. The most obvious slots would be Flash of Insight and Ancestral Vision, but maybe Personal Tutor and Think Twice are better options to take out. I've been playing Long-Term Plans instead of Personal Tutor for a while and it feels great, although I don't know if it's that much better...
About the delve cards, I'm still no sure if I should add that much graveyard reliance on a deck that already plays the graveyard. If you have an opposing Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace with the deck as it is, you're mostly fine. If you add another 2 cards that depend on the graveyard to function, then maybe it's too much. I'm not sure yet.
I never played against Griselbrand, but if that was strong in my meta I'd add Clever Impersonator and maybe even Dack's Duplicate. Coupled with Pithing Needle that could be very hard for Grisel to answer. They almost always play Grisel and tap out. You could follow with a Clone and have mana to 1-2 counters and draw 7-14 cards and maybe even hit Needle right there. I feel it should be fine even if they manage to take out your Grisel.
I believe you're underselling what Mono-B is capable of. Between disruption and Cavern, you won't counter the Demon, and playing Clones for him isn't effective because he still gets to draw first. Even if you drew into Needle in your situation, they're still gonna draw in response, and that's not good for you at all (indeed, draw28 will win the game).
At the same time, you can't sit back because they will grind your hand out with the plethora of disruption they get, you won't keep be able to untap with Nin with all the removal they get, and it just overall is a fairly miserable experience. It's like playing Gruul aggro vs Esper control.
I'm not doubting Griselbrand is a terrible matchup. Our mana denial doesn't work (except for an early Parallax + Stifle), and there are a lot of creature removal (maybe Aetherling is actually good here?).
Maze of Ith is also a good answer, specially if you play Expedition Map/Tolaria West. Dead/Gone, Bonfire, Keranos/Niv-Mizzet. Also, if you can land an early Jace and start +2 with him, you only need to avoid Hero's Downfall and stuff like that. Once Grisel hits, he'll be bounced back for a loooong time.
That's the beauty of Commander: it's so much variance that you can't tell your opponent will always have that Cavern of Souls right there. Also, Moon effects counter that really well.
As I said, I'll never advocate the matchup isn't hard. It probably really is. But you can't say we don't have a gameplan against Grisel.
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*innocently whistles*
Haha.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
No it's not, lol. You're spending an effective three (you tap Sheets to activate) for a maybe "draw a card". You'd have a 40% chance of drawing a card, if your 40 lands were all snow basics. But they're not. Realistically if you're on 21 basics (reasonable after figuring for duals, fetches, utility) then that's a 21% at best of drawing an extra land if you happen to have Sheets out and you have three mana up not doing anything on an opponent's end step. That's the best case, meaning all your basics are still in your deck. Now for every basic that is on the board or in your hand, that percentage goes down even more.
Then you see your commander is just plain better at drawing cards than this clunky "snow engine".
Scrying Sheets is good...on opposite day.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Using bad or suboptimal situations to explain why a suboptimal card isn't as terrible as it realistically is, isn't exactly a redeeming quality for said bad or suboptimal card.
It's still a colourless land, is bad vs your own Ruination/Moon, and it doesn't help cast Counterspell on t2, or Nin at all. That's far too many strikes against something for such a marginal effect. If draw is really what you want, get Desolate Lighthouse.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I play both. I may stop playing Quiet Spec if I take out Flash of Insight and Think Twice like you did. But as of now, being able to pay 2 to shove 3 CA cards into the graveyard is just awesome. I can't count how many games I got out with that. I even Mystical'd for a Quiet Spec once.
About Bonfire, why take it out? It's always a bomb for me.
My list is on the previous page with a few tweaks (venser over boomerang, cyclonic rift over ral, dissolve over crumple)I'm still trying to find a spot for order of succession and keranos, and it will probably be turn/burn that is cut. I'm running 33 snow basics for access to skred, which is utterly amazing, and 3 utility nonbasics (sheets, lighthouse and mouth of ronom) and some fetches. If it weren't a land I would totally agree that it's not very good, but the fact remains that it's CA on a land. Since I want to be playing at least 40, the only thing I would cut it for is another either another island or fetch. I've found that in the cases that I have drawn it, it's fairly useful.
And I can't tell if Mystic Retrieval is a joke or not... No competitive decklist includes this card or would ever want to. It's both slow and useless against graveyard hate. And it's a sorcery.
On another note, Sudden Demise and Anger of the Gods seem like really good cards at the moment. However, I think Nin's biggest problem is dealing with Black/Green/White decks, like Anafenza and Doran. I honestly think Combust may have a place in the current meta.
Maelstrom Wanderer is a tapout ramp deck with Time Warp and board wipe effects. Of course Mystical Retrieval is good there.
Nin does not need a four mana sorcery to regrowth a spell. It's a bad waste of a turn. What do you so desperately need to cast again that it could potentially cost you the game because you tapped out? If the game is going your way already, you don't need to get anything back. And if it isn't going well, getting back a counterspell isn't going to help you.
Does Nin cooperate with sweepers? Use them the same way you would Nin with a Pyroclasm in your hand. Wait.
Dragonmaster Outcast is an insane win condition because it only costs one mana. It was WAY easier to protect than a six mana spell and your opponent doesn't get to turn around and win on you while you're tapped out.
Also you can shoot dragons for 4 cards with Nin and not lose them.
Pyromancer is insane. Also provides targets for Nin.
Not at 4 mana
What upkeep? You cast spells (which is what Nin decks do) and get a win condition. The tokens also interact favorably with Nin's draw ability by providing fodder.
Some of the quickest Nin games I've played as and against were Young Pyromancer on turn 2 with Daze/etc backup. Every turn thereafter I countered/removed whatever my opponent played and they fell in a few turns to the tokens. Young Pyromancer is incredible.
I'm not really an AEtherling fan, nor am I big on the Titan either, but Sphinx is rather reliable. You play it, protect it for 0, and let it do it's thing. You don't full tap for it on t5 (you're not ready to finish the game anyway).
The other win-con here is Runechanter's Pike (which is why I won't play Dig Through Time or Treasure Cruise). Pike on our Sphinx or Nin is enough to win, if we're at that point.
My deck also played Stormtide Leviathan. Cute, and more pet card than efficient, but the pseudo Moat plus half colour fixing was relevant. You don't want to play it until t10 ideally, but Nin plays to the super late anyway so I don't see that as a problem.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I used to play Master of Waves, but felt it was sub-par and traded it for a Dead/Gone
Prognostic Sphinx looks fine, but I wouldn't play it instead of a Niv-Mizzet.
I don't really know why you think this is so bad. Retrieval for Dig, for a mass removal spell or even for something like Shattering Spree against artifact-heavy Maelstroms is a bomb. It allows you to take a game you're a little in front and seal them completely. It also makes Intuition MUCH better, since you can get it + 2 spells and the opponent has basically no choice. All I can tell from your posts is that you haven't played the card.
Starstorm doesn't deal with planeswalkers.
I play Treasure Cruise and Dig in Wydwen with Pike and it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Pike isn't giving +10 like it used to, but it still gives +6. With fetches, planeswalkers, and some creatures and enchantments, you can delve away enough to not hurt too much. I've cruised on turn 5 (delving 7), Dig'd three turns later, and still had a Pike on +5 to close out the game the following turn. Cantrips and delving the right cards adds up big-time.
The reason why I'm so critical when it comes to Nin decklists is because I honestly feel like it's my hardest match-up in all of French/Duel Commander. Nin just goes over the top of any other blue deck (in terms of cards) and has pyroclasm effects to beat small creature decks, which puts it in a great meta position. I think it's a really strong deck that's only weak to Geist, Graveyard decks, and Doran/Anafenza. I also feel like this is not a deck where you ever play big scary threats. Those cards are just so bad to draw before turn 8, and it's not like you have a way to tutor for them. Nin should have a low curve, be efficient with its mana, and win off of a smattering of cheap and flexible threats.
And to be honest, I think Intuition is pretty bad in Nin. Slow tool-box effects like that can't compare to a density of strong cards, especially when the deck has so much innate card draw.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
but we're not a tempo deck. Since we're playing for the late game anyways isn't the added flexibility of being able to stall out a big spell worth it?
aetherlings strengths are that it's a rather fast clock (albeit a mana intensive one) and that it never dies ever. if you play it with just 2 extra mana available the only option they have is have to give up massive CA to deal with it.
We're not a tempo deck, but the tempo advantage is still real. Indeed, sometimes we just win because we set their mana development back a turn.
It's still seven mana (or eight, sometimes) for a threat that doesn't produce CA on it's own, and still requires mana/turn to be protected which leads to "stock mana" if you don't have something to cast on an opponent's end step. Agree to disagree?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Now, because I'm playing a looter version, Bonfire and Sudden Demise are crucial, since they don't kill my creatures.
I never played against Griselbrand, but if that was strong in my meta I'd add Clever Impersonator and maybe even Dack's Duplicate. Coupled with Pithing Needle that could be very hard for Grisel to answer. They almost always play Grisel and tap out. You could follow with a Clone and have mana to 1-2 counters and draw 7-14 cards and maybe even hit Needle right there. I feel it should be fine even if they manage to take out your Grisel.
Niv-Mizzet should be a Keranos, and I'm still trying to fit Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise. The most obvious slots would be Flash of Insight and Ancestral Vision, but maybe Personal Tutor and Think Twice are better options to take out. I've been playing Long-Term Plans instead of Personal Tutor for a while and it feels great, although I don't know if it's that much better...
About the delve cards, I'm still no sure if I should add that much graveyard reliance on a deck that already plays the graveyard. If you have an opposing Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace with the deck as it is, you're mostly fine. If you add another 2 cards that depend on the graveyard to function, then maybe it's too much. I'm not sure yet.
I'm also trying to fit Gitaxian Probe and Force Spike back in.
LANDS
19 Island
9 Mountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Volcanic Island
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Tolaria West
UTILITY CREATURES
1 Enclave Cryptologist
1 Thought Courier
1 Gilded Drake
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Chasm Skulker
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1 True-Name Nemesis
COUNTERS
1 Counterflux
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Dissolve
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Miscalculation
1 Pyroblast
1 Remand
1 Stifle
1 Trickbind
QUIET SPECULATION PACKAGE
1 Flash of Insight
1 Think Twice
1 Deep Analysis
1 Devil's Play
1 Faithless Looting
1 Mystic Retrieval
1 Quiet Speculation
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
ARTIFACTS
1 Pithing Needle
ENCHANTMENTS
1 Blood Moon
1 Parallax Tide
1 Treachery
PLANESWALKERS
1 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
REMOVAL
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Dead/Gone
1 Electrolyze
1 Fire // Ice
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Shattering Spree
1 Sudden Demise
OTHER SPELLS
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Intuition
1 Izzet Charm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Order of Succession
1 Personal Tutor
1 Ruination
I believe you're underselling what Mono-B is capable of. Between disruption and Cavern, you won't counter the Demon, and playing Clones for him isn't effective because he still gets to draw first. Even if you drew into Needle in your situation, they're still gonna draw in response, and that's not good for you at all (indeed, draw28 will win the game).
At the same time, you can't sit back because they will grind your hand out with the plethora of disruption they get, you won't keep be able to untap with Nin with all the removal they get, and it just overall is a fairly miserable experience. It's like playing Gruul aggro vs Esper control.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Maze of Ith is also a good answer, specially if you play Expedition Map/Tolaria West. Dead/Gone, Bonfire, Keranos/Niv-Mizzet. Also, if you can land an early Jace and start +2 with him, you only need to avoid Hero's Downfall and stuff like that. Once Grisel hits, he'll be bounced back for a loooong time.
That's the beauty of Commander: it's so much variance that you can't tell your opponent will always have that Cavern of Souls right there. Also, Moon effects counter that really well.
As I said, I'll never advocate the matchup isn't hard. It probably really is. But you can't say we don't have a gameplan against Grisel.