Anafenza would be strong enough had it triggered on tokens too. Otherwise it's just a 2/2 for WW that'll make something bigger if it sticks to next turn. Generally, I'm inclined to believe that wants to be played on t2, but it isn't as good as Thalia or even Precinct Captain on t2.
Those other two spells are bad (Revoke is better under Thalia because I'm not paying four mana for a Disenchant effect). The X spell...just no. That is for a ramp deck, or a control deck as a finish. What I do like however;
I know I'm playing Fabled Hero and this guy's second ability is stronger than Heroic. Fabled Hero, for me, is a "vanilla" double striker. So this is an easy choice.
This isn't a bad use, though the competition at the three slot is really high. It's three power for three mana but it's good with our Skyfisher effects. Playable, although it probably does't make the cut in the end.
This is playable if you're already playing Suspension Field and want a second copy of this effect. Journey to Nowhere should be played before either though, of course.
I missed this, but a WParalyze effect is playable.
And lastly, this could have been playable if it was a 2/2. As a result, it's not (but I wanted to mention it here to help illustrate what we are, and aren't, looking for in Thalia playables).
Have we talked about this guy yet? I feel like it's only a powerhouse in big Anafenza decks because counters are more plentiful. But mass evasion potential merits discussion, yes?
That's the rub, isn't it? Any wrath protection cards are too often dead to be played in the deck itself. In my opinion, the best solution is to play carefully and not overextend yourself. Thalia does make it harder to play wrath effects--many decks that can relatively consistently reach 4 mana struggle to hit 5--so the risk is a bit smaller than elsewhere. And, of course, the pump protects to some degree against mass burn and mass -X/-X spells.
That said, Thalia was at her strongest when French was a highly grind-y, control-heavy format where most decks ran few creatures (so few that targeted removal was by far more common than mass removal). And decks with significant amounts of mass removal are often heavy with noncreature spells generally, which means you should be able to get your opponent close enough to zero life before the wrath that just one or two more creatures can seal the deal.
The deck has lost it's lustre because, while Animar was already an unwinnable matchup, Marath also makes your days a nightmare. Though it still has a good control match up.
That's the rub, isn't it? Any wrath protection cards are too often dead to be played in the deck itself. In my opinion, the best solution is to play carefully and not overextend yourself. Thalia does make it harder to play wrath effects--many decks that can relatively consistently reach 4 mana struggle to hit 5--so the risk is a bit smaller than elsewhere. And, of course, the pump protects to some degree against mass burn and mass -X/-X spells.
That said, Thalia was at her strongest when French was a highly grind-y, control-heavy format where most decks ran few creatures (so few that targeted removal was by far more common than mass removal). And decks with significant amounts of mass removal are often heavy with noncreature spells generally, which means you should be able to get your opponent close enough to zero life before the wrath that just one or two more creatures can seal the deal.
Thank you for your answer, so I guess we just need to play around it. I was thinking about protection spells but, besides Brave the Elements which would only works against the red mass removal ones, the others would be too costly with Thalia on the board.
The deck has lost it's lustre because, while Animar was already an unwinnable matchup, Marath also makes your days a nightmare. Though it still has a good control match up.
Well, here in my city, meta is pretty much Tasigur and Animar, so I guess we have a good matchup (is Tasigur a good one, right?) and a pretty bad one, right?
Do you guys think a Thrun voltron deck would perform any better on the current format?
The deck has lost it's lustre because, while Animar was already an unwinnable matchup, Marath also makes your days a nightmare. Though it still has a good control match up.
Well, here in my city, meta is pretty much Tasigur and Animar, so I guess we have a good matchup (is Tasigur a good one, right?) and a pretty bad one, right?
Do you guys think a Thrun voltron deck would perform any better on the current format?
I'm not sure how the deck plays against Tasigur as I wasn't playing when that was released (haven't been on MODO in ages because my laptop cannot handle the v4 client) but I imagine having access to a cheap 4/5 wall that creates CA is hard for any aggro deck to beat. That said we play a lot of flyers and shadow so evading it is plausible. But you have two "real" removals for him (or if you take my list, you get a third in Oppressive Rays) which is not a good chance of being able to disrupt it. You also lack 'Yard hate, and that will surely only compound the issue.
Agreed with the above. With Winter Orb legal again, it might be worth reviving a few more of the stax-y parts of the deck, such as Tangle Wire, Glowrider and Thorn of Amethyst that had been removed because the deck felt pulled in two directions. That would marginally improve the match-up with more aggro-ish decks, but Marath and Animar continue to be basically unwinnable. (The deck became a lot worse when Marath and Derevi were printed.)
White seems to be getting alot of love in origins and a fair amount of it could see play here: Kytheon, Hero of Akros - An amazing 1 drop that really has no reason not to make the deck. Relic Seeker - Best early but still a creature based tutor for the deck. Again not seeing a reason this isn't an easy auto include. Vryn Wingmare - Glowrider #2 for tax versions of the deck. Making that Thalia into Glowrider opening that much more common.
White seems to be getting alot of love in origins and a fair amount of it could see play here: Kytheon, Hero of Akros - An amazing 1 drop that really has no reason not to make the deck. Relic Seeker - Best early but still a creature based tutor for the deck. Again not seeing a reason this isn't an easy auto include. Vryn Wingmare - Glowrider #2 for tax versions of the deck. Making that Thalia into Glowrider opening that much more common.
Kytheon & Vryn seem quite playable, but Relic is fairly meh - that's an awful lot of hoops for what is a somewhat better Glory Seeker. And as a two drop, it is directly competing with Thalia (and Thalia is your go-to two drop so...)
If Relic put it on the battlefield, we might have something. But as it stands, I reckon I'd play Steelshaper's Gift first.
Made some updates to the front page, including adding back some of the more stax-ish cards in connection with the unbanning of Winter Orb and also incorporating Magic Origins (just Kytheon and the auto-include Vryn Wingmare). Relic Seeker also has potential, but I'm not completely sold yet.
Bump to "update" for BFZ block -- except there's nothing to add. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Sandstone Bridge maybe come close, but I don't think they quite cut it. After testing Gideon and Elspeth, I think I like Elspeth better, but it's a close call.
Oh well. Innistrad seems like a more promising setting for useful additions.
Bump to "update" for BFZ block -- except there's nothing to add. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Sandstone Bridge maybe come close, but I don't think they quite cut it. After testing Gideon and Elspeth, I think I like Elspeth better, but it's a close call.
Oh well. Innistrad seems like a more promising setting for useful additions.
I'd rather have Elspeth ten times out of ten, than Newideon. I would even rather keep Ajani, Caller of the Pride over Gideon.
This deck is such a blast to play, it's a shame it doesn't stack up very well against the meta. Right now with the deck I'm having great success with the full compliment of vanilla 2 power creatures:
Not only do they provide very fast aggro, a necessary thing a world full of 4cmc boardwipes, and also feed Skullclamp wonderfully in the late game when a 1-drop 2/1 is less relevant. They also maximize the value of the few Anthem effects I run, because a board full of 2/1s benefits more from "dudes get +1/+1" more than two or three bears.
It's not that it doesn't stack up well against the meta, moreso than it's a meta deck in and of itself. In a field of Wydwens, Narsets, and GAAIVs? Go ham with Thalia. In a place with Tasigurs, Yisans, and combo? You might as well not bother.
Topplegeist seems incredibly good as an all-upside Suntail Hawk.
Yup. Topplegeist is an auto-include. The odds of getting Delirium in this deck are pretty low, but that doesn't matter given that it's already got pure upside on Suntail Hawk and clones. Going to wait until the full set is spoiled before updating the list, though.
Thoughts on SOI potentials. Open to other suggestions also:
Bygone Bishop - Nice alternative to Mentor of the Meek, solving his problem of needing to pay the cost immediately at the price of an extra mana (but also gets one more toughness and flying). Also not weakened by pump effects, and the vast majority of our creatures are CMC 3 or less. "Cast" vs "ETB" isn't so important in a deck that has no intention of abusing Mentor of the Meek with blink effects and doesn't do graveyard recursion. The one disadvantage is anti-synergy with Æther Vial. I think he'll find his way in. Declaration in Stone - Dramatically better than Path to Exile for this deck, if only it were an Instant. Still up for strong consideration. Hanweir Militia Captain - Too much of a win-more in this deck, I think. If we have four creatures in play, we're either overextended into a Wrath (which this does not protect against) or about to win. Not Forgotten - In a graveyard-heavy meta, maybe, but not for me. Strength in Arms - Very strong card, but not in this deck. Thalia's Lieutenant - Obvious yes. Turn three right after Thalia is a great play (maybe before or after a Mardu Woe-Reaper or Soldier of the Pantheon the same turn) Thraben Inspector - I think Investigate could help this deck's card advantage issues considerably. I wish this were a 2/1 instead of a 1/2, though. Considering it. Topplegeist - Obvious yes.
I failt to see how is declaration in stone "dramaticaly better" than PtE when its more expensive and sorcery speed. I agree that giving them clue is better than basic land but I dont think it is "Dramaticaly better" its on the same level at best IMO
Because in this deck giving them the extra land is in a way, erasing the benefit of our commander. I'm fine with you durdling around to spend 2 to draw while I punch you in the face - I'm not so fine with helping you colour fix and set up your wrath turn.
I failt to see how is declaration in stone "dramaticaly better" than PtE when its more expensive and sorcery speed. I agree that giving them clue is better than basic land but I dont think it is "Dramaticaly better" its on the same level at best IMO
Because in this deck giving them the extra land is in a way, erasing the benefit of our commander. I'm fine with you durdling around to spend 2 to draw while I punch you in the face - I'm not so fine with helping you colour fix and set up your wrath turn.
This, exactly. PtE has a huge downside for a deck the centerpiece of which is taxing the opponent. I'd much rather let them draw a card. Sorcery speed is not ideal, though. I'm not running PtE currently in any case.
I failt to see how is declaration in stone "dramaticaly better" than PtE when its more expensive and sorcery speed. I agree that giving them clue is better than basic land but I dont think it is "Dramaticaly better" its on the same level at best IMO
Because in this deck giving them the extra land is in a way, erasing the benefit of our commander. I'm fine with you durdling around to spend 2 to draw while I punch you in the face - I'm not so fine with helping you colour fix and set up your wrath turn.
This, exactly. PtE has a huge downside for a deck the centerpiece of which is taxing the opponent. I'd much rather let them draw a card. Sorcery speed is not ideal, though. I'm not running PtE currently in any case.
I think I am, out of necessity. But I am also still playing Renounce the Guilds too.
However, I'm also thinking about switching to Kytheon as commander so I can make use of cards such as Chimeric Idol (yes, I realize I'm dating myself pretty hard lol).
I failt to see how is declaration in stone "dramaticaly better" than PtE when its more expensive and sorcery speed. I agree that giving them clue is better than basic land but I dont think it is "Dramaticaly better" its on the same level at best IMO
Because in this deck giving them the extra land is in a way, erasing the benefit of our commander. I'm fine with you durdling around to spend 2 to draw while I punch you in the face - I'm not so fine with helping you colour fix and set up your wrath turn.
This, exactly. PtE has a huge downside for a deck the centerpiece of which is taxing the opponent. I'd much rather let them draw a card. Sorcery speed is not ideal, though. I'm not running PtE currently in any case.
I think I am, out of necessity. But I am also still playing Renounce the Guilds too.
However, I'm also thinking about switching to Kytheon as commander so I can make use of cards such as Chimeric Idol (yes, I realize I'm dating myself pretty hard lol).
I'm also playing Renounce the Guilds and don't plan to stop any time soon. "Your opponent sacrifices their commander" is a great effect. Other multicolored permanents are relatively rare, and most decks and multicolored. Plus, it's literally our only way to deal with Animar, Soul of Elements (though thankfully that deck is rare these days).
And, why Chimeric Idol? It's not so great these days, even if was once a solid card. These days I'd only play it in Pox-type decks.
I failt to see how is declaration in stone "dramaticaly better" than PtE when its more expensive and sorcery speed. I agree that giving them clue is better than basic land but I dont think it is "Dramaticaly better" its on the same level at best IMO
Because in this deck giving them the extra land is in a way, erasing the benefit of our commander. I'm fine with you durdling around to spend 2 to draw while I punch you in the face - I'm not so fine with helping you colour fix and set up your wrath turn.
This, exactly. PtE has a huge downside for a deck the centerpiece of which is taxing the opponent. I'd much rather let them draw a card. Sorcery speed is not ideal, though. I'm not running PtE currently in any case.
I think I am, out of necessity. But I am also still playing Renounce the Guilds too.
However, I'm also thinking about switching to Kytheon as commander so I can make use of cards such as Chimeric Idol (yes, I realize I'm dating myself pretty hard lol).
I'm also playing Renounce the Guilds and don't plan to stop any time soon. "Your opponent sacrifices their commander" is a great effect. Other multicolored permanents are relatively rare, and most decks and multicolored. Plus, it's literally our only way to deal with Animar, Soul of Elements (though thankfully that deck is rare these days).
And, why Chimeric Idol? It's not so great these days, even if was once a solid card. These days I'd only play it in Pox-type decks.
I like it b/c it's a dude they can't wrath (though I won't play it in a Thalia deck specifically, b/c I won't pay 4 for this). I mean, we've got Jitte too (conditionally as it is).
Did you ever add in Eldrazi Displacer yet? We thrive on grinding virtual CA, and this gives us [an albeit mana heavy] way to generate value. Plus a 3/3 for 3 is strong enough with this effect IMO.
Fate Forgotten seems marginally better then revoke exsistence
New Anafenza seems solid enough to run, over what im not sure but gets out of range of burn and -x-x effects.
Seems interesting.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Those other two spells are bad (Revoke is better under Thalia because I'm not paying four mana for a Disenchant effect). The X spell...just no. That is for a ramp deck, or a control deck as a finish. What I do like however;
I know I'm playing Fabled Hero and this guy's second ability is stronger than Heroic. Fabled Hero, for me, is a "vanilla" double striker. So this is an easy choice.
This isn't a bad use, though the competition at the three slot is really high. It's three power for three mana but it's good with our Skyfisher effects. Playable, although it probably does't make the cut in the end.
This is playable if you're already playing Suspension Field and want a second copy of this effect. Journey to Nowhere should be played before either though, of course.
I missed this, but a W Paralyze effect is playable.
And lastly, this could have been playable if it was a 2/2. As a result, it's not (but I wanted to mention it here to help illustrate what we are, and aren't, looking for in Thalia playables).
Have we talked about this guy yet? I feel like it's only a powerhouse in big Anafenza decks because counters are more plentiful. But mass evasion potential merits discussion, yes?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
What do you guys or girls do against wrath effects?
That said, Thalia was at her strongest when French was a highly grind-y, control-heavy format where most decks ran few creatures (so few that targeted removal was by far more common than mass removal). And decks with significant amounts of mass removal are often heavy with noncreature spells generally, which means you should be able to get your opponent close enough to zero life before the wrath that just one or two more creatures can seal the deal.
The deck has lost it's lustre because, while Animar was already an unwinnable matchup, Marath also makes your days a nightmare. Though it still has a good control match up.
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Creature (46)
1x Angel of Jubilation
1x Arashin Foremost
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Aven Skirmisher
1x Banisher Priest
1x Blade Splicer
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Celestial Crusader
1x Champion of the Parish
1x Emancipation Angel
1x Emeria Angel
1x Fabled Hero
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Flickerwisp
1x Gideon's Lawkeeper
1x Glowrider
1x Goldmeadow Harrier
1x Grand Abolisher
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
1x Hero of Bladehold
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Knight of the White Orchid
1x Kor Skyfisher
1x Lantern Kami
1x Leonin Arbiter
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Mardu Woe-Reaper
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Mirror Entity
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Precinct Captain
1x Ranger of Eos
1x Restoration Angel
1x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1x Serra Avenger
1x Silverblade Paladin
1x Soldier of the Pantheon
1x Soltari Champion
1x Soltari Foot Soldier
1x Soltari Monk
1x Soltari Priest
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Suntail Hawk
1x War Priest of Thune
1x Arid Mesa
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Daru Encampment
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Flooded Strand
1x Karoo
1x Kjeldoran Outpost
1x Marsh Flats
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Mutavault
10x Plains
9x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Wasteland
1x Windbrisk Heights
1x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (4)
1x Crusade
1x Honor of the Pure
1x Land Tax
1x Oppressive Rays
Planeswalker (2)
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Artifact (6)
1x Konda's Banner
1x Mask of Memory
1x Skullclamp
1x Tangle Wire
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Winter Orb
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Path to Exile
1x Renounce the Guilds
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Tithe
Sorcery (2)
1x Armageddon
1x Ravages of War
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Thank you for your answer, so I guess we just need to play around it. I was thinking about protection spells but, besides Brave the Elements which would only works against the red mass removal ones, the others would be too costly with Thalia on the board.
Well, here in my city, meta is pretty much Tasigur and Animar, so I guess we have a good matchup (is Tasigur a good one, right?) and a pretty bad one, right?
Do you guys think a Thrun voltron deck would perform any better on the current format?
I'm not sure how the deck plays against Tasigur as I wasn't playing when that was released (haven't been on MODO in ages because my laptop cannot handle the v4 client) but I imagine having access to a cheap 4/5 wall that creates CA is hard for any aggro deck to beat. That said we play a lot of flyers and shadow so evading it is plausible. But you have two "real" removals for him (or if you take my list, you get a third in Oppressive Rays) which is not a good chance of being able to disrupt it. You also lack 'Yard hate, and that will surely only compound the issue.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Kytheon, Hero of Akros - An amazing 1 drop that really has no reason not to make the deck.
Relic Seeker - Best early but still a creature based tutor for the deck. Again not seeing a reason this isn't an easy auto include.
Vryn Wingmare - Glowrider #2 for tax versions of the deck. Making that Thalia into Glowrider opening that much more common.
Kytheon & Vryn seem quite playable, but Relic is fairly meh - that's an awful lot of hoops for what is a somewhat better Glory Seeker. And as a two drop, it is directly competing with Thalia (and Thalia is your go-to two drop so...)
If Relic put it on the battlefield, we might have something. But as it stands, I reckon I'd play Steelshaper's Gift first.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Oh well. Innistrad seems like a more promising setting for useful additions.
I'd rather have Elspeth ten times out of ten, than Newideon. I would even rather keep Ajani, Caller of the Pride over Gideon.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
It's not that it doesn't stack up well against the meta, moreso than it's a meta deck in and of itself. In a field of Wydwens, Narsets, and GAAIVs? Go ham with Thalia. In a place with Tasigurs, Yisans, and combo? You might as well not bother.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I hope you're right.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Yup. Topplegeist is an auto-include. The odds of getting Delirium in this deck are pretty low, but that doesn't matter given that it's already got pure upside on Suntail Hawk and clones. Going to wait until the full set is spoiled before updating the list, though.
sorry i'm a caveman I don't know how to paste images. Is this legal for a mono-white commander deck if the tokens she produce are black and white?
The card is legal. Although I don't think it's fantastic and it competes with Thalia on t2. Rather Geist honoured monk tbh...
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Bygone Bishop - Nice alternative to Mentor of the Meek, solving his problem of needing to pay the cost immediately at the price of an extra mana (but also gets one more toughness and flying). Also not weakened by pump effects, and the vast majority of our creatures are CMC 3 or less. "Cast" vs "ETB" isn't so important in a deck that has no intention of abusing Mentor of the Meek with blink effects and doesn't do graveyard recursion. The one disadvantage is anti-synergy with Æther Vial. I think he'll find his way in.
Declaration in Stone - Dramatically better than Path to Exile for this deck, if only it were an Instant. Still up for strong consideration.
Hanweir Militia Captain - Too much of a win-more in this deck, I think. If we have four creatures in play, we're either overextended into a Wrath (which this does not protect against) or about to win.
Not Forgotten - In a graveyard-heavy meta, maybe, but not for me.
Strength in Arms - Very strong card, but not in this deck.
Thalia's Lieutenant - Obvious yes. Turn three right after Thalia is a great play (maybe before or after a Mardu Woe-Reaper or Soldier of the Pantheon the same turn)
Thraben Inspector - I think Investigate could help this deck's card advantage issues considerably. I wish this were a 2/1 instead of a 1/2, though. Considering it.
Topplegeist - Obvious yes.
Because in this deck giving them the extra land is in a way, erasing the benefit of our commander. I'm fine with you durdling around to spend 2 to draw while I punch you in the face - I'm not so fine with helping you colour fix and set up your wrath turn.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
This, exactly. PtE has a huge downside for a deck the centerpiece of which is taxing the opponent. I'd much rather let them draw a card. Sorcery speed is not ideal, though. I'm not running PtE currently in any case.
I think I am, out of necessity. But I am also still playing Renounce the Guilds too.
However, I'm also thinking about switching to Kytheon as commander so I can make use of cards such as Chimeric Idol (yes, I realize I'm dating myself pretty hard lol).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I'm also playing Renounce the Guilds and don't plan to stop any time soon. "Your opponent sacrifices their commander" is a great effect. Other multicolored permanents are relatively rare, and most decks and multicolored. Plus, it's literally our only way to deal with Animar, Soul of Elements (though thankfully that deck is rare these days).
And, why Chimeric Idol? It's not so great these days, even if was once a solid card. These days I'd only play it in Pox-type decks.
I like it b/c it's a dude they can't wrath (though I won't play it in a Thalia deck specifically, b/c I won't pay 4 for this). I mean, we've got Jitte too (conditionally as it is).
Did you ever add in Eldrazi Displacer yet? We thrive on grinding virtual CA, and this gives us [an albeit mana heavy] way to generate value. Plus a 3/3 for 3 is strong enough with this effect IMO.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.