Noted. I'm still at 5 fetches since I'm holding out for the money I can save for the Zen fetch reprints. It is goin to happen though right? =)) But either way I'm keeping crucible for sure.
I might want to playtest winter orb. In theory it should hurt us less coz we play a lot of mana rocks?? What do you think? A Geist player used it on me last week, and he didn't notice the 2 rocks under my lands. He was already ahead, but that play still quite literally cost him the game.
Yeah I've thought about Orb too. But I think I want to put the three Diamonds back in the deck before I go this route. And then with that many rocks...I want to add Basalt Monolith and Wildfire. But this sounds like my Helmsmasher Superfriends build lol.
Noted. I'm still at 5 fetches since I'm holding out for the money I can save for the Zen fetch reprints. It is goin to happen though right? =)) But either way I'm keeping crucible for sure.
I might want to playtest winter orb. In theory it should hurt us less coz we play a lot of mana rocks?? What do you think? A Geist player used it on me last week, and he didn't notice the 2 rocks under my lands. He was already ahead, but that play still quite literally cost him the game.
Yeah I've thought about Orb too. But I think I want to put the three Diamonds back in the deck before I go this route. And then with that many rocks...I want to add Basalt Monolith and Wildfire. But this sounds like my Helmsmasher Superfriends build lol.
That's a crapload of rocks haha! The mana rock count in your list is at 8 right now, which I think is at the upper limit of just right. And I have play tested with as little as 6 and as many as 9. If 8 is not enough rocks to make winter orb playable, I would not play it rather than congest the deck with lots of rocks. =p
Did not see that superfriends build, do you have a list online?
Noted. I'm still at 5 fetches since I'm holding out for the money I can save for the Zen fetch reprints. It is goin to happen though right? =)) But either way I'm keeping crucible for sure.
I might want to playtest winter orb. In theory it should hurt us less coz we play a lot of mana rocks?? What do you think? A Geist player used it on me last week, and he didn't notice the 2 rocks under my lands. He was already ahead, but that play still quite literally cost him the game.
Yeah I've thought about Orb too. But I think I want to put the three Diamonds back in the deck before I go this route. And then with that many rocks...I want to add Basalt Monolith and Wildfire. But this sounds like my Helmsmasher Superfriends build lol.
That's a crapload of rocks haha! The mana rock count in your list is at 8 right now, which I think is at the upper limit of just right. And I have play tested with as little as 6 and as many as 9. If 8 is not enough rocks to make winter orb playable, I would not play it rather than congest the deck with lots of rocks. =p
Did not see that superfriends build, do you have a list online?
I have it posted in the Helmsmasher thread in these forums. But it has a few edits I need to make (such as adding in my Elspeth, Sun's Champion).
In this deck, I'd almost rather play Tangle Wire than Winter Orb. Wire buys us the time we need to go off (and shores up the Elves match up, if they get a faster than normal start).
Since you're interested in some of my other builds, what did you think of my "forcing" Bellstriker AiR to work? (I'm just extra proud of making that a feared archetype in my meta =P)
Its deck dependent. When I just had the six fetches, I declined to play Top or Crucible. Nowadays I own 9/10 fetches (all but Misty but I'm not interested in u/x or g/x anyway...) and so the Top is an auto include now.
Is Sensei's Divining Top for the Duel Commander build, the normal 1 vs. 1 build, or both?
Its deck dependent. When I just had the six fetches, I declined to play Top or Crucible. Nowadays I own 9/10 fetches (all but Misty but I'm not interested in u/x or g/x anyway...) and so the Top is an auto include now.
Is Sensei's Divining Top for the Duel Commander build, the normal 1 vs. 1 build, or both?
Ideally with the full compliment of nine fetches, it should be for both, I'd imagine.
Sorry I kind of don't get it, can you expound on how wire is better than winter orb? Also, with lots of nifty lands that can win us games, is weathered wayfarer an option?
Been looking at the AiR list, and I'm kind of hesitant to comment because I haven't played it myself. However judging by the list, I can see it winning local tournaments out here in Manila simply because no one sees it coming (too bad I don't have most of the pieces). And it's super funny that it's freaking bellstriker of all generals.
It's an archetype that's never seen before, and as a duel player I wouldn't be sure how to micromanage my deck to address it even if I did have an idea of how it plays.. =)) Coz it's one thing to add a new general into the mix, but a whole new archetype? Honestly the only mono-red EDH whether multiplayer or french I've ever seen is a casual kiki-jiki.. If I were in a tournament I'd rather just stick to my guns and pray I don't play you rather than risk compromising balance against other matchups. Which I think is great for you. And as a red player at heart, I might actually make this my next project and introduce it over here.
Sorry I kind of don't get it, can you expound on how wire is better than winter orb? Also, with lots of nifty lands that can win us games, is weathered wayfarer an option?
Been looking at the AiR list, and I'm kind of hesitant to comment because I haven't played it myself. However judging by the list, I can see it winning local tournaments out here in Manila simply because no one sees it coming (too bad I don't have most of the pieces). And it's super funny that it's freaking bellstriker of all generals.
It's an archetype that's never seen before, and as a duel player I wouldn't be sure how to micromanage my deck to address it even if I did have an idea of how it plays.. =)) Coz it's one thing to add a new general into the mix, but a whole new archetype? Honestly the only mono-red EDH whether multiplayer or french I've ever seen is a casual kiki-jiki.. If I were in a tournament I'd rather just stick to my guns and pray I don't play you rather than risk compromising balance against other matchups. Which I think is great for you. And as a red player at heart, I might actually make this my next project and introduce it over here.
Tangle Wire is sometimes better than Orb for a variety of reasons. 1) It is better against mana dork decks (early Anafenza, Ezuri, Marath, 2) It doesn't rely on an opponent being nearly full-tapped to be good, & 3) It doesn't care if one has mana rocks as it's always good to slow four permanents. Also it's better against Seedborn Muse/Prophet of Kruphix because it triggers on Upkeep instead of Untap (not that it beats Muse/Prophet mind you).
I've been honing that Bellstriker build (or the AiR concept specifically) for about two years, so there's definitely a lot of time that has gone into perfecting it. Also you get so much rage from casual players who view mana denial as "unfun". Well guess what, I view dumb ramp decks as "unfun" - here have this Acidic Soil for your Explosive Vegetation. Lol. Anyway around the LGS I've become respected and a bit admired for being brave enough to pilot AiR competitively, despite having 30 life to fight through. It definitely is a skill testing deck, both for the pilot, and the opponent that predicted going light on removal was the way to go.
So with all that being said.. How the hell can Kaalia beat that kind of deck? I mean I eat almost 10 points of damage on my own from fetches, shocklands, hall of the bandit lord, skeletal scrying and dark confidant before kaalia even resolves.. Unless it's a MoC knockout, I'm not sure if there's a way to catch up (and yes I'm assuming I'd be waaay behind by the time Kaalia's in play) even with Rakdos. Also with all the nonbasic hate, I might even be scooping before I worry about stuff like that.
Also, in theory, how would AiR fair against geist or a heavy control package? Is this a bad matchup?
So with all that being said.. How the hell can Kaalia beat that kind of deck? I mean I eat almost 10 points of damage on my own from fetches, shocklands, hall of the bandit lord, skeletal scrying and dark confidant before kaalia even resolves.. Unless it's a MoC knockout, I'm not sure if there's a way to catch up (and yes I'm assuming I'd be waaay behind by the time Kaalia's in play) even with Rakdos. Also with all the nonbasic hate, I might even be scooping before I worry about stuff like that.
Also, in theory, how would AiR fair against geist or a heavy control package? Is this a bad matchup?
Took me awhile to realize you were talking about Bellstriker vs Kaalia. This is interesting. Quite.
My initial reactions are that I can't rely on a 2/2 flyer against a deck packing copious amounts of burn. Further, a Moon shuts us down decently but remember 1) you don't have to fetch into duals, and 2) we do play a lot of mana rocks.
We need to survive to the midgame, using removal on 1) "kill on sights" (either Dwarf, Magus), and 2) time walking them with a well-timed removal on the combat step. From here we can take over with more durable value threats.
Remember that Earnest Fellowship is a card and mono-R can't deal with enchantments.
Vs Geist/Heavy Control? I'd imagine we play smart, don't deploy more threats than you need to minimize casualties from Supreme Verdict, however keep enough pressure on the board to prevent them from trying to get an attack in.
So with all that being said.. How the hell can Kaalia beat that kind of deck? I mean I eat almost 10 points of damage on my own from fetches, shocklands, hall of the bandit lord, skeletal scrying and dark confidant before kaalia even resolves.. Unless it's a MoC knockout, I'm not sure if there's a way to catch up (and yes I'm assuming I'd be waaay behind by the time Kaalia's in play) even with Rakdos. Also with all the nonbasic hate, I might even be scooping before I worry about stuff like that.
Also, in theory, how would AiR fair against geist or a heavy control package? Is this a bad matchup?
Took me awhile to realize you were talking about Bellstriker vs Kaalia. This is interesting. Quite.
My initial reactions are that I can't rely on a 2/2 flyer against a deck packing copious amounts of burn. Further, a Moon shuts us down decently but remember 1) you don't have to fetch into duals, and 2) we do play a lot of mana rocks.
We need to survive to the midgame, using removal on 1) "kill on sights" (either Dwarf, Magus), and 2) time walking them with a well-timed removal on the combat step. From here we can take over with more durable value threats.
Remember that Earnest Fellowship is a card and mono-R can't deal with enchantments.
Vs Geist/Heavy Control? I'd imagine we play smart, don't deploy more threats than you need to minimize casualties from Supreme Verdict, however keep enough pressure on the board to prevent them from trying to get an attack in.
Haha!! Now that I've taken a good look at both the monsters you've created, of course my first question would be regarding what would happen if they had a go at each other =)) Yeah, I was thinking rocks and fetching basics as well. I wouldn't mind tutoring an illumination in this matchup too. Taking out bellstriker's support permanents is to me the more crucial step for Kaalia.. not to underestimate the creatures of course, but we pack enough pinpoint removal and sweepers (I can tell as early as now that fire covenant will hurt more than usual in this matchup) anyway. I'm saving up cash for the key pieces of equipment so I can test right away. I will bring up other AiR concerns in the other thread.
So right now, would you prefer tangle wire or fulminator mage in the Kaalia duel list?
P.S. can't wait for your next Kaalia run. I don't really see the deck losing to Sigarda again. I mean really, top decking squall line post sire of insanity.. That's divine intervention right there.
So with all that being said.. How the hell can Kaalia beat that kind of deck? I mean I eat almost 10 points of damage on my own from fetches, shocklands, hall of the bandit lord, skeletal scrying and dark confidant before kaalia even resolves.. Unless it's a MoC knockout, I'm not sure if there's a way to catch up (and yes I'm assuming I'd be waaay behind by the time Kaalia's in play) even with Rakdos. Also with all the nonbasic hate, I might even be scooping before I worry about stuff like that.
Also, in theory, how would AiR fair against geist or a heavy control package? Is this a bad matchup?
Took me awhile to realize you were talking about Bellstriker vs Kaalia. This is interesting. Quite.
My initial reactions are that I can't rely on a 2/2 flyer against a deck packing copious amounts of burn. Further, a Moon shuts us down decently but remember 1) you don't have to fetch into duals, and 2) we do play a lot of mana rocks.
We need to survive to the midgame, using removal on 1) "kill on sights" (either Dwarf, Magus), and 2) time walking them with a well-timed removal on the combat step. From here we can take over with more durable value threats.
Remember that Earnest Fellowship is a card and mono-R can't deal with enchantments.
Vs Geist/Heavy Control? I'd imagine we play smart, don't deploy more threats than you need to minimize casualties from Supreme Verdict, however keep enough pressure on the board to prevent them from trying to get an attack in.
Haha!! Now that I've taken a good look at both the monsters you've created, of course my first question would be regarding what would happen if they had a go at each other =)) Yeah, I was thinking rocks and fetching basics as well. I wouldn't mind tutoring an illumination in this matchup too. Taking out bellstriker's support permanents is to me the more crucial step for Kaalia.. not to underestimate the creatures of course, but we pack enough pinpoint removal and sweepers (I can tell as early as now that fire covenant will hurt more than usual in this matchup) anyway. I'm saving up cash for the key pieces of equipment so I can test right away. I will bring up other AiR concerns in the other thread.
So right now, would you prefer tangle wire or fulminator mage in the Kaalia duel list?
P.S. can't wait for your next Kaalia run. I don't really see the deck losing to Sigarda again. I mean really, top decking squall line post sire of insanity.. That's divine intervention right there.
Fulminator vs Tangle, hmm that is a hard choice. Both perform different roles.
I beat Sigarda handily (one game I hard cast MoC with Bandit Lord). It was Ezuri I ran into the Sire < Squall Line situation. Totes dumb luck, and totes one-of-a-kind situation. But it's the other matches at the LGS; I'm not sure Kaalia is a good fit for the meta I have right now. I may sleeve up Bellstriker this week, at least until I hammer out "Tymmystax" (Tymaret STAX). Maybe - I haven't decided yet. I just know I quite enjoy Bellstriker, the reactions I get to the archetype, and eating the salty tears of players who lose to t2 Dwarves.
So with all that being said.. How the hell can Kaalia beat that kind of deck? I mean I eat almost 10 points of damage on my own from fetches, shocklands, hall of the bandit lord, skeletal scrying and dark confidant before kaalia even resolves.. Unless it's a MoC knockout, I'm not sure if there's a way to catch up (and yes I'm assuming I'd be waaay behind by the time Kaalia's in play) even with Rakdos. Also with all the nonbasic hate, I might even be scooping before I worry about stuff like that.
Also, in theory, how would AiR fair against geist or a heavy control package? Is this a bad matchup?
Took me awhile to realize you were talking about Bellstriker vs Kaalia. This is interesting. Quite.
My initial reactions are that I can't rely on a 2/2 flyer against a deck packing copious amounts of burn. Further, a Moon shuts us down decently but remember 1) you don't have to fetch into duals, and 2) we do play a lot of mana rocks.
We need to survive to the midgame, using removal on 1) "kill on sights" (either Dwarf, Magus), and 2) time walking them with a well-timed removal on the combat step. From here we can take over with more durable value threats.
Remember that Earnest Fellowship is a card and mono-R can't deal with enchantments.
Vs Geist/Heavy Control? I'd imagine we play smart, don't deploy more threats than you need to minimize casualties from Supreme Verdict, however keep enough pressure on the board to prevent them from trying to get an attack in.
Haha!! Now that I've taken a good look at both the monsters you've created, of course my first question would be regarding what would happen if they had a go at each other =)) Yeah, I was thinking rocks and fetching basics as well. I wouldn't mind tutoring an illumination in this matchup too. Taking out bellstriker's support permanents is to me the more crucial step for Kaalia.. not to underestimate the creatures of course, but we pack enough pinpoint removal and sweepers (I can tell as early as now that fire covenant will hurt more than usual in this matchup) anyway. I'm saving up cash for the key pieces of equipment so I can test right away. I will bring up other AiR concerns in the other thread.
So right now, would you prefer tangle wire or fulminator mage in the Kaalia duel list?
P.S. can't wait for your next Kaalia run. I don't really see the deck losing to Sigarda again. I mean really, top decking squall line post sire of insanity.. That's divine intervention right there.
Fulminator vs Tangle, hmm that is a hard choice. Both perform different roles.
I beat Sigarda handily (one game I hard cast MoC with Bandit Lord). It was Ezuri I ran into the Sire < Squall Line situation. Totes dumb luck, and totes one-of-a-kind situation. But it's the other matches at the LGS; I'm not sure Kaalia is a good fit for the meta I have right now. I may sleeve up Bellstriker this week, at least until I hammer out "Tymmystax" (Tymaret STAX). Maybe - I haven't decided yet. I just know I quite enjoy Bellstriker, the reactions I get to the archetype, and eating the salty tears of players who lose to t2 Dwarves.
Ah well. I've been actively hunting for duel commander tournaments over here but no luck yet. I'll post matchup info on your latest Kaalia list as soon as I find more people to play. =)
Is arcane lighthouse doin ok for you? What other utility lands would you consider running? Towards the end, boseiju actually helped me a lot before I cut it for the lighthouse, which I have yet to use.
Shameless side question, where do you get the signature thingy that determines your color?
It's been since (I think) 2012 since I played Kaalia in multiplayer. Just found myself curious this evening whether you feel like it's a better positioned deck now than it was several years ago. I took the deck apart just before cards like Master of Cruelties were printed, so I never got a chance to play with a 1HKO in the deck. Other than him, have there been any noteworthy additions to the aggro portion of the list? Or just the disruption and control?
It's been since (I think) 2012 since I played Kaalia in multiplayer. Just found myself curious this evening whether you feel like it's a better positioned deck now than it was several years ago. I took the deck apart just before cards like Master of Cruelties were printed, so I never got a chance to play with a 1HKO in the deck. Other than him, have there been any noteworthy additions to the aggro portion of the list? Or just the disruption and control?
Cheers!
Additions? No - I've actually been playing fewer threats and acting more as a combo deck (to the point of playing Demonic Consultation on the first Kaalia trigger for MoC). This, I feel, is the direction the format demands us to take.
Well, by "additions" I more-so meant upgrades, as I've long subscribed to the idea that a Kaalia deck should be one of quality threats over quantity. Good to know that MoC is worth adjusting the deck for, though
Well, by "additions" I more-so meant upgrades, as I've long subscribed to the idea that a Kaalia deck should be one of quality threats over quantity. Good to know that MoC is worth adjusting the deck for, though
Oh yeah. He is absolutely worth it - in 1v1. In multiplayer, I think he is lacklustre.
Oh and for big changes - I stopped playing Iona entirely. She just...isn't good anymore.
It's really surprising that you think Iona ist't good in 1v1. It seems like it could just lock out a lot of decks.. Some decks only have 1 color of removal... Doesn't a early Iona just win quite often?
It's really surprising that you think Iona ist't good in 1v1. It seems like it could just lock out a lot of decks.. Some decks only have 1 color of removal... Doesn't a early Iona just win quite often?
How many mono decks do you see nowadays? Just Mono-U really - and those aren't letting Iona/Kaalia resolve anyway. Yeah it's a thing against Ezuri - but Ezuri should have you killed before that point anyway (or else has more than enough mana for a Duplicant, O-Stone, or even a Perilous Vault anyway).
Back in the day, yeah Iona was the business. But that just isn't true anymore.
Been playtesting tonight and man I gotta say, Yosei needs to go. The lock just never happens and he's mostly just a 5/5 flier. I might bring back either of the hellkites, steel/thundermaw or just up my removal game a bit. Overall I got my ass handed to me. Ended up scooping against geist and anafenza. Did ok against talrand.
The people I've played against noticed that I seemed to have less answers to their threats compared to before. I know I've suggested this, but you should really run that original theoretical duel list from way back and see how far that takes you. Maybe replace the elemental blasts with crucible and fellowship and you're good to go.
Is magister of worth not worth testing? It's in some way a 1-sided board wipe. Or maybe I'm biased coz my last game was an abzan swarm and I just wish I had that haha
Yosei is an annoying card, even without the lock. Don't deal with it and its 5 damage per turn. Otherwise, when it dies, opponent skips their untap phase, and you tap 5 permanents.
3drink's Duel Commander version does use Earnest Fellowship, so perhaps you missed it?
Been playtesting tonight and man I gotta say, Yosei needs to go. The lock just never happens and he's mostly just a 5/5 flier. I might bring back either of the hellkites, steel/thundermaw or just up my removal game a bit. Overall I got my ass handed to me. Ended up scooping against geist and anafenza. Did ok against talrand.
The people I've played against noticed that I seemed to have less answers to their threats compared to before. I know I've suggested this, but you should really run that original theoretical duel list from way back and see how far that takes you. Maybe replace the elemental blasts with crucible and fellowship and you're good to go.
Is magister of worth not worth testing? It's in some way a 1-sided board wipe. Or maybe I'm biased coz my last game was an abzan swarm and I just wish I had that haha
Yeah, Magister is a bad card. I can't seem to find the old duel list, I think i edited over it with that more recent one. Although I bet I have one on these boards somewhere that I could extrapolate from...
Haha don't forget your change log!! I think that one is a bit too dated. You made a lot of changes, and AFTER those changes was when I really felt like I was playing a well oiled machine.
Again, this is mostly against a meta with Talrand, Marath, Anafenza and Geist, which MTGtop8 wise, is a pretty healthy lineup to go against. The deck was doing great. It just played really smoothly. Disruption/protection --> removal --> kaalia --> win. Of course it doesn't go my way 100% of the time, but I can't stress enough how amazed I was at your "magic theory" for coming up with that list despite not playing DC at the time. She played like a tier 1 general, and it just felt great coz we know she's not =)))
So far these are the changes from then and now that I like and will definitely keep based on playtesting..
1.) Crucible. Protects us from wasteland.
2.) Sensei's diving top over phyrexian arena.. Remember your sentiments about grim tutor being cumbersome? At least the tutor got you what you wanted ASAP. Arena was one of the cards that was nice to have in play,although it really takes a while to get milage.. Also useless when the next 8 cards on topdeck are manarocks and lands (this has happened a few times).. Overall made the deck feel less "smooth"
3.) Castigate is much better than stupor..
4.) earnest fellowship definitely. What it would have replaced in the list I'm not sure either. Pillage probably..
5.) damnation has been a suitable replacement for cataclysm (well not really *SOBS*) but it has gotten a LOT of milage.
6.) fire covenant well, I'm not gonna lie I have yet to draw it, but yes. Keeper. Don't need to use it to know. probably will replace pyroclasm in your list.
7.) red elemental blast and pyroblast are GREAT cards and for the record it's worth having as a dead draw against non blue because it just helps us dominate the blue matchup (an irony which i find hilarious).. But to be objective, these cards I don't miss, and having illumination and withering boon in was a great call.
8.) angel of despair over steel hellkite.. instant gratification wins. But sometimes I miss having a beatstick that I can topdeck with enlightened tutor.. If there was a way to play both, I would.
9.) expedition map is great, but I would replace a mana rock for a slot for it instead of thinning out other portions of the deck. Playing it probably means we won't be casting a mana rock on time anyway, assuming we activate its ability immediately after. 7 mana rocks instead of 8 is playable, as long as expedition map is the replacement. I'll playtest with 6 running dragon tempest instead
10.) Speaking of mana rocks, fellwar stone replacing chrome mox is a good call. But i can also play charcoal diamond if i feel like the color production from fellwar feels inconsistent.
11.) demonic consultation.. love it.
Now I'm on the fence on these next cards. Based on playtesting, I felt like drawing these cards made the deck run a lot less smoothly. I'm on the fence simply because the cards in question are just really freaking good. It just seemed to mess with deck chemistry when I played em.
1.) SoLaS. Can I just say I hate that I'm on the fence on this one. It's just a great card. But I'm telling you, it's clunky. drop it in for 3, and an equip for 2. It's basically protection for 5 mana on 1 creature. And the protection is 90% of why we like it. The 3 life can save us on occasion, and most of the time we have no target in the graveyard. Again, not questioning its power and impact when on board. But it messes with the smoothness of how the deck runs, based on experience. This has been in and out of the deck throughout playtesting, and I never missed it when it was gone. I think fellowship is already adequate as far as additional protection is concerned.
2.) Aven Mindcensor.. Again, not questioning its power and impact disruption-wise, but most of the time I'd rather have a concrete answer for things like removal, or just remove the tutor from an opponent's hand. And again, really powerful, but adding cards in coz they're great on paper has made me feel like the winning formula from your theoretical list was compromised a bit. Mindcensor is probably one of the best disruption cards ever, but most of the time it's anticipatory disruption. Instant disruption is what the deck really thrives on. Despite going against decks heavy on tutors and fetches, those plays have never been the reason I lost. But I HAVE lost quite a few times with a mindcensor in my hand wishing I had either hard hand disruption or removal in its place. I'd rather have hymn to tourach back in the list for this.
3.) Vampire Hexmage is a relevant body that can hold a sword that can remove counters. But based on how clunky SoLaS was, I'd rather just keep more removal/disruption. And a 2/1 first striker is a relevant body for only so long. Based on playtesting, this is an addition that was not needed, and it kind of messes with the "smoothness" of the theoretical list. I'd bring back terminate for this. We already have good planeswalker removal in the deck, my favorite being lightning bolt
4.) Yosei. 5/5 flier with and annoying ability when it dies. But I tell you, this guy gets exiled a lot. The skipping untap step when it dies is only great if I have something to win with next turn. We discussed early on about a decreased threat count in the deck to make room for disruption, removal and protection. That said, the times when I have had a second beatstick in hand along with yosei are outliers and don't really happen. I cannot stress enough that the loop does not happen. It really doesn't. And there have been a few occasions wherein I lost trying to set it up, and I use "set up" very loosely because I actually had yosei and sword of light and shadow in my hand. Just had to cast em really, but I still lost really bad. This brings me back to #1 really, where SoLaS is really just great for protection, and for 5 mana that's not gonna cut it. This guy doesn't either. I'd be happier bringing back utility removal like combust or go for the throat over this guy.
5.) Wait for it... Ajani Vengeant =)))) I finally understand why I don't like him. It has nothing to do with viewing Kaalia as aggro, which I don't. I mean unless I have grand abolisher or mother of runes in my hand, my first creature drop is Kaalia at turn 3 beyond and win the turn after, so I have always treated this as a combo deck. I don't like him because of his cmc. I've come to realize that optimal dusruption and removal stops at 3cmc. This is the same reason that utter end, despite being flexible and instant speed, is an unacceptable option for the deck. Ajani's kind of the same.
A smooth kaalia deck would hand disrupt/clear the board with removal, try to set up some protection and haste along the way, then cast her when the coast is clear, preferably with haste. Ajani's cmc being 4 like kaalia means by playing him we deliberately delay kaalia coming down for a turn and for what? His +1 is situational and underwhelming, and his -2 is the same. His ultimate is something to scare people, but after how many turns? You know what scares people immediately? Kaalia. I was hoping you'd try playing without him and replacing him with any of the cards I'm about to list below and tell me if you miss him. I would be shocked if you do. Ajani is another card I have played for months, and has not worked out well for me. Yes he just wins with liliana on the board, but that has happened to me never. =))
And lastly, these are the cards that you cut that I missed.
1.) Comprehensive removal and disruption package: terminate and edict cards have just kept my opponent's board empty most of the time. hymn to tourach, although unable to show me my opponent's hand, is just great, because most of the time it just puts a frown on an opponent's face. To me, putting in earnest fellowship is not enough reason to cut multicolored removal because first of all, you're not gonna get fellowship every time, and second, because you don't have much multicolored removal anyway, and it's unlikely you'll have that and fellowship in the same draw. Edict effects also have synergy with fellowship because it gets past protection.
2.) I agree with not running toxic deluge and fire covenant at the same time if and only if in your playtesting you find end hostilities to be worth the extra 2 mana. Otherwise, running both is better. Sometimes there comes a point in the game where fire covenant will take too much life to get a sweep. Deluge is so good.
3.) Iona. Funny story. It's not that I missed it, it's that my opponents are relieved that it got cut. That's a bad sign =)) And it was the Anafenza player who said it! I asked him why, considering he ran tri color.. And he said "really, at worst she's a 7/7 flier that gets rid of 1/3 of my color pie you've gotta be kidding me" and I realized that multicolored decks will always have their removal leaning towards a certain color anyway, mostly white. That's a form of protection and disruption that will always be relevant in my opinion. To me loads better than Yosei. I wouldn't mind keeping her out to make room for crucible or fellowship, but I would definitely run her over Yosei.
Not sure if i covered everything, but that's more or less it. This is based on extensive playtesting against quality duel decks. Data's still a bit fresh coz I was playing with em all night last night =))
Yeah I knew that list was dated, but its proven a fine base data set to extrapolate from. Your points are relevant, but I am about to get off work so I won't go into lengthy detail here yet.
Yeah I've thought about Orb too. But I think I want to put the three Diamonds back in the deck before I go this route. And then with that many rocks...I want to add Basalt Monolith and Wildfire. But this sounds like my Helmsmasher Superfriends build lol.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
That's a crapload of rocks haha! The mana rock count in your list is at 8 right now, which I think is at the upper limit of just right. And I have play tested with as little as 6 and as many as 9. If 8 is not enough rocks to make winter orb playable, I would not play it rather than congest the deck with lots of rocks. =p
Did not see that superfriends build, do you have a list online?
I have it posted in the Helmsmasher thread in these forums. But it has a few edits I need to make (such as adding in my Elspeth, Sun's Champion).
In this deck, I'd almost rather play Tangle Wire than Winter Orb. Wire buys us the time we need to go off (and shores up the Elves match up, if they get a faster than normal start).
Since you're interested in some of my other builds, what did you think of my "forcing" Bellstriker AiR to work? (I'm just extra proud of making that a feared archetype in my meta =P)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Is Sensei's Divining Top for the Duel Commander build, the normal 1 vs. 1 build, or both?
Ideally with the full compliment of nine fetches, it should be for both, I'd imagine.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Been looking at the AiR list, and I'm kind of hesitant to comment because I haven't played it myself. However judging by the list, I can see it winning local tournaments out here in Manila simply because no one sees it coming (too bad I don't have most of the pieces). And it's super funny that it's freaking bellstriker of all generals.
It's an archetype that's never seen before, and as a duel player I wouldn't be sure how to micromanage my deck to address it even if I did have an idea of how it plays.. =)) Coz it's one thing to add a new general into the mix, but a whole new archetype? Honestly the only mono-red EDH whether multiplayer or french I've ever seen is a casual kiki-jiki.. If I were in a tournament I'd rather just stick to my guns and pray I don't play you rather than risk compromising balance against other matchups. Which I think is great for you. And as a red player at heart, I might actually make this my next project and introduce it over here.
Tangle Wire is sometimes better than Orb for a variety of reasons. 1) It is better against mana dork decks (early Anafenza, Ezuri, Marath, 2) It doesn't rely on an opponent being nearly full-tapped to be good, & 3) It doesn't care if one has mana rocks as it's always good to slow four permanents. Also it's better against Seedborn Muse/Prophet of Kruphix because it triggers on Upkeep instead of Untap (not that it beats Muse/Prophet mind you).
I've been honing that Bellstriker build (or the AiR concept specifically) for about two years, so there's definitely a lot of time that has gone into perfecting it. Also you get so much rage from casual players who view mana denial as "unfun". Well guess what, I view dumb ramp decks as "unfun" - here have this Acidic Soil for your Explosive Vegetation. Lol. Anyway around the LGS I've become respected and a bit admired for being brave enough to pilot AiR competitively, despite having 30 life to fight through. It definitely is a skill testing deck, both for the pilot, and the opponent that predicted going light on removal was the way to go.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Also, in theory, how would AiR fair against geist or a heavy control package? Is this a bad matchup?
Took me awhile to realize you were talking about Bellstriker vs Kaalia. This is interesting. Quite.
My initial reactions are that I can't rely on a 2/2 flyer against a deck packing copious amounts of burn. Further, a Moon shuts us down decently but remember 1) you don't have to fetch into duals, and 2) we do play a lot of mana rocks.
We need to survive to the midgame, using removal on 1) "kill on sights" (either Dwarf, Magus), and 2) time walking them with a well-timed removal on the combat step. From here we can take over with more durable value threats.
Remember that Earnest Fellowship is a card and mono-R can't deal with enchantments.
Vs Geist/Heavy Control? I'd imagine we play smart, don't deploy more threats than you need to minimize casualties from Supreme Verdict, however keep enough pressure on the board to prevent them from trying to get an attack in.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Haha!! Now that I've taken a good look at both the monsters you've created, of course my first question would be regarding what would happen if they had a go at each other =)) Yeah, I was thinking rocks and fetching basics as well. I wouldn't mind tutoring an illumination in this matchup too. Taking out bellstriker's support permanents is to me the more crucial step for Kaalia.. not to underestimate the creatures of course, but we pack enough pinpoint removal and sweepers (I can tell as early as now that fire covenant will hurt more than usual in this matchup) anyway. I'm saving up cash for the key pieces of equipment so I can test right away. I will bring up other AiR concerns in the other thread.
So right now, would you prefer tangle wire or fulminator mage in the Kaalia duel list?
P.S. can't wait for your next Kaalia run. I don't really see the deck losing to Sigarda again. I mean really, top decking squall line post sire of insanity.. That's divine intervention right there.
Fulminator vs Tangle, hmm that is a hard choice. Both perform different roles.
I beat Sigarda handily (one game I hard cast MoC with Bandit Lord). It was Ezuri I ran into the Sire < Squall Line situation. Totes dumb luck, and totes one-of-a-kind situation. But it's the other matches at the LGS; I'm not sure Kaalia is a good fit for the meta I have right now. I may sleeve up Bellstriker this week, at least until I hammer out "Tymmystax" (Tymaret STAX). Maybe - I haven't decided yet. I just know I quite enjoy Bellstriker, the reactions I get to the archetype, and eating the salty tears of players who lose to t2 Dwarves.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Ah well. I've been actively hunting for duel commander tournaments over here but no luck yet. I'll post matchup info on your latest Kaalia list as soon as I find more people to play. =)
Is arcane lighthouse doin ok for you? What other utility lands would you consider running? Towards the end, boseiju actually helped me a lot before I cut it for the lighthouse, which I have yet to use.
Shameless side question, where do you get the signature thingy that determines your color?
sometime, yes.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
It's been since (I think) 2012 since I played Kaalia in multiplayer. Just found myself curious this evening whether you feel like it's a better positioned deck now than it was several years ago. I took the deck apart just before cards like Master of Cruelties were printed, so I never got a chance to play with a 1HKO in the deck. Other than him, have there been any noteworthy additions to the aggro portion of the list? Or just the disruption and control?
Cheers!
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Additions? No - I've actually been playing fewer threats and acting more as a combo deck (to the point of playing Demonic Consultation on the first Kaalia trigger for MoC). This, I feel, is the direction the format demands us to take.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Oh yeah. He is absolutely worth it - in 1v1. In multiplayer, I think he is lacklustre.
Oh and for big changes - I stopped playing Iona entirely. She just...isn't good anymore.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
How many mono decks do you see nowadays? Just Mono-U really - and those aren't letting Iona/Kaalia resolve anyway. Yeah it's a thing against Ezuri - but Ezuri should have you killed before that point anyway (or else has more than enough mana for a Duplicant, O-Stone, or even a Perilous Vault anyway).
Back in the day, yeah Iona was the business. But that just isn't true anymore.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
The people I've played against noticed that I seemed to have less answers to their threats compared to before. I know I've suggested this, but you should really run that original theoretical duel list from way back and see how far that takes you. Maybe replace the elemental blasts with crucible and fellowship and you're good to go.
Is magister of worth not worth testing? It's in some way a 1-sided board wipe. Or maybe I'm biased coz my last game was an abzan swarm and I just wish I had that haha
Yosei is an annoying card, even without the lock. Don't deal with it and its 5 damage per turn. Otherwise, when it dies, opponent skips their untap phase, and you tap 5 permanents.
3drink's Duel Commander version does use Earnest Fellowship, so perhaps you missed it?
Yeah, Magister is a bad card. I can't seem to find the old duel list, I think i edited over it with that more recent one. Although I bet I have one on these boards somewhere that I could extrapolate from...
EDIT: Found it.
1 Kaalia of the Vast
Protection & Disruption
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Mother of Runes
1 Thoughtseize
1 Defense Grid
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Stupor
1 Ajani Vengeant
Removals
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Path to Exile
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Boros Charm
1 Combust
1 Lightning Helix
1 Orzhov Charm
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Terminate
1 Go for the Throat
1 Sinkhole
1 Abolish
1 Dismember
1 Molten Rain
1 Orim's Thunder
1 Vindicate
1 Wear/Tear
1 Pyroclasm
1 Slagstorm
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Gamble
1 Tithe
1 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Night's Whisper
1 Sign in Blood
1 Tainted Pact
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Skeletal Scrying
Acceleration
1 Jeweled Amulet
1 Boros Signet
1 Charcoal Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Talisman of Indulgence
Kaalia Targets
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Master of Cruelties
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Rakdos the Defiler
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
The Manabase
1 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Fetid Heath
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Graven Cairns
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Homeward Path
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plateau
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Simple extrapolation to be had. Like I don't play either of the Moxen. Just not my taste.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I think you took out molten rain, lightning helix, orim's thunder, abolish, sign in blood, slagstorm and a few more pieces that I can't recall. And of course cataclysm had to go, though that time you didn't discuss at that time what your replacement would be.
Then you added in pillage, council's judgment, toxic deluge, read the bones, then you suggested edict cards in exchange of orzhov charm and go for the throat.. not sure if i missed stuff. You were switching disruption dudes like sin collector in and out but i really just went for spells.
Again, this is mostly against a meta with Talrand, Marath, Anafenza and Geist, which MTGtop8 wise, is a pretty healthy lineup to go against. The deck was doing great. It just played really smoothly. Disruption/protection --> removal --> kaalia --> win. Of course it doesn't go my way 100% of the time, but I can't stress enough how amazed I was at your "magic theory" for coming up with that list despite not playing DC at the time. She played like a tier 1 general, and it just felt great coz we know she's not =)))
So far these are the changes from then and now that I like and will definitely keep based on playtesting..
1.) Crucible. Protects us from wasteland.
2.) Sensei's diving top over phyrexian arena.. Remember your sentiments about grim tutor being cumbersome? At least the tutor got you what you wanted ASAP. Arena was one of the cards that was nice to have in play,although it really takes a while to get milage.. Also useless when the next 8 cards on topdeck are manarocks and lands (this has happened a few times).. Overall made the deck feel less "smooth"
3.) Castigate is much better than stupor..
4.) earnest fellowship definitely. What it would have replaced in the list I'm not sure either. Pillage probably..
5.) damnation has been a suitable replacement for cataclysm (well not really *SOBS*) but it has gotten a LOT of milage.
6.) fire covenant well, I'm not gonna lie I have yet to draw it, but yes. Keeper. Don't need to use it to know. probably will replace pyroclasm in your list.
7.) red elemental blast and pyroblast are GREAT cards and for the record it's worth having as a dead draw against non blue because it just helps us dominate the blue matchup (an irony which i find hilarious).. But to be objective, these cards I don't miss, and having illumination and withering boon in was a great call.
8.) angel of despair over steel hellkite.. instant gratification wins. But sometimes I miss having a beatstick that I can topdeck with enlightened tutor.. If there was a way to play both, I would.
9.) expedition map is great, but I would replace a mana rock for a slot for it instead of thinning out other portions of the deck. Playing it probably means we won't be casting a mana rock on time anyway, assuming we activate its ability immediately after. 7 mana rocks instead of 8 is playable, as long as expedition map is the replacement. I'll playtest with 6 running dragon tempest instead
10.) Speaking of mana rocks, fellwar stone replacing chrome mox is a good call. But i can also play charcoal diamond if i feel like the color production from fellwar feels inconsistent.
11.) demonic consultation.. love it.
Now I'm on the fence on these next cards. Based on playtesting, I felt like drawing these cards made the deck run a lot less smoothly. I'm on the fence simply because the cards in question are just really freaking good. It just seemed to mess with deck chemistry when I played em.
1.) SoLaS. Can I just say I hate that I'm on the fence on this one. It's just a great card. But I'm telling you, it's clunky. drop it in for 3, and an equip for 2. It's basically protection for 5 mana on 1 creature. And the protection is 90% of why we like it. The 3 life can save us on occasion, and most of the time we have no target in the graveyard. Again, not questioning its power and impact when on board. But it messes with the smoothness of how the deck runs, based on experience. This has been in and out of the deck throughout playtesting, and I never missed it when it was gone. I think fellowship is already adequate as far as additional protection is concerned.
2.) Aven Mindcensor.. Again, not questioning its power and impact disruption-wise, but most of the time I'd rather have a concrete answer for things like removal, or just remove the tutor from an opponent's hand. And again, really powerful, but adding cards in coz they're great on paper has made me feel like the winning formula from your theoretical list was compromised a bit. Mindcensor is probably one of the best disruption cards ever, but most of the time it's anticipatory disruption. Instant disruption is what the deck really thrives on. Despite going against decks heavy on tutors and fetches, those plays have never been the reason I lost. But I HAVE lost quite a few times with a mindcensor in my hand wishing I had either hard hand disruption or removal in its place. I'd rather have hymn to tourach back in the list for this.
3.) Vampire Hexmage is a relevant body that can hold a sword that can remove counters. But based on how clunky SoLaS was, I'd rather just keep more removal/disruption. And a 2/1 first striker is a relevant body for only so long. Based on playtesting, this is an addition that was not needed, and it kind of messes with the "smoothness" of the theoretical list. I'd bring back terminate for this. We already have good planeswalker removal in the deck, my favorite being lightning bolt
4.) Yosei. 5/5 flier with and annoying ability when it dies. But I tell you, this guy gets exiled a lot. The skipping untap step when it dies is only great if I have something to win with next turn. We discussed early on about a decreased threat count in the deck to make room for disruption, removal and protection. That said, the times when I have had a second beatstick in hand along with yosei are outliers and don't really happen. I cannot stress enough that the loop does not happen. It really doesn't. And there have been a few occasions wherein I lost trying to set it up, and I use "set up" very loosely because I actually had yosei and sword of light and shadow in my hand. Just had to cast em really, but I still lost really bad. This brings me back to #1 really, where SoLaS is really just great for protection, and for 5 mana that's not gonna cut it. This guy doesn't either. I'd be happier bringing back utility removal like combust or go for the throat over this guy.
5.) Wait for it... Ajani Vengeant =)))) I finally understand why I don't like him. It has nothing to do with viewing Kaalia as aggro, which I don't. I mean unless I have grand abolisher or mother of runes in my hand, my first creature drop is Kaalia at turn 3 beyond and win the turn after, so I have always treated this as a combo deck. I don't like him because of his cmc. I've come to realize that optimal dusruption and removal stops at 3cmc. This is the same reason that utter end, despite being flexible and instant speed, is an unacceptable option for the deck. Ajani's kind of the same.
A smooth kaalia deck would hand disrupt/clear the board with removal, try to set up some protection and haste along the way, then cast her when the coast is clear, preferably with haste. Ajani's cmc being 4 like kaalia means by playing him we deliberately delay kaalia coming down for a turn and for what? His +1 is situational and underwhelming, and his -2 is the same. His ultimate is something to scare people, but after how many turns? You know what scares people immediately? Kaalia. I was hoping you'd try playing without him and replacing him with any of the cards I'm about to list below and tell me if you miss him. I would be shocked if you do. Ajani is another card I have played for months, and has not worked out well for me. Yes he just wins with liliana on the board, but that has happened to me never. =))
And lastly, these are the cards that you cut that I missed.
1.) Comprehensive removal and disruption package: terminate and edict cards have just kept my opponent's board empty most of the time. hymn to tourach, although unable to show me my opponent's hand, is just great, because most of the time it just puts a frown on an opponent's face. To me, putting in earnest fellowship is not enough reason to cut multicolored removal because first of all, you're not gonna get fellowship every time, and second, because you don't have much multicolored removal anyway, and it's unlikely you'll have that and fellowship in the same draw. Edict effects also have synergy with fellowship because it gets past protection.
2.) I agree with not running toxic deluge and fire covenant at the same time if and only if in your playtesting you find end hostilities to be worth the extra 2 mana. Otherwise, running both is better. Sometimes there comes a point in the game where fire covenant will take too much life to get a sweep. Deluge is so good.
3.) Iona. Funny story. It's not that I missed it, it's that my opponents are relieved that it got cut. That's a bad sign =)) And it was the Anafenza player who said it! I asked him why, considering he ran tri color.. And he said "really, at worst she's a 7/7 flier that gets rid of 1/3 of my color pie you've gotta be kidding me" and I realized that multicolored decks will always have their removal leaning towards a certain color anyway, mostly white. That's a form of protection and disruption that will always be relevant in my opinion. To me loads better than Yosei. I wouldn't mind keeping her out to make room for crucible or fellowship, but I would definitely run her over Yosei.
Not sure if i covered everything, but that's more or less it. This is based on extensive playtesting against quality duel decks. Data's still a bit fresh coz I was playing with em all night last night =))
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.