No Enlightened Tutor? I know it's technically considered card disadvantage, but still... it can get you that early AEther Vial (which is obvioulsy only good early game).
Some other thoughts:
Won't Winter Orb work well with Thalia, or is it not worth running it in an aggro-oriented deck?
This may seem strange, but I don't see why you're running Cavern of Souls. It's not like your deck needs a specific creature out to win you the game- it just needs lots of quick creatures (which can usually get around counterspells anyway). Won't Wasteland or Rishadan Port (which I think is awesome with Thalia) be better choices?
I guess my comments are leaning more towards the mana-denial strategy. Have you found the heavily aggro-oriented version of Thalia to outshine mana-denial, or do you just prefer your take more?
No Enlightened Tutor? I know it's technically considered card disadvantage, but still... it can get you that early AEther Vial (which is obvioulsy only good early game).
Aether Vial is nice, but I tend to run out of cards rather than mana/ability to play threats. I don't think running card disadvantage just for Aether Vial is worth it.
Some other thoughts:
Won't Winter Orb work well with Thalia, or is it not worth running it in an aggro-oriented deck?
I've tried running a tax-y variant that had cards like Winter Orb and Thorn of Amethyst. It wasn't as tuned as this version, so that might have been part of the problem, but it felt torn between two focuses and not that good. That said, a really tuned version could be very good. It's just not this deck.
This may seem strange, but I don't see why you're running Cavern of Souls. It's not like your deck needs a specific creature out to win you the game- it just needs lots of quick creatures (which can usually get around counterspells anyway).
Cavern of Souls, naming Humans, play Thalia, watch blue control player weep.
Obviously doesn't do anything against any deck not running counters, but, since Thalia by herself completely kills decks that rely primarily on countermagic to control the board if she can get into play, it's worth it.
Won't Wasteland or Rishadan Port (which I think is awesome with Thalia) be better choices?
Rishadan is kind of mana-intensive, and the deck is tight enough on mana that they're a little bit of a stretch. But I've thought about slotting in some more nonbasics over a few Plains. I think I'll put them in.
I guess my comments are leaning more towards the mana-denial strategy. Have you found the heavily aggro-oriented version of Thalia to outshine mana-denial, or do you just prefer your take more?
I think Thalia works best as an augment to White Weenie rather than as an overall strategy of mana denial. White Weenie isn't quite fast enough to compete in a 30 life format ordinarily, but Thalia slows down the opponent enough to allow you to compete (except Edric and Animar, which are incredibly frustrating to play against). On the flip side, her taxing ability isn't strong enough to build a tax deck around, and in mono-white you miss some of the important cards for a tax deck, like Stasis. If you want tax, play Grand Arbiter Augustin IV (which could theoretically run an aggressive build like this one with Thalia in it, although everyone who plays GAAIV goes for control).
Think of it kind of like the EDH version of Thalia-Parfait in Vintage (which admittedly is mostly about hating on cheap artifact mana, but close enough), or Death and Taxes in Legacy.
IDK, I'd like to see how a really tuned tax version of the deck works. I could be convinced otherwise.
Haven't tested it, but looks bad on its face. 5 mana, and it doesn't even get Thalia into three-turn kill range from general damage or something. Maybe worth testing in the future.
No worries, snow lands are "something different" and a lot of the time it looks cool, or unique, to do something the norm doesn't usually do, and I know I've fallen victim to it on several occasions(like playing a few snow lands because I don't want to use ugly white-bordered cards on Magic Online).
I'm hesitant to add these kinds of cards to a WW deck. W is not known for it's ability to filter dead cards much, and these seem incredibly weak in 98% of situations. And with your general already on the board, they seem incredibly worthless. Do you want to pay 1 for a Petal or Mox? Because I sure don't.
I would say if you had something like U or even G you'd at least have some way to dig past these speed bumps, but in mono-W I can't imagine it. Now, if there was a W Spirit Guide...I think you'd have an all-star.
I built almost the same list, it shares a lot of the same things, 1 thing I learned, i've been stuck on 2 lands many games but every time I had an early vial I didn't mull for more because vial generates obscene card advantage, I would run the tutor for it. I also don't know about angelic destiny I played it once, and my creature got exiled so I lost it, rather depressing but it turns weenies into facebeaters, which is ALWAYS good, and if it does get to recur it seems strong.
Maybe the tutor is worth it, then. Thoughts on what it ought to replace? I'm thinking Glorious Anthem but am open to suggestions.
I would also very much like to see your build if you're willing to post it, or at least a description of the differences/different choices if it's substantially similar.
I built almost the same list, it shares a lot of the same things, 1 thing I learned, i've been stuck on 2 lands many games but every time I had an early vial I didn't mull for more because vial generates obscene card advantage, I would run the tutor for it. I also don't know about angelic destiny I played it once, and my creature got exiled so I lost it, rather depressing but it turns weenies into facebeaters, which is ALWAYS good, and if it does get to recur it seems strong.
Not that it matters much, but I just wanted to say that Vial doesn't generate card advantage(it actually loses it) but it turns the card disadvantage into board advantage(quite similar to the way Kaalia of the Vast operates).
A minor point, I'm sure, but just wanted to mention that.
As for TC cutting something for Enlightened Tutor, I think I'd agree with Glorious Anthem. It feels like it's the most vanilla of all your other Lord effects.
Really only minor differences, I'm running a few more griefer effects and stax cards, Angelic Destiny actually won me a game today vs Sisay, she had the g/w liege out and I had miran crusader, she armadillo cloaked it, I put angelic destiny down and started swinging for 12 every turn, it ended shortly thereafter. I also like that Chroma anthem, and am also thinking of removing the Glorious anthem.
I run a few more artifacts as well, bonesplitter axe being one of the equips you don't run, and I think light and shadow for my sword, for more recursion, I replaced the other 2 swords with winter orb, and thorn of amethyst
Made a few changes today, adding in some manlands and Restoration Angel, which has tested well (although it's a little different from Dust Elemental, which it replaced, and doesn't save me from Wrath effects).
Thoughts on Attended Knight from M13? 3 mana for a 2/2 first strike and a 1/1 isn't that great, but it is two bodies and thus double the boosts from Anthem effects.
I think Crusader of Odric isn't that exciting. If I have four or more creatures out (the only time it's worthwhile), I've probably already won or am otherwise not helped by a generic beater. Same goes for Ajani's Sunstriker, which, as a strictly worse version of Knight of Meadowgrain, kind of sucks (not sure what they were thinking, not like Knight of Meadowgrain was too strong to reprint). I already took out Knight of Meadowgrain for Spectral Rider (Intimidate >>> Lifelink and First Strike for this deck), so Ajani's Sunstriker certainly isn't finding its way in.
However, the new Sublime Archangel is tempting. Four/five power with evasion for four is pretty damn good. Problem is that Exalted runs directly counter to the rest of the deck, although it does make utility stuff like Mother of Runes much better. Something to think about. Might replace Emeria Angel with her, since Emeria Angel is rarely going to create many tokens and Sublime Archangel at the very least has one more point of power.
I think Emeria Angel should stay tbh. It's exactly what you want in WW. Actually, it seems incredibly good with the new exalted mythic, even. play land, make critter, more +1/+1 for something to bash for(especially in conjunction with Mirran Crusader).
12-hour edit: Also, if you're considering Attended Knight, I just realized you should have Blade Splicer(recurrable by Sun Titan too. One is 2W for a 2/2 first strike and a 1/1, the other is 2W for a 3/3 first strike and a 1/1.
I think you'd do better with Dust Elemental than Stonehewer Giant as well. Five cmc and you have to untap with him before he pays dividends versus four cmc to protect your best guys and never get blown out by a sweeper. Again, just my own opinion, but hopefully it gives you something to consider.
Right, forgot about Blade Splicer. I originally was opposed to including Phyrexian cards on principle, but I already introduced Phyrexian Revoker, so I can hardly resist Blade Splicer as well.
Problem right now is that the top end of the deck is very tight, with not much room to fit all of the good cards I would like to have. You're probably right that Stonehewer Giant doesn't do enough. I love the card, but it is very mana-intensive.
Proposed changes:
- Stonehewer Giant
- Restoration Angel (way disappointing, taking her back out, realized she does not actually do much here)
+ Sublime Archangel
+ Dust Elemental
Right, forgot about Blade Splicer. I originally was opposed to including Phyrexian cards on principle, but I already introduced Phyrexian Revoker, so I can hardly resist Blade Splicer as well.
Problem right now is that the top end of the deck is very tight, with not much room to fit all of the good cards I would like to have. You're probably right that Stonehewer Giant doesn't do enough. I love the card, but it is very mana-intensive.
Proposed changes:
- Stonehewer Giant
- Restoration Angel (way disappointing, taking her back out, realized she does not actually do much here)
+ Sublime Archangel
+ Dust Elemental
I support your proposed changes. I actually think the only real home for Restoration Angel is seriously in a Bant-Blink shell. Anywhere else and it under performs in most cases.
Now for the other section. I don't believe I would ever cut a Jitte in an aggro deck. Or even a Sword really. SoFaF, much like SoFaI before it, is still +1 CA when it connects. It's just -1 opp CA instead of +1 your CA. But ultimately it is still a +1.
Stonecloaker- I don't think he should go either. Some gravehate is just a necessity in this format, and while W isn't particularly known for it, you still need to have some answer to that Animate Dead.
This leaves it between Kongming and Pianna. Kongming is a anthem that still gives it if he doesn't swing. Pianna does this only while swinging. Furthermore, this effect is done better by the all-but-impossible to block Soltari Champion. So I think I would run Blade Splicer in place of Pianna, Nomad Captain in this light.
So, War Falcon. Obviously going in, since Thalia will almost always come in on turn two to give the Falcon a Soldier. Would cut Suntail Hawk or Lantern Kami, but I think those are actually among my best creatures once I start getting Anthem effects out there.
I recently discovered that Limited Resources is not banned on the French banlist. Might be worth considering for this deck, although getting to five lands is fairly rare anyway.
Could be good. Though it may just be one of those cards that just kind of...helps you win a little more. Test it though, I'm interested to know how it works. I can't play it in Kaalia as that's not a French metagame, but I am still curious.
Restoration Angel has been really great in geist and I don't really see why it wasn't here. What did you not like about it. 3/4 flier for 4 is already fine, saving a creature from removal is great, as is retriggering etb abilities like bladesplicer and flash makes it more resistant to opposing counterspells and can lead to good combat tricks. I'd say it's much better than dust elemental as it does nothing unless you're already ahead by having 3 creatures on the board. Especially against U tempo dust elemental - vapor snag it back to your hand puts you back so much in tempo.
Restoration Angel has been really great in geist and I don't really see why it wasn't here. What did you not like about it. 3/4 flier for 4 is already fine, saving a creature from removal is great, as is retriggering etb abilities like bladesplicer and flash makes it more resistant to opposing counterspells and can lead to good combat tricks. I'd say it's much better than dust elemental as it does nothing unless you're already ahead by having 3 creatures on the board. Especially against U tempo dust elemental - vapor snag it back to your hand puts you back so much in tempo.
Dust elemental is great beats, but it's true power lies in it's ability to blank opposing wraths. Even in french, they're paying what? 5 for ***? Or wydwen pays 6 for consume the meek? Seems fine to scoop up thalia and another guy to replay post sweeper.
Or against non-tempo or non-U decks you just flash it in on their end step and bam u have a four cmc 6/6 with evasion. Hell you could even loop it with a stonecloaker if needed.
Restoration Angel has been really great in geist and I don't really see why it wasn't here. What did you not like about it. 3/4 flier for 4 is already fine, saving a creature from removal is great, as is retriggering etb abilities like bladesplicer and flash makes it more resistant to opposing counterspells and can lead to good combat tricks. I'd say it's much better than dust elemental as it does nothing unless you're already ahead by having 3 creatures on the board. Especially against U tempo dust elemental - vapor snag it back to your hand puts you back so much in tempo.
Saving a creature from targeted removal is decent but not extraordinary when there are so many creatures in the deck (and none of them are really essential, even Thalia). Saving two or three creatures from a sweeper spell is great. That's the essential difference between Restoration Angel and Dust Elemental. There aren't that many useful ETB effects in this deck, so Restoration Angel isn't as abusable as she is in some other decks. I don't think I've ever used Dust Elemental as a creature, so the tempo issues are pretty irrelevant.
3/4 flier for 4 isn't fine in this deck. Linvala, Keeper of Silence is pretty borderline, and her effect is stronger than Restoration Angel's since it shuts down a lot of key threats.
Not that she may not have a place at all. But I'm trying to be parsimonious with my four-drops (recently cut Sun Titan entirely because he was too much mana), and right now the other four-drops in the deck are better.
Thinking about slimming down on the high-end non-creature spells, though, so Restoration Angel might make it in anyway. In particular, Return to Dust is starting to feel unjustified.
Not that she may not have a place at all. But I'm trying to be parsimonious with my four-drops (recently cut Sun Titan entirely because he was too much mana), and right now the other four-drops in the deck are better.
Thinking about slimming down on the high-end non-creature spells, though, so Restoration Angel might make it in anyway. In particular, Return to Dust is starting to feel unjustified.
I had a feeling Titan was not what you wanted to be doing here...does this mean you're gonna cut Stonehewer as well?
I'm a bit surprised at cutting Return to Dust, as that card is pretty incredible. I guess if you replaced with Dust to Dust(three cmc, but only artifacts) or Revoke Existance(slow sorcery, but two cmc is decent) it'd be okay.
I agree. Disenchant seems much better. I would also recommend Abolish, but you're only running 23 plains...
Edit: I forgot about Revoke Existance, which 3drinks mentioned. Even though it is a sorcery, the fact that you can play it the turn after you play Thalia is awesome. Worth running imo.
I had a feeling Titan was not what you wanted to be doing here...does this mean you're gonna cut Stonehewer as well?
I'm a bit surprised at cutting Return to Dust, as that card is pretty incredible. I guess if you replaced with Dust to Dust(three cmc, but only artifacts) or Revoke Existance(slow sorcery, but two cmc is decent) it'd be okay.
I cut him quietly recently, too. Revoke Existence is the best choice to replace Return to Dust, I think. Sending things to the graveyard is not the permanent effect it used to be.
Edit: One more small change, took out Emeria Angel (just too late-game, needs four mana and then for me to play a fifth land to be useful) in favor of Leonin Arbiter (excellent hatebear that I left out early on for some probably wrong-headed reason).
Thoughts on Memory Jar? When I get to break a Memory Jar on turn 6 (or 7 if Thalia is out), it's amazing, and I nearly always can come back from a serious deficit. However, I can't help but feel that the 5/6 mana Memory Jar costs is too restrictive, and it's sat in my hand while I was stuck at 4 or 5 mana many times.
If I dropped Memory Jar, I might actually slot in another land to marginally increase my mana consistency... Or maybe try out Restoration Angel again.
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Some other thoughts:
Won't Winter Orb work well with Thalia, or is it not worth running it in an aggro-oriented deck?
This may seem strange, but I don't see why you're running Cavern of Souls. It's not like your deck needs a specific creature out to win you the game- it just needs lots of quick creatures (which can usually get around counterspells anyway). Won't Wasteland or Rishadan Port (which I think is awesome with Thalia) be better choices?
I guess my comments are leaning more towards the mana-denial strategy. Have you found the heavily aggro-oriented version of Thalia to outshine mana-denial, or do you just prefer your take more?
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
Aether Vial is nice, but I tend to run out of cards rather than mana/ability to play threats. I don't think running card disadvantage just for Aether Vial is worth it.
I've tried running a tax-y variant that had cards like Winter Orb and Thorn of Amethyst. It wasn't as tuned as this version, so that might have been part of the problem, but it felt torn between two focuses and not that good. That said, a really tuned version could be very good. It's just not this deck.
Cavern of Souls, naming Humans, play Thalia, watch blue control player weep.
Obviously doesn't do anything against any deck not running counters, but, since Thalia by herself completely kills decks that rely primarily on countermagic to control the board if she can get into play, it's worth it.
Rishadan is kind of mana-intensive, and the deck is tight enough on mana that they're a little bit of a stretch. But I've thought about slotting in some more nonbasics over a few Plains. I think I'll put them in.
I think Thalia works best as an augment to White Weenie rather than as an overall strategy of mana denial. White Weenie isn't quite fast enough to compete in a 30 life format ordinarily, but Thalia slows down the opponent enough to allow you to compete (except Edric and Animar, which are incredibly frustrating to play against). On the flip side, her taxing ability isn't strong enough to build a tax deck around, and in mono-white you miss some of the important cards for a tax deck, like Stasis. If you want tax, play Grand Arbiter Augustin IV (which could theoretically run an aggressive build like this one with Thalia in it, although everyone who plays GAAIV goes for control).
Think of it kind of like the EDH version of Thalia-Parfait in Vintage (which admittedly is mostly about hating on cheap artifact mana, but close enough), or Death and Taxes in Legacy.
IDK, I'd like to see how a really tuned tax version of the deck works. I could be convinced otherwise.
Haven't tested it, but looks bad on its face. 5 mana, and it doesn't even get Thalia into three-turn kill range from general damage or something. Maybe worth testing in the future.
Basically my thoughts, too. Holding off for now.
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
I would also very much like to see your build if you're willing to post it, or at least a description of the differences/different choices if it's substantially similar.
Not that it matters much, but I just wanted to say that Vial doesn't generate card advantage(it actually loses it) but it turns the card disadvantage into board advantage(quite similar to the way Kaalia of the Vast operates).
A minor point, I'm sure, but just wanted to mention that.
As for TC cutting something for Enlightened Tutor, I think I'd agree with Glorious Anthem. It feels like it's the most vanilla of all your other Lord effects.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I run a few more artifacts as well, bonesplitter axe being one of the equips you don't run, and I think light and shadow for my sword, for more recursion, I replaced the other 2 swords with winter orb, and thorn of amethyst
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Thoughts on Attended Knight from M13? 3 mana for a 2/2 first strike and a 1/1 isn't that great, but it is two bodies and thus double the boosts from Anthem effects.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
However, the new Sublime Archangel is tempting. Four/five power with evasion for four is pretty damn good. Problem is that Exalted runs directly counter to the rest of the deck, although it does make utility stuff like Mother of Runes much better. Something to think about. Might replace Emeria Angel with her, since Emeria Angel is rarely going to create many tokens and Sublime Archangel at the very least has one more point of power.
12-hour edit: Also, if you're considering Attended Knight, I just realized you should have Blade Splicer(recurrable by Sun Titan too. One is 2W for a 2/2 first strike and a 1/1, the other is 2W for a 3/3 first strike and a 1/1.
I think you'd do better with Dust Elemental than Stonehewer Giant as well. Five cmc and you have to untap with him before he pays dividends versus four cmc to protect your best guys and never get blown out by a sweeper. Again, just my own opinion, but hopefully it gives you something to consider.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Problem right now is that the top end of the deck is very tight, with not much room to fit all of the good cards I would like to have. You're probably right that Stonehewer Giant doesn't do enough. I love the card, but it is very mana-intensive.
Proposed changes:
- Stonehewer Giant
- Restoration Angel (way disappointing, taking her back out, realized she does not actually do much here)
+ Sublime Archangel
+ Dust Elemental
Would like to fit in Blade Splicer, but I can't think what to cut. Stonecloaker? Pianna, Nomad Captain? Kongming? One of the Swords (probably Sword of Feast and Famine, as the recur from Sword of Light and Shadow is huge, and Sword of Fire and Ice is just bonkers for an aggro deck--though Feast and Famine would be amazing in a build with Winter Orb etc.)? The Jitte?
I support your proposed changes. I actually think the only real home for Restoration Angel is seriously in a Bant-Blink shell. Anywhere else and it under performs in most cases.
Now for the other section. I don't believe I would ever cut a Jitte in an aggro deck. Or even a Sword really. SoFaF, much like SoFaI before it, is still +1 CA when it connects. It's just -1 opp CA instead of +1 your CA. But ultimately it is still a +1.
Stonecloaker- I don't think he should go either. Some gravehate is just a necessity in this format, and while W isn't particularly known for it, you still need to have some answer to that Animate Dead.
This leaves it between Kongming and Pianna. Kongming is a anthem that still gives it if he doesn't swing. Pianna does this only while swinging. Furthermore, this effect is done better by the all-but-impossible to block Soltari Champion. So I think I would run Blade Splicer in place of Pianna, Nomad Captain in this light.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
Dust elemental is great beats, but it's true power lies in it's ability to blank opposing wraths. Even in french, they're paying what? 5 for ***? Or wydwen pays 6 for consume the meek? Seems fine to scoop up thalia and another guy to replay post sweeper.
Or against non-tempo or non-U decks you just flash it in on their end step and bam u have a four cmc 6/6 with evasion. Hell you could even loop it with a stonecloaker if needed.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Saving a creature from targeted removal is decent but not extraordinary when there are so many creatures in the deck (and none of them are really essential, even Thalia). Saving two or three creatures from a sweeper spell is great. That's the essential difference between Restoration Angel and Dust Elemental. There aren't that many useful ETB effects in this deck, so Restoration Angel isn't as abusable as she is in some other decks. I don't think I've ever used Dust Elemental as a creature, so the tempo issues are pretty irrelevant.
3/4 flier for 4 isn't fine in this deck. Linvala, Keeper of Silence is pretty borderline, and her effect is stronger than Restoration Angel's since it shuts down a lot of key threats.
Not that she may not have a place at all. But I'm trying to be parsimonious with my four-drops (recently cut Sun Titan entirely because he was too much mana), and right now the other four-drops in the deck are better.
Thinking about slimming down on the high-end non-creature spells, though, so Restoration Angel might make it in anyway. In particular, Return to Dust is starting to feel unjustified.
I had a feeling Titan was not what you wanted to be doing here...does this mean you're gonna cut Stonehewer as well?
I'm a bit surprised at cutting Return to Dust, as that card is pretty incredible. I guess if you replaced with Dust to Dust(three cmc, but only artifacts) or Revoke Existance(slow sorcery, but two cmc is decent) it'd be okay.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I agree. Disenchant seems much better. I would also recommend Abolish, but you're only running 23 plains...
Edit: I forgot about Revoke Existance, which 3drinks mentioned. Even though it is a sorcery, the fact that you can play it the turn after you play Thalia is awesome. Worth running imo.
I cut him quietly recently, too. Revoke Existence is the best choice to replace Return to Dust, I think. Sending things to the graveyard is not the permanent effect it used to be.
Edit: One more small change, took out Emeria Angel (just too late-game, needs four mana and then for me to play a fifth land to be useful) in favor of Leonin Arbiter (excellent hatebear that I left out early on for some probably wrong-headed reason).
If I dropped Memory Jar, I might actually slot in another land to marginally increase my mana consistency... Or maybe try out Restoration Angel again.