Karador! He's in the sexiest color combination! He's a centaur! A spirit! He has massive antlers! Ya! What other reasons do you need!?
Well, he's also one of the most inevitable generals in EDH, is a combo piece, and enables massive shenanigans. That too.
Why not Karador?
I dont have to tell you that.
No, but seriously, why not Karador?
FINE.
You dislike reanimator.
You like counters.
You dislike being reliant on drawing the right combo pieces.
Basic principle of the deck. The deck essentially plays as straight reanimator, but with added resilience by having a mini-theme of good rock creatures, in addition to a lot of mana dorks. Karador as your general also means that with enough mana, you can hardcast your juicy reanimator targets straight from the GY.
You can also always Birthing Pod Karador into Iona. That works too.
I'll add more stuff if I can think of anything.
Thanks for reading!
January 1, 2011
-Xantid Swarm
-Duress
-Inquisition
-Dread Return
-Braids
+Golgari Thug
+Green Sun's Zenith
+Captain Sisay
+Preacher
+Scavenging Ooze
April 22, 2013
Total revamp of the deck to make advantage of Protean Hulk and Bitterblossom.
Move away from traditional win targets, re-inclusion of Natural Order to get Hulk, and Prime Time to take advantage of NO as well.
Other cards like Acidic Slime and more rampers also included.
April 24, 2013
-Razorverge Thicket
+ Saffi Eriksdotter
April 28, 2013
-Wood Elves
-Mindslicer
-Golgari Thug
-Iona
-Teeg
-Bitterblossom
+Elesh Norn
+Yosei
+Academy Rector
+Pattern of Rebirth
+Carrion Feeder
+Sin Collector
May 13, 2013
-Golgari Grave Troll
-Grisly Savage
-Greenseeker
-Garruk Relentless
-Phyrexian Arena
September 08, 2013
Update to finally accommodate Hulk re-banning - too many changes to keep track of
September 16, 2013
Loyal Retainers banning - out goes big legendaries reliant on Loyal Retainers, in goes Jitte to augment the Rock direction of the deck, Iona to be the one big tutor target, and a new infinite combo.
-Elesh Norn
-Loyal Retainers
-Entomb
-Griselbrand
+Umezawa's Jitte
+Kitchen Finks
+Archangel of Thune
+Iona
August 11, 2014
Complete overhaul to acomodate Oloro banning -- Back to straight reanimator!
Its one of the Gatherer rulings - "A creature with Protection from Creatures can't be targeted by this card's ability". I guess that means Animar cant be targeted by Carrionette.
Changes!
-Sheoldred -> Too clunky, and I never found myself lacking a win condition (also the worst of the legendary creatures)
-Snuff out -> Too situational
-Gaea's Herald -> Too situational, doesnt improve the bad matchups
-Chainer's Edict -> Too cute
-Arbor Elf -> More controverisal, accel is always good. However, I often felt like I didnt have the forest
-Aven Mindscensor -> Too reactive in a proactive deck
-Skinrender -> 4 mana for a 3/3. Also doesnt kill any relevant creatures that Shriekmaw or Bone Shredder couldnt (Zur / Animar / Grave Titan / etc).
+Greenseeker -> Another discard outlet. Also gets me lands when Im dredging every turn
+Fume Spitter -> Randomly kills Confidants / Mother of Runes / Mana Dorks / Etc. Makes Karador cost less
+Peacekeeper -> Should have had this in a while ago. Stops Zur, Eldrazi, Edric, etc. Like Spore frog, but a million times better.
+Go For The Throat / Dismember -> Need more removal
+Benevolent Bodyguard -> Good protection for Karador.
+Hymn to tourach -> Too good to not be in
Mindscensor is actually pretty lackluster against Zur. They simply kill it and swing. It gets better if you can recur it, but once zur swings once or twice the game is pretty much over anyway.
Skinrender does target black or artifact creatures, but the black or artifact creatures which see play all tend to have 4 toughness or more, making Skinrender rather bad.
The titans because they make card advantage and are good beaters. The extra re-animation spells because frankly they are way faster than dread return and animate dead can be recurred with sun titan neating you much larger creatures at the same time.
Necro sliver gives you a recurrable vindicate that goes with the general.
Also for equipment I find the swords to be leagues ahead of jitte if you general is central to your game plan, the protection can make or break games.
Jitte is literally only in for Edric and Animar. In almost every other matchup, both Jitte and swords are lackluster, as once the dredge engine is going, equipment is undrawable, and useless to Karador.
Reanimate and Animate Dead were considered, but are on a whole much worse than Loyal Retainers. Furthermore, theres nothing really huge in the deck to bring back aside from Iona and Yosei.
Necrotic Sliver: Incredibly slow. Cant really think of many matchups where its useful, except for maybe Zur.
Primeval Titan: Gets Bazaar, but on a whole, just a 6/6 trample in this deck. Lackluster.
Sun Titan: Long been considered, a great endgame finisher. I'm hesistant to add in another 6 drop, because it increases the curve so much, but Sun Titan probably should be in regardless. Ill see if I can think of cuts.
Here's my own version after multiple tries for the pass few days online. It works well in some cases. Like you, I find some of the cards too clunky and replace the suits to my taste. My only complain is that I need some draws and ramping since playing 1v1 will kill me if I take my time.... D:
Didn't like Troll since the highest I got in a fast game is.... 1. That includes all the dredge package. So I drop him.... It's not perfect since I can't find a lot of sac creatures D:
On a brightside, Reanimate+Titan or something is worth the life in early turn. Earliest if turn 2 Reanimate Green Titan using Entomb.
In addition, with discussion with my friend, RoE package is beneficial to grab Spore or Kami. I manage to win using them against Kaalia and Edric on the long run.
Golgari Grave Troll can actually kill itself by removing counters if you're stuck with no dredge outlet (not the greatest, but its happened to me once or twice).
The curve on your deck also seems incredibly high. How often do you have opening hands of Tooth&Nail, Yosei, Sheoldred, etc? Most of your plays seem to begin around turn 3-4, which is way too late against a deck like Edric.
Ranger seems interesting, and probably worth adding now that so many utility creatures sit at 1 cmc.
Im also going by the French banlist, so Sol Ring is not allowed.
Golgari Grave Troll can actually kill itself by removing counters if you're stuck with no dredge outlet (not the greatest, but its happened to me once or twice).
The curve on your deck also seems incredibly high. How often do you have opening hands of Tooth&Nail, Yosei, Sheoldred, etc? Most of your plays seem to begin around turn 3-4, which is way too late against a deck like Edric.
Ranger seems interesting, and probably worth adding now that so many utility creatures sit at 1 cmc.
Im also going by the French banlist, so Sol Ring is not allowed.
Including Serra Ascendant...
With those 2 out, I would add Viscera Seer, Llanowar Elves and/or BoP.
Tooth and Nail is something "I wished I have those when I'm top decking" that's from Dredging too much and/or no hand. I'm also thinking adding ramps that I see a lot running around.
The High CMC is just for the tempo when Karador is out pulling out Karmic/Loyal in a jiffy. It works so much quicker if I have the mana. Sadly our color doesn't give us anything to give a draw like Eldric does. If I played long enough, I might drop the high cmc guys if it hinders my deck completely.
Edit:
This is my list now: Took out the Ring, Mine, and Serra.
Sadly, I can't use this deck against Edric. I don't have enough fire-power to outrun him. Best candidates for them is to reuse. In addition, we lack draw power which I prefer using TnN+Regal+Avenger and of course Harmonize
Yeah... I lower my deck curve. Almost like yours but I'm adding Doran to the arsenal. Reveillark is awesome if you manage to pull him out which is like a 2nd Ranger of Eos.
Lots and lots of testing (plus drudging through school work) has left me to neglect this thread, but I've re-updated it to bring the decklist back to the current version Im playing
Probably controversial changes, so Ill explain them!
-Shriekmaw: Too slow, sorcery speed, too many creatures Im scared off are black (or Animar). This was an easy cut. Boneshredder remains much more useful as it has flying, and can be brought back by Sun Titan
-Stoneforge Mystic + Umezawa's Jitte: Jitte + Stoneforge were both only in to combat Animar, and they simply dont do a good job of even that. I often dredge skullclamp, and searching for a Jitte when Im doing my graveyard interactions is incredibly lackluster. They've been cut for better stuff.
-Fume Spitter: Too cute. Not even good against Edric.
-Enlightened Tutor: A very good card, which got exponentially worse as the game continued. Really, this card was only good in the first 4-5 turns, which ultimately killed it for me. Late game, this deck aims to dredge every turn, which means the "put on top" clause really kills this card. Furthermore, it does put you down a card, which does nothing for the control matchup.
+Kessig Cagebreakers: Only in because Gaka kept on pestering me, but a surprising all star. Threatening lethal at virtually any point in the game is definitely worth 5 mana.
+Sun Titan: Should have been in a while ago. Allows this deck to do nonsensical things, i.e: Ill Yosei lock you 3 times in one turn.
+Weathered Wayfarer: This should be an easy one. Gets me Cradle + Bazaar. Incredible one drop
+Splinterfright: A new goody from Innistrad. Mills me cards for Karador, and gets very, very big, very, very quickly. A very threatening 3 drop.
+Xantid Swarm: Replaces Tutor to bring the creature count back up to a nice 40. Also is an amazing one drop versus control, especially decks like Edric and Clique, where Swarm can often force through an early backbreaking Karador ftw.
+Kessig Cagebreakers: Only in because Gaka kept on pestering me, but a surprising all star. Threatening lethal at virtually any point in the game is definitely worth 5 mana.
Success.
Thought about Pit Keeper at all? I like it as a way to tutor for a creature in my yard, and is a nice clamp target.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Pit Keeper looks good, but comes out around the same time as Karador, and Karador essentially does that effect every turn. I like Pit Keeper because its a straight 2-1 which is very easy to activate, but Im mostly not sure what to cut for it. Ill see!
I'm surprised that this deck doesn't have more comments. I was testing it intensively a while back and it's definitely tier 1, despite being soft to Animar.
This deck is one of those unique cases where cards that would be staples in any other deck are not optimal here, due to interactions with the general. When synergy is more important than sheer power, you've got something special going on. Karador is strong enough to make that happen.
This is by far my favorite version of Karador (though I haven't seen Gaka's list, hint hint). Most of the decks I see online have no more than 25-30 creatures, and as a result they just don't function as effectively.
I'm definitely in favor of the most recent changes, in that the creatures you cut consistently underperformed for me. I'm less sure about Enlightened Tutor, but you may be right to cut it. Survival of the Fittest/Sylvan Library/Skullclamp are so dominating early game that it's hard to justify cutting another way to find the best one for the situation. It's certainly true that it's much less useful after the first few turns...but if you're dredging every turn anyway, how often are you really drawing it late? My primary metric for assessing cards in any deck is how happy I am to see it in my opening hand, not late-game, and Enlightened Tutor is very strong there. Maybe strong enough to be worth keeping, despite falling off in later turns. You may be right to cut it, but I'm least sure about this one.
I haven't tested your recent additions, but they seem good. Weathered Wayfarer is one I was going to suggest myself. The only one I'm not sure about is Splinterfright: I'm a little worried about getting that first creature in the graveyard to make it playable. It seems like it will often be uncastable at the time when you most want it (like on turn 2 off a mana dork), and potentially win-more after that (since the slow mill won't matter much once your graveyard is stocked). It certainly can be large though. I haven't tested it yet so I can't say anything with much conviction, but I'd keep a close eye on this one.
The cards I most consistently found myself wanting to add during testing (besides Weathered Wayfarer) were Phyrexian Tower, Reveillark, and Saffi Eriksdotter. The opportunity cost on Phyrexian Tower is extremely low, and it can replace Viscera Seer in a Yosei lock. Weathered Wayfarer makes it even better.
Reveillark and Saffi just feel right. Saffi is comparable to Benevolent Bodyguard, but with a lot of additional combo (or wrath-proof) potential. Reveillark is pure value here, against with combo potential. Both cards can go nuts with Karmic Guide (or with each other) to do some very unfair things. It's possible that these cards simply aren't effects that you need, which could justify their exclusion, but they're undeniably powerful and synergistic and seem worth trying, at the least.
I'd also think about trying Preacher and Ranger of Eos. Preacher is kind of a pet card of mine, but it's even better in this deck than any I've ever played it in. It's removal on a creature (which is exactly what you need), and it goes great with sacrifice outlets like Viscera Seer and Phyrexian Tower. Ranger of Eos is a little slow, but you do have a huge number of powerful 1-drops in here. As a tutor and a creature, it might be worthwhile. You might also consider working in Bojuka Bog and/or Scavenging Ooze, just so you have some way of interacting with an opponent's graveyard.
Pit Keeper is cute, but seems a little sketchy to me. Is a conditional Raise Dead really what you want? Probably not. And if it somehow is, Undertaker seems like a way better choice to me, given that you actually want a few discard outlets.
I couldn't tell you just what to cut for these suggestions, but the weaker cards remaining, in my experience, include Greenseeker, Dread Return, Hymn to Tourach, and Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize. Greenseeker has just never been relevant for me as anything other than Skullclamp fodder. Dread Return is usually awkward, since I frequently don't have 3 creatures in play, let alone 3 I want to sacrifice. The discard is obviously fine, but has a bit of dissynergy with the rest of the deck, just in that they're not creatures. Hymn in particular is problematic in that it doesn't fit the curve and opens you up to being blown out by Misdirection, a card which is becoming pretty popular. Maybe you should just be playing more creatures.
The rest of the deck seems extremely tight. I almost want to suggest cutting Living Death since I've found it impossible to ever draw, so it just messes up my dredges, but I'm sure the card wins any game in which it resolves, so it probably ought to stay.
Again, this deck is tier 1 and quite different from anything else in the format. It deserves a lot of respect. As far as I can tell, no one in France is playing anything like this, but I think this list could easily win a French tournament: most of the top decks there are unprepared to handle the threats this deck presents. You've done a great job tuning it Fluxuate.
Thanks for the lengthy reply primarily, you've summarized a lot of my sentiments about the deck.
In fact, Tectonic Edge was cut a while ago for Phyrexian Tower for precisely the reasons you listed, and Bojuka Bog simply had been neglected from the original post, despite having been part of the deck since day 1.
Saffi / Reveillark / Ranger were all tested at different times in the deck.
Saffi / Reveillark were part of the original decklist, and suffered from a lack of board impact. Saffi protects against board wipes, but wraths are incredibly easy for this deck to handle. Especially considering that very little of the answers in this format are destruction based (bounce / steal / exile), Saffi was simpy a 2/2 dead card far too often. Reveillark, for 6 mana, also couldn't bring back anything too relevant; at least not relevant enough to justify its inclusion. Sun Titan does far more for the same cost.
Saffi and Reveillark might be worth it if I also include Mirror Entity, but thats 3 slots to fit, 2 of which (Reveillark and Mirror Entity) seem like dead cards far too often. What will most likely happen is that only Saffi makes the cut simply because of the interactions she can spawn with cards like Yosei and Boneshredder.
Ranger is often tossed back and forth. I think with the addition of Wayfarer, he justifies a spot in the eck.
As for the discard effects, they're necessary tools for the deck; atleast, that's what testing indicates. If I can discard an answer to Karador, and consequently, land an early general, the game is generally sealed. Hymn does indeed strain the manabase, and was cut, then readded, then cut, etc. It often does not make an immense impact, but a game or two has taken place in which searching for an eternal witness to bring back Hymn was my only out.
Greenseeker is without a doubt worth its position. Consider its one of the only ways the deck has to dredge every turn, and still make consistent land drops. Its also a repeated discard outlet for cards like Darkblast and Life From the Loam. Its far, far better than it initally appears.
Upon review of your comment, I realized I had neglected to mention Preacher. It does seem to be a bit of a pet card of yours, but in all honestly, it does provide the exact kind of effect this deck needs. Repeated creature removal (given the right board position) is a very powerful effect. It also can deal extremely effectively with Zur (one of the worst matchups). This card for sure warrants a spot.
Lastly, Living Death is simply a 5 mana "win the game if uncountered" card. It does indeed very often land in the graveyard and have no effect, but remember that Eternal Witnesscan recur it if necessary. It also is one of the few outs the deck has for Animar.
Edit: Splinterfright has a good enough impact for 3 mana to justify its inclusion. Its mainly useful because it can start the dredge going when the deck otherwise is not finding the key cards it needs. This is happening more rarely now that the deck has become more streamlined, but more redundancy is always good.
@Flux:
I agree with most of what you just said, so I only have a little more to add regarding the discard effects, where I think your reasoning is a bit suspect. Karador handles removal better than probably any other non-shroud general. Sure, an early Karador makes the game easy...but if you're in a position to land an early Karador, you should be able to replay him easily too. I'm not at all convinced that spot removal is a major concern...and even if it was, wouldn't stuff like Saffi Eriksdotter/Standard Bearer/Devoted Caretaker still be better? (Standard Bearer actually seems neat, maybe I'll test that.)
Thanks for the list Gaka. It looks very strong too. I think a little meta-analysis is in order.
Flux's list and Gaka's list have 80 cards in common. I think those can safely be regarded as the core of an optimized Karador deck, give or take a couple of cards.
Iona vs Elesh Norn:
I'm inclined to agree with Gaka that Elesh Norn is better in the current metagame. In my games with Flux's list, Iona played a very small role. Oftentimes I had an opportunity to reanimate her, but didn't go for it because Iona simply wasn't enough to win the game. I'm sure Elesh Norn would have been relevant more often.
Greenseeker vs Llanowar Mentor:
These are extremely similar, so I'm sure that both are good...but one has got to be better. Points for Greenseeker: 1) it gets you mana a turn faster if you don't have land drops, 2) it color-fixes, 3) basic lands are pretty resilient, so your mana's safe. Points for Llanowar Mentor: 1) it accelerates you when you have lands in hand, 2) synergy with Skullclamp and Gaea's Cradle. I'd say that Llanowar Mentor is much higher variance: it's better than Greenseeker if everything is working perfectly, but it's much worse if things aren't ideal. Considering that the only time you really need either of these cards is when things aren't working well, I'm inclined to side with Greenseeker. I could easily be missing something, but when it comes right down it a 1 land hand with Greenseeker seems much better than a 1 land hand with Llanowar Mentor, and that's the situation where these cards seem most relevant. I'd like to hear Gaka's argument for Mentor over Greenseeker though.
Xantid Swarm vs Scavenging Ooze:
Pick your hate card. This choice is highly meta dependent, but I'm inclined to think that Ooze is higher impact. Swarm is quite good early against heavy blue decks, but it's chaff in most other circumstances. Ooze is a broader answer that's also a pretty decent beater in a pinch. It should also be one of the most important cards in the mirror, a matchup that I anticipate being very relevant in the future. I think I actually like Grand Abolisher better than Xantid Swarm these days, since Swarm gets eaten by Clique or Wydwen cast in response to the trigger, but Ooze seems more relevant than Grand Abolisher too.
The rest don't line up as neatly. If I had to rank them in order of how much they belong in this deck, I think I'd say Weathered Wayfarer > Golgari Thug > Fiend Hunter > Academy Rector > Braids. I'm not sure about Golgari Thug since I haven't played with it, but more dredge seems like a fine idea, and the ability isn't irrelevant. I think Weathered Wayfarer is an auto-include. Golgari Thug deserves some testing (or testimonial from Gaka). Fiend Hunter is borderline due to its fragility, which means it's a probable candidate for a cut. Preacher seems better at the same cost, though the cards are pretty similar and running both is not out of the question. Academy Rector just seems out of place. I know that Survival of the Fittest is the best card in the deck, but this is going too far. It's too clunky. I don't think Braids really fits what this deck is trying to do, and her relevance falls off extremely rapidly after turn 3-4.
I've already suggested cutting all of these cards on Flux's list, so I don't have to work hard to justify changing them out. I do think Living Death should stay though.
On Gaka's list, I definitely like Phyrexian Arena and Enlightened Tutor. I'm not sold on the rest, though none of them is bad.
GSZ seems lacking in oomph somehow...there are only a few green creatures that I'm happy to GSZ for, most notably Dryad Arbor or Harmonic Sliver. That said, it's good early and it's good late--it's only bad when you mill it. That's probably enough to justify its inclusion so long as the creature count remains high enough.
I don't really like Night's Whisper here. The effect isn't powerful enough to justify a noncreature slot.
I don't know how I feel about Reanimate, but I don't like Unearth. Cutting discard actually makes Reanimate quite a bit worse. It's a very strong card, but the fact that it can often be dead early game is a problem. I can't help but feel that in most situations where Reanimate would be good, you probably don't need it to win. Unearth is just a worse Reanimate.
I'm inclined to say no to Worm Harvest, but maybe that's wrong. It's just such a late game card, and it's usually fairly low impact even when it's good. It's similar to Reanimate in that it's very good in situations where you should be winning anyway, but worse in that it's never situationally awesome. It's nice that it's still live when you mill it, but I'm not convinced it's strong enough, despite some very nice Gaea's Cradle/Skullclamp synergies.
Worldly Tutor seems pretty bad to me. It's fine on turn 1, and really not very good after that. I think we can do better.
As much as I love cycling lands with Life from the Loam (and I really love it), I'm not sure this is the place for it. This deck needs a few extra lands in hand more than most since it aims to start dredging every turn ASAP, so I very rarely feel flooded. If you can get the engine humming with Life from the Loam that's great...but you're spending a lot of mana and not advancing your board. I don't think that's really good enough these days, and I have to think that there are more powerful things you could be doing at that point anyway. Cabal Pit is sweet though.
Those are the 19 differences. Through this analysis, I've come up with the composite list I'll be testing, which I think takes the best elements from both lists. It's a little closer to Gaka's, but that's partly because I've already tested Flux's list, and Gaka's has some cards I need to test for a more informed opinion.
Thus, I'll be trying out Gaka's list with the following changes:
-Academy Rector
-Llanowar Mentor
-Night's Whisper
-Unearth
-Worm Harvest
-Worldly Tutor
-Barren Moor
-Tranquil Thicket
A few of the cards in that list I'm not at all sure about, but I think I need to try them out. Note that my list has the most creatures, so it's clearly the best In my attempt at combining the lists I'm sure I cut cards that really do belong: just convince me of what they are.
I look forward to additional discussion in refining this deck. Flux's and Gaka's lists are similar enough that I have to think they're converging on the same point: it's just a question of figuring out what those 99 cards are.
Just wondering, how viable is this deck without Loyal Retainers? This deck looks awesome but can't justify spending a $100+ on one card...
It's probably the best reanimation spell in the deck, and is the main reason to run any legendary bombs at all. 3 mana for an elesh norn, iona, or yosei? Yes please.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Yea this deck is pretty scary. Props fluxuate. It's obviously susceptible to graveyard hate but that appears to be the only weakness. exactly how much does graveyard removal hurt you? my guess is that it cripples the deck? do you feel that edric and other top decks will have to add grave hate to beat it, therefore weakening the top decks and creating a healthier metagame?
Khymera: interesting analysis about most of the cards especially the discard suite. This is sort of what you were indirectly teaching me recently... is it better to pull a threat/answer from their hand, or to simply play a threat onto the board (possibly one that they cannot deal with)? I think this point, i.e. should you always play the best 'good stuff' cards in the colors you're in no matter what general, or should even the most powerful individual cards get cut to promote more synergy, is still an open question. And an important one. As fluxuate alluded to, hymn, eternal witness, hymn is game ending. Wasteland, eternal witness, wasteland can do the same. I remember using noxious revival (technically a bad card, or at least card disadvantage) for the same effect. Also, sure duress can whiff and often sucks late game, but man if it gets jace or survival or d tutor do I let out a sigh of relief.
Also focusing too much on synergy reduces the deck's versatility - I actually liked how certain iterations of my glissa deck play differently every hand - I feel there is some value in this. Maybe there should be a happy medium between "goodstuff" and "focus"? Or is the idea to focus the deck so much that it becomes like BETTER than goodstuff could ever be? Is this possible?
I guess if you're winning, then the point is moot. Right? But it's still interesting to me to ponder... i'm all ears to any philosophy.
@Flux:
I agree with most of what you just said, so I only have a little more to add regarding the discard effects, where I think your reasoning is a bit suspect. Karador handles removal better than probably any other non-shroud general. Sure, an early Karador makes the game easy...but if you're in a position to land an early Karador, you should be able to replay him easily too. I'm not at all convinced that spot removal is a major concern...and even if it was, wouldn't stuff like Saffi Eriksdotter/Standard Bearer/Devoted Caretaker still be better?
I think the idea is that in an optimized situation, creatures clearly beat out discard 100% of the time (at least in Karador). However, there remains cards that this deck does indeed fear (i.e: anti-basic land hate, graveyard hate, faster combo), and which traditional rock based attrition cannot answer. In these situations, discard wins out. There is of course a fine line, given that the deck wants a lot of creatures, and that discard can indeed fail to advance your board state (something casting a creature can never fail to do). Regardless, I find this deck to be the most "swingy" of the good EDH decks, and that making your engine do its job better to be largely overkill; if you're getting there with Karador, there is almost nothing any opponent can do to stop you. As such, I much prefer the safety that a well timed discard spell offers me.
Iona vs Elesh Norn:
I'm inclined to agree with Gaka that Elesh Norn is better in the current metagame. In my games with Flux's list, Iona played a very small role. Oftentimes I had an opportunity to reanimate her, but didn't go for it because Iona simply wasn't enough to win the game. I'm sure Elesh Norn would have been relevant more often.
Fair enough. I still like the Birthing Pod interaction with Karador -> Iona, but I think Elesh Norn might indeed be superior.
My reasoning exactly. Greenseeker is more of a card to be viewed in situations when things are not going ideally. You also forgot the interaction with ensuring Bloodghast recursion.
Xantid Swarm has won a serious amount of games. It shines most in the tempo matchups, which can sometimes be difficult (Edric). I would suggest adding both, as I can see the merit for Scavenging Ooze. Ranger of Eos also searches for Xantid Swarm, if that changes anything.
Grand Abolisher better than Xantid Swarm these days, since Swarm gets eaten by Clique or Wydwen cast in response to the trigger, but Ooze seems more relevant than Grand Abolisher too.
Double white strains the mana base too much. My general consencus of Grand Abolisher is that its better in a one or two colored deck. It also doesnt have the continuous impact that Hymn to tourachdoes. Waiting until turn 4 or 5 to cast a Hymn is sometimes the correct play, whereas having to wait until turn 4 or turn 5 to cast Grand Abolisher is almost certaintly robbing the card of all its merit.
Thus, I'll be trying out Gaka's list with the following changes:
-Academy Rector
-Llanowar Mentor
-Night's Whisper
-Unearth
-Worm Harvest
-Worldly Tutor
-Barren Moor
-Tranquil Thicket
A few of the cards in that list I'm not at all sure about, but I think I need to try them out. Note that my list has the most creatures, so it's clearly the best In my attempt at combining the lists I'm sure I cut cards that really do belong: just convince me of what they are.
I largely agree with the suggest changes. I think you seriously underestimate Fiend Hunter's potential, as it is best suited towards dealing with generals (most players are very hesitant to risk being unable to deal with Fiend hunter, and thus leaving their general exiled forever. It thus serves as a 3 mana exile for any general). Furthermore, this deck can often sac fiend hunter with the ability on the stack to ensure an indefinite exile on any creature. Combined with Karador's ability to keep recurring fiend hunter, it is a very potent combo.
I like the addition of Preacher, and plan on adding it myself.
The only changes I would suggest are to reconsider at least Hymn + Thoughtseize, as well as to see whether or not Ranger of Eosfits into the deck (notice that your current build lacks a creature with cmc 4, something that worries me with the inclusion of Birthing Pod).
As for how the deck handles graveyard hate, well...it hurts. But it also is not unwinnable. Generally, the only time when an opponent could take out 50-60 cards with a well timed gy hate spell is when you've already locked the board down enough to win. To this I always suggest aiming for at least 2-3 Yosei lockdowns in one turn, as the effects are cumulative, and ensure you can (worst case scenario) just beat them down with current board presence. If GY hate does indeed become prevalent, cards like True Believer are easy fixes. Phyrexian Revoker also can work.
As for the point about "goodstuff" versus "syngergy", I don't think there's really a fine line at all. Goodstuff cards are valued because, regardless of your board state, they should be able to do their desired job (Thoughtseize always discard, krosan grip always destroying, etc.). Synergy cards are ones which can fulfill a desired function, if and only if you have the proper tools. Obviously this means the payoff should be much higher - which it is in a deck like Karador. Recurring a Tidehollow Sculler every turn with a sac outlet + Karador in play is infinitely more powerful than Thoughtseize. Given the ease with which this board position can be assembled, I would obviously include Sculler over Thoughtseize. The question simply becomes a matter of a comparison between the reward: risk ratio. Another example, the legendary creature + Loyal Retainerpackage indicates the same result. Obviously the deck can recur the legendary creatures consistently enough that these "synergistic" bombs win out over let's say...Grave Titan. At the same time, I don't think any graveyard themed creature merits a spot in the deck, nor does every single non-creature spell immediately get cut. There is thus, in a sense, a "medium", but I think it's much more quantifiable than one would initially think.
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Why Karador!?
Well, he's also one of the most inevitable generals in EDH, is a combo piece, and enables massive shenanigans. That too.
Why not Karador?
No, but seriously, why not Karador?
You dislike reanimator.
You like counters.
You dislike being reliant on drawing the right combo pieces.
Decklist
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Ashen Rider
1 Angel of Despair
1 Primeval Titan
1 Bone Shredder
1 Dark Confidant
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Acidic Slime
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Viscera Seer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Karmic Guide
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Academy Rector
1 Pack Rat
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Bloom Tender
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Greenseeker
1 Buried Alive
1 Dread Return
1 Life from the Loam
1 Living Death
1 Mulch
1 Unburial Rites
1 Commune with the Gods
1 Reanimate
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Grisly Salvage
1 Crop Rotation
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Nature's Claim
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Birthing Pod
1 Animate Dead
1 Necromancy
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Caves of Koilos
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Sunpetal Grove
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Woodland Cemetery
2 Forest
1 Mana Confluence
How to play Karador
1) Survive
2) Put big guy into GY
3) Reanimate
Basic principle of the deck. The deck essentially plays as straight reanimator, but with added resilience by having a mini-theme of good rock creatures, in addition to a lot of mana dorks. Karador as your general also means that with enough mana, you can hardcast your juicy reanimator targets straight from the GY.
You can also always Birthing Pod Karador into Iona. That works too.
I'll add more stuff if I can think of anything.
Thanks for reading!
Change log
Nov, 20 2011
-Skinrender
-Sheoldred
-Gaea's Herald
-Aven Mindscensor
-Snuff Out
-Arbor Elf
-Chainer's Edict
+Go For the Throat
+Peacekeeper
+Fume Spitter
+Benevolent Bodyguard
+Greenseeker
+Hymn to tourach
+Dismember
December 27, 2011
-Fume Spitter
-Shriekmaw
-Stoneforge Mystic
-Umezawa's Jitte
-Enlightened Tutor
+Sun Titan
+Kessig Cagebreakers
+Splinterfright
+Weathered Wayfarer
+Xantid Swarm
January 1, 2011
-Xantid Swarm
-Duress
-Inquisition
-Dread Return
-Braids
+Golgari Thug
+Green Sun's Zenith
+Captain Sisay
+Preacher
+Scavenging Ooze
April 22, 2013
Total revamp of the deck to make advantage of Protean Hulk and Bitterblossom.
Move away from traditional win targets, re-inclusion of Natural Order to get Hulk, and Prime Time to take advantage of NO as well.
Other cards like Acidic Slime and more rampers also included.
April 24, 2013
-Razorverge Thicket
+ Saffi Eriksdotter
April 28, 2013
-Wood Elves
-Mindslicer
-Golgari Thug
-Iona
-Teeg
-Bitterblossom
+Elesh Norn
+Yosei
+Academy Rector
+Pattern of Rebirth
+Carrion Feeder
+Sin Collector
May 13, 2013
-Golgari Grave Troll
-Grisly Savage
-Greenseeker
-Garruk Relentless
-Phyrexian Arena
+Necromancy
+Recurring Nightmare
+Aven Mindcensor
+Wood Elves
+Vindicate
May 15, 2013
-Unburial Rites
+Sun Titan
June 23, 2013
-Sun Titan
-Griselbrand
-Stinkweed Imp
-Uvenwald Tracker
-Plains
-Forest
+Bloodthrone Vampire
+Eladamri's Call
+Elesh Norn
+Murmuring Bosk
+Apprentice Necromancer
+Cavern of Souls
September 08, 2013
Update to finally accommodate Hulk re-banning - too many changes to keep track of
September 16, 2013
Loyal Retainers banning - out goes big legendaries reliant on Loyal Retainers, in goes Jitte to augment the Rock direction of the deck, Iona to be the one big tutor target, and a new infinite combo.
-Elesh Norn
-Loyal Retainers
-Entomb
-Griselbrand
+Umezawa's Jitte
+Kitchen Finks
+Archangel of Thune
+Iona
August 11, 2014
Complete overhaul to acomodate Oloro banning -- Back to straight reanimator!
August 17, 2014
-Necrotic Ooze
-Triskelion
-Phyrexian Devourer
-Green Sun's Zenith
-Leonin Relic Warder
-Reveillark
+Reclamation Sage
+Angel of Despair
+Primeval Titan
+Tidehollow Sculler
+Pack Rat
+Academy Rector
I like this deck, and having played against it, I know it's quite good. I don't really have many suggestions.
But, I do think that hymn to tourach really deserves a spot. It's just so backbreaking that I can't see black decks not running it.
Also, I've tried to find the ruling for this, but would Carionette work on Animar? If so that may be something to look into.
-Sheoldred -> Too clunky, and I never found myself lacking a win condition (also the worst of the legendary creatures)
-Snuff out -> Too situational
-Gaea's Herald -> Too situational, doesnt improve the bad matchups
-Chainer's Edict -> Too cute
-Arbor Elf -> More controverisal, accel is always good. However, I often felt like I didnt have the forest
-Aven Mindscensor -> Too reactive in a proactive deck
-Skinrender -> 4 mana for a 3/3. Also doesnt kill any relevant creatures that Shriekmaw or Bone Shredder couldnt (Zur / Animar / Grave Titan / etc).
+Greenseeker -> Another discard outlet. Also gets me lands when Im dredging every turn
+Fume Spitter -> Randomly kills Confidants / Mother of Runes / Mana Dorks / Etc. Makes Karador cost less
+Peacekeeper -> Should have had this in a while ago. Stops Zur, Eldrazi, Edric, etc. Like Spore frog, but a million times better.
+Go For The Throat / Dismember -> Need more removal
+Benevolent Bodyguard -> Good protection for Karador.
+Hymn to tourach -> Too good to not be in
Skinrender works on black/artifact creatures.
Skinrender does target black or artifact creatures, but the black or artifact creatures which see play all tend to have 4 toughness or more, making Skinrender rather bad.
The titans because they make card advantage and are good beaters. The extra re-animation spells because frankly they are way faster than dread return and animate dead can be recurred with sun titan neating you much larger creatures at the same time.
Necro sliver gives you a recurrable vindicate that goes with the general.
Also for equipment I find the swords to be leagues ahead of jitte if you general is central to your game plan, the protection can make or break games.
GBW Teneb EDH
BW Titan control
Reanimate and Animate Dead were considered, but are on a whole much worse than Loyal Retainers. Furthermore, theres nothing really huge in the deck to bring back aside from Iona and Yosei.
Necrotic Sliver: Incredibly slow. Cant really think of many matchups where its useful, except for maybe Zur.
Primeval Titan: Gets Bazaar, but on a whole, just a 6/6 trample in this deck. Lackluster.
Sun Titan: Long been considered, a great endgame finisher. I'm hesistant to add in another 6 drop, because it increases the curve so much, but Sun Titan probably should be in regardless. Ill see if I can think of cuts.
Didn't like Troll since the highest I got in a fast game is.... 1. That includes all the dredge package. So I drop him.... It's not perfect since I can't find a lot of sac creatures D:
On a brightside, Reanimate+Titan or something is worth the life in early turn. Earliest if turn 2 Reanimate Green Titan using Entomb.
In addition, with discussion with my friend, RoE package is beneficial to grab Spore or Kami. I manage to win using them against Kaalia and Edric on the long run.
1x Angel of Despair
1x Archon of Justice
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Bone Shredder
1x Coffin Queen
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Elvish Visionary
1x Eternal Witness
1x Farhaven Elf
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Fierce Empath
1x Genesis
1x Hell's Caretaker
1x Karmic Guide
1x Krosan Tusker
1x Necrotic Sliver
1x Primeval Titan
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Regal Force
1x Reveilark
1x Sakura Tribe-Elder
1x Shriekmaw
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Stinkweed Imp
1x Sun Titan
1x Wood Elves
1x Wurmcoil Engine
LR Package:6
1x Loyal Retainer
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Myojin of Cleansing Fire
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Ranger of Eos
1x Kami of False Hope
1x Mother of Runes
1x Serra Ascendant
1x Spore Frog
SFM Package:4
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Skullclamp
Other Artifacts:2
1x Birthing Pod
1x Sol Ring
Enchantments:5
1x Animate Dead
1x Necromancy
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Survival of the Fittest
Instants:4
1x Entomb
1x Mortify
1x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery:9
1x Buried Alive
1x Damnation
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Harmonize
1x Life from the Loam
1x Reanimate
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Wrath of God
Lands:36
6x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Arid Mesa
1x Bayou
1x Command Tower
1x Fetid Heath
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hall of Bandit Lord
1x High Market
1x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Strip Mine
1x Temple Garden
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Twilight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wooded Foothills
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
The curve on your deck also seems incredibly high. How often do you have opening hands of Tooth&Nail, Yosei, Sheoldred, etc? Most of your plays seem to begin around turn 3-4, which is way too late against a deck like Edric.
Ranger seems interesting, and probably worth adding now that so many utility creatures sit at 1 cmc.
Im also going by the French banlist, so Sol Ring is not allowed.
Including Serra Ascendant...
With those 2 out, I would add Viscera Seer, Llanowar Elves and/or BoP.
Tooth and Nail is something "I wished I have those when I'm top decking" that's from Dredging too much and/or no hand. I'm also thinking adding ramps that I see a lot running around.
The High CMC is just for the tempo when Karador is out pulling out Karmic/Loyal in a jiffy. It works so much quicker if I have the mana. Sadly our color doesn't give us anything to give a draw like Eldric does. If I played long enough, I might drop the high cmc guys if it hinders my deck completely.
Edit:
This is my list now: Took out the Ring, Mine, and Serra.
1x Angel of Despair
1x Archon of Justice
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Bone Shredder
1x Coffin Queen
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Elvish Visionary
1x Eternal Witness
1x Farhaven Elf
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Fierce Empath
1x Genesis
1x Hell's Caretaker
1x Karmic Guide
1x Krosan Tusker
1x Necrotic Sliver
1x Primeval Titan
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Regal Force
1x Reveilark
1x Sakura Tribe-Elder
1x Shriekmaw
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Stinkweed Imp
1x Sun Titan
1x Wood Elves
1x Wurmcoil Engine
LR Package:6
1x Loyal Retainer
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Myojin of Cleansing Fire
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Ranger of Eos
1x Kami of False Hope
1x Mother of Runes
1x Serra Ascendant
1x Spore Frog
1x Viscera Seer
1x Llanowar Elves
SFM Package:4
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Skullclamp
Other Artifacts:1
1x Birthing Pod
Enchantments:5
1x Animate Dead
1x Necromancy
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Survival of the Fittest
Instants:4
1x Entomb
1x Mortify
1x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery:9
1x Buried Alive
1x Damnation
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Harmonize
1x Life from the Loam
1x Reanimate
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Wrath of God
7x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Arid Mesa
1x Bayou
1x Command Tower
1x Fetid Heath
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hall of Bandit Lord
1x High Market
1x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Temple Garden
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Twilight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wooded Foothills
Edit:
Sadly, I can't use this deck against Edric. I don't have enough fire-power to outrun him. Best candidates for them is to reuse. In addition, we lack draw power which I prefer using TnN+Regal+Avenger and of course Harmonize
1x Braids, Cabal Minion
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Keen Sense
1x Silhana Ledgewalker
1x Acidic Slime
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Skittles
For non-Edric
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Chameleon Colossus
Edit:
Yeah... I lower my deck curve. Almost like yours but I'm adding Doran to the arsenal. Reveillark is awesome if you manage to pull him out which is like a 2nd Ranger of Eos.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
Probably controversial changes, so Ill explain them!
-Shriekmaw: Too slow, sorcery speed, too many creatures Im scared off are black (or Animar). This was an easy cut. Boneshredder remains much more useful as it has flying, and can be brought back by Sun Titan
-Stoneforge Mystic + Umezawa's Jitte: Jitte + Stoneforge were both only in to combat Animar, and they simply dont do a good job of even that. I often dredge skullclamp, and searching for a Jitte when Im doing my graveyard interactions is incredibly lackluster. They've been cut for better stuff.
-Fume Spitter: Too cute. Not even good against Edric.
-Enlightened Tutor: A very good card, which got exponentially worse as the game continued. Really, this card was only good in the first 4-5 turns, which ultimately killed it for me. Late game, this deck aims to dredge every turn, which means the "put on top" clause really kills this card. Furthermore, it does put you down a card, which does nothing for the control matchup.
+Kessig Cagebreakers: Only in because Gaka kept on pestering me, but a surprising all star. Threatening lethal at virtually any point in the game is definitely worth 5 mana.
+Sun Titan: Should have been in a while ago. Allows this deck to do nonsensical things, i.e: Ill Yosei lock you 3 times in one turn.
+Weathered Wayfarer: This should be an easy one. Gets me Cradle + Bazaar. Incredible one drop
+Splinterfright: A new goody from Innistrad. Mills me cards for Karador, and gets very, very big, very, very quickly. A very threatening 3 drop.
+Xantid Swarm: Replaces Tutor to bring the creature count back up to a nice 40. Also is an amazing one drop versus control, especially decks like Edric and Clique, where Swarm can often force through an early backbreaking Karador ftw.
Success.
Thought about Pit Keeper at all? I like it as a way to tutor for a creature in my yard, and is a nice clamp target.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
This deck is one of those unique cases where cards that would be staples in any other deck are not optimal here, due to interactions with the general. When synergy is more important than sheer power, you've got something special going on. Karador is strong enough to make that happen.
This is by far my favorite version of Karador (though I haven't seen Gaka's list, hint hint). Most of the decks I see online have no more than 25-30 creatures, and as a result they just don't function as effectively.
I'm definitely in favor of the most recent changes, in that the creatures you cut consistently underperformed for me. I'm less sure about Enlightened Tutor, but you may be right to cut it. Survival of the Fittest/Sylvan Library/Skullclamp are so dominating early game that it's hard to justify cutting another way to find the best one for the situation. It's certainly true that it's much less useful after the first few turns...but if you're dredging every turn anyway, how often are you really drawing it late? My primary metric for assessing cards in any deck is how happy I am to see it in my opening hand, not late-game, and Enlightened Tutor is very strong there. Maybe strong enough to be worth keeping, despite falling off in later turns. You may be right to cut it, but I'm least sure about this one.
I haven't tested your recent additions, but they seem good. Weathered Wayfarer is one I was going to suggest myself. The only one I'm not sure about is Splinterfright: I'm a little worried about getting that first creature in the graveyard to make it playable. It seems like it will often be uncastable at the time when you most want it (like on turn 2 off a mana dork), and potentially win-more after that (since the slow mill won't matter much once your graveyard is stocked). It certainly can be large though. I haven't tested it yet so I can't say anything with much conviction, but I'd keep a close eye on this one.
The cards I most consistently found myself wanting to add during testing (besides Weathered Wayfarer) were Phyrexian Tower, Reveillark, and Saffi Eriksdotter. The opportunity cost on Phyrexian Tower is extremely low, and it can replace Viscera Seer in a Yosei lock. Weathered Wayfarer makes it even better.
Reveillark and Saffi just feel right. Saffi is comparable to Benevolent Bodyguard, but with a lot of additional combo (or wrath-proof) potential. Reveillark is pure value here, against with combo potential. Both cards can go nuts with Karmic Guide (or with each other) to do some very unfair things. It's possible that these cards simply aren't effects that you need, which could justify their exclusion, but they're undeniably powerful and synergistic and seem worth trying, at the least.
I'd also think about trying Preacher and Ranger of Eos. Preacher is kind of a pet card of mine, but it's even better in this deck than any I've ever played it in. It's removal on a creature (which is exactly what you need), and it goes great with sacrifice outlets like Viscera Seer and Phyrexian Tower. Ranger of Eos is a little slow, but you do have a huge number of powerful 1-drops in here. As a tutor and a creature, it might be worthwhile. You might also consider working in Bojuka Bog and/or Scavenging Ooze, just so you have some way of interacting with an opponent's graveyard.
Pit Keeper is cute, but seems a little sketchy to me. Is a conditional Raise Dead really what you want? Probably not. And if it somehow is, Undertaker seems like a way better choice to me, given that you actually want a few discard outlets.
I couldn't tell you just what to cut for these suggestions, but the weaker cards remaining, in my experience, include Greenseeker, Dread Return, Hymn to Tourach, and Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize. Greenseeker has just never been relevant for me as anything other than Skullclamp fodder. Dread Return is usually awkward, since I frequently don't have 3 creatures in play, let alone 3 I want to sacrifice. The discard is obviously fine, but has a bit of dissynergy with the rest of the deck, just in that they're not creatures. Hymn in particular is problematic in that it doesn't fit the curve and opens you up to being blown out by Misdirection, a card which is becoming pretty popular. Maybe you should just be playing more creatures.
The rest of the deck seems extremely tight. I almost want to suggest cutting Living Death since I've found it impossible to ever draw, so it just messes up my dredges, but I'm sure the card wins any game in which it resolves, so it probably ought to stay.
Again, this deck is tier 1 and quite different from anything else in the format. It deserves a lot of respect. As far as I can tell, no one in France is playing anything like this, but I think this list could easily win a French tournament: most of the top decks there are unprepared to handle the threats this deck presents. You've done a great job tuning it Fluxuate.
In fact, Tectonic Edge was cut a while ago for Phyrexian Tower for precisely the reasons you listed, and Bojuka Bog simply had been neglected from the original post, despite having been part of the deck since day 1.
Saffi / Reveillark / Ranger were all tested at different times in the deck.
Saffi / Reveillark were part of the original decklist, and suffered from a lack of board impact. Saffi protects against board wipes, but wraths are incredibly easy for this deck to handle. Especially considering that very little of the answers in this format are destruction based (bounce / steal / exile), Saffi was simpy a 2/2 dead card far too often. Reveillark, for 6 mana, also couldn't bring back anything too relevant; at least not relevant enough to justify its inclusion. Sun Titan does far more for the same cost.
Saffi and Reveillark might be worth it if I also include Mirror Entity, but thats 3 slots to fit, 2 of which (Reveillark and Mirror Entity) seem like dead cards far too often. What will most likely happen is that only Saffi makes the cut simply because of the interactions she can spawn with cards like Yosei and Boneshredder.
Ranger is often tossed back and forth. I think with the addition of Wayfarer, he justifies a spot in the eck.
As for the discard effects, they're necessary tools for the deck; atleast, that's what testing indicates. If I can discard an answer to Karador, and consequently, land an early general, the game is generally sealed. Hymn does indeed strain the manabase, and was cut, then readded, then cut, etc. It often does not make an immense impact, but a game or two has taken place in which searching for an eternal witness to bring back Hymn was my only out.
Greenseeker is without a doubt worth its position. Consider its one of the only ways the deck has to dredge every turn, and still make consistent land drops. Its also a repeated discard outlet for cards like Darkblast and Life From the Loam. Its far, far better than it initally appears.
Upon review of your comment, I realized I had neglected to mention Preacher. It does seem to be a bit of a pet card of yours, but in all honestly, it does provide the exact kind of effect this deck needs. Repeated creature removal (given the right board position) is a very powerful effect. It also can deal extremely effectively with Zur (one of the worst matchups). This card for sure warrants a spot.
Lastly, Living Death is simply a 5 mana "win the game if uncountered" card. It does indeed very often land in the graveyard and have no effect, but remember that Eternal Witnesscan recur it if necessary. It also is one of the few outs the deck has for Animar.
Edit: Splinterfright has a good enough impact for 3 mana to justify its inclusion. Its mainly useful because it can start the dredge going when the deck otherwise is not finding the key cards it needs. This is happening more rarely now that the deck has become more streamlined, but more redundancy is always good.
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Creatures - 39
1 Academy Rector
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Bloodghast
1 Bloom Tender
1 Bone Shredder
1 Dark Confidant
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kessig Cagebreakers
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Llanowar Mentor
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Mother of Runes
1 Peacekeeper
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Splinterfright
1 Spore Frog
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Viscera Seer
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts - 2
1 Birthing Pod
1 Skullclamp
Sorceries - 9
1 Buried Alive
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
1 Night's Whisper
1 Reanimate
1 Unburial Rites
1 Unearth
1 Worm Harvest
Instants - 7
1 Darkblast
1 Dismember
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Go for the Throat
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Worldly Tutor
Enchantments - 3
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
Lands - 38
1 Arid Mesa
1 Barren Moor
1 Bayou
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Flooded Strand
4 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Woodland Cemetary
In the multicolored weenie environment we're in - Elesh Norn >>>> Iona.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I agree with most of what you just said, so I only have a little more to add regarding the discard effects, where I think your reasoning is a bit suspect. Karador handles removal better than probably any other non-shroud general. Sure, an early Karador makes the game easy...but if you're in a position to land an early Karador, you should be able to replay him easily too. I'm not at all convinced that spot removal is a major concern...and even if it was, wouldn't stuff like Saffi Eriksdotter/Standard Bearer/Devoted Caretaker still be better? (Standard Bearer actually seems neat, maybe I'll test that.)
Thanks for the list Gaka. It looks very strong too. I think a little meta-analysis is in order.
Flux's list and Gaka's list have 80 cards in common. I think those can safely be regarded as the core of an optimized Karador deck, give or take a couple of cards.
Creature differences:
Flux:
Gaka:
Iona vs Elesh Norn:
I'm inclined to agree with Gaka that Elesh Norn is better in the current metagame. In my games with Flux's list, Iona played a very small role. Oftentimes I had an opportunity to reanimate her, but didn't go for it because Iona simply wasn't enough to win the game. I'm sure Elesh Norn would have been relevant more often.
Greenseeker vs Llanowar Mentor:
These are extremely similar, so I'm sure that both are good...but one has got to be better. Points for Greenseeker: 1) it gets you mana a turn faster if you don't have land drops, 2) it color-fixes, 3) basic lands are pretty resilient, so your mana's safe. Points for Llanowar Mentor: 1) it accelerates you when you have lands in hand, 2) synergy with Skullclamp and Gaea's Cradle. I'd say that Llanowar Mentor is much higher variance: it's better than Greenseeker if everything is working perfectly, but it's much worse if things aren't ideal. Considering that the only time you really need either of these cards is when things aren't working well, I'm inclined to side with Greenseeker. I could easily be missing something, but when it comes right down it a 1 land hand with Greenseeker seems much better than a 1 land hand with Llanowar Mentor, and that's the situation where these cards seem most relevant. I'd like to hear Gaka's argument for Mentor over Greenseeker though.
Xantid Swarm vs Scavenging Ooze:
Pick your hate card. This choice is highly meta dependent, but I'm inclined to think that Ooze is higher impact. Swarm is quite good early against heavy blue decks, but it's chaff in most other circumstances. Ooze is a broader answer that's also a pretty decent beater in a pinch. It should also be one of the most important cards in the mirror, a matchup that I anticipate being very relevant in the future. I think I actually like Grand Abolisher better than Xantid Swarm these days, since Swarm gets eaten by Clique or Wydwen cast in response to the trigger, but Ooze seems more relevant than Grand Abolisher too.
The rest don't line up as neatly. If I had to rank them in order of how much they belong in this deck, I think I'd say Weathered Wayfarer > Golgari Thug > Fiend Hunter > Academy Rector > Braids. I'm not sure about Golgari Thug since I haven't played with it, but more dredge seems like a fine idea, and the ability isn't irrelevant. I think Weathered Wayfarer is an auto-include. Golgari Thug deserves some testing (or testimonial from Gaka). Fiend Hunter is borderline due to its fragility, which means it's a probable candidate for a cut. Preacher seems better at the same cost, though the cards are pretty similar and running both is not out of the question. Academy Rector just seems out of place. I know that Survival of the Fittest is the best card in the deck, but this is going too far. It's too clunky. I don't think Braids really fits what this deck is trying to do, and her relevance falls off extremely rapidly after turn 3-4.
Noncreature spells:
Flux:
Gaka:
I've already suggested cutting all of these cards on Flux's list, so I don't have to work hard to justify changing them out. I do think Living Death should stay though.
On Gaka's list, I definitely like Phyrexian Arena and Enlightened Tutor. I'm not sold on the rest, though none of them is bad.
GSZ seems lacking in oomph somehow...there are only a few green creatures that I'm happy to GSZ for, most notably Dryad Arbor or Harmonic Sliver. That said, it's good early and it's good late--it's only bad when you mill it. That's probably enough to justify its inclusion so long as the creature count remains high enough.
I don't really like Night's Whisper here. The effect isn't powerful enough to justify a noncreature slot.
I don't know how I feel about Reanimate, but I don't like Unearth. Cutting discard actually makes Reanimate quite a bit worse. It's a very strong card, but the fact that it can often be dead early game is a problem. I can't help but feel that in most situations where Reanimate would be good, you probably don't need it to win. Unearth is just a worse Reanimate.
I'm inclined to say no to Worm Harvest, but maybe that's wrong. It's just such a late game card, and it's usually fairly low impact even when it's good. It's similar to Reanimate in that it's very good in situations where you should be winning anyway, but worse in that it's never situationally awesome. It's nice that it's still live when you mill it, but I'm not convinced it's strong enough, despite some very nice Gaea's Cradle/Skullclamp synergies.
Worldly Tutor seems pretty bad to me. It's fine on turn 1, and really not very good after that. I think we can do better.
Lands:
Flux:
Gaka:
As much as I love cycling lands with Life from the Loam (and I really love it), I'm not sure this is the place for it. This deck needs a few extra lands in hand more than most since it aims to start dredging every turn ASAP, so I very rarely feel flooded. If you can get the engine humming with Life from the Loam that's great...but you're spending a lot of mana and not advancing your board. I don't think that's really good enough these days, and I have to think that there are more powerful things you could be doing at that point anyway. Cabal Pit is sweet though.
Those are the 19 differences. Through this analysis, I've come up with the composite list I'll be testing, which I think takes the best elements from both lists. It's a little closer to Gaka's, but that's partly because I've already tested Flux's list, and Gaka's has some cards I need to test for a more informed opinion.
Thus, I'll be trying out Gaka's list with the following changes:
-Academy Rector
-Llanowar Mentor
-Night's Whisper
-Unearth
-Worm Harvest
-Worldly Tutor
-Barren Moor
-Tranquil Thicket
+Weathered Wayfarer
+Preacher
+Fiend Hunter
+Greenseeker
+Saffi Eriksdotter
+Living Death
+Brushland
+Llanowar Wastes
A few of the cards in that list I'm not at all sure about, but I think I need to try them out. Note that my list has the most creatures, so it's clearly the best In my attempt at combining the lists I'm sure I cut cards that really do belong: just convince me of what they are.
I look forward to additional discussion in refining this deck. Flux's and Gaka's lists are similar enough that I have to think they're converging on the same point: it's just a question of figuring out what those 99 cards are.
It's probably the best reanimation spell in the deck, and is the main reason to run any legendary bombs at all. 3 mana for an elesh norn, iona, or yosei? Yes please.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Khymera: interesting analysis about most of the cards especially the discard suite. This is sort of what you were indirectly teaching me recently... is it better to pull a threat/answer from their hand, or to simply play a threat onto the board (possibly one that they cannot deal with)? I think this point, i.e. should you always play the best 'good stuff' cards in the colors you're in no matter what general, or should even the most powerful individual cards get cut to promote more synergy, is still an open question. And an important one. As fluxuate alluded to, hymn, eternal witness, hymn is game ending. Wasteland, eternal witness, wasteland can do the same. I remember using noxious revival (technically a bad card, or at least card disadvantage) for the same effect. Also, sure duress can whiff and often sucks late game, but man if it gets jace or survival or d tutor do I let out a sigh of relief.
Also focusing too much on synergy reduces the deck's versatility - I actually liked how certain iterations of my glissa deck play differently every hand - I feel there is some value in this. Maybe there should be a happy medium between "goodstuff" and "focus"? Or is the idea to focus the deck so much that it becomes like BETTER than goodstuff could ever be? Is this possible?
I guess if you're winning, then the point is moot. Right? But it's still interesting to me to ponder... i'm all ears to any philosophy.
I think the idea is that in an optimized situation, creatures clearly beat out discard 100% of the time (at least in Karador). However, there remains cards that this deck does indeed fear (i.e: anti-basic land hate, graveyard hate, faster combo), and which traditional rock based attrition cannot answer. In these situations, discard wins out. There is of course a fine line, given that the deck wants a lot of creatures, and that discard can indeed fail to advance your board state (something casting a creature can never fail to do). Regardless, I find this deck to be the most "swingy" of the good EDH decks, and that making your engine do its job better to be largely overkill; if you're getting there with Karador, there is almost nothing any opponent can do to stop you. As such, I much prefer the safety that a well timed discard spell offers me.
Fair enough. I still like the Birthing Pod interaction with Karador -> Iona, but I think Elesh Norn might indeed be superior.
My reasoning exactly. Greenseeker is more of a card to be viewed in situations when things are not going ideally. You also forgot the interaction with ensuring Bloodghast recursion.
Xantid Swarm has won a serious amount of games. It shines most in the tempo matchups, which can sometimes be difficult (Edric). I would suggest adding both, as I can see the merit for Scavenging Ooze. Ranger of Eos also searches for Xantid Swarm, if that changes anything.
Double white strains the mana base too much. My general consencus of Grand Abolisher is that its better in a one or two colored deck. It also doesnt have the continuous impact that Hymn to tourachdoes. Waiting until turn 4 or 5 to cast a Hymn is sometimes the correct play, whereas having to wait until turn 4 or turn 5 to cast Grand Abolisher is almost certaintly robbing the card of all its merit.
I largely agree with the suggest changes. I think you seriously underestimate Fiend Hunter's potential, as it is best suited towards dealing with generals (most players are very hesitant to risk being unable to deal with Fiend hunter, and thus leaving their general exiled forever. It thus serves as a 3 mana exile for any general). Furthermore, this deck can often sac fiend hunter with the ability on the stack to ensure an indefinite exile on any creature. Combined with Karador's ability to keep recurring fiend hunter, it is a very potent combo.
I like the addition of Preacher, and plan on adding it myself.
The only changes I would suggest are to reconsider at least Hymn + Thoughtseize, as well as to see whether or not Ranger of Eosfits into the deck (notice that your current build lacks a creature with cmc 4, something that worries me with the inclusion of Birthing Pod).
As for how the deck handles graveyard hate, well...it hurts. But it also is not unwinnable. Generally, the only time when an opponent could take out 50-60 cards with a well timed gy hate spell is when you've already locked the board down enough to win. To this I always suggest aiming for at least 2-3 Yosei lockdowns in one turn, as the effects are cumulative, and ensure you can (worst case scenario) just beat them down with current board presence. If GY hate does indeed become prevalent, cards like True Believer are easy fixes. Phyrexian Revoker also can work.
As for the point about "goodstuff" versus "syngergy", I don't think there's really a fine line at all. Goodstuff cards are valued because, regardless of your board state, they should be able to do their desired job (Thoughtseize always discard, krosan grip always destroying, etc.). Synergy cards are ones which can fulfill a desired function, if and only if you have the proper tools. Obviously this means the payoff should be much higher - which it is in a deck like Karador. Recurring a Tidehollow Sculler every turn with a sac outlet + Karador in play is infinitely more powerful than Thoughtseize. Given the ease with which this board position can be assembled, I would obviously include Sculler over Thoughtseize. The question simply becomes a matter of a comparison between the reward: risk ratio. Another example, the legendary creature + Loyal Retainerpackage indicates the same result. Obviously the deck can recur the legendary creatures consistently enough that these "synergistic" bombs win out over let's say...Grave Titan. At the same time, I don't think any graveyard themed creature merits a spot in the deck, nor does every single non-creature spell immediately get cut. There is thus, in a sense, a "medium", but I think it's much more quantifiable than one would initially think.