I think Jar is going to give you the same problems Sun Titan was giving you. Yes it's amazing when it happens, but you will struggle to get to that point in most games.
Couple more changes. Replaced Sword of Light and Shadow with Mask of Memory, subject to testing. SOLAS does protect against a lot of targeted removal, but it's way more mana intensive, and Mask of Memory is much better for the card advantage. SOLAS might go back in to replace something else. Also replaced the vanilla flier Leonin Skyhunter with Samurai of the Pale Curtain, though I'd like to get the Skyhunter back in there if some other 2+ mana card gets cut. (SOLAS and Samurai of the Pale Curtain have negative synergy, so that was part of the reason these changes went hand-in-hand.)
Edit: On second thought, SOLAS is back in, and the much more passive Aura of Silence is out for now.
A couple more changes... Decided that the minimal amount of artifact/enchantment hate still in the deck is probably not worth it compared to running more creatures. In addition, Oblivion Ring was frequently acting to my opponents' benefit. Hence:
Small change to replace Spectral Rider with the mostly superior Soltari Priest. Also see the "under consideration" list I've started on the first post.
Got my brother to build a budgetized version of this deck on MODO(though he could only afford $20 on it, so no Elspeth, Swords, or Jitte).
One thing I did recommend to him which isn't in here is Inheritance. I know it looks bad, but as one of like only two draw effects in mono-W it has to be worth consideration. It can also give a reason to not over-extend into a board wipe by leaving 3 up to draw when they kill a guy. It also helps that it is only W so it doesn't have a very high overhead to gain value.
Got my brother to build a budgetized version of this deck on MODO(though he could only afford $20 on it, so no Elspeth, Swords, or Jitte).
One thing I did recommend to him which isn't in here is Inheritance. I know it looks bad, but as one of like only two draw effects in mono-W it has to be worth consideration. It can also give a reason to not over-extend into a board wipe by leaving 3 up to draw when they kill a guy. It also helps that it is only W so it doesn't have a very high overhead to gain value.
I've eyed Inheritance a few times (mostly because it's one of the only draw cards in white) but balked at the 3 activation cost. It has potential, though, and I may find room for it.
So, a few more changes. Took out Elspeth, Knight-Errant. She's very good but just too much mana for not enough board impact. Also took out Crusade and Divine Sacrament as they have had less effect than I'd hoped since I fairly often only have a two or three creatures in play. They're also the least aggressive of the Anthem effects I have (compare to the creatures who also pump, or to Honor of the Pure, which stayed because it's noticeably more powerful).
In return, I'm testing out three cards, Kataki, War's Wage, Inheritance and Thorn of Amethyst. Kataki I am very unsure about. He causes problems for some other decks, but I actually have a lot of artifacts (more than I would like, but I can't think what to cut) and sometimes only hurts me. If he doesn't work out, I'll try out True Believer, though other than Oath decks he doesn't do much useful hate. Thorn of Amethyst I think may not be aggressive enough a play to be warranted, but we'll see how it works out. Inheritance may similarly be too slow/mana intensive, but it will probably help with the late game a bit.
Well, my bro piloted Thalia to a 5-2 showing, taking first in the League so I guess he's doin' something right, ha.
He did end up cutting Inheritance as keeping 3 up is harsh he said and counter-productive to his game plan. Similarly, I think you adding Kataki, War's Wage is a mistake as well because I'm not sure you can pay for all your equipments so it will un-neededly slow you down. Likewise with Thorn of Amethyst.
He's actually playing a bit more 'Yard hate than you are, he cut Stonecloaker as very seldom did he actually have the three to use it, and when he did, it wasn't that impactul. So he is running Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus instead. As this is a budget deck on a $20 limit, he is also running Cloudgoat Ranger and he just recently added Knight-Captain of Eos as "guys that bring little buddies" of which I feel he should cut one or the other(keep Cloudgoat, cut Knight-Captain) but he seems pretty adamant on both. And he's been successful, so it's hard to argue with him.
He also cut Selfless Cathar citing that "it doesn't do enough and a one shot anthem is not good enough".
You mentioned you cut Elspeth, Knight-Errant as it didn't impact the board enough. I'm a bit surprised by that as it makes a steady stream of dudes and what not, but my brother is playing Ajani Goldmane for the multi-anthem + vigilance so you might try old Ajani for a bit? He still wants to add an Elspeth as well, but he needs to save some tournament winnings first, ha.
edit: He's happy he was able to get a Hero of Bladehold for the deck as well. That will give the deck a lot of reach. Also, he added a card I haven't seen in your deck in Thraben Doomsayer. Three for a 2/2 that has ":symtap:: Make a 1/1 guy." I mean, you get the anthem effect much since you need to be on Fateful Hour, but it certainly seems like a reasonable card for this archetype. Just another form of virtual card advantage.
Well, my bro piloted Thalia to a 5-2 showing, taking first in the League so I guess he's doin' something right, ha.
Great! I have a winning record (10-5) with the most recent iteration of this deck as well, though have not used it in any actual tournament or quasi-tournament environments.
He did end up cutting Inheritance as keeping 3 up is harsh he said and counter-productive to his game plan. Similarly, I think you adding Kataki, War's Wage is a mistake as well because I'm not sure you can pay for all your equipments so it will un-neededly slow you down. Likewise with Thorn of Amethyst.
Kataki, War's Wage was more trouble than he was worth the one game I drew him. Yeah, gone. Inheritance I haven't drawn yet since putting it into the deck, so I'll keep it around for now, but I think it will probably end being a dud. Also dropping Thorn of Amethyst, but not sure for what yet...
He's actually playing a bit more 'Yard hate than you are, he cut Stonecloaker as very seldom did he actually have the three to use it, and when he did, it wasn't that impactul. So he is running Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus instead.
Interesting. I've never found graveyard strategies to be very common. As such, Stonecloaker isn't actually all that useful to me for its graveyard disruption, either, but it's a solid three-drop that just happens to disrupt some graveyard strategies. I've considered taking it out entirely for some more generic and cheaper beater. Does he see a lot of graveyard-based decks? It just doesn't feel like an issue to me, especially not enough of one to run otherwise dead cards like Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt (well, I suppose the Relic cantrips, but still).
As this is a budget deck on a $20 limit, he is also running Cloudgoat Ranger and he just recently added Knight-Captain of Eos as "guys that bring little buddies" of which I feel he should cut one or the other(keep Cloudgoat, cut Knight-Captain) but he seems pretty adamant on both. And he's been successful, so it's hard to argue with him.
I can see playing them on a budget, but if he's having trouble getting Stonecloaker out, surely five mana is too much? Attended Knight is also a good and less mana-intense budget option, though I don't see much use for it my current build (maybe if I put in Restoration Angel, though I'd still rather target Blade Splicer or Stoneforge Mystic or Jötun Grunt).
He also cut Selfless Cathar citing that "it doesn't do enough and a one shot anthem is not good enough".
Fair enough, but I think the need for one-drops outweighs Selfless Cathar being a somewhat meh choice. It's also an instant-speed anthem, so it can save you from certain board sweeps or opposing creature swarms. I've run out of good one-drops to consider to replace it, and I think I need as many as I have to ensure a quick opening.
You mentioned you cut Elspeth, Knight-Errant as it didn't impact the board enough. I'm a bit surprised by that as it makes a steady stream of dudes and what not, but my brother is playing Ajani Goldmane for the multi-anthem + vigilance so you might try old Ajani for a bit? He still wants to add an Elspeth as well, but he needs to save some tournament winnings first, ha.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a little slow for this deck. She is great for recovering from a Wrath, but she can only create one 1/1 a turn, and she does that for four/five mana, which comes quite late. (I actually think her +3/+3 and flying ability is more useful, since it helps gets Swords through, and I did once win with general damage [!!!] through Elspeth's pump.) No guarantees that she won't find her way back in, though.
I don't like Ajani Goldmane. He depends on there being plenty of other creatures on the battlefield; at least Elspeth can create her own army. I would also play Mikaeus, the Lunarch first.
edit: He's happy he was able to get a Hero of Bladehold for the deck as well. That will give the deck a lot of reach.
Hero of Bladehold is undoubtedly one of the best cards in this deck.
Also, he added a card I haven't seen in your deck in Thraben Doomsayer. Three for a 2/2 that has ":symtap:: Make a 1/1 guy." I mean, you get the anthem effect much since you need to be on Fateful Hour, but it certainly seems like a reasonable card for this archetype. Just another form of virtual card advantage.
Thraben Doomsayer I've considered before, think he was in here for a while. He comes out earlier than Elspeth but doesn't have her flexibility (no pump, just generates 1/1s) and gets swept away by Wraths and other creature wipes. If I do take out Stonecloaker, he may find his way in.
Great! I have a winning record (10-5) with the most recent iteration of this deck as well, though have not used it in any actual tournament or quasi-tournament environments.
I'll see if I can snag his list when he posts it on the League site that I run for the Pauper Krew clan on MODO and post it here for you.
Kataki, War's Wage was more trouble than he was worth the one game I drew him. Yeah, gone. Inheritance I haven't drawn yet since putting it into the deck, so I'll keep it around for now, but I think it will probably end being a dud. Also dropping Thorn of Amethyst, but not sure for what yet...
I had a feeling Kataki would not work the way you'd like here. My brother just found an interesting card from Legions today(I know, rare right? haha) Glowrider. It's like a second Thalia effect, and he snagged a Daru Warchief for more buffing and cost reducing(he is quite heavy on soldiers anyway currently).
Interesting. I've never found graveyard strategies to be very common. As such, Stonecloaker isn't actually all that useful to me for its graveyard disruption, either, but it's a solid three-drop that just happens to disrupt some graveyard strategies. I've considered taking it out entirely for some more generic and cheaper beater. Does he see a lot of graveyard-based decks? It just doesn't feel like an issue to me, especially not enough of one to run otherwise dead cards like Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt (well, I suppose the Relic cantrips, but still).
We have a Mimeoplasm deck in the environment that plays a lot of dredge, so we've found it required. though I am of the opinion you can never have enough 'Yard hate in a deck so he should probably put it back in. but his deck, not mine, what ca I do?
I can see playing them on a budget, but if he's having trouble getting Stonecloaker out, surely five mana is too much? Attended Knight is also a good and less mana-intense budget option, though I don't see much use for it my current build (maybe if I put in Restoration Angel, though I'd still rather target Blade Splicer or Stoneforge Mystic or Jötun Grunt).
I must have misspoke. I meant that while he can get to five alright some games(that's his target mana because Thalia'd 'Geddon is five) that he doesn't find a decent opportunity to use Stoney with three up. he already has Attended Knight though.
He also can't get a Resto-Angel atm for her insane(rightfully so) popularity but his next "big money card" to get online is Land Tax.
Fair enough, but I think the need for one-drops outweighs Selfless Cathar being a somewhat meh choice. It's also an instant-speed anthem, so it can save you from certain board sweeps or opposing creature swarms. I've run out of good one-drops to consider to replace it, and I think I need as many as I have to ensure a quick opening.
Fair enough. I think he needs a few more one drops too, but you know some people, they'd rather play the big splashy cards than the small utility guys that actually are the work horses, haha.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a little slow for this deck. She is great for recovering from a Wrath, but she can only create one 1/1 a turn, and she does that for four/five mana, which comes quite late. (I actually think her +3/+3 and flying ability is more useful, since it helps gets Swords through, and I did once win with general damage [!!!] through Elspeth's pump.) No guarantees that she won't find her way back in, though.
I don't like Ajani Goldmane. He depends on there being plenty of other creatures on the battlefield; at least Elspeth can create her own army. I would also play Mikaeus, the Lunarch first.
He's just now adding Mikaeus which I've never been terribly fond of, but again, his deck, his choices ha. I agree Elspeth is usually better than Goldmane, but Elspeth is like $12, where Goldmane was like in dollar territory online.
Thraben Doomsayer I've considered before, think he was in here for a while. He comes out earlier than Elspeth but doesn't have her flexibility (no pump, just generates 1/1s) and gets swept away by Wraths and other creature wipes. If I do take out Stonecloaker, he may find his way in.
Yeah, it's just one of the few ways of generating virtual CA in mono-W so it is what it is. I've made it a point of building a R deck(Tahngarth in sig) with lots of pseudo draw effects to stimulate CA too. it's hard, but it's awesome when you get to see the effects of your hard work.
I'll see if I can snag his list when he posts it on the League site that I run for the Pauper Krew clan on MODO and post it here for you.
Cool, thanks
I had a feeling Kataki would not work the way you'd like here. My brother just found an interesting card from Legions today(I know, rare right? haha) Glowrider. It's like a second Thalia effect, and he snagged a Daru Warchief for more buffing and cost reducing(he is quite heavy on soldiers anyway currently).
I loved Glowrider back in the day. It was part of the inspiration for this deck. In Odyssey/Onslaught Standard I tried to make use of it in R/W Astral Slide to slow opponents down, but it was never quite good enough. Although it has the same effect as Thalia, one extra mana for the same body without first strike feels lackluster at best. Since I don't really depend on Thalia to win, I don't feel like Glowrider is as good as I want my three-drops to be.
Daru Warchief would be okay in soldier tribal I suppose. Not that many soldiers in my build.
We have a Mimeoplasm deck in the environment that plays a lot of dredge, so we've found it required. though I am of the opinion you can never have enough 'Yard hate in a deck so he should probably put it back in. but his deck, not mine, what ca I do?
I don't think I've played against a The Mimeoplasm deck in 1v1, to be honest. If I saw more graveyard-based decks, I would run more hate.
I still think Dust Elemental should be in there. Great way to recover from a sweeper.
It certainly is. Problem is having the mana open and Dust Elemental in my hand when the sweeper happens! I think that's only happened once in probably close to a hundred games with variants on this deck. This deck really has more good cards that could plausibly go in than there is space, especially in the three- and four-mana creature slots.
Any thoughts on whether I should put the four white-relevant fetches back in? I took them out when Angel of Jubilation made her way in because she makes them completely useless, but now I realize that it's unlikely I'd be playing many lands once she's in play anyway. Kind of a marginal gain v. marginal loss issue. I have at least one of each from other decks past, so their ridiculous price isn't so important.
Any thoughts on whether I should put the four white-relevant fetches back in? I took them out when Angel of Jubilation made her way in because she makes them completely useless, but now I realize that it's unlikely I'd be playing many lands once she's in play anyway. Kind of a marginal gain v. marginal loss issue. I have at least one of each from other decks past, so their ridiculous price isn't so important.
I'm hesitant to want to put them in because of the Angel, but you don't have a way to tutour it reliably so you can just make sure your fetches are cracked before it comes down. It's much more powerful to use on an opponent as they don't see the Angel coming(it actually totally wrecked my Jor Kadeen as I was relying on Crucible + Fetch to make my land drops.
Ultimately, I think you should be able to control it enough to where you can use it them profitably. And if you draw one post-angel, well, you already have four lands out at least since you played it, so you probably didn't need it anyway, right?
As for Glowrider, I can understand that it isn't as impressive as Thalia, but we like redundancy, right? If one tax is good, then two is better. And it's on a creature so it's not hampered by the first Thalia effect like Thorn of Amethyst would be. Can you imagine, their Wrath of God now costs 4WW? Or that Doom Blade is now 3B. Cultivate? Forget about it, ramp spells don't stand a chance at 4G to make a difference at this time here. Sucks that it's a cleric and not a soldier, but hey that's okay in my book.
Also unsure about Kjeldoran Outpost. I'm really leery about losing a land, even though the Outpost is great at generating an army.
I don't think Glowrider replaces Silverblade. That guy is pretty awesome. Probably some other three drop I'm sure. Meadowgrain rocks with that first strike and all these anthem effects, while True Believer is rather niche(only really good at stopping Duress-effects and Tormod's Crypt(which we don't care about, ha).
KoTWO is definitely playable. You should be using him.
Outpost has been so clutch. It seems awkward on paper But it's really not that bad. I mean, when you play Outpost, you can sacrifice a tapped basic, and it comes in untapped so you don't really lose mana economy. and after that turn it pays dividends later as it makes guys. Just another way of making virtual CA.
Daru Encampment I know feels random, but there is actually a lot of soldiers, and as you said, bare minimum it pumps Thalia to a 3/2 and is cheap to activate. While we haven't tested Daru Warchief yet, we have high hopes for it as well. Holy Strength to all soldiers, and making them cost less mana, seems good.
edit: What is your thoughts on Odric, Master Tactician? If anything is a swarm deck, it's this one. seems good to force alpha strikes. And, it's a soldier which is relevant here. 3/4 with first strike as well, though for four mana I'm not quite sure. Maybe I'm just looking at him for that George Clooney-esque artwork. >_>
I don't think Glowrider replaces Silverblade. That guy is pretty awesome. Probably some other three drop I'm sure. Meadowgrain rocks with that first strike and all these anthem effects, while True Believer is rather niche(only really good at stopping Duress-effects and Tormod's Crypt(which we don't care about, ha).
I'm going through my list of three-drops, and they're all so incredibly solid.
Attended Knight - 3 mana for 3 power, double the bonus from anthems
Aven Mindcensor - Incredibly frustrating for fetchlands and combo decks
Blade Splicer - 3 mana for 4 power, double the bonus from anthems
Flickerwisp - 3 mana for 3 flying power, reuses an ETB effect or
Glowrider - Second Thalia
Mentor of the Meek - excellent card advantage
Mirran Crusader - 3 mana for 4 power w/ protection
Mirror Entity - amazing pump
Pianna, Nomad Captain - strong pump
Soltari Champion - strong pump
Thraben Doomsayer - string of weenies
Maybe I should take out Eight-and-a-Half-Tails? Two drops aren't quite so important because I have Thalia, and he's a lot of mana for not a whole lot of impact.
KoTWO is definitely playable. You should be using him.
I plan to fit it in somewhere.
Outpost has been so clutch. It seems awkward on paper But it's really not that bad. I mean, when you play Outpost, you can sacrifice a tapped basic, and it comes in untapped so you don't really lose mana economy. and after that turn it pays dividends later as it makes guys. Just another way of making virtual CA.
I'll test it out. Didn't occur to me that I could sacrifice a tapped land.
edit: What is your thoughts on Odric, Master Tactician? If anything is a swarm deck, it's this one. seems good to force alpha strikes. And, it's a soldier which is relevant here. 3/4 with first strike as well, though for four mana I'm not quite sure. Maybe I'm just looking at him for that George Clooney-esque artwork. >_>
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The biggest problem with Odric is that he doesn't do much unless I already have four creatures out (including him), at which point Odric is a little bit of win-more in a lot of circumstances. I just don't see any four drop I would prefer him over. Love the art, though.
I'm going through my list of three-drops, and they're all so incredibly solid.
Attended Knight - 3 mana for 3 power, double the bonus from anthems
Aven Mindcensor - Incredibly frustrating for fetchlands and combo decks
Blade Splicer - 3 mana for 4 power, double the bonus from anthems
Flickerwisp - 3 mana for 3 flying power, reuses an ETB effect or
Glowrider - Second Thalia
Mentor of the Meek - excellent card advantage
Mirran Crusader - 3 mana for 4 power w/ protection
Mirror Entity - amazing pump
Pianna, Nomad Captain - strong pump
Soltari Champion - strong pump
Thraben Doomsayer - string of weenies
Maybe I should take out Eight-and-a-Half-Tails? Two drops aren't quite so important because I have Thalia, and he's a lot of mana for not a whole lot of impact.
Hmm...how often does Mirror Entity actually do anything for you? my brother doesn't have him in his, and usually has a way of using his mana all the time. he just kind of strikes me as just kind of...being there. Eight-and-a-half is clutch at times, or at least makes people try and play around it(which Thalia already puts them off mana a turn). Flickerwisp may be suspect, I'd look into it(since you have Resto-Angel which is usually better).
The biggest problem with Odric is that he doesn't do much unless I already have four creatures out (including him), at which point Odric is a little bit of win-more in a lot of circumstances. I just don't see any four drop I would prefer him over. Love the art, though.
Yeah, I think you're right as well. But dat art! >_>
Hmm...how often does Mirror Entity actually do anything for you? my brother doesn't have him in his, and usually has a way of using his mana all the time. he just kind of strikes me as just kind of...being there. Eight-and-a-half is clutch at times, or at least makes people try and play around it(which Thalia already puts them off mana a turn). Flickerwisp may be suspect, I'd look into it(since you have Resto-Angel which is usually better).
I think Mirror Entity works really well. She's mostly useful when I've started running low on cards (so I have a little bit of mana lying around). But an investment of three or more mana gives my creatures a substantial boost for an alpha strike, and then that gets stacked with anthems. She can also work okay by herself, though obviously that's not ideal. I think she gives me more of a boost than Silverblade Paladin, which is a dead card if I have no other creatures and is often forced to pair with a utility creature.
Flickerwisp is IMO almost as good as Restoration Angel. Sure, no flash and only one toughness, but it's one less mana and still three flying power. It can also do more than Restoration Angel. It can mess with my opponent's board for a turn, clearing out a blocker or other problem card. It can also effectively reduce its cost to two mana by removing a tapped land (or Thalia if I have mana open to then play a non-creature that turn). I think it's probably earned its spot.
Eight-and-a-half-Tails is sometimes good, but I don't feel like he's been as good as some of the other cards under consideration. He's both costly from a mana perspective to get much use out of and a little bit passive (aggressive for getting around blockers, but that's limited in scope). He's as good as Mother of Runes; he can't realistically be used twice in a turn in this deck, and his ability isn't likely to be usable the turn he comes into play.
Accorder Paladin. That's the two drop you should cut before cutting Eight-and-a-half. I know it's a half anthem, but three power and one toughness just sucks. I'd rather play Thalia t2 every single time than this guy.
Accorder Paladin. That's the two drop you should cut before cutting Eight-and-a-half. I know it's a half anthem, but three power and one toughness just sucks. I'd rather play Thalia t2 every single time than this guy.
I reckon Bodyguard might be better than Brave, at least Ranger tutours for him. My brother and I cut Brave a while back too(it was in the first, strict $20 list) but I told him how it was mostly random with no tutours or real draw engine made it unreliable.
He still needs a Mom though, which is like $2.5-$3 online. :/
And yes, Paladin will usually get more damage in than Accorder. Even if it pairs with a utility guy, he's still huge thanks to the anthems.
I reckon Bodyguard might be better than Brave, at least Ranger tutours for him. My brother and I cut Brave a while back too(it was in the first, strict $20 list) but I told him how it was mostly random with no tutours or real draw engine made it unreliable.
He still needs a Mom though, which is like $2.5-$3 online. :/
And yes, Paladin will usually get more damage in than Accorder. Even if it pairs with a utility guy, he's still huge thanks to the anthems.
After some thought, I think I may get rid of Armageddon and Ravages of War (which I never managed to get my hands on anyway). They're great in certain circumstances, but I think overall there are better choices. They're also useless against decks like Kaalia and Zur that run a lot of artifact mana.
Replacements are pretty thin on the ground. There's always Accorder Paladin to put back in. Ethersworn Canonist and Mangara of Corondor offer a little more hate for certain decks. Winter Orb is a similar effect to the mass LD spells and cheaper, but it has the same problem against artifact mana.
After some thought, I think I may get rid of Armageddon and Ravages of War (which I never managed to get my hands on anyway). They're great in certain circumstances, but I think overall there are better choices. They're also useless against decks like Kaalia and Zur that run a lot of artifact mana.
Replacements are pretty thin on the ground. There's always Accorder Paladin to put back in. Ethersworn Canonist and Mangara of Corondor offer a little more hate for certain decks. Winter Orb is a similar effect to the mass LD spells and cheaper, but it has the same problem against artifact mana.
Thoughts?
I think cutting your 'Geddons is a mistake. They are the single easiest way to end a game. Dude, Dude, Thalia, 'Geddon, GG?
I could never understand cutting them in this archetype.
Hey there buddy, just figured I'd drop back by with my brother's updated list. He's got a couple of cards he is going to slot in sometime in the next few days, in Torpor Orb and Windbrisk Heights. Next time we actually place high enough to get a good share of credit, we're going to add Humility, since opponents guys as 1/1 vs our guys as 1/1s that are really 2/2s and 3/3s(thanks to Crusade) is pretty strong.
Oh yeah, we did some testing on both Wing Shards and Intrepid Hero(since he's a soldier and all) and ultimately, Intrepid did not make the cut. His ability is nice and all, but it's just not good enough. Wing Shards is just a clunky spell, and only gets worse with Thalia making it cost 2WW. Anyway there's the few changes that we've been testing so below is the current list;
Oh, what is your opinion of Masako the Humourless and Loxodon Gatekeeper? I keep telling him Gatekeeper isn't aggressive enough(four mana, two power) but he always seems to try and bring him up. So maybe a second opinion will do him some good? Also, Divine Deflection as a WFireball? Just another card he keeps trying to force haha. I guess Ring of Thune he is interested in as well. I have no idea why though. Anyway, your thoughts on these cards?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Edit: On second thought, SOLAS is back in, and the much more passive Aura of Silence is out for now.
-1 Revoke Existence
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Leonin Skyhunter
+1 Goldmeadow Harrier (functionally identical to Gideon's Lawkeeper, but I was using Gideon's Lawkeeper because he's a Human and thus interacts with Champion of the Parish and Cavern of Souls set to Humans)
Also dropped Journey to Nowhere for Oust.
One thing I did recommend to him which isn't in here is Inheritance. I know it looks bad, but as one of like only two draw effects in mono-W it has to be worth consideration. It can also give a reason to not over-extend into a board wipe by leaving 3 up to draw when they kill a guy. It also helps that it is only W so it doesn't have a very high overhead to gain value.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I've eyed Inheritance a few times (mostly because it's one of the only draw cards in white) but balked at the 3 activation cost. It has potential, though, and I may find room for it.
In return, I'm testing out three cards, Kataki, War's Wage, Inheritance and Thorn of Amethyst. Kataki I am very unsure about. He causes problems for some other decks, but I actually have a lot of artifacts (more than I would like, but I can't think what to cut) and sometimes only hurts me. If he doesn't work out, I'll try out True Believer, though other than Oath decks he doesn't do much useful hate. Thorn of Amethyst I think may not be aggressive enough a play to be warranted, but we'll see how it works out. Inheritance may similarly be too slow/mana intensive, but it will probably help with the late game a bit.
Do you have any feedback from testing, 3drinks?
He did end up cutting Inheritance as keeping 3 up is harsh he said and counter-productive to his game plan. Similarly, I think you adding Kataki, War's Wage is a mistake as well because I'm not sure you can pay for all your equipments so it will un-neededly slow you down. Likewise with Thorn of Amethyst.
He's actually playing a bit more 'Yard hate than you are, he cut Stonecloaker as very seldom did he actually have the three to use it, and when he did, it wasn't that impactul. So he is running Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus instead. As this is a budget deck on a $20 limit, he is also running Cloudgoat Ranger and he just recently added Knight-Captain of Eos as "guys that bring little buddies" of which I feel he should cut one or the other(keep Cloudgoat, cut Knight-Captain) but he seems pretty adamant on both. And he's been successful, so it's hard to argue with him.
He also cut Selfless Cathar citing that "it doesn't do enough and a one shot anthem is not good enough".
You mentioned you cut Elspeth, Knight-Errant as it didn't impact the board enough. I'm a bit surprised by that as it makes a steady stream of dudes and what not, but my brother is playing Ajani Goldmane for the multi-anthem + vigilance so you might try old Ajani for a bit? He still wants to add an Elspeth as well, but he needs to save some tournament winnings first, ha.
edit: He's happy he was able to get a Hero of Bladehold for the deck as well. That will give the deck a lot of reach. Also, he added a card I haven't seen in your deck in Thraben Doomsayer. Three for a 2/2 that has ":symtap:: Make a 1/1 guy." I mean, you get the anthem effect much since you need to be on Fateful Hour, but it certainly seems like a reasonable card for this archetype. Just another form of virtual card advantage.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Great! I have a winning record (10-5) with the most recent iteration of this deck as well, though have not used it in any actual tournament or quasi-tournament environments.
Kataki, War's Wage was more trouble than he was worth the one game I drew him. Yeah, gone. Inheritance I haven't drawn yet since putting it into the deck, so I'll keep it around for now, but I think it will probably end being a dud. Also dropping Thorn of Amethyst, but not sure for what yet...
Interesting. I've never found graveyard strategies to be very common. As such, Stonecloaker isn't actually all that useful to me for its graveyard disruption, either, but it's a solid three-drop that just happens to disrupt some graveyard strategies. I've considered taking it out entirely for some more generic and cheaper beater. Does he see a lot of graveyard-based decks? It just doesn't feel like an issue to me, especially not enough of one to run otherwise dead cards like Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt (well, I suppose the Relic cantrips, but still).
I can see playing them on a budget, but if he's having trouble getting Stonecloaker out, surely five mana is too much? Attended Knight is also a good and less mana-intense budget option, though I don't see much use for it my current build (maybe if I put in Restoration Angel, though I'd still rather target Blade Splicer or Stoneforge Mystic or Jötun Grunt).
Fair enough, but I think the need for one-drops outweighs Selfless Cathar being a somewhat meh choice. It's also an instant-speed anthem, so it can save you from certain board sweeps or opposing creature swarms. I've run out of good one-drops to consider to replace it, and I think I need as many as I have to ensure a quick opening.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a little slow for this deck. She is great for recovering from a Wrath, but she can only create one 1/1 a turn, and she does that for four/five mana, which comes quite late. (I actually think her +3/+3 and flying ability is more useful, since it helps gets Swords through, and I did once win with general damage [!!!] through Elspeth's pump.) No guarantees that she won't find her way back in, though.
I don't like Ajani Goldmane. He depends on there being plenty of other creatures on the battlefield; at least Elspeth can create her own army. I would also play Mikaeus, the Lunarch first.
Hero of Bladehold is undoubtedly one of the best cards in this deck.
Thraben Doomsayer I've considered before, think he was in here for a while. He comes out earlier than Elspeth but doesn't have her flexibility (no pump, just generates 1/1s) and gets swept away by Wraths and other creature wipes. If I do take out Stonecloaker, he may find his way in.
Edit: Okay, actually did decide to put in Thraben Doomsayer as well as Attended Knight and Restoration Angel (figured there were enough targets for her now, more than before anyway). In exchange, I dropped Stonecloaker, Thorn of Amethyst and Dust Elemental (a decision I feel like I might regret, but he's probably better in theory than in practice).
I'll see if I can snag his list when he posts it on the League site that I run for the Pauper Krew clan on MODO and post it here for you.
I had a feeling Kataki would not work the way you'd like here. My brother just found an interesting card from Legions today(I know, rare right? haha) Glowrider. It's like a second Thalia effect, and he snagged a Daru Warchief for more buffing and cost reducing(he is quite heavy on soldiers anyway currently).
We have a Mimeoplasm deck in the environment that plays a lot of dredge, so we've found it required. though I am of the opinion you can never have enough 'Yard hate in a deck so he should probably put it back in. but his deck, not mine, what ca I do?
I must have misspoke. I meant that while he can get to five alright some games(that's his target mana because Thalia'd 'Geddon is five) that he doesn't find a decent opportunity to use Stoney with three up. he already has Attended Knight though.
He also can't get a Resto-Angel atm for her insane(rightfully so) popularity but his next "big money card" to get online is Land Tax.
Fair enough. I think he needs a few more one drops too, but you know some people, they'd rather play the big splashy cards than the small utility guys that actually are the work horses, haha.
He's just now adding Mikaeus which I've never been terribly fond of, but again, his deck, his choices ha. I agree Elspeth is usually better than Goldmane, but Elspeth is like $12, where Goldmane was like in dollar territory online.
Yeah, it's just one of the few ways of generating virtual CA in mono-W so it is what it is. I've made it a point of building a R deck(Tahngarth in sig) with lots of pseudo draw effects to stimulate CA too. it's hard, but it's awesome when you get to see the effects of your hard work.
I still think Dust Elemental should be in there. Great way to recover from a sweeper.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Cool, thanks
I loved Glowrider back in the day. It was part of the inspiration for this deck. In Odyssey/Onslaught Standard I tried to make use of it in R/W Astral Slide to slow opponents down, but it was never quite good enough. Although it has the same effect as Thalia, one extra mana for the same body without first strike feels lackluster at best. Since I don't really depend on Thalia to win, I don't feel like Glowrider is as good as I want my three-drops to be.
Daru Warchief would be okay in soldier tribal I suppose. Not that many soldiers in my build.
I don't think I've played against a The Mimeoplasm deck in 1v1, to be honest. If I saw more graveyard-based decks, I would run more hate.
It certainly is. Problem is having the mana open and Dust Elemental in my hand when the sweeper happens! I think that's only happened once in probably close to a hundred games with variants on this deck. This deck really has more good cards that could plausibly go in than there is space, especially in the three- and four-mana creature slots.
Any thoughts on whether I should put the four white-relevant fetches back in? I took them out when Angel of Jubilation made her way in because she makes them completely useless, but now I realize that it's unlikely I'd be playing many lands once she's in play anyway. Kind of a marginal gain v. marginal loss issue. I have at least one of each from other decks past, so their ridiculous price isn't so important.
I'm hesitant to want to put them in because of the Angel, but you don't have a way to tutour it reliably so you can just make sure your fetches are cracked before it comes down. It's much more powerful to use on an opponent as they don't see the Angel coming(it actually totally wrecked my Jor Kadeen as I was relying on Crucible + Fetch to make my land drops.
Ultimately, I think you should be able to control it enough to where you can use it them profitably. And if you draw one post-angel, well, you already have four lands out at least since you played it, so you probably didn't need it anyway, right?
As for Glowrider, I can understand that it isn't as impressive as Thalia, but we like redundancy, right? If one tax is good, then two is better. And it's on a creature so it's not hampered by the first Thalia effect like Thorn of Amethyst would be. Can you imagine, their Wrath of God now costs 4WW? Or that Doom Blade is now 3B. Cultivate? Forget about it, ramp spells don't stand a chance at 4G to make a difference at this time here. Sucks that it's a cleric and not a soldier, but hey that's okay in my book.
edit: Found his .dek file
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Creatures
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Attended Knight
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Celestial Crusader
1 Champion of the Parish
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Daru Warchief
1 Dust Elemental
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Elite Inquisitor
1 Emancipation Angel
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Gideon's Lawkeeper
1 Glowrider
1 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Knight of Meadowgrain
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Knight-Captain of Eos
1 Kongming, "Sleeping Dragon"
1 Kor Aeronaut
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Lantern Kami
1 Leonin Arbiter
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Leonin Skyhunter
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pianna, Nomad Captain
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Serra Avenger
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Soltari Champion
1 Soltari Foot Soldier
1 Soltari Priest
1 Spectral Rider
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Student of Warfare
1 Suntail Hawk
1 Thraben Doomsayer
1 War Falcon
1 Wispmare
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Armageddon
1 Bonesplitter
1 Crusade
1 Glorious Anthem
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Mask of Memory
1 Oust
1 Path to Exile
1 Ravages of War
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Revoke Existence
1 Skullclamp
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trusty Machete
1 Wing Shards
Lands
27 Plains
1 Daru Encampment
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Forbidding Watchtower
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Tectonic Edge
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]Sorry it's not organized, I just grabbed the .dek file and threw it up here. It's ABC order at least, ha.[/FONT]
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Also unsure about Kjeldoran Outpost. I'm really leery about losing a land, even though the Outpost is great at generating an army.
I don't think Glowrider replaces Silverblade. That guy is pretty awesome. Probably some other three drop I'm sure. Meadowgrain rocks with that first strike and all these anthem effects, while True Believer is rather niche(only really good at stopping Duress-effects and Tormod's Crypt(which we don't care about, ha).
KoTWO is definitely playable. You should be using him.
Outpost has been so clutch. It seems awkward on paper But it's really not that bad. I mean, when you play Outpost, you can sacrifice a tapped basic, and it comes in untapped so you don't really lose mana economy. and after that turn it pays dividends later as it makes guys. Just another way of making virtual CA.
Daru Encampment I know feels random, but there is actually a lot of soldiers, and as you said, bare minimum it pumps Thalia to a 3/2 and is cheap to activate. While we haven't tested Daru Warchief yet, we have high hopes for it as well. Holy Strength to all soldiers, and making them cost less mana, seems good.
edit: What is your thoughts on Odric, Master Tactician? If anything is a swarm deck, it's this one. seems good to force alpha strikes. And, it's a soldier which is relevant here. 3/4 with first strike as well, though for four mana I'm not quite sure. Maybe I'm just looking at him for that George Clooney-esque artwork. >_>
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I'm going through my list of three-drops, and they're all so incredibly solid.
Attended Knight - 3 mana for 3 power, double the bonus from anthems
Aven Mindcensor - Incredibly frustrating for fetchlands and combo decks
Blade Splicer - 3 mana for 4 power, double the bonus from anthems
Flickerwisp - 3 mana for 3 flying power, reuses an ETB effect or
Glowrider - Second Thalia
Mentor of the Meek - excellent card advantage
Mirran Crusader - 3 mana for 4 power w/ protection
Mirror Entity - amazing pump
Pianna, Nomad Captain - strong pump
Soltari Champion - strong pump
Thraben Doomsayer - string of weenies
Maybe I should take out Eight-and-a-Half-Tails? Two drops aren't quite so important because I have Thalia, and he's a lot of mana for not a whole lot of impact.
I plan to fit it in somewhere.
I'll test it out. Didn't occur to me that I could sacrifice a tapped land.
The biggest problem with Odric is that he doesn't do much unless I already have four creatures out (including him), at which point Odric is a little bit of win-more in a lot of circumstances. I just don't see any four drop I would prefer him over. Love the art, though.
Hmm...how often does Mirror Entity actually do anything for you? my brother doesn't have him in his, and usually has a way of using his mana all the time. he just kind of strikes me as just kind of...being there. Eight-and-a-half is clutch at times, or at least makes people try and play around it(which Thalia already puts them off mana a turn). Flickerwisp may be suspect, I'd look into it(since you have Resto-Angel which is usually better).
Yeah, I think you're right as well. But dat art! >_>
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I think Mirror Entity works really well. She's mostly useful when I've started running low on cards (so I have a little bit of mana lying around). But an investment of three or more mana gives my creatures a substantial boost for an alpha strike, and then that gets stacked with anthems. She can also work okay by herself, though obviously that's not ideal. I think she gives me more of a boost than Silverblade Paladin, which is a dead card if I have no other creatures and is often forced to pair with a utility creature.
Flickerwisp is IMO almost as good as Restoration Angel. Sure, no flash and only one toughness, but it's one less mana and still three flying power. It can also do more than Restoration Angel. It can mess with my opponent's board for a turn, clearing out a blocker or other problem card. It can also effectively reduce its cost to two mana by removing a tapped land (or Thalia if I have mana open to then play a non-creature that turn). I think it's probably earned its spot.
Eight-and-a-half-Tails is sometimes good, but I don't feel like he's been as good as some of the other cards under consideration. He's both costly from a mana perspective to get much use out of and a little bit passive (aggressive for getting around blockers, but that's limited in scope). He's as good as Mother of Runes; he can't realistically be used twice in a turn in this deck, and his ability isn't likely to be usable the turn he comes into play.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Ah, this makes sense for getting Silverblade Paladin back in there. Thanks.
Still looking for room for Knight of the White Orchid. Also cut Inheritance formally to get Kjeldoran Outpost in today. I'm beginning to turn a skeptical eye towards some of my cheap utility spells, in particular Brave the Elements. After your comment on Selfless Cathar I've been thinking on other one-drops that might be a little bit on the weak side and may cut Benevolent Bodyguard.
He still needs a Mom though, which is like $2.5-$3 online. :/
And yes, Paladin will usually get more damage in than Accorder. Even if it pairs with a utility guy, he's still huge thanks to the anthems.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Decided to drop Brave the Elements for Knight of the White Orchid. We'll see how that goes.
Replacements are pretty thin on the ground. There's always Accorder Paladin to put back in. Ethersworn Canonist and Mangara of Corondor offer a little more hate for certain decks. Winter Orb is a similar effect to the mass LD spells and cheaper, but it has the same problem against artifact mana.
Thoughts?
I think cutting your 'Geddons is a mistake. They are the single easiest way to end a game. Dude, Dude, Thalia, 'Geddon, GG?
I could never understand cutting them in this archetype.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Oh yeah, we did some testing on both Wing Shards and Intrepid Hero(since he's a soldier and all) and ultimately, Intrepid did not make the cut. His ability is nice and all, but it's just not good enough. Wing Shards is just a clunky spell, and only gets worse with Thalia making it cost 2WW. Anyway there's the few changes that we've been testing so below is the current list;
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Creatures(51)
1 Champion of the Parish
1 Gideon's Lawkeeper
1 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Lantern Kami
1 Soltari Foot Soldier
1 Student of Warfare
1 Suntail Hawk
1 War Falcon
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Elite Inquisitor
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Knight of Meadowgrain
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Kor Aeronaut
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Leonin Arbiter
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Leonin Skyhunter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Serra Avenger
1 Soltari Priest
1 Spectral Rider
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Blade Splicer
1 Emancipation Angel
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Glowrider
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mirror Entity
1 Pianna, Nomad Captain
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Soltari Champion
1 Thraben Doomsayer
1 Wispmare
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Celestial Crusader
1 Daru Warchief
1 Dust Elemental
1 Emeria Angel
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Kongming, "Sleeping Dragon"
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Cloudgoat Ranger (Torpor Orb)
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Bonesplitter
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Skullclamp
1 Mask of Memory
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Group Buff(3)
1 Crusade
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Ajani Goldmane
Removal(4)
1 Oust
1 Path to Exile
1 Revoke Existence
1 Swords to Plowshares
"I-Win"(2)
1 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
Lands(34)
1 Daru Encampment
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Forbidding Watchtower
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Tectonic Edge
27 Plains (Windbrisk Heights)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.