Moreover with the new expansion spoiler growing, i noticed Drown In Sorrow a nice mass removal against swarm-like deck tutrorable with transmute tutors and with scry added. could be a nice addition/replacement for toxic deludge for life-saving games.
What do you think about?!
My initial thought is that Drown in Sorrow isn't needed. I don't play Infest, and adding "Scry 1" isn't enough for me to want to play it. With all the tutors (both transmute cards that can get Toxic Deluge and regular tutors that can get Deluge or Supreme Verdict), I haven't really had an issue with not being able to find a wrath when I need one. If anything, I've found that I don't need a wrath very often because I can just outrace a lot of the creatures. Also, don't forgot that you can just cast Doomsday and put a wrath in the Doomsday pile! If I was going to add another sweeper effect it would be a "real" sweeper like Wrath of God, because there are plenty of creatures with more than 2 toughness.
At the moment I like my list a lot, including the ratio of tutors/removal/cantrips/counters. If anything I would maybe want to find space for something like Shred Memory or Nihil Spellbomb. Basically I may want to try a piece of graveyard hate that isn't dead against decks that don't rely on the graveyard. Shred Memory can transmute for a number of useful cards (including Demonic Tutor!), and Spellbomb replaces itself. I've rarely found myself wanting graveyard hate, though, so I may just keep the deck as-is.
I haven't posted tournament reports from the last couple tournaments I played in with the deck because I didn't want to just monopolize the thread with my reports. The deck is still doing well, though.
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
I noticed how hatred is actually a good elternate win condition in Oloro decks. EOT vendillion clique can seal the deal if you have hatred at hand.
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A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
I don't think your threat density is high enough for Hatred to be efficient. It'll be a dead card most of the time, and Phyrexian Processor is probably the better option if want a recurring threat that makes use of your life gain.
Forgive me. but i have a different list with 10 creatures. i havent tested it yet, but it maybe a different archetype than doomsday deck because i might cut out the doomsday combo if i will play hatred. but hey, Phyrexian processor is a good idea! thanks!
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A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
I don't think the deck needs that much more plain old card draw, especially something like Moonlight Bargain that is less flexible (you can always Skeletal Scrying for just a couple cards in a pinch). Also, revealing a Moonlight Bargain with Ad Nauseam would suck. The deck (well, my build at least) already plays Phyrexian Arena, Scrying, Ponder, Brainstorm, Preordain, Jace, Ad Nauseam, Night's Whisper...plenty of ways to draw cards.
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
How does the deck perform against the current meta?
(ie how does this deck fair again UW as a whole?)
I think it's well positioned against UW generally (I'm referring to my build here because it's the only version of Oloro Doomsday that I've played). Black gives you access to discard which can be devastating for your opponent. You take a key card from them, and get information about their game plan in the process. If they choose to counter your discard spell, well then they have one less counter available to fight you when you go off. The white chant effects are awesome because the opponent pretty much has to fight you over them, and even if you lose that counter war you have at least exhausted their resources while you are still free to go off. You also have a very compact win condition that is incredibly difficult to disrupt and a lot of ways to find it.
The deck offers some very powerful control and disruption tools, while also able to win out of nowhere. You don't need to develop your board of creatures or whittle their life total down. You just resolve Doomsday and win.
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
I haven't posted a report in a bit, but I took some decent notes from a tournament this weekend so I figured I'd do another report. This past Saturday there was a local Duel Commander tournament with a Scrubland as first prize. I needed another Scrubland for Legacy so I was definitely attending. Only 8 or 10 people showed up, so we played 3 rounds of Swiss with a cut to top 4. I played the same list that I posted here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11349701&postcount=47
This round was relatively one-sided because I was able to control things pretty well, and I went for the combo as quick as possible to race him. Game 1 I used the following pass the turn pile:
Abeyance
Predict
Laboratory Maniac
Gush
Unearth
Game 2 I went off early and made a pile that passed the turn twice:
Underground Sea
Predict
Laboratory Maniac
Unearth
Street Wraith
My opponent here was a very good player using a well-tuned Cephalid Breakfast style of combo. I'd played this deck once before piloted by a friend of his, and knew it would be a tough matchup. I figured I was the underdog. After he won game 1 I was not optimistic. I was able to take game 2 after making the following pile (with Predict in hand):
Laboratory Maniac
Gush
Pact of Negation
Unearth
Street Wraith
Game 3 was pretty wild. I was holding Jace, the Mind Sculptor the whole game because I never found the right time to play it. I resolved a Doomsday, only to have him cast Memory's Journey to totally mess up my Doomsday pile. I didn't give up, though. I played my Jace and used his 0 ability to manage my library to the point that I hard-cast the Lab Maniac and then used the draw spells that were in my pile to win the game. I don't remember how long it took me but I think it was at least 2 turns.
We were both a lock for top 4 so we decided to ID. We did play one game for fun, which I won. He got a good start but then I wiped his board with Toxic Deluge.
Matches: 2-0-1 Games: 4-1
Semifinal: Child of Alara
This is the same player from the Swiss, and I figured my luck from our first match wouldn't hold out. He blew me out in game one by playing a Riftsweeper to screw up the pass the turn pile I made with Doomsday. He was able to combo off before I could do anything with my randomized library.
In game 2 I found myself with Lab Maniac in hand and I finally realized that the better route to victory against his deck was Lab Maniac into Tainted Pact, because he has so many ways to disrupt my Doomsday piles (but not many answers to a resolved Lab Maniac). I ended up winning games 2 and 3 with Tainted Pact.
Matches: 3-0-1 Games: 6-2
Finals: Varolz
Here I found myself against my round 1 opponent again. These games were a bit closer than our first match. In game 1 I made the following Doomsday pile with Lab Maniac in hand:
Brainstorm
Predict
Gush
Unearth
Street Wraith
I don't remember my pile in game 2, but I definitely won it with Doomsday.
Matches: 4-0-1 Games: 8-2
I still think this deck is great, though I'm not sure how it will fare in the new meta with the latest ban list announcement. I can imagine Animar being a real problem for this deck, but I'm not sure. I may take a break from Oloro to get some variety, but I definitely think this deck is still going to be very good. I'm looking forward to how the format develops in light of the upcoming changes.
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
Thanks for all of your reports. Your list is greatly influencing my development.
I notice that all of your wins involve Unearthing Lab Man. Does graveyard hate never come up? I guess now with Zur gone there will be fewer Rest in Peaces, but still it has to come up sometimes.
Also, a general question: Has anyone ever considered Quicken for this deck? That card seems incredible for this strategy, be it for end of turn Doomsdays or instant Unearths.
Thanks for all of your reports. Your list is greatly influencing my development.
I notice that all of your wins involve Unearthing Lab Man. Does graveyard hate never come up? I guess now with Zur gone there will be fewer Rest in Peaces, but still it has to come up sometimes.
Also, a general question: Has anyone ever considered Quicken for this deck? That card seems incredible for this strategy, be it for end of turn Doomsdays or instant Unearths.
Quicken is a must try. now that Zur is gone, we really need to speed up against land destruction. EOT doomsday is a top play.
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A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Thanks for all of your reports. Your list is greatly influencing my development.
That is a great compliment, thank you!
I notice that all of your wins involve Unearthing Lab Man. Does graveyard hate never come up? I guess now with Zur gone there will be fewer Rest in Peaces, but still it has to come up sometimes.
I've gotten quite a few wins with just hard casting Lab Man and then using Tainted Pact. But you're right, I do use Unearth a lot. The main reason for that is it's so mana efficient. You can get him into play for just B. That provides good synergy with Predict and Mental Note. I haven't faced much graveyard hate, but if I did I would just change my Doomsday pile. (Note that something like Abeyance handles a lot of graveyard hate that isn't Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void.) In the absence of graveyard hate, I like the efficiency of Unearth so it's part of my "default" pile.
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
With at least 2 islands and 1 other land in play and 2 cards in hand:
TOP
Frantic Search
LabMan
Gush
Pact of Negation
Gitaxian Probe
Bottom
Draw Phase: Draw Frantic Search
Main Phase:
Tap Lands for UU1
Play Frantic Search > Draw LabMan, Gush; Discard 2 cards in hand; Untap 3 Lands
Tap lands for UU1
Play Labman
Return 2 Islands in hand
Play Gush > Draw: Pact of Negation, Gitaxian Probe
Lose 2 Life
Play Gitaxian Probe > Win.
Totally circumvent GY hate.
Wouldn't Street Wraith be better than Probe here? Seeing their hand seems irrelevant because there's not much you can do at that point anyway (if it resolves you win), and cycling Street Wraith is much more difficult for them to interact with. Admittedly it's a very minor point, but I just figured I'd throw it out there to see what everyone else thinks.
Edit: How about this pass the turn pile for getting around graveyard hate?
Top
Gush
Abeyance
Gitaxian Probe
Street Wraith
Lab Man
Bottom
On your turn, draw Gush. Tap two islands for blue, return them to your hand to cast Gush. You now have Abeyance and Probe in hand with UU floating.
Play one of the islands you returned to your hand with Gush as your land for the turn.
Cast Abeyance for 1W. You could use one of the U floating to pay the colorless mana. When Abeyance resolves, you draw Street Wraith. You now have Street Wraith and Probe in hand with U floating.
Cycle Street Wraith to draw Lab Man.
Cast Lab Man using the U floating and 2 of any other mana (one of which could come from the island you played this turn). Cast Probe for 2 life to win the game.
Total cost: 3WU and 4 life. The mana cost is effectively less than 3WU because you are tapping the same land twice (one of the islands you bounced with Gush). You just need 4 lands in play when you resolve Doomsday, as long as 2 of them are some kind of island and one land can produce W. Also note that, strictly speaking, this pile doesn't require that you have any cards in hand when you pass the turn after resolving Doomsday. Using Frantic Search you need at least 2 cards in hand to be able to pitch so you can keep the Lab Man and Gush you drew.
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
Brainstorm
Laboratory maniac
Demonic Consultation
Pact of negation
Silence
Bottom
but to have this pile, you'll need extra cards at hand because of brainstorm. plus cards like gitaxian probe or gush, or rather street wraith needs to be on hand before doing this.
5 mana is all we need. then its finished.
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A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Hello! Thanks for the responses (you and Heathen).
I'm not playing any list yet, I'm try to pin one down. It'll definitely be more on the controlling side, as there are a lot of creatures in my meta (there's an Ezuri player, a Thrun/Purphoros player, Rafiq, etc.). I just had Zur pulled out from under me, so I'm hunting around for good things to play (my current ideas are Varolz, Oloro control, this, or some sort of Mimeoplasm control/reanimator strategy since I love BUG colours).
The Unearth win definitely seems good in the absense of hate. There aren't many ways of instant-speed messing with graveyards that you can't see coming a mile away. I was surprised to see the Doomsday list on mtgtop8 not using Unearth at all.
I also like the idea of Zur's Weirding a lot, and will try to include Academy Rector to that end.
Concerning Unearth + Predict. Two things
- those cards are not good in hand. Not horrible but bad.
I'll disagree here. Unearth can cycle, and then you get to put it into your Doomsday pile from the graveyard. So, it's not really that bad because it replaces itself. Predict basically cycles too, though it can act as a quasi-Time Walk when used on your opponent's upkeep.
Edit: For some reason I was thinking of Abeyance when I wrote the thing about a "quasi-Time Walk." Ignore that. I still think the fact that you can just cast Predict whenever before going off in order to replace it with another card makes it not a dead card in hand.
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
I guess drawing a card for 2 mana is what I call not horrible but bad.
My point is that they're not terrible to draw naturally before casting Doomsday. The fact that you can replace them with another card is quite good, and the utility they have after casting Doomsday more than warrants them being in the deck, in my opinion. I definitely view Unearth and Predict as essentials in the Doomsday deck I'll play.
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
I have a question about Embargo in your deck. What exactly is the plan with this card? You drop it, the opponent is greatly hurt by it, but so far you. With it in play, doesn't that make it much harder to actually combo out quickly since you either have to get rid of it or have enough mana to power through it?
Also, some other versions of this deck have significant artifact mana acceleration and your version of the deck does not. Doesn't the acceleration help you get to the mana you need in order to combo out?
i personally cut embargo from my list which is a control/combo list. Its not bad but i feel like the abyss does the same thing but better in all but a few situations and without the cost of life. It also won't stop your opponent from swinging in the first time with there creatures.
I have a question about Embargo in your deck. What exactly is the plan with this card? You drop it, the opponent is greatly hurt by it, but so far you. With it in play, doesn't that make it much harder to actually combo out quickly since you either have to get rid of it or have enough mana to power through it?
Also, some other versions of this deck have significant artifact mana acceleration and your version of the deck does not. Doesn't the acceleration help you get to the mana you need in order to combo out?
Embargo can be almost a hard lock against a lot of decks, and I've never been disappointed to draw it. For now I'm going to keep it in, though if you cut it I'd wonder what would replace it.
As for artifact mana, I haven't felt the need for it. The deck doesn't need a ton of mana to win (as illustrated in discussions about piles above, 5 mana can be enough), and artifact mana doesn't help with Gush. Also artifact mana is a terrible top deck and causes you to tap out when you might otherwise keep up mana for a counter or removal. The times I've felt the need to be very fast I've either Mystical Tutored for Dark Ritual or put it in the Doomsday pile. I have not played a game yet where I've thought afterwards, "I wish I'd had some mana rocks in that game."
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
Embargo can be almost a hard lock against a lot of decks, and I've never been disappointed to draw it.
I totally misread the card and thought it applied to your lands as well, like a more expensive Stasis. I see the value in it now that I actually understand what it is doing.
As for artifact mana, I haven't felt the need for it. The deck doesn't need a ton of mana to win (as illustrated in discussions about piles above, 5 mana can be enough), and artifact mana doesn't help with Gush.
This is a really awesome deck, I've read the entire thread, and I'm very impressed. I'm want to build a version of this deck for multiplayer that I'll sometimes use in versus for budget kitchen table semi competitive play group. There are quite a many different decks I've seen so I have a quite a few questions (I don't expect one person to answer every single question). I hope this isn't too overwhelming, but after rereading the thread, there were some things I didn't understand.
On average, how early does the deck resolve Doomsday? Is it always the first card we tutor? When do we know the appropriate time to cast it? Do we essentially want to play it as quickly as possible?
On average, how early does the deck resolve Doomsday? Is it always the first card we tutor? When do we know the appropriate time to cast it? Do we essentially want to play it as quickly as possible?
I'd say the earliest I cast Doomsday is turn 3, though it's usually much later. Generally I don't need to combo off as soon as possible. Oloro provides a nice buffer to allow me time to get things under control and comfortably combo off when it's safe. I do not try to play it as quickly as possible, unless the specific game calls for that. Generally I want to stabilize the game and then use Doomsday to end it before the opponent can kill me.
In my list I can still hard cast Lab Maniac and then use Tainted Pact. Also, I have counters to keep things from resolving that would exile my Doomsday. Besides, a smart player would exile the Lab Maniac, not the Doomsday. If all else fails, I can win with Jace or even Oloro beat downs (though I've never had to try the latter and it would be my absolute last resort).
How many lands should I be running? Why? Are there any non basic lands that are especially important aside from lands that tape for multiple colors?
How many lands depends entirely on your curve and your game plan. You definitely want to max out on fetches and islands so you can get the right colors and use islands for Gush.
Are mana rocks and rituals necessary? My inclination is telling me no, but a lot of lists run many of them.
I think Dark Ritual is necessary because it can be used to cast Doomsday off a single black source. I don't run mana rocks, and haven't felt the need for them.
How many tutors should I be running and which are the best budget friendly ones (I can't afford Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Personal Tutor, etc.)?
The cards that transmute for a 3 drop are great and generally very cheap (Perplex, Drift of Phantasms). They can get you Doomsday, Lab Maniac, Phyrexian Arena, Toxic Deluge, Dismember, etc. I also run Demonic Tutor and Mystical Tutor. I haven't felt the need for Personal and Grim Tutors, or Imperial Seal. If you're building for multiplayer, Vampiric Tutor is probably a good thing to have.
First, you want to be able to sweep the board, which rules out Mom and Grand Abolisher. You get the same type of effects from cards like Silence and Abeyance, as well as counters. Leyline would only really be useful if it's in your opening hand, otherwise I don't think it provides enough advantage to warrant paying 4 mana at sorcery speed. I haven't tested Quicken, but my gut says it's too cute and situational. I do think it's worth testing though.
Cards like Predict, Unearth, and Gush appear to be in every deck, they seem important. What are some other cards that are 100% must run?
IMO Tainted Pact is a must. If you're building this for multiplayer, Sensei's Divining Top is a must. Lim Dul's Vault has been an all-star and I'd consider it a must too.
Lastly, if you could only pick one or two Doomsday piles, which would you say are the best/most reliable/most consistent?
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
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My initial thought is that Drown in Sorrow isn't needed. I don't play Infest, and adding "Scry 1" isn't enough for me to want to play it. With all the tutors (both transmute cards that can get Toxic Deluge and regular tutors that can get Deluge or Supreme Verdict), I haven't really had an issue with not being able to find a wrath when I need one. If anything, I've found that I don't need a wrath very often because I can just outrace a lot of the creatures. Also, don't forgot that you can just cast Doomsday and put a wrath in the Doomsday pile! If I was going to add another sweeper effect it would be a "real" sweeper like Wrath of God, because there are plenty of creatures with more than 2 toughness.
At the moment I like my list a lot, including the ratio of tutors/removal/cantrips/counters. If anything I would maybe want to find space for something like Shred Memory or Nihil Spellbomb. Basically I may want to try a piece of graveyard hate that isn't dead against decks that don't rely on the graveyard. Shred Memory can transmute for a number of useful cards (including Demonic Tutor!), and Spellbomb replaces itself. I've rarely found myself wanting graveyard hate, though, so I may just keep the deck as-is.
I haven't posted tournament reports from the last couple tournaments I played in with the deck because I didn't want to just monopolize the thread with my reports. The deck is still doing well, though.
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
What are thoughts on Moonlight Bargain as Skeletal Scrying #2? 1 more mana lets you cast Opportunity, but you do get access to one more card with the Bargain.
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
I don't think the deck needs that much more plain old card draw, especially something like Moonlight Bargain that is less flexible (you can always Skeletal Scrying for just a couple cards in a pinch). Also, revealing a Moonlight Bargain with Ad Nauseam would suck. The deck (well, my build at least) already plays Phyrexian Arena, Scrying, Ponder, Brainstorm, Preordain, Jace, Ad Nauseam, Night's Whisper...plenty of ways to draw cards.
How does the deck perform against the current meta?
(ie how does this deck fair again UW as a whole?)
I think it's well positioned against UW generally (I'm referring to my build here because it's the only version of Oloro Doomsday that I've played). Black gives you access to discard which can be devastating for your opponent. You take a key card from them, and get information about their game plan in the process. If they choose to counter your discard spell, well then they have one less counter available to fight you when you go off. The white chant effects are awesome because the opponent pretty much has to fight you over them, and even if you lose that counter war you have at least exhausted their resources while you are still free to go off. You also have a very compact win condition that is incredibly difficult to disrupt and a lot of ways to find it.
The deck offers some very powerful control and disruption tools, while also able to win out of nowhere. You don't need to develop your board of creatures or whittle their life total down. You just resolve Doomsday and win.
Round 1: Varolz, the Scar-Striped
This round was relatively one-sided because I was able to control things pretty well, and I went for the combo as quick as possible to race him. Game 1 I used the following pass the turn pile:
Abeyance
Predict
Laboratory Maniac
Gush
Unearth
Game 2 I went off early and made a pile that passed the turn twice:
Underground Sea
Predict
Laboratory Maniac
Unearth
Street Wraith
Matches: 1-0 Games: 2-0
Round 2: Child of Alara
My opponent here was a very good player using a well-tuned Cephalid Breakfast style of combo. I'd played this deck once before piloted by a friend of his, and knew it would be a tough matchup. I figured I was the underdog. After he won game 1 I was not optimistic. I was able to take game 2 after making the following pile (with Predict in hand):
Laboratory Maniac
Gush
Pact of Negation
Unearth
Street Wraith
Game 3 was pretty wild. I was holding Jace, the Mind Sculptor the whole game because I never found the right time to play it. I resolved a Doomsday, only to have him cast Memory's Journey to totally mess up my Doomsday pile. I didn't give up, though. I played my Jace and used his 0 ability to manage my library to the point that I hard-cast the Lab Maniac and then used the draw spells that were in my pile to win the game. I don't remember how long it took me but I think it was at least 2 turns.
Matches: 2-0 Games: 4-1
Round 3: Krenko, Mob Boss
We were both a lock for top 4 so we decided to ID. We did play one game for fun, which I won. He got a good start but then I wiped his board with Toxic Deluge.
Matches: 2-0-1 Games: 4-1
Semifinal: Child of Alara
This is the same player from the Swiss, and I figured my luck from our first match wouldn't hold out. He blew me out in game one by playing a Riftsweeper to screw up the pass the turn pile I made with Doomsday. He was able to combo off before I could do anything with my randomized library.
In game 2 I found myself with Lab Maniac in hand and I finally realized that the better route to victory against his deck was Lab Maniac into Tainted Pact, because he has so many ways to disrupt my Doomsday piles (but not many answers to a resolved Lab Maniac). I ended up winning games 2 and 3 with Tainted Pact.
Matches: 3-0-1 Games: 6-2
Finals: Varolz
Here I found myself against my round 1 opponent again. These games were a bit closer than our first match. In game 1 I made the following Doomsday pile with Lab Maniac in hand:
Brainstorm
Predict
Gush
Unearth
Street Wraith
I don't remember my pile in game 2, but I definitely won it with Doomsday.
Matches: 4-0-1 Games: 8-2
I still think this deck is great, though I'm not sure how it will fare in the new meta with the latest ban list announcement. I can imagine Animar being a real problem for this deck, but I'm not sure. I may take a break from Oloro to get some variety, but I definitely think this deck is still going to be very good. I'm looking forward to how the format develops in light of the upcoming changes.
I notice that all of your wins involve Unearthing Lab Man. Does graveyard hate never come up? I guess now with Zur gone there will be fewer Rest in Peaces, but still it has to come up sometimes.
Also, a general question: Has anyone ever considered Quicken for this deck? That card seems incredible for this strategy, be it for end of turn Doomsdays or instant Unearths.
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged
Quicken is a must try. now that Zur is gone, we really need to speed up against land destruction. EOT doomsday is a top play.
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
That is a great compliment, thank you!
I've gotten quite a few wins with just hard casting Lab Man and then using Tainted Pact. But you're right, I do use Unearth a lot. The main reason for that is it's so mana efficient. You can get him into play for just B. That provides good synergy with Predict and Mental Note. I haven't faced much graveyard hate, but if I did I would just change my Doomsday pile. (Note that something like Abeyance handles a lot of graveyard hate that isn't Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void.) In the absence of graveyard hate, I like the efficiency of Unearth so it's part of my "default" pile.
Wouldn't Street Wraith be better than Probe here? Seeing their hand seems irrelevant because there's not much you can do at that point anyway (if it resolves you win), and cycling Street Wraith is much more difficult for them to interact with. Admittedly it's a very minor point, but I just figured I'd throw it out there to see what everyone else thinks.
Edit: How about this pass the turn pile for getting around graveyard hate?
Top
Gush
Abeyance
Gitaxian Probe
Street Wraith
Lab Man
Bottom
On your turn, draw Gush. Tap two islands for blue, return them to your hand to cast Gush. You now have Abeyance and Probe in hand with UU floating.
Play one of the islands you returned to your hand with Gush as your land for the turn.
Cast Abeyance for 1W. You could use one of the U floating to pay the colorless mana. When Abeyance resolves, you draw Street Wraith. You now have Street Wraith and Probe in hand with U floating.
Cycle Street Wraith to draw Lab Man.
Cast Lab Man using the U floating and 2 of any other mana (one of which could come from the island you played this turn). Cast Probe for 2 life to win the game.
Total cost: 3WU and 4 life. The mana cost is effectively less than 3WU because you are tapping the same land twice (one of the islands you bounced with Gush). You just need 4 lands in play when you resolve Doomsday, as long as 2 of them are some kind of island and one land can produce W. Also note that, strictly speaking, this pile doesn't require that you have any cards in hand when you pass the turn after resolving Doomsday. Using Frantic Search you need at least 2 cards in hand to be able to pitch so you can keep the Lab Man and Gush you drew.
Top
Brainstorm
Laboratory maniac
Demonic Consultation
Pact of negation
Silence
Bottom
but to have this pile, you'll need extra cards at hand because of brainstorm. plus cards like gitaxian probe or gush, or rather street wraith needs to be on hand before doing this.
5 mana is all we need. then its finished.
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Hello! Thanks for the responses (you and Heathen).
I'm not playing any list yet, I'm try to pin one down. It'll definitely be more on the controlling side, as there are a lot of creatures in my meta (there's an Ezuri player, a Thrun/Purphoros player, Rafiq, etc.). I just had Zur pulled out from under me, so I'm hunting around for good things to play (my current ideas are Varolz, Oloro control, this, or some sort of Mimeoplasm control/reanimator strategy since I love BUG colours).
The Unearth win definitely seems good in the absense of hate. There aren't many ways of instant-speed messing with graveyards that you can't see coming a mile away. I was surprised to see the Doomsday list on mtgtop8 not using Unearth at all.
I also like the idea of Zur's Weirding a lot, and will try to include Academy Rector to that end.
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged
I'll disagree here. Unearth can cycle, and then you get to put it into your Doomsday pile from the graveyard. So, it's not really that bad because it replaces itself. Predict basically cycles too, though it can act as a quasi-Time Walk when used on your opponent's upkeep.
Edit: For some reason I was thinking of Abeyance when I wrote the thing about a "quasi-Time Walk." Ignore that. I still think the fact that you can just cast Predict whenever before going off in order to replace it with another card makes it not a dead card in hand.
My point is that they're not terrible to draw naturally before casting Doomsday. The fact that you can replace them with another card is quite good, and the utility they have after casting Doomsday more than warrants them being in the deck, in my opinion. I definitely view Unearth and Predict as essentials in the Doomsday deck I'll play.
I have a question about Embargo in your deck. What exactly is the plan with this card? You drop it, the opponent is greatly hurt by it, but so far you. With it in play, doesn't that make it much harder to actually combo out quickly since you either have to get rid of it or have enough mana to power through it?
Also, some other versions of this deck have significant artifact mana acceleration and your version of the deck does not. Doesn't the acceleration help you get to the mana you need in order to combo out?
Embargo can be almost a hard lock against a lot of decks, and I've never been disappointed to draw it. For now I'm going to keep it in, though if you cut it I'd wonder what would replace it.
As for artifact mana, I haven't felt the need for it. The deck doesn't need a ton of mana to win (as illustrated in discussions about piles above, 5 mana can be enough), and artifact mana doesn't help with Gush. Also artifact mana is a terrible top deck and causes you to tap out when you might otherwise keep up mana for a counter or removal. The times I've felt the need to be very fast I've either Mystical Tutored for Dark Ritual or put it in the Doomsday pile. I have not played a game yet where I've thought afterwards, "I wish I'd had some mana rocks in that game."
I totally misread the card and thought it applied to your lands as well, like a more expensive Stasis. I see the value in it now that I actually understand what it is doing.
And it also interacts poorly with Embargo.
On average, how early does the deck resolve Doomsday? Is it always the first card we tutor? When do we know the appropriate time to cast it? Do we essentially want to play it as quickly as possible?
What do we do if Doomsday is countered or extracted from our deck? Does it make sense to run cards like Relearn, Pull from Eternity and Call to Mind?
How many lands should I be running? Why? Are there any non basic lands that are especially important aside from lands that tape for multiple colors?
Are mana rocks and rituals necessary? My inclination is telling me no, but a lot of lists run many of them.
How many tutors should I be running and which are the best budget friendly ones (I can't afford Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Personal Tutor, etc.)?
Quicken/Leyline of Anticipation, Grand Abolisher and Mother of Runes all seem like they'd be very strong here. Why aren't more lists running them?
Why is Shelldock Isle good with Doomsday. Wouldn't you have to double pass, because Shelldock Isle comes in tapped? Is that worth it?
Cards like Predict, Unearth, and Gush appear to be in every deck, they seem important. What are some other cards that are 100% must run?
Lastly, if you could only pick one or two Doomsday piles, which would you say are the best/most reliable/most consistent?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I'd say the earliest I cast Doomsday is turn 3, though it's usually much later. Generally I don't need to combo off as soon as possible. Oloro provides a nice buffer to allow me time to get things under control and comfortably combo off when it's safe. I do not try to play it as quickly as possible, unless the specific game calls for that. Generally I want to stabilize the game and then use Doomsday to end it before the opponent can kill me.
In my list I can still hard cast Lab Maniac and then use Tainted Pact. Also, I have counters to keep things from resolving that would exile my Doomsday. Besides, a smart player would exile the Lab Maniac, not the Doomsday. If all else fails, I can win with Jace or even Oloro beat downs (though I've never had to try the latter and it would be my absolute last resort).
How many lands depends entirely on your curve and your game plan. You definitely want to max out on fetches and islands so you can get the right colors and use islands for Gush.
I think Dark Ritual is necessary because it can be used to cast Doomsday off a single black source. I don't run mana rocks, and haven't felt the need for them.
The cards that transmute for a 3 drop are great and generally very cheap (Perplex, Drift of Phantasms). They can get you Doomsday, Lab Maniac, Phyrexian Arena, Toxic Deluge, Dismember, etc. I also run Demonic Tutor and Mystical Tutor. I haven't felt the need for Personal and Grim Tutors, or Imperial Seal. If you're building for multiplayer, Vampiric Tutor is probably a good thing to have.
First, you want to be able to sweep the board, which rules out Mom and Grand Abolisher. You get the same type of effects from cards like Silence and Abeyance, as well as counters. Leyline would only really be useful if it's in your opening hand, otherwise I don't think it provides enough advantage to warrant paying 4 mana at sorcery speed. I haven't tested Quicken, but my gut says it's too cute and situational. I do think it's worth testing though.
IMO Tainted Pact is a must. If you're building this for multiplayer, Sensei's Divining Top is a must. Lim Dul's Vault has been an all-star and I'd consider it a must too.
I think my most common pile is:
top
Abeyance
Predict
Lab Maniac
Unearth
Gush
bottom
I don't know what you mean about Damia. Here is my current list:
1 Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Lands:
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Caves of Koilos
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Fetid Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Gate
1 Nimbus Maze
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reflecting Pool
1 River of Tears
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground River
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Duress
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Thoughtseize
1 Unearth
1 Castigate
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Night's Whisper
1 Revoke Existence
1 See Beyond
1 Sign in Blood
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Doomsday
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate
1 Damnation
1 Supreme Verdict
Instants:
1 Pact of Negation
1 Brainstorm
1 Condescend
1 Dark Ritual
1 Dispel
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mental Note
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Orim's Chant
1 Peek
1 Silence
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abeyance
1 Counterspell
1 Go for the Throat
1 Impulse
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Mana Leak
1 Miscalculation
1 Predict
1 Remand
1 Tainted Pact
1 Dismember
1 Perplex
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Force of Will
1 Gush
1 Misdirection
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Street Wraith
Enchantments:
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Embargo
Jace:
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor