New Legends Rule

  • #1
    Ok, surely most read about the new changes: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248e
    http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248f

    Generals can't be killed by clones, thus making Hexproof generals stronger in general and also weakens some U-based decks that can't get rid of Hexproof generals unless they wrath or cast a mass bounce effect.

    Vesuva lost one of it's useful options, but it will be nice to copy opposing cradles.

    It will also enable interesting battles between PWs that will afect control mirrors in case that the situation happens.

    Comments, predictions thoughts??
    Legacy Decks:

    GBW NO Elves / Aggro Elves
    GBWU Combo Elves

    EDH Decks:

    Duel Commander:
    GG Thrun, the last Trolololol GG
    GW The Captain WG
    GWB Karadores BWG
    GWU Jenara UWG
    UWB Oloro-DD BWU

    Regular EDH:
    GBW Ghave the Enchanter WBG
  • #2
    So far, it makes Zur more powerful @-@



    Duel Commander
    URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG

    Duel Commander Current Projects:
    RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
    BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
    RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
    WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx

    Created By: DarkNightCavalier
  • #3
    Epic win for Animar Wink
  • #4
    Yeah. Clones just became a utility and not a sure thing removal :/



    Duel Commander
    URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG

    Duel Commander Current Projects:
    RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
    BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
    RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
    WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx

    Created By: DarkNightCavalier
  • #5
    Woah, that's certainly interesting. Nerfs U and UW slightly.
    Last edited by Kamenitza: 5/23/2013 2:16:55 AM
  • #6
    I don't like not having Baby Jace as a kill for Super Jace. Other than that I'll tolerate it. I just want more Legendary lands now.

    EDIT: Multiple Flagstones of Trokair lost its potency, but that hurts Soul Sisters, not us.
    Last edited by Robot Drew: 5/23/2013 7:11:13 AM
  • #7
    Hi,

    That legends rule is a great change overall.

    The two most important things about that are:

    - We will no longer need to have a specific rule for Duel Commander. We will have the official legend rule apply (I remind you that before this change we had stated that the legend rule didn't apply as long as the legendary permanents are commanders).

    - The debate about whether or not to ban Phantasmal Image or Phyrexian Metamorph is closed. Those cards will no longer be used as generic removals for blue decks. Without those cards, blue decks that don't play white or black will lose their most powerful removals and be forced to find new ways of playing.

    This will also lead to a few minor changes as well:

    - Cards like Vesuva, Jace Beleren or Dance of Many will also lose a part of their power.

    - If your commander is under Arrest, you can Clone it and keep the new one unArrested while your previous commander is sent back to the command zone as a state-based action.

    - Geist of Saint Traft becomes harder to kill. Before people start worrying about the power level of this commander (the rules committee will of course try to playtest this heavily in next weeks), I want to say that I personnally think that Geist will probably not raise to a ban-worthy power level, because it remains a fragile body that can be blocked in numerous ways. And remember that the clones were also one of Geist's greatest weapons too. Playtestings will tell us if I am right about this or if I am wrong. Gaka, if you read this, I hope you will practice your Geist deck a lot during next weeks. Smile

    I feel good about this change, because it stops some weird card choices: clones were played mostly because they were removals, which is not what they were intended for. It goes in the same way why we specified commanders could be put back into the command zone when sent to the library: before players would play cards like Hinder or Bant Charm only because of that and that was weird. I think it is better when cards are used for the purpose they were designed to.

    Before that change, blue had three excellent removal spells that could handle any commander, including Hexproof and Indestructible ones. One thing I commonly say when discussing clones with friends is that Jenara and Doran are the same kind of decks, but Doran has the best card advantage engines because it plays black, and Jenara has the best removals because it plays blue. I say it as a joke, but I deeply think this was true. It will no longer be. Blue decks will have to adapt. This change alone won't stop having blue the best color in the format, but I think it will still have very good consequences for the metagame.

    My two cents,

    Emether.
    For useful Duel Commander decklists you can check the 1v1 Commander subforum or this link.

    Current Duel Commander decks (competitive and updated until Dragon's Maze, your job to update since M14) :
    Aggro-disruption Doran
    Zur the Enchanter control
    Wydwen tempo
    Five colors control
    Thraximundar control
  • #8
    Quote from Emether

    - Geist of Saint Traft becomes harder to kill. Before people start worrying about the power level of this commander (the rules committee will of course try to playtest this heavily in next weeks), I want to say that I personnally think that Geist will probably not raise to a ban-worthy power level, because it remains a fragile body that can be blocked in numerous ways. And remember that the clones were also one of Geist's greatest weapons too.


    Totally agree. These changes will make Geist weaker in some areas but stronger in others (turn 3 Geist, turn 4 Phantasmal Image your own geist with counter backup, anyone?)

    These changes are annoying, but likely proper in the long run. I will miss stopping a Jitte with another Jitte... and Zur becomes muuuuch harder to kill.

    Quote from Emether

    Playtestings will tell us if I am right about this or if I am wrong. Gaka, if you read this, I hope you will practice your Geist deck a lot during next weeks. Smile


    Oh yeah, definitely.
    Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine


    EDH:
    RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
    GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)

    Duel Commander:
    WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
    BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
    BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)


    Church of the Wary
  • #9
    Gaka, you can still control only one copy of your general. What changes is interaction between legends controlled by different players (no more interaction) and how many you keep when you control 2 (1 vs 0 previously).

    Daniel
  • #10
    EDIT: Misunderstoood, but I'll just keep it here anyway
    Uh... >_> Holy **** what........ as if U needed a bit more power

    EDIT: Read Emether's post. I'm surprised you see it that way. It only makes Geist more deadly in U/x/x mirrors since you've lost two removals in the deck essentially. If I'm not mistaken, I think that any U/x/x mirror is hard for Geist (Gaka correct me if I'm wrong)? It helps Zur, no, because against it's two less in mirrors which were deadly like say vs Animar or Geist which had ways of getting clones tutored? I feel like this gives any U splash decks a big boost and a big kick in the nuts to Mono U decks.

    I'm curious if the cards are still worth running in certain decks (obviously Animar), but things like Zegana where you can just clone huge threats they still might be good despite non-removal part.
    Last edited by perfekt: 5/23/2013 4:59:26 AM
    French EDH

    RGB Prossh, Skyraider of Kher RGB
    RGW Marath, Will of The Wild RGW
    WU Geist of Saint Traft WU
    WGB Doran, The Siege Tower WGB
    BGU The Mimeoplasm BGU

    2 Headed Giant - Team perfektFluff
    UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
  • #11
    Quote from perfekt
    Uh... >_> Holy **** what........ as if U needed a bit more power

    I think you misunderstood. Blue got nerfed. You can't clone your own commander and keep both on the board. So clones are losing 90% of their power in this format.
    For useful Duel Commander decklists you can check the 1v1 Commander subforum or this link.

    Current Duel Commander decks (competitive and updated until Dragon's Maze, your job to update since M14) :
    Aggro-disruption Doran
    Zur the Enchanter control
    Wydwen tempo
    Five colors control
    Thraximundar control
  • #12
    Oh, right. It's 2 am, i think I have a right to fail miserably at times.
    Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine


    EDH:
    RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
    GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)

    Duel Commander:
    WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
    BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
    BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)


    Church of the Wary
  • #13
    Ya I derped too. I just re-read it haha
    French EDH

    RGB Prossh, Skyraider of Kher RGB
    RGW Marath, Will of The Wild RGW
    WU Geist of Saint Traft WU
    WGB Doran, The Siege Tower WGB
    BGU The Mimeoplasm BGU

    2 Headed Giant - Team perfektFluff
    UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
  • #14
    edit: nvm I misread previous posts
    On the Internet you can be anything you want.
    It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
  • #15
    aka FluffyFTW on Cockatrice

    __________________

    DECKS:
    WUB[Primer]Zur the EnchanterWUB
    GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU
    1vs1 Duel Commander rules
    __________________
    2 Headed Giant - team PerfektFluff
    GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU
  • #16
    Hot damn, as the Sisay guy, I've got mixed feelings.

    On the one hand, Emether nails it and I totally agree with the rationale behind the changes. If something's not working as intended, tweak away, devs.

    On the other hand, I'm more terrified of stolen legends than I am of them being cloned to death (a frequent enough occurrence when the majority of the best decks play 2-3 clone cards, often with some tutoring means). Even if my opponent is only packing 2-4 legends on the average, those legends are in there for good reason. Clones lose their versatility, but how lovely to still be able to gain your own tutoring engine or Linvala or what have you.

    And as Gaka mentioned, I often had to kill Jitte by tutoring for Jitte, a card that, when active, is pretty much immediate doom for weenie decks like mine. Definitely gotta keep the Enchantment/Artifact hate strong. Vesuva and Gaea's Cradle were often used by me for removal purposes, too, especially against elf ball.

    I don't know what this will all mean for the bigger pictures, all decks considered. Blue players, does this prompt you to want to remove your clones? Or are you reveling in the ability to have a second general and gain abilities you wouldn't normally have? I suspect this won't result in many changes for decks and might not even have a huge impact on blue's power since clones gain a new role. Hmm.
  • #17
    Quote from Riley
    I don't know what this will all mean for the bigger pictures, all decks considered. Blue players, does this prompt you to want to remove your clones? Or are you reveling in the ability to have a second general and gain abilities you wouldn't normally have? I suspect this won't result in many changes for decks and might not even have a huge impact on blue's power since clones gain a new role. Hmm.

    To make it short, in 80% of my decks I will simply remove clones. Thraximundar had Phantasmal Image only for the purpose of killing my opponent's commander. Same for almost all my blue decks. Apart from Animar, very few decks are using clones to actually copy something. They're mostly spot removals, nothing more.

    Emether.
    For useful Duel Commander decklists you can check the 1v1 Commander subforum or this link.

    Current Duel Commander decks (competitive and updated until Dragon's Maze, your job to update since M14) :
    Aggro-disruption Doran
    Zur the Enchanter control
    Wydwen tempo
    Five colors control
    Thraximundar control
  • #18
    Ahh, thanks, I needed that. I can't ever quite wrap my head around the inner workings of a blue mage. ;P

    If others feel similarly, I think that will be great news for non-blue slightly mid-rangey decks like Sisay (except, as noted, in the Animar matchup). DIAF Phantasmal Image.
  • #19
    we'll have to see how it affects the current meta, especially for 1 vs 1. true, it will surely hinder decks which rely on the "clones" as general removal. on the other hand, it might be beneficial on those decks with a lot of legendary creatures. perhaps the best profit will be for the hexproof generals, making them harder to kill. i guess there'll be a lot more appearance for geist of saint traft and sigarda host of herons decks
    Cool
  • #20
    An overall plus for Commander, but reading about this reminded me of the original Legend rule, which was that the first one trumps everything. Flavor-wise, that made a lot more sense IMO. No, you can't summon Livonya Silone, I already got her here on my side, have fun conjuring up some more War Mammoths or something.

    Will be a nice little boost for Sigarda and Thrun, but not nearly enough to make them relevant against the top decks, I don't think.
    "Try hard" since 1994.
  • #21
    It will mean blue will have to lean more on stealing annoying cards but what of hexproof/shroud critters? Well here comes Glaring spotlight. Incidently it's fetchable with trinket mage... One has to wonder how long before this modification was thought....
    Default color : red mana
    Default guild : Boros

    So why do I try to understand blue mana ?:wtf:
  • #22
    Little Sigarda is almost inmortal if you make her indestructible. With the recent buffs to midrange/aggro, also Uril zoo could see more play.

    I'm glad in general, although this kind of changes are not made with regular commander or DC in mind, I guess Zur and Geist, along with Jenara, will be the best decks of the format.
    Legacy Decks:

    GBW NO Elves / Aggro Elves
    GBWU Combo Elves

    EDH Decks:

    Duel Commander:
    GG Thrun, the last Trolololol GG
    GW The Captain WG
    GWB Karadores BWG
    GWU Jenara UWG
    UWB Oloro-DD BWU

    Regular EDH:
    GBW Ghave the Enchanter WBG
  • #23
    Excited to play Thrun Smile


    Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios

    Trade List

    EDH
    G Isao
  • #24
    Did anyone understand the changes to lands coming into play. Doesn't the new rule break Azusa land combos. I was really confused by the wording. This definitely makes my damia planeswalker deck weaker seeing as I'm out of my best way to kill Geist, Thalia, and animar. Looking at the meta as a whole I think this is good, but it does make me sad since I feel that damia was really really close to competing with the best, but this drop in power, and removal of my best tools isn't goin to help. Frown
    Currently Playing

    Duel Commander:
    Karador(still testing)
    Jenara

    MTGS Olde Name:
    Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
  • #25
    Quote from Hruen
    Did anyone understand the changes to lands coming into play. Doesn't the new rule break Azusa land combos. I was really confused by the wording. This definitely makes my damia planeswalker deck weaker seeing as I'm out of my best way to kill Geist, Thalia, and animar. Looking at the meta as a whole I think this is good, but it does make me sad since I feel that damia was really really close to competing with the best, but this drop in power, and removal of my best tools isn't goin to help. Frown

    In fact the new landing rule won't change anything 99,99% of the time. Basically you still play Azusa as it was before.

    It's just that with the old rule, you could cast Azusa, then drop your two additional lands of the turn, then if you did bounce+replay or blink your Azusa in the same turn you could play two more additional lands. Which happens in 0,0000001% of the games.

    Emether.
    For useful Duel Commander decklists you can check the 1v1 Commander subforum or this link.

    Current Duel Commander decks (competitive and updated until Dragon's Maze, your job to update since M14) :
    Aggro-disruption Doran
    Zur the Enchanter control
    Wydwen tempo
    Five colors control
    Thraximundar control
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