For Prossh, I don't mind him getting the tokens. I'm more concern of him dropping pump spells. If he does that, I make sure that I got Teeg involved unless they have some stupid 3cmc pump spells that bypass Teeg i.e. Beastmaster Ascension or having Purph on the field.
Well, I like using Earthcraft... it's proportionate to how big Marath is. It has great utilities since there are some cards that works well... like Mentor or Purph. Heck, I used Brimaz's tokens to clamp them when I'm tapped out.
You should try it. I've seen players on 'trice and the game when exploded with Marath getting a lot of CA with other cards. When a lot of good players sees Earthcraft, they'll destroy it ASAP. I learned all that from watching Jester's Animar.
It's good on paper and theory plus it has some nifty abilities... the problem will be actual performance with its impact on the board from early, mid and late. Even if those are satisfied, which of the "previous top 8" Marath deck cards would YOU suggest to drop for the Shapeshifter at the time when they're posted? Would you drop a dork? Brimaz? Lark? Thalia? Filter? Ooze?
Sometimes, deck space is also a factor where you have to weigh in the card's impact.
Lyserg, great points on these topics. I do feel that Cobra is terrible at times and same goes for Gyre Sage... have you added Hibernation's End in the deck yet?
@crovaxius: I've seen players using Cathar's Crusade in Marath when they first started Marath. Sometimes, it's a hit or missed... and most often, it's a good combo with Earthcraft... don't know why you dropped it since with Marath and the other two enchantments means that Marath has tons of tokens without having the boss to die. As for Earthcraft, having Sakura-Tribe Elder, Solemn Simulacrum, Wood Elves and 9 fetchlands shouldn't be a problem looking for a basic.
Elspeth is good... but Domri gives tons of mana in addition for giving out tokens which is essential when aggro is your strategy.
Some top 8 decks used both lands (township and trample)...
Hibernation's End? I haven't seen that card being played lol Bit pricy and slow... At least Yisan can bypass on early turns.
As for Mox... we already have turn 1 dorks but it doesn't really help when we need all the resources we can muster. Early turns, sure! But on mid and late, it's really not worth it.
I'm not ready to drop Lotus and Gyre just yet since there are tumes when Gyre managed to beat the crap on some opponentsxD
Hey guys! been learning a lot from this thread. Had a terribly haunting question come up in my mind though. I've been having fun fireballing everything with Marath and killing him off to just make him stronger. Does the damage not happen if I remove all the tokens and he dies? Doesn't the effect resolve before that happens?
sorry for the terribly nub question
edit - and does it ever feel like you just keep casting marath and using all your mana while the other guy keeps doing stuff? Luckily my other commander decks are ones I built so theyre terrible but I figure when I get Prossh and start work on him it's gonna be bad...
Hey guys! been learning a lot from this thread. Had a terribly haunting question come up in my mind though. I've been having fun fireballing everything with Marath and killing him off to just make him stronger. Does the damage not happen if I remove all the tokens and he dies? Doesn't the effect resolve before that happens?
sorry for the terribly nub question
You mean counters from Marath? No damage will take place if there's something that triggers from damage (ie Furnace of Rath) IF the Marath player decided to remove all of Marath's counters and as a result he dies due to SBA.
edit - and does it ever feel like you just keep casting marath and using all your mana while the other guy keeps doing stuff? Luckily my other commander decks are ones I built so theyre terrible but I figure when I get Prossh and start work on him it's gonna be bad...
In a way if you don't have any other alternative so he's all good since recasting Marath means he's getting more powerful and he has more options on how to spend those delicious counters. For Marath, he's even more powerful if there are other cards that can utilized him.
Yea I meant counters. Well that's unfortunate because I was having a lot of fun removng all his counters and burning everything. I could still burn all but one counter and then remove the last as a 1/1 token I suppose but it usually works out that his tokens equal what I need to kill @_@ A furnace of wrath and all of those doubling seasons cards definitely hold a place in this deck had I the dosh.
I have little testing lately but so far I'm not really fond of the Bellringers other than untapping (other route for getting the combo didn't showed up during my games) so far I need more testing. I've seen Lyserg play Bellringers online but so far his analysis is still inconclusive...
Yisan, I've got her to 2 counters for Teeg which is a tib bit too slow for 2G before Oloro control manage to Toxic Deluged the whole field (during my replays, he has some nifty 4cmc).
Selvala is an interesting card. Sometimes I have to avoid using her ability before I know I can cast something on the field. Which in turn, I need to put back Oracle of Mul Daya in my deck.
Reclamation Sage is a good card to replace the sliver. I totally forgot that the sliver doesn't have the "may" clause which saves me a lot of trouble playing it and NOT destroying my precious Earthcraft and friends.
Hey guys! been learning a lot from this thread. Had a terribly haunting question come up in my mind though. I've been having fun fireballing everything with Marath and killing him off to just make him stronger. Does the damage not happen if I remove all the tokens and he dies? Doesn't the effect resolve before that happens?
sorry for the terribly nub question
You mean counters from Marath? No damage will take place if there's something that triggers from damage (ie Furnace of Rath) IF the Marath player decided to remove all of Marath's counters and as a result he dies due to SBA.
Marath does die as an SBA, but he still deals the damage. The ability is separate from the permanent once it's been put on the stack.
So, yes, you CAN remove all of the counters from him to make him deal damage, then recast him stronger than before.
I was wondering what our list of criteria for a good planeswalker in Marath would be like. What does a good walker need to do, what do we use walkers for, what is their place in the deck strategy? Most of the lists run these:
Why are these the most common (I know they are powerful and what they are capable of, I just want to create a frame of reference, a list of requirements for all the future walkers that may interest us)?
Common Marath decks in competitive scene consists of cheap creatures... often having manadorks on any turn and often emptying our hand. This led for using Garruk's 5 "draws" as our deck has at least 42.42% creatures (with 42.42% land with 15.15% others) . More often we can definitely refuel our hand. Since most of our opponents (even in a tourney scene) by now is familiar our creature roster.
Meh on the -3 unless we have PT or something big and green.
If this goes on, his ultimate can gives the advantage.
Same as Garruk caller... albeit one per turn. At least we can take a peak.
Its fight ability can be essential to save Marath's counters.
Its ultimate is annoying. I've only seen it once online in 'trice. Too bad he doesn't last long when people realized how annoying his first and last ability is.
His pseudo "mana ability" can as it's our 2nd Cradle for . Can't ignore that.
It can protect itself and fueling our Cradle cards.
Its ultimate is as the same as refueling our field (42.42% creature deck).
The most common theme for them is other than having the typical 'walker utilities, they refuel our hand, mana or even providing a token in one way or another.
And why are some other more or less "good ones" omitted from most of the lists, let's say:
You have to include a lot of reasoning when adding them to Marath. Some players use them and others don't. For example, I've used Elspeth 1.0 on an aggro deck when I first started. In the most recent list, I can't really used her since her ability is bit "limited" to use. Despite it can give a token, it can't really refuel our hand which is the downside when we overextend and our opponent just simply sweep our entire field. In some other walkers, they can be good in an aggro deck. I don't really call the "most common" Marath an aggro deck but it's more closely identified as midrange.
Lyserg, I'm interested in hearing the reasons behind these changes... Cutting garruk wild speaker makes me wonder... And brimaz has been pretty good thus far. I do agree with garruk caller of beasts getting cut it was clunky at times. When will you be giving more detail? And I did have aura shards as a dead card most of the time
It's true for Garruk's cmc... I feel like Mentor has a place to stay since I rely so much on CA. On the other hand, with Oloro out of the picture, I guess we can drop some of the cards since Oloro is one of the reason I add him.
Glad that he's out. Sooo that's 2/5 of the new commander 2.0 that's out.
Not entirely sure. It's like when Zur got banned, we assumed which one will top ... Marath being one of them, the others are bit on and off until Oloro finally got a consistent data from tons of tourneys and testings.
From your list, those are typical candidates. Marath got back in the the unknown meta once more and most likely to go to the top spot.
Speaking of which, I'm a bit skeptic on dropping Aura Shards but I've played Oloro "last night" (aka came from work, play then small sleep for work in 5 hours from double time), I've realized that Zur's welding and a couple of annoying enchantments is a valid reason for keeping it at that time. Now that he's gone, we don't really need it unless the meta shifted to to loveable artifact/enchantment.... Although if MW is your meta (esp if it's rock happy like mine) then it's your silver bullet.
It's been a while since I've faced Jester's Animar (which is a couple of times). Other version or close to it from other people, yeah. So far, I remember, his deck is super fast unless you can do turn 2 Marath which you can start pinging his resources. And sometimes, his small land ratio can be used against him. So speedwise, Animar has the edge for combo. If we keep hitting his resources, we can have a chance.
Oh, one of the reason why I kept Linvala and using Mindcensor (I should bring back that bird again) at that time. Stopping his dorks and limiting his search is an asset.
Well, I like using Earthcraft... it's proportionate to how big Marath is. It has great utilities since there are some cards that works well... like Mentor or Purph. Heck, I used Brimaz's tokens to clamp them when I'm tapped out.
You should try it. I've seen players on 'trice and the game when exploded with Marath getting a lot of CA with other cards. When a lot of good players sees Earthcraft, they'll destroy it ASAP. I learned all that from watching Jester's Animar.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Sometimes, deck space is also a factor where you have to weigh in the card's impact.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Elspeth is good... but Domri gives tons of mana in addition for giving out tokens which is essential when aggro is your strategy.
Some top 8 decks used both lands (township and trample)...
Curse of Predation is good in my aggro deck (even using Magus). Definite add Hellrider in there.
Hoped those changes helped you.
-------
Hibernation's End? I haven't seen that card being played lol Bit pricy and slow... At least Yisan can bypass on early turns.
As for Mox... we already have turn 1 dorks but it doesn't really help when we need all the resources we can muster. Early turns, sure! But on mid and late, it's really not worth it.
I'm not ready to drop Lotus and Gyre just yet since there are tumes when Gyre managed to beat the crap on some opponentsxD
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
sorry for the terribly nub question
edit - and does it ever feel like you just keep casting marath and using all your mana while the other guy keeps doing stuff? Luckily my other commander decks are ones I built so theyre terrible but I figure when I get Prossh and start work on him it's gonna be bad...
You mean counters from Marath? No damage will take place if there's something that triggers from damage (ie Furnace of Rath) IF the Marath player decided to remove all of Marath's counters and as a result he dies due to SBA.
In a way if you don't have any other alternative so he's all good since recasting Marath means he's getting more powerful and he has more options on how to spend those delicious counters. For Marath, he's even more powerful if there are other cards that can utilized him.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Oi, thanks time to rethink some things.
1 Marath, Will of the Wild
Creatures:42
1 Acidic Slime
1 Arbor Elf
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Bloom Tender
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gyre Sage
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Nightshade Peddler
1 Primeval Titan
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
1 Skyshroud Elf
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Village Bell-Ringer
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Wood Elves
1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Council's Judgment
1 Green Sun's Zenith
Instants:5
1 Chord of Calling
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Swords to Plowshares
Enchantments:4
1 Aura Shards
1 Earthcraft
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
Artifacts:3
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Birthing Pod
1 Skullclamp
Lands:39
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Brushland
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Flooded Strand
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Gavony Township
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mana Confluence
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plateau
1 Raging Ravine
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Savannah
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Taiga
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
I have little testing lately but so far I'm not really fond of the Bellringers other than untapping (other route for getting the combo didn't showed up during my games) so far I need more testing. I've seen Lyserg play Bellringers online but so far his analysis is still inconclusive...
Yisan, I've got her to 2 counters for Teeg which is a tib bit too slow for 2G before Oloro control manage to Toxic Deluged the whole field (during my replays, he has some nifty 4cmc).
Selvala is an interesting card. Sometimes I have to avoid using her ability before I know I can cast something on the field. Which in turn, I need to put back Oracle of Mul Daya in my deck.
Reclamation Sage is a good card to replace the sliver. I totally forgot that the sliver doesn't have the "may" clause which saves me a lot of trouble playing it and NOT destroying my precious Earthcraft and friends.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Marath does die as an SBA, but he still deals the damage. The ability is separate from the permanent once it's been put on the stack.
So, yes, you CAN remove all of the counters from him to make him deal damage, then recast him stronger than before.
Easy: They give us CA.
The most common theme for them is other than having the typical 'walker utilities, they refuel our hand, mana or even providing a token in one way or another.
You have to include a lot of reasoning when adding them to Marath. Some players use them and others don't. For example, I've used Elspeth 1.0 on an aggro deck when I first started. In the most recent list, I can't really used her since her ability is bit "limited" to use. Despite it can give a token, it can't really refuel our hand which is the downside when we overextend and our opponent just simply sweep our entire field. In some other walkers, they can be good in an aggro deck. I don't really call the "most common" Marath an aggro deck but it's more closely identified as midrange.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Glad that he's out. Sooo that's 2/5 of the new commander 2.0 that's out.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Might as well retwisting my deck for the new meta.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
From your list, those are typical candidates. Marath got back in the the unknown meta once more and most likely to go to the top spot.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Speaking of which, I'm a bit skeptic on dropping Aura Shards but I've played Oloro "last night" (aka came from work, play then small sleep for work in 5 hours from double time), I've realized that Zur's welding and a couple of annoying enchantments is a valid reason for keeping it at that time. Now that he's gone, we don't really need it unless the meta shifted to to loveable artifact/enchantment.... Although if MW is your meta (esp if it's rock happy like mine) then it's your silver bullet.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
Oh, one of the reason why I kept Linvala and using Mindcensor (I should bring back that bird again) at that time. Stopping his dorks and limiting his search is an asset.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier