Wydwen, the Biting Gale is a commander that players have seen time and time again at tournaments, and before the printing of Cavern of Souls, used to consistently post good results. The deck became popular off its extended use of Bitterblossom and Mana Drain, and because of the strength of Decree of Pain against Edric decks (before he was banned).
Needless to say, times have changed. GW decks now have access to a host of tools they never used to have against control (Cavern, Voice, etc.), and can often resolve an abundance of threats, even through a hand full of counterspells. Decks like Imperial Animar, Dreadnought Varolz, and Oath 5CC control have created a new class of of combo-aggro decks that can present game-winning threats by turn 3. Karador and Iname grave decks have been perfected, and are no laughing matter, consistently posting good results when proper measures are not taken against them.
So what about control? The standard approach right now is to be playing both Blue and White (See Geist and GAAIV) UW offers board clear, counters, and removal of all kinds. But what it doesn't offer hurts it the most: card advantage. UW classic control has trouble keeping up a steady flow of counters, and its tutors are lackluster. This leads us to another grouping of classic control decks: Nin, the Pain Artist and Wydwen, the Biting Gale. I will be talking about the latter today.
Note: This is a classic control approach to Wydwen, and not Emether's tempo version. Though Emether's tempo Wydwen was effective in the older meta, Wydwen is simply too slow now for the same play style. More often than not, Wydwen players must delay playing their commander because they're too busy countering early threats.
So why play Wydwen??
To be honest, the better control deck may be Nin, the Pain Artist. However, Black is a very interesting color to play and can be extremely rewarding to win with. This deck is difficult to play, because it mashes together several ideas concerning Wydwen, some old, some new. If you're looking for a control deck that never plays on its own turn, is a challenge, and can devastate creature-based decks while holding its own in the control mirror, then this deck is for you.
Why not play her?
The deck does not produce card advantage like Nin. This isn't true tempo like Geist. The Nin matchup makes you cry sad tears. You want to play on your own turn. You like crushing people easily.
This decklist is up to date as of October 12th, 2014.
Notable Inclusions:
-- Coming soon --
Notable Exclusions:
Dystopia: When this card is good, it's sooo good. If you know your meta has a strong GW presence, play this card.
Think Twice: This is a bad Flash of Insight. In most MUs it's bad, in the control MU it's mediocre. Although reliable, it's just literally not powerful enough. It's sad to see such a fun card just not be strong enough.
Recoil and Into the Roil: Recoil is only good on the play, for bouncing lands. Otherwise, it's very lackluster. Into the Roil is slightly better and shines against Animar, but it simply costs too much mana.
Expedition Map: I'm comfortable playing around Cavern without this, or playing without Cavern in the control MU. Other pilots of this deck prefer its inclusion, which is fine.
Sapphire Medallion: Ugh. This card. It doesn't do anything but make several of your spells cheaper. Explaining all the reasons I hate this card would take awhile, but essentially, I hate it because it hurts your card advantage and your ability to keep gas flowing.
Notion Thief: This just isn't reliable enough. Against very many decks, it is useless (or turns once-useless removal online).
Game Plan
Playing Wydwen in today's environment is slightly awkward. In matchups against other non-control decks, such as Doran, Jenara, Maelstrom Wanderer, Sigarda, Gaddock Teeg, Captain Sisay, Varolz, Wort, Iname, and Karador, you have to accept that the "Classic Control" approach is a lofty and impossible goal. Your opponent will resolve spells. You will run low on cards. So how should we play Wydwen against these decks??
Think of Wydwen as Vendilion clique, that gets to play Black for card advantage, tutors, and removal, but comes out a turn slower. But just like Vendilion Clique, you play tempo against the non-control decks. Though the article is old, much of Emether's Wydwen Manifesto largely holds true in many of Wydwen's matchups. You play on the razor's edge, countering only what needs to be countered and remove only what needs to be removed. You rarely tapout after turn 2, and you cautiously work to stay one step ahead of your opponent for seven straight turns.
However, Emether's article and decklist do not properly combat the realities of today's control decks. That is why I've written this article: I've found the strict tempo approach to Wydwen to be just as one-sided as the all control approach. That's why this deck is sort of a mashup of two styles, control and tempo. By playing cards like Thoughtseize, Skeletal Scrying, Runechanter's Pike, Bitterblossom, and Muddle the Mixture, we have weapons in the control mirror at our disposal. But at the same time, Toxic Deluge, Far // Away, Umezawa's Jitte, and Exclude allow us to stay one turn ahead of our more aggressive opponents. Each of the cards in this deck that differs from Emether's famous list are chosen with extensive thought and care. I must stress that I greatly respect his decklist, but respectively disagree with how his deck plays out in the current meta. This is not Vendilion Clique; we cannot drop our commander early enough to play tempo against many aggro decks. We sometimes have to cast Damanation However, we can still play the tempo game against Doran and Jenara via spot removals and Mana Leak while playing a fierce draw-go style against decks that try to go too big, like Thraximundar, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, and Oloro Ageless Ascetic.
Tips and tricks:
Resolving Wydwen, the Biting Gale in control matchups is easily the hardest part about this deck. If Wydwen is countered on turn 4, and you don't have a Jace, the Mind Sculptor to resolve on turn 5 to punish their tempo play, then winning the game will feel nearly impossible. Make sure to play Wydwen when you have two mana open to protect her with a counter or so you can bounce her in response to removal.
Do not kill or counter things you don't need to. Most of your cards trade one-for-one with your opponent, so if you waste your time removing threats weaker than Wydwen, you're going to not have a hand when you need it most.
Matchups:
NEW UPDATE COMING SOON
Thank you for reading, and I hope this thread can start some thoughtful discussion on playing the control style of Wydwen.
Please feel free to post Tournament summaries and analysis of the deck in comments!
-Skankstar
You'll probably cover it in your matchups section, but what would you say is your biggest weakness? I know blue/black has trouble with equipment/artifacts in general, but are there any other things you have problems with?
I've updated the OP with the material that was supposed to be in it from day one.
The GWX matchup is always very close to 50/50, and there are two main factors that influence it from tournament to tournament: 1) Whether you play Dystopia or not, and 2) how good their hand is. Your hand is usually full of the same thing. Basically, it's their game to win or lose.
Vendilion Clique isn't as difficult as it looks. Accept the fact that you'll win with less than 10 life and you should be fine, because you operate better in the lategame than they do. You draw more cards.
Zur, the Enchanter is surprisingly easy to beat, because you have so many weapons against him (thank you Sudden Death) and he absolutely needs Zur to win.
Would you mind expanding a bit on the Thalia matchup? I have played this matchup probably 10-16 times and have only won one game. You have made some great observations in that we can't control everything and we can race the lesser dudes but in my experience, more often than not they are able to flood the board with weenies and win. Cavern of Souls is absolutely brutal here as well.
I must confess that I'm new to the deck and am running Emether's list with a few changes of my own (including Muddle the Mixture, which is an incredible card) but I don't see how that matchup is anywhere near 55%.
Also wondering how Flash of Insight has been playing out for you? My initial impressions of this card in-game weren't great. I was paying 3 to draw a card and found myself in situations where I didn't want to be exiling instants/sorceries in the GY (Runechanter's Pike) more often than not. Similarly, while I love Skeletal Scrying I was never in a position to lose life and exile cards that would likely win me the game, especially after including Muddle to get the Pike.
USAstrat: First of all, hello and thanks for responding.
Regarding the Thalia matchup, you will lose without sufficient removal. This was also one of my first observations when playing the tempo-based list that I believe you mentioned you were playing (Emether-style). If you're not playing Mystical Tutor because it loses card advantage, then here's where you should reconsider it. It's simply too good for finding Damnation. Furthermore, if you find decks like Thalia to be your hardest matchups, go ahead and play Dystopia. The card is absurd when it's good.
As for tips on playing against Mono-White Thalia or Isamaru, you have to exploit your inherent card-quantity advantage (you lose in card quality). Therefore, keep hands with less lands and more removal/counters. Eliminate the formidable threats, and honestly, do NOT kill Thalia once she's on the board. You're wasting cards on their card-free general. But if you can counter her the first time around with Force Spike or Mana Leak, more power to you.
Regarding Flash of Insight. This is definitely a card that takes time to get used to. Always cast it for X=1 the first time around, of course. The trick with this and Skeletal Scrying is to exile things you'd never Snapcaster Mage anyways. Think Miscalculate, Fact or Fiction, or Spell Pierce. Only save key cards like Counterspell, removals, and Cryptic Command.
On life loss... you can't win without it. Most games I lose, it's because I killed myself. TBH, in matchups against white-weenies and creatures, you should Muddle for Jitte, which will help mitigate some life loss. I find it to be a huge mistake to take out Skeletal Scrying. The card advantage is amazing. You have 30 life, so it's key to use it.
EDIT: And Spellstutter Sprite is your friend in this matchup. Forgot that one. She's sweet.
These are mostly in response to the legendary rule changes and the meta changes. Diabolic Edict and Baleful Strix have come in as new weapons vs. Geist, Sigarda, and Thrun. I found that Isochron Scepter was simply too risky and often resulted in saddening card disadvantage. Lastly, I will be trying out Divert over Flusterstorm, because Divert shows serious promise in the Sigarda matchup, while retaining effectiveness in counter-wars.
Thank you! Oh, and the 1v1 tournament I will be attending has been pushed back to August 31, which is a shame. But I will not forget to post results, I can promise that.
Really great to see this deck being "revived" (as Emether's original thread hasn't been getting much activity lately.
I really like some of the choices that are different from Emether's version (Spellstutter, Bitterblossom, and Standstill, especially), but I have some questions about some of the other choices:
Chain of Vapor
Can someone explain what's so great about this card? I can see that the "chaining" effect will rarely be a problem for this kind of deck, since it doesn't play many permanents. So, is the strength of this card mainly its cheap casting cost? I would think that Into the Roil is stronger due to its flexibility.
Also, this particular decklist is a bit heavier on permanents (4 equipments rather than just Pike and SOFAF, as well as playing Treachery), making it a bit more likely for the opponent to use the chaining effect on us.
(Finally, scenarios where you'd make your own permanent as the first target, and then chain it to target an opponent's card would be rare).
Phyrexian Revoker
How has this been working for you? I never really considered it, but it seems interesting with Muddle.
Phyrexian Metamorph
What do you think about this after the legendary rules change? Even before the changes, 3 mana for a sorcery-speed removal doesn't seem great, and I'm not sure that there are enough non-general good copy targets for it.
Liliana of the Veil
It's certainly a powerful card, but I'm not sure that it fits well in this deck because I don't think we have many cards that can put the discard ability in our favour. I think I'd rather play Phyrexian Arena for more easily-generated card advantage. Both are difficult for control decks to deal with.
Dismiss and Exclude
Any reason for not including these cards? They can be as good as Cryptic in many situations and contribute towards generating card advantage. I suppose they're a bit costly?
Slaughter Pact
Just a card I've been thinking about recently. Opinions on this one? 2B might be steep to commit to earlier in the game, but it's a surprise and the cost is more manageable later on.
Mishra's Factory and Faerie Conclave
Just 2 more manlands to complement Standstill and heavier equipment count. I really like how the Factory blocks as a 3/3 -- it's stronger than Mutavault in its role, unless you need to up your faerie count for Spellstutter Sprite. Faerie Conclave is a decent manland that can also become a faerie when needed.
(Sorry for offtopic, I registered to say this. SkankStar would you mind PM'ing me information about the upcoming tournament mentioned in your OP? I live near Michigan and have been itching for some competitive action since there is next to none where I live. Thanks!)
Chain of Vapor is a powerful card because it allows us to bounce turn 1 mana dorks/rocks very easily, heavily disrupting our opponent's tempo. The "downside" is rarely ever a factor. Though Into the Roil replaces itself when kicked, it is cost intensive, which in turn makes it narrower than Chain.
Liliana of the Veil is a powerful card that dominates multiple important matchups, like Zur, Animar, and Geist. The discard effect on her is often used just once so that she can make our opponents sacrifice another creature.
Dismiss and Exclude are piss-poor against blue decks, which happen to dominate the format. While Exclude is narrow in its targets, Dismiss is far too expensive. These cards are greedy. Yes, they will destroy non-blue decks, but I don't think that is worth them being dead draws against blue decks.
Slaughter Pact is okay, but unnecessary. I don't feel like I need another removal spell just yet, and if I did, I'd probably add Chainer's Edict first.
Mishra's Factory and Faerie Conclave are both cards I have tested. Factory is very strong and will probably be replacing the useless Mouth of Ronom that has been in my deck for way too long. Faerie Conclave, produces U, but it also comes into play tapped. Despite also being Faerie, I'm not sure if it's good enough.
So I feel weird responding to myself but it is relevant. I have some cards replacing others and one I'm considering and would like to open discussion on.
1. Island going out, Cephalid Coliseum is in. I need more ways of filtering my hand when holding cards like Damnation and Mystical Tutor in the control matchups. The life loss is largely irrelevant and can be solved by Urborg if it becomes problematic. I honestly think this format gives control decks too much life, so I really don't think it is an issue.
2. Mouth of Ronom is out, Mishra's Factory is in. I need more manlands in the control mirrors to make Standstill worth it. I also think it is a stellar blocker against creature decks and it can kill Geist in combat with its tap effect. Mouth, however, has been largely irrelevant and too hard to activate. If only it could target players and kill planeswalkers
3. I'm heavily considering playing Chainer's Edict. I would like some input on people who have used this card, and to which card I should take out in its place. I feel as though I could benefit from more removal that goes through hexproof. As a 2CMC spell, its sorcery speed is hardly an issue. And the possible card advantage it generates in the late game is intriguing.
Lastly, the tournament I am attending is in Ann Arbor, MI, at Get Your Game On. It will take place on Sunday, September 1st. Entry fee is $15-20 (I forget which), and among other prizes, an FTV 20 will be granted to the winner. Please come if you can or PM me if you have questions!
I didn't have a good experience with Cephalid Coliseum (but when it's good, it's really good). The life loss really added up, and it's not very likely that you'll draw Urborg at the same time. Tutoring for Urborg is a bit of waste -- usually I'm looking for Wasteland effects or a Riptide Laboratory.
Mouth of Ronom has been fine for me. I very rarely have to use it, but the threat of it being used is good. I don't experience enough trouble with lack of coloured mana sources for me to want to remove this card.
I never tried Chainer's, but the sorcery speed bugs me a bit (similarly, I'm not convinced about Liliana of the Veil, but I'll test her a bit more). The flashback is very, very expensive -- I feel like if you can afford to tap out for 7, you've either already won or already lost. Edict effects in general have been just okay when I drew them (I run only Diabolic Edict and Far // Away). 4 edict effects seem heavy. They're good vs. Geist, but I don't think they're as good as spot removal in other matchups, and I'd prefer to avoid playing anything at sorcery speed unless it's really swingy (like Damnation, or equipments).
Won the first with Hatred on the 6th turn
Lost the second to a Sigarda I couldn't do anything against.
And I've played for the draw on the third. Since Wydwen was Nevermore'd lol
So I'm sorry I never truly provided an extensive tournament report. I've been busy with school and work. The tournament I attended had a good showing, with 32 people. Though there were no Iname or GAAIV lists, and the only Zur player was a novice, every other popular general had a showing. I made Top 4, for I lost to my brother's Radha deck. I can say with confidence that if I had played any of the other decks in the Top 4 (Teysa or Doran) I would have won. I also made some mistakes against Clucky's Radha deck that I still regret. If you would like a more comprehensive tournament report from Clucky (the winner), then feel free to check out his post.
Moving on to updates and changes!
Changes
Divert is out and Chainer's Edict is in. Divert was not countering enough spells, and for the tournament I felt as though I needed more removal. I've been happy with this change. Tapping out on turn two, especially on the play, or tapping two on turn four with two mana open to cast chainer's edict has been quite nice.
Theros Updates
Swan's Song: This spell is awesome and I will be playing it for sure. Since the flier is only a 2/2, we don't have to worry about Wydwen dying (unlike with Gilded Drake). It also reliably counters Survival of the Fittest, Oath of Druids, Sylvan Library, Bitterblossom, Standstill, and Tutors. A very strong spell.
Hero's Downfall: This will most likely be replacing Chainer's Edict. As seen with Sudden Death, 1BB instant removals can be strong if they come with a special bonus. Split second and Planeswalker removal are definitely special bonuses. Wydwen generally loses when an opponent resolves a powerful Planeswalker that won't die to the next Wydwen attack. This card offers an important out to Planeswalkers, as well as another unconditional removal spell. I like it.
If I haven't mentioned a card from Theros, it most likely means I don't like it. Cancel with scry 1 and dual lands that enter tapped and scry 1 ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. I love scry as much as the next guy, and scry 2 would make me reconsider, but that's not the case.
I like Swan Song, but I'm nervous that it will really hurt our tempo. It's almost like skipping a turn, since the 2/2 will at worst buy them a turn.
I also think Hero's Downfall might be too expensive for what it does. It does give us an extra answer (besides counterspells) to planeswalkers, but we already run so many counters that I think we're okay with them.
I don't like any of the other cards in Theros for this deck, so I won't mention them.
I like Swan Song, but I'm nervous that it will really hurt our tempo. It's almost like skipping a turn, since the 2/2 will at worst buy them a turn.
You do have an excellent point. Some of my friends think I'm crazy for thinking this card is worth it. So why am I so optimistic about it? It stops broken plays. Sometimes I feel like Duel Commander has the speed of Standard but with the banlist of Vintage. Therefore, sometimes a certain few cards can spell almost immediate demise for Wydwen. For example, Phyrexian Arena, Demonic Tutor or Worldly Tutor, Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, Sneak Attack, etc. Swan's Song is the ultimate threat insurance, at the downside of being weak against mediocre spells, which I believe may be a necessary tradeoff. Though the better option may be Spell Snare, I want to try Swan Song first.
I also think Hero's Downfall might be too expensive for what it does. It does give us an extra answer (besides counterspells) to planeswalkers, but we already run so many counters that I think we're okay with them.
I think spot removal is widely underestimated in this format. Therefore, sometimes Split Second or the ability to target Planeswalkers is all it takes for me to consider it.
Regarding the Scry Dual, I think I may test it for a few weeks instead of an Island to see if its as bad as I think it is.
Baleful Strix is still in for now, it's just bad vs. non-Aggro decks. I actually like Forbidden Alchemy over Flash of Insight. I'm aware that seems weird... I think I just like being able to see four cards the first time around.
Also, I'm bringing back an oldie into my deck for further testing: Brainstorm. I like it so far... protects my hand against disruption, and I usually have a fetch. But I'm wondering if it's better than Chain of Vapor or Flash of Insight. Normally I hate cantrips in 99 card decks, but Brainstorm is more than that.
General deck critiques - just listing what I think, cutting out the fluff - take what you want
Lands - here is where you have a lot of opportunity for growth. it really isn’t hard to get 2 colors rolling, especially when your main color is blue. if you decrease the amount of fixing non-basics in your deck you can increase the number of winning lands. ie. you cut on the cheeky lands (reflecting pool, bog, minamo, cabal, pit, muta vault, etc) and then u up the amount of basics u run and in turn play things like scrying sheets (op), tectonic edge, rishadan port. play total 38-40 not including chrome mox
Counters - looks like you have a good suite, possible inclusions - spell snare, mental misstep, daze, swan song, forbid, scry counter, commandeer, shadow of doubt (this card and be absurd), exclude ; cards on my chopping block; divert, flusterstorm, trickbind (I love stifle, though being 2 mana really hurts your turn one ownage), power sink
Creatures - looks solid, spellstutter and revoker are on my block with baleful strix being awesome, possibly try nightshade familiar
Removals - chopping; snuffout, diabolic edict, chain of vapor, cyclonic. thoughts - into the roil, innocent blood, confiscate/take possession (it may not be your favorite, but this will give you good outs to things u/b struggles against), piracy charm, consuming vaopors
disruption - great
Card draw - chopping block forbidn alchemy, additions - you really have to play ponder, preordain, and brainstorm - they give you consistency at little to know cost. think twice, thirst for knowledge (this card is great at draw 3 discard 2 instant), jace beleren
Gamebreakers - chopping, bitterblossom, standstill, runechanters pike, nihil spellbomb - inclusions consecrated sphinx and just lose the rest for more consistency in your counters and draw
General deck critiques - just listing what I think, cutting out the fluff - take what you want
Lands - here is where you have a lot of opportunity for growth. it really isn’t hard to get 2 colors rolling, especially when your main color is blue. if you decrease the amount of fixing non-basics in your deck you can increase the number of winning lands. ie. you cut on the cheeky lands (reflecting pool, bog, minamo, cabal, pit, muta vault, etc) and then u up the amount of basics u run and in turn play things like scrying sheets (op), tectonic edge, rishadan port. play total 38-40 not including chrome mox
These "cheeky" lands provide vital utility at little cost. The benefits of basics and Scrying Sheets are quite low in comparison. I play Tectonic Edge. Chrome Mox is unnecessary and creates card disadvantage. Rishadan Port is not for control decks, but for aggressive decks and stax decks.
Counters - looks like you have a good suite, possible inclusions - spell snare, mental misstep, daze, swan song, forbid, scry counter, commandeer, shadow of doubt (this card and be absurd), exclude ; cards on my chopping block; divert, flusterstorm, trickbind (I love stifle, though being 2 mana really hurts your turn one ownage), power sink
You've mentioned multiple cards I already play. Thanks? I've tested Shadow of Doubt... it's narrow. Yes, it does cantrip. But it usually only cantrips. Exclude is fine but narrow, just like Spell Snare. Mental Misstep, Daze, Forbid, Commandeer, and others are not good enough at all.
Creatures - looks solid, spellstutter and revoker are on my block with baleful strix being awesome, possibly try nightshade familiar
Nightshade Familiar? That's not even a card. Revoker is very good.
Removals - chopping; snuffout, diabolic edict, chain of vapor, cyclonic. thoughts - into the roil, innocent blood, confiscate/take possession (it may not be your favorite, but this will give you good outs to things u/b struggles against), piracy charm, consuming vaopors
Clearly you've never played with Snuffout. And Piracy Charm is a joke I hope.
disruption - great
Yay.
Card draw - chopping block forbidn alchemy, additions - you really have to play ponder, preordain, and brainstorm - they give you consistency at little to know cost. think twice, thirst for knowledge (this card is great at draw 3 discard 2 instant), jace beleren
Three cantrips in a 99 card deck is not consistency. Think Twice is a card I've extensively talked about: It's too slow and doesn't provide card quality.
Gamebreakers - chopping, bitterblossom, standstill, runechanters pike, nihil spellbomb - inclusions consecrated sphinx and just lose the rest for more consistency in your counters and draw
What?
Now it seems like your trolling. I really hope you don't think cutting Pike and Bitterblossom for Consecrated Sphinx is a good idea. I don't even...
Though I appreciate the feedback, I'd treat it with a lot more thought and respect if you didn't just randomly name cards without any explanations. Most of your suggestions seem very out of place, as if you didn't read my main post. You even told me to play a few cards I already play.
The point of "General deck critiques - just listing what I think, cutting out the fluff - take what you want" was to do just that, you taking it as a personal attack is on your end. I suggest you play under the assumption you are wrong and try some cards out - even if you don't think you are. It will either confirm your initial thoughts or expand your horizons. For example in terms of your deck building you are a 100% wrong on not including brainstorm, ponder, and preordain. Just for a re-read you are a 100% wrong on not including brainstorm, ponder, and preordain. As you are probably raging up a cool gif, I'm not berating you - settle down. You are just wrong and it's ok. Put these in your deck and think about how the game is changing when you play them, why are you playing them, and when are you playing them. As for the rest of the deck I hope you keep it in flux and learn from it. l2u.avi
The point of "General deck critiques - just listing what I think, cutting out the fluff - take what you want" was to do just that, you taking it as a personal attack is on your end. I suggest you play under the assumption you are wrong and try some cards out - even if you don't think you are. It will either confirm your initial thoughts or expand your horizons. For example in terms of your deck building you are a 100% wrong on not including brainstorm, ponder, and preordain. Just for a re-read you are a 100% wrong on not including brainstorm, ponder, and preordain. As you are probably raging up a cool gif, I'm not berating you - settle down. You are just wrong and it's ok. Put these in your deck and think about how the game is changing when you play them, why are you playing them, and when are you playing them. As for the rest of the deck I hope you keep it in flux and learn from it. l2u.avi
Excuse my snarkiness, but it's not because I felt like I was being attacked. I love general critiques that open up discussion. And I change things around a lot. I've played almost every card you suggested that I try out. But I don't want this forum post to be entirely about MY decklist. I'd like to open up discussion on this deck as a whole, with reasons and explanations behind card choices. For example, I'd love to hear how other people like playing controversial cards like Notion Thief, Shadow of Doubt, Phyrexian Arena, Spell Snare, Liliana of the Veil, Gitaxian Probe and others.
No multicolored deck on this forum wants to play Scrying Sheets though. I'm not the only player who finds Ponder and Preordain weak in this format (I'm currently testing Brainstorm to see if I have enough shuffle effects for it). So when I respond as such, it's because I know I'm not wrong. They may be playable cards, but they aren't "must haves."
TL;DR: I'm not angry, I'm disappointed that you assume your suggestions have merit without any reasoning to back them up.
Anyone still playing this deck? I haven't had the opportunity to play 1v1 EDH for a while, but with the new cards from C13 (and the changing meta), I thought it might be nice to discuss how that affects Wydwen and her viability.
I'm particularly excited about Toxic Deluge being like a second Damnation for us. Traditionally, black was lacking in strong sweepers compared to white, but I think card will be a very strong inclusion.
The other notable card is True-Name Nemesis. It may not mesh super well with our general-damage based game plan, but it's unquestionably a power card and I think worth playing. It's especially nice to hold equipment, which we play a bit of, sometimes (I believe Skankstar and I play Jitte, while Emether does not.
I now believe that Hero's Downfall is a worthy inclusion (as Skankstar mentioned in an earlier post), and I'm undecided about Liliana of the Veil. I should be able to do some testing with the 4 cards I mentioned above over the next month.
EDIT: Do we just fold to Derevi, Empyrial Tactician? Derevi can just tap down Wydwen, block next turn, and repeat. I can't think of any answers to Derevi that we run right now besides Vedalken Shackles and Sword of Feast and Famine. I'm very concerned about this matchup because it looks like Derevi will be a popular choice in the post-C13 meta, and he can stall out Wydwen (one of our only wincons) indefinitely.
Can anyone think of some appropriate solutions, or share any experience playing against this general? I would expect that decks like Zur and Geist may have similar troubles.
Hi, i was reading this thread and it helped me a lot.
I'm building a wydwen and i'm using a list based in your list with some changes that i liked in this list
“there is nothing outside of yourself that can ever enable you to get better, stronger, richer, quicker, or smarter. Everything is within. Everything exists. Seek nothing outside of yourself.”
― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
Hi, i was reading this thread and it helped me a lot.
I'm building a wydwen and i'm using a list based in your list with some changes that i liked in this list
what you think about this list? why he dont use bitterblossom,shackles,phyrexian arena?
Do you have recent good results with youy list?
I was excited to see this list as well, looks like Wydwen is viable again, after the Derevi ban. Recently I started playing a similar list to this one, just to try it out -- it's quite a departure from Emether's old list. I made a few changes for my meta, such as no Shriekmaw... I also dislike Serum Visions and am not really sold on Dimir Charm or Soul Manipulation. Some cards I am playing that Alexandre chose not to include Spellstutter Sprite, Flash of Insight, Runechanter's Pike, and Flusterstorm.
Bitterblossom was not that good in my testing. It's a very slow card, and I often didn't even want to play it when I drew it late, as I preferred to keep 2 more mana open to do something. It's good on turn 2, but then you can't counter their next play, which could be dangerous.
Vedalken Shackles needs Islands to work, and this list doesn't play too many of them. Shackles also costs 3 on our own turn, making it more of a late game card. Looks like Alexandre has chosen to play Treachery for this kind of effect instead (though Treachery is a bit more vulnerable to blowouts than Shackles). Emether's Wydwen list (you can search it up on these forums) used to have Shackles over Treachery, though. Both can be strong cards.
Phyrexian Arena is another slow card that makes us pay 3 on our own turn for an effect that isn't very impactful until several turns later. I'm far from an expert, but it seems like Liliana of the Veil differs in that it has an immediate impact (the -2) and/or requires answering/management in the next 2-3 turns, lest she becomes able to -2 again or even -6.
Hey I've been playtesting this deck the last 2 weeks and While I agree with the shreikmaw cut in this list (for stifle) the other cuts you made are a little off base. We don't run many lands and we need cards like visions to even out out plans on the early turn. This is the main reason te deck plays Nihil spell bomb. Not just antisnapcaster tech
Dimir charm fits this role but often times kills opposing bobs or lotus cobras or mana elves. The card also has the ability to stop a wrath when we need it to. Very flexible.
And soul manipulation is a second copy of exclude about half the time. Which actually makes it pretty good.
Anyway just my thoughts!
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MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
Hey I've been playtesting this deck the last 2 weeks and While I agree with the shreikmaw cut in this list (for stifle) the other cuts you made are a little off base. We don't run many lands and we need cards like visions to even out out plans on the early turn. This is the main reason te deck plays Nihil spell bomb. Not just antisnapcaster tech
Dimir charm fits this role but often times kills opposing bobs or lotus cobras or mana elves. The card also has the ability to stop a wrath when we need it to. Very flexible.
And soul manipulation is a second copy of exclude about half the time. Which actually makes it pretty good.
Anyway just my thoughts!
I know the list doesn't play a lot of lands, thus making filtering spells like Serum Visions more important. I just think Serum Visions is so bad that I would rather be down a filtering spell than have to use it. Maybe I'm wrong though.
I think I should probably try Dimir Charm again, it is very flexible as you mentioned (though the "filtering" on it is very bad except in desperate circumstances).
I'm just concerned that this deck doesn't play enough creatures to make Soul Manipulation better than a 3-mana Remove Soul half the time.
I had some bad experiences with Stifle, so I'm not playing it right now, but it can be very strong.
The other part of my cuts was just to make space for cards like Flash of Insight and Runechanter's Pike, which I consider to be very, very strong. I forgot to mention as well that I am playing Impulse over the Serum Visions, keeping the number of filtering spells intact, but slightly more expensive (minus a Dimir Charm).
You can try Opt or Gitaxian Probe instead of serum visions for filtering. Stifle + Trickbind + Shadow of Doubt is your trio of cheap land destruction spells (against fetches). But those are mostly for the tempo shell version.
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Wydwen, the Biting Gale is a commander that players have seen time and time again at tournaments, and before the printing of Cavern of Souls, used to consistently post good results. The deck became popular off its extended use of Bitterblossom and Mana Drain, and because of the strength of Decree of Pain against Edric decks (before he was banned).
Needless to say, times have changed. GW decks now have access to a host of tools they never used to have against control (Cavern, Voice, etc.), and can often resolve an abundance of threats, even through a hand full of counterspells. Decks like Imperial Animar, Dreadnought Varolz, and Oath 5CC control have created a new class of of combo-aggro decks that can present game-winning threats by turn 3. Karador and Iname grave decks have been perfected, and are no laughing matter, consistently posting good results when proper measures are not taken against them.
So what about control? The standard approach right now is to be playing both Blue and White (See Geist and GAAIV) UW offers board clear, counters, and removal of all kinds. But what it doesn't offer hurts it the most: card advantage. UW classic control has trouble keeping up a steady flow of counters, and its tutors are lackluster. This leads us to another grouping of classic control decks: Nin, the Pain Artist and Wydwen, the Biting Gale. I will be talking about the latter today.
Note: This is a classic control approach to Wydwen, and not Emether's tempo version. Though Emether's tempo Wydwen was effective in the older meta, Wydwen is simply too slow now for the same play style. More often than not, Wydwen players must delay playing their commander because they're too busy countering early threats.
So why play Wydwen??
Why not play her?
Before anymore words, here's the decklist.
9 Island
2 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Underground River
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 River of Tears
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Command Tower
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mutavault
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Dust Bowl
1 Force of Will
1 Daze
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Force Spike
1 Memory Lapse
1 Remove Soul
1 Counterspell
1 Miscalculation
1 Mana Leak
1 Remand
1 Negate
1 Exclude
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Rewind
1 Cryptic Command
1 Logic Knot
1 Condescend
Creatures (6)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Baleful Strix
1 Dark Confidant
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
Removals and Bounce (11)
1 Snuff Out
1 Dismember
1 Ulcerate
1 Go For the Throat
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Far // Away
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Damnation
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Repeal
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Hymn to Tourach
Card Draw and Tutor (13)
1 Ancestral Visions
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Night's Whisper
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Serum Visions
1 Gitaxian Probe
Gamebreakers and Utility (Enchantments, Planeswalkers, and Artifacts) (7)
1 Jace, the Mindscultpor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bitterblossom
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
This decklist is up to date as of October 12th, 2014.
Notable Inclusions:
Notable Exclusions:
Dystopia: When this card is good, it's sooo good. If you know your meta has a strong GW presence, play this card.
Think Twice: This is a bad Flash of Insight. In most MUs it's bad, in the control MU it's mediocre. Although reliable, it's just literally not powerful enough. It's sad to see such a fun card just not be strong enough.
Recoil and Into the Roil: Recoil is only good on the play, for bouncing lands. Otherwise, it's very lackluster. Into the Roil is slightly better and shines against Animar, but it simply costs too much mana.
Expedition Map: I'm comfortable playing around Cavern without this, or playing without Cavern in the control MU. Other pilots of this deck prefer its inclusion, which is fine.
Sapphire Medallion: Ugh. This card. It doesn't do anything but make several of your spells cheaper. Explaining all the reasons I hate this card would take awhile, but essentially, I hate it because it hurts your card advantage and your ability to keep gas flowing.
Notion Thief: This just isn't reliable enough. Against very many decks, it is useless (or turns once-useless removal online).
Game Plan
Playing Wydwen in today's environment is slightly awkward. In matchups against other non-control decks, such as Doran, Jenara, Maelstrom Wanderer, Sigarda, Gaddock Teeg, Captain Sisay, Varolz, Wort, Iname, and Karador, you have to accept that the "Classic Control" approach is a lofty and impossible goal. Your opponent will resolve spells. You will run low on cards. So how should we play Wydwen against these decks??
Think of Wydwen as Vendilion clique, that gets to play Black for card advantage, tutors, and removal, but comes out a turn slower. But just like Vendilion Clique, you play tempo against the non-control decks. Though the article is old, much of Emether's Wydwen Manifesto largely holds true in many of Wydwen's matchups. You play on the razor's edge, countering only what needs to be countered and remove only what needs to be removed. You rarely tapout after turn 2, and you cautiously work to stay one step ahead of your opponent for seven straight turns.
However, Emether's article and decklist do not properly combat the realities of today's control decks. That is why I've written this article: I've found the strict tempo approach to Wydwen to be just as one-sided as the all control approach. That's why this deck is sort of a mashup of two styles, control and tempo. By playing cards like Thoughtseize, Skeletal Scrying, Runechanter's Pike, Bitterblossom, and Muddle the Mixture, we have weapons in the control mirror at our disposal. But at the same time, Toxic Deluge, Far // Away, Umezawa's Jitte, and Exclude allow us to stay one turn ahead of our more aggressive opponents. Each of the cards in this deck that differs from Emether's famous list are chosen with extensive thought and care. I must stress that I greatly respect his decklist, but respectively disagree with how his deck plays out in the current meta. This is not Vendilion Clique; we cannot drop our commander early enough to play tempo against many aggro decks. We sometimes have to cast Damanation However, we can still play the tempo game against Doran and Jenara via spot removals and Mana Leak while playing a fierce draw-go style against decks that try to go too big, like Thraximundar, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, and Oloro Ageless Ascetic.
Tips and tricks:
Resolving Wydwen, the Biting Gale in control matchups is easily the hardest part about this deck. If Wydwen is countered on turn 4, and you don't have a Jace, the Mind Sculptor to resolve on turn 5 to punish their tempo play, then winning the game will feel nearly impossible. Make sure to play Wydwen when you have two mana open to protect her with a counter or so you can bounce her in response to removal.
Do not kill or counter things you don't need to. Most of your cards trade one-for-one with your opponent, so if you waste your time removing threats weaker than Wydwen, you're going to not have a hand when you need it most.
Matchups:
NEW UPDATE COMING SOON
Thank you for reading, and I hope this thread can start some thoughtful discussion on playing the control style of Wydwen.
Please feel free to post Tournament summaries and analysis of the deck in comments!
-Skankstar
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
The GWX matchup is always very close to 50/50, and there are two main factors that influence it from tournament to tournament: 1) Whether you play Dystopia or not, and 2) how good their hand is. Your hand is usually full of the same thing. Basically, it's their game to win or lose.
Vendilion Clique isn't as difficult as it looks. Accept the fact that you'll win with less than 10 life and you should be fine, because you operate better in the lategame than they do. You draw more cards.
Zur, the Enchanter is surprisingly easy to beat, because you have so many weapons against him (thank you Sudden Death) and he absolutely needs Zur to win.
I must confess that I'm new to the deck and am running Emether's list with a few changes of my own (including Muddle the Mixture, which is an incredible card) but I don't see how that matchup is anywhere near 55%.
Also wondering how Flash of Insight has been playing out for you? My initial impressions of this card in-game weren't great. I was paying 3 to draw a card and found myself in situations where I didn't want to be exiling instants/sorceries in the GY (Runechanter's Pike) more often than not. Similarly, while I love Skeletal Scrying I was never in a position to lose life and exile cards that would likely win me the game, especially after including Muddle to get the Pike.
Thanks for your help!
[360][Unpowered] USAstrat's Cube
Draft my cube on CubeTutor!
Modern: UWR UWR Control
EDH: WBR Kaalia of the Vast
Regarding the Thalia matchup, you will lose without sufficient removal. This was also one of my first observations when playing the tempo-based list that I believe you mentioned you were playing (Emether-style). If you're not playing Mystical Tutor because it loses card advantage, then here's where you should reconsider it. It's simply too good for finding Damnation. Furthermore, if you find decks like Thalia to be your hardest matchups, go ahead and play Dystopia. The card is absurd when it's good.
As for tips on playing against Mono-White Thalia or Isamaru, you have to exploit your inherent card-quantity advantage (you lose in card quality). Therefore, keep hands with less lands and more removal/counters. Eliminate the formidable threats, and honestly, do NOT kill Thalia once she's on the board. You're wasting cards on their card-free general. But if you can counter her the first time around with Force Spike or Mana Leak, more power to you.
Regarding Flash of Insight. This is definitely a card that takes time to get used to. Always cast it for X=1 the first time around, of course. The trick with this and Skeletal Scrying is to exile things you'd never Snapcaster Mage anyways. Think Miscalculate, Fact or Fiction, or Spell Pierce. Only save key cards like Counterspell, removals, and Cryptic Command.
On life loss... you can't win without it. Most games I lose, it's because I killed myself. TBH, in matchups against white-weenies and creatures, you should Muddle for Jitte, which will help mitigate some life loss. I find it to be a huge mistake to take out Skeletal Scrying. The card advantage is amazing. You have 30 life, so it's key to use it.
EDIT: And Spellstutter Sprite is your friend in this matchup. Forgot that one. She's sweet.
These are mostly in response to the legendary rule changes and the meta changes. Diabolic Edict and Baleful Strix have come in as new weapons vs. Geist, Sigarda, and Thrun. I found that Isochron Scepter was simply too risky and often resulted in saddening card disadvantage. Lastly, I will be trying out Divert over Flusterstorm, because Divert shows serious promise in the Sigarda matchup, while retaining effectiveness in counter-wars.
Thank you! Oh, and the 1v1 tournament I will be attending has been pushed back to August 31, which is a shame. But I will not forget to post results, I can promise that.
I really like some of the choices that are different from Emether's version (Spellstutter, Bitterblossom, and Standstill, especially), but I have some questions about some of the other choices:
Chain of Vapor
Can someone explain what's so great about this card? I can see that the "chaining" effect will rarely be a problem for this kind of deck, since it doesn't play many permanents. So, is the strength of this card mainly its cheap casting cost? I would think that Into the Roil is stronger due to its flexibility.
Also, this particular decklist is a bit heavier on permanents (4 equipments rather than just Pike and SOFAF, as well as playing Treachery), making it a bit more likely for the opponent to use the chaining effect on us.
(Finally, scenarios where you'd make your own permanent as the first target, and then chain it to target an opponent's card would be rare).
Phyrexian Revoker
How has this been working for you? I never really considered it, but it seems interesting with Muddle.
Phyrexian Metamorph
What do you think about this after the legendary rules change? Even before the changes, 3 mana for a sorcery-speed removal doesn't seem great, and I'm not sure that there are enough non-general good copy targets for it.
Liliana of the Veil
It's certainly a powerful card, but I'm not sure that it fits well in this deck because I don't think we have many cards that can put the discard ability in our favour. I think I'd rather play Phyrexian Arena for more easily-generated card advantage. Both are difficult for control decks to deal with.
Dismiss and Exclude
Any reason for not including these cards? They can be as good as Cryptic in many situations and contribute towards generating card advantage. I suppose they're a bit costly?
Slaughter Pact
Just a card I've been thinking about recently. Opinions on this one? 2B might be steep to commit to earlier in the game, but it's a surprise and the cost is more manageable later on.
Mishra's Factory and Faerie Conclave
Just 2 more manlands to complement Standstill and heavier equipment count. I really like how the Factory blocks as a 3/3 -- it's stronger than Mutavault in its role, unless you need to up your faerie count for Spellstutter Sprite. Faerie Conclave is a decent manland that can also become a faerie when needed.
Chain of Vapor is a powerful card because it allows us to bounce turn 1 mana dorks/rocks very easily, heavily disrupting our opponent's tempo. The "downside" is rarely ever a factor. Though Into the Roil replaces itself when kicked, it is cost intensive, which in turn makes it narrower than Chain.
Phyrexian Revoker has been amazing and makes me want to include Pithing Needle as well.
Liliana of the Veil is a powerful card that dominates multiple important matchups, like Zur, Animar, and Geist. The discard effect on her is often used just once so that she can make our opponents sacrifice another creature.
Dismiss and Exclude are piss-poor against blue decks, which happen to dominate the format. While Exclude is narrow in its targets, Dismiss is far too expensive. These cards are greedy. Yes, they will destroy non-blue decks, but I don't think that is worth them being dead draws against blue decks.
Slaughter Pact is okay, but unnecessary. I don't feel like I need another removal spell just yet, and if I did, I'd probably add Chainer's Edict first.
Mishra's Factory and Faerie Conclave are both cards I have tested. Factory is very strong and will probably be replacing the useless Mouth of Ronom that has been in my deck for way too long. Faerie Conclave, produces U, but it also comes into play tapped. Despite also being Faerie, I'm not sure if it's good enough.
And yeah, Phyrexian Metamorph can probably come out for something better.
EDIT: Oh, and it turns out I was playing 98 cards.... so Flusterstorm is back in!
1. Island going out, Cephalid Coliseum is in. I need more ways of filtering my hand when holding cards like Damnation and Mystical Tutor in the control matchups. The life loss is largely irrelevant and can be solved by Urborg if it becomes problematic. I honestly think this format gives control decks too much life, so I really don't think it is an issue.
2. Mouth of Ronom is out, Mishra's Factory is in. I need more manlands in the control mirrors to make Standstill worth it. I also think it is a stellar blocker against creature decks and it can kill Geist in combat with its tap effect. Mouth, however, has been largely irrelevant and too hard to activate. If only it could target players and kill planeswalkers
3. I'm heavily considering playing Chainer's Edict. I would like some input on people who have used this card, and to which card I should take out in its place. I feel as though I could benefit from more removal that goes through hexproof. As a 2CMC spell, its sorcery speed is hardly an issue. And the possible card advantage it generates in the late game is intriguing.
Lastly, the tournament I am attending is in Ann Arbor, MI, at Get Your Game On. It will take place on Sunday, September 1st. Entry fee is $15-20 (I forget which), and among other prizes, an FTV 20 will be granted to the winner. Please come if you can or PM me if you have questions!
Mouth of Ronom has been fine for me. I very rarely have to use it, but the threat of it being used is good. I don't experience enough trouble with lack of coloured mana sources for me to want to remove this card.
I never tried Chainer's, but the sorcery speed bugs me a bit (similarly, I'm not convinced about Liliana of the Veil, but I'll test her a bit more). The flashback is very, very expensive -- I feel like if you can afford to tap out for 7, you've either already won or already lost. Edict effects in general have been just okay when I drew them (I run only Diabolic Edict and Far // Away). 4 edict effects seem heavy. They're good vs. Geist, but I don't think they're as good as spot removal in other matchups, and I'd prefer to avoid playing anything at sorcery speed unless it's really swingy (like Damnation, or equipments).
I had a lot of trouble against Sigarda, Host of Herons .
Final Score was 1-1-1
Won the first with Hatred on the 6th turn
Lost the second to a Sigarda I couldn't do anything against.
And I've played for the draw on the third. Since Wydwen was Nevermore'd lol
Other Match ups were really easy, Mayael the anima and Jenara, Asura of war.
BW Token Teysa, Orzhov Scion
UR No infinite Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
GBW I've got wood Doran, the Siege Tower
UB Spadassin Français Wydwen, the biting gale
Moving on to updates and changes!
Changes
Divert is out and Chainer's Edict is in. Divert was not countering enough spells, and for the tournament I felt as though I needed more removal. I've been happy with this change. Tapping out on turn two, especially on the play, or tapping two on turn four with two mana open to cast chainer's edict has been quite nice.
Theros Updates
Swan's Song: This spell is awesome and I will be playing it for sure. Since the flier is only a 2/2, we don't have to worry about Wydwen dying (unlike with Gilded Drake). It also reliably counters Survival of the Fittest, Oath of Druids, Sylvan Library, Bitterblossom, Standstill, and Tutors. A very strong spell.
Hero's Downfall: This will most likely be replacing Chainer's Edict. As seen with Sudden Death, 1BB instant removals can be strong if they come with a special bonus. Split second and Planeswalker removal are definitely special bonuses. Wydwen generally loses when an opponent resolves a powerful Planeswalker that won't die to the next Wydwen attack. This card offers an important out to Planeswalkers, as well as another unconditional removal spell. I like it.
If I haven't mentioned a card from Theros, it most likely means I don't like it. Cancel with scry 1 and dual lands that enter tapped and scry 1 ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. I love scry as much as the next guy, and scry 2 would make me reconsider, but that's not the case.
Cards I'm considering axing from the deck when better replacements arrive: Baleful Strix, Chainer's Edict, Flash of Insight, Forbidden Alchemy, Chain of Vapor.
Please respond with feedback and/or questions!
I also think Hero's Downfall might be too expensive for what it does. It does give us an extra answer (besides counterspells) to planeswalkers, but we already run so many counters that I think we're okay with them.
I don't like any of the other cards in Theros for this deck, so I won't mention them.
Any reason you want to remove Baleful Strix? It's a very fine card. Flash of Insight has also been excellent for me, I wouldn't want to cut it. I think you're right in identifying the other cards (Forbidden Alchemy, Chain of Vapor, and Chainer's Edict) as weak points, though.
You do have an excellent point. Some of my friends think I'm crazy for thinking this card is worth it. So why am I so optimistic about it? It stops broken plays. Sometimes I feel like Duel Commander has the speed of Standard but with the banlist of Vintage. Therefore, sometimes a certain few cards can spell almost immediate demise for Wydwen. For example, Phyrexian Arena, Demonic Tutor or Worldly Tutor, Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, Sneak Attack, etc. Swan's Song is the ultimate threat insurance, at the downside of being weak against mediocre spells, which I believe may be a necessary tradeoff. Though the better option may be Spell Snare, I want to try Swan Song first.
I think spot removal is widely underestimated in this format. Therefore, sometimes Split Second or the ability to target Planeswalkers is all it takes for me to consider it.
Regarding the Scry Dual, I think I may test it for a few weeks instead of an Island to see if its as bad as I think it is.
Baleful Strix is still in for now, it's just bad vs. non-Aggro decks. I actually like Forbidden Alchemy over Flash of Insight. I'm aware that seems weird... I think I just like being able to see four cards the first time around.
Also, I'm bringing back an oldie into my deck for further testing: Brainstorm. I like it so far... protects my hand against disruption, and I usually have a fetch. But I'm wondering if it's better than Chain of Vapor or Flash of Insight. Normally I hate cantrips in 99 card decks, but Brainstorm is more than that.
Lands - here is where you have a lot of opportunity for growth. it really isn’t hard to get 2 colors rolling, especially when your main color is blue. if you decrease the amount of fixing non-basics in your deck you can increase the number of winning lands. ie. you cut on the cheeky lands (reflecting pool, bog, minamo, cabal, pit, muta vault, etc) and then u up the amount of basics u run and in turn play things like scrying sheets (op), tectonic edge, rishadan port. play total 38-40 not including chrome mox
Counters - looks like you have a good suite, possible inclusions - spell snare, mental misstep, daze, swan song, forbid, scry counter, commandeer, shadow of doubt (this card and be absurd), exclude ; cards on my chopping block; divert, flusterstorm, trickbind (I love stifle, though being 2 mana really hurts your turn one ownage), power sink
Creatures - looks solid, spellstutter and revoker are on my block with baleful strix being awesome, possibly try nightshade familiar
Removals - chopping; snuffout, diabolic edict, chain of vapor, cyclonic. thoughts - into the roil, innocent blood, confiscate/take possession (it may not be your favorite, but this will give you good outs to things u/b struggles against), piracy charm, consuming vaopors
disruption - great
Card draw - chopping block forbidn alchemy, additions - you really have to play ponder, preordain, and brainstorm - they give you consistency at little to know cost. think twice, thirst for knowledge (this card is great at draw 3 discard 2 instant), jace beleren
Gamebreakers - chopping, bitterblossom, standstill, runechanters pike, nihil spellbomb - inclusions consecrated sphinx and just lose the rest for more consistency in your counters and draw
Good luck
-omgmakeme
These "cheeky" lands provide vital utility at little cost. The benefits of basics and Scrying Sheets are quite low in comparison. I play Tectonic Edge. Chrome Mox is unnecessary and creates card disadvantage. Rishadan Port is not for control decks, but for aggressive decks and stax decks.
You've mentioned multiple cards I already play. Thanks? I've tested Shadow of Doubt... it's narrow. Yes, it does cantrip. But it usually only cantrips. Exclude is fine but narrow, just like Spell Snare. Mental Misstep, Daze, Forbid, Commandeer, and others are not good enough at all.
Nightshade Familiar? That's not even a card. Revoker is very good.
Clearly you've never played with Snuffout. And Piracy Charm is a joke I hope.
Yay.
Three cantrips in a 99 card deck is not consistency. Think Twice is a card I've extensively talked about: It's too slow and doesn't provide card quality.
What?
Now it seems like your trolling. I really hope you don't think cutting Pike and Bitterblossom for Consecrated Sphinx is a good idea. I don't even...
Though I appreciate the feedback, I'd treat it with a lot more thought and respect if you didn't just randomly name cards without any explanations. Most of your suggestions seem very out of place, as if you didn't read my main post. You even told me to play a few cards I already play.
Excuse my snarkiness, but it's not because I felt like I was being attacked. I love general critiques that open up discussion. And I change things around a lot. I've played almost every card you suggested that I try out. But I don't want this forum post to be entirely about MY decklist. I'd like to open up discussion on this deck as a whole, with reasons and explanations behind card choices. For example, I'd love to hear how other people like playing controversial cards like Notion Thief, Shadow of Doubt, Phyrexian Arena, Spell Snare, Liliana of the Veil, Gitaxian Probe and others.
No multicolored deck on this forum wants to play Scrying Sheets though. I'm not the only player who finds Ponder and Preordain weak in this format (I'm currently testing Brainstorm to see if I have enough shuffle effects for it). So when I respond as such, it's because I know I'm not wrong. They may be playable cards, but they aren't "must haves."
TL;DR: I'm not angry, I'm disappointed that you assume your suggestions have merit without any reasoning to back them up.
I'm particularly excited about Toxic Deluge being like a second Damnation for us. Traditionally, black was lacking in strong sweepers compared to white, but I think card will be a very strong inclusion.
The other notable card is True-Name Nemesis. It may not mesh super well with our general-damage based game plan, but it's unquestionably a power card and I think worth playing. It's especially nice to hold equipment, which we play a bit of, sometimes (I believe Skankstar and I play Jitte, while Emether does not.
I now believe that Hero's Downfall is a worthy inclusion (as Skankstar mentioned in an earlier post), and I'm undecided about Liliana of the Veil. I should be able to do some testing with the 4 cards I mentioned above over the next month.
EDIT: Do we just fold to Derevi, Empyrial Tactician? Derevi can just tap down Wydwen, block next turn, and repeat. I can't think of any answers to Derevi that we run right now besides Vedalken Shackles and Sword of Feast and Famine. I'm very concerned about this matchup because it looks like Derevi will be a popular choice in the post-C13 meta, and he can stall out Wydwen (one of our only wincons) indefinitely.
Can anyone think of some appropriate solutions, or share any experience playing against this general? I would expect that decks like Zur and Geist may have similar troubles.
I'm building a wydwen and i'm using a list based in your list with some changes that i liked in this list
http://www .mtgtop8.com/event?e=7530&d=243167&f=EDH
what you think about this list? why he dont use bitterblossom,shackles,phyrexian arena?
Do you have recent good results with youy list?
PS:remove the space after www in the link
― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
I was excited to see this list as well, looks like Wydwen is viable again, after the Derevi ban. Recently I started playing a similar list to this one, just to try it out -- it's quite a departure from Emether's old list. I made a few changes for my meta, such as no Shriekmaw... I also dislike Serum Visions and am not really sold on Dimir Charm or Soul Manipulation. Some cards I am playing that Alexandre chose not to include Spellstutter Sprite, Flash of Insight, Runechanter's Pike, and Flusterstorm.
Bitterblossom was not that good in my testing. It's a very slow card, and I often didn't even want to play it when I drew it late, as I preferred to keep 2 more mana open to do something. It's good on turn 2, but then you can't counter their next play, which could be dangerous.
Vedalken Shackles needs Islands to work, and this list doesn't play too many of them. Shackles also costs 3 on our own turn, making it more of a late game card. Looks like Alexandre has chosen to play Treachery for this kind of effect instead (though Treachery is a bit more vulnerable to blowouts than Shackles). Emether's Wydwen list (you can search it up on these forums) used to have Shackles over Treachery, though. Both can be strong cards.
Phyrexian Arena is another slow card that makes us pay 3 on our own turn for an effect that isn't very impactful until several turns later. I'm far from an expert, but it seems like Liliana of the Veil differs in that it has an immediate impact (the -2) and/or requires answering/management in the next 2-3 turns, lest she becomes able to -2 again or even -6.
Dimir charm fits this role but often times kills opposing bobs or lotus cobras or mana elves. The card also has the ability to stop a wrath when we need it to. Very flexible.
And soul manipulation is a second copy of exclude about half the time. Which actually makes it pretty good.
Anyway just my thoughts!
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
I know the list doesn't play a lot of lands, thus making filtering spells like Serum Visions more important. I just think Serum Visions is so bad that I would rather be down a filtering spell than have to use it. Maybe I'm wrong though.
I think I should probably try Dimir Charm again, it is very flexible as you mentioned (though the "filtering" on it is very bad except in desperate circumstances).
I'm just concerned that this deck doesn't play enough creatures to make Soul Manipulation better than a 3-mana Remove Soul half the time.
I had some bad experiences with Stifle, so I'm not playing it right now, but it can be very strong.
The other part of my cuts was just to make space for cards like Flash of Insight and Runechanter's Pike, which I consider to be very, very strong. I forgot to mention as well that I am playing Impulse over the Serum Visions, keeping the number of filtering spells intact, but slightly more expensive (minus a Dimir Charm).