He stops all burn, makes it so you can always attack with everything, with no fear of creature loss, and allows you to block with ease.
Any particular reason as to why you don't run him?
It is not necessary at all. Burn isn't so much the threat as outright destruction is. And we're not supposed to be blocking (if we're blocking, we're already on the backfoot and losing). We're supposed to be on the offense in order to keep pressuring them. So Rune-tail is win-more and sometimes just plain not good.
Return to the Ranks good or no? Seems like it's tailor made for exactly this deck.
Consider, then, that when do you cast this? Surely you get more use out of our creatures by dealing damage than by bringing some randoms back. So we don't want to Convoke this. That means we have to cast it. Alright, fair enough. But we can't cast it with Thalia on the battlefield (indeed, do you want to pay four mana to bring back a two drop? I don't). So we can cast it at four cmc then, when Thalia isn't on the battlefield, to get back a pair of two drops on an opposing end step. This is a good play, but this is not the most common scenario (indeed, I would rather have Thalia in play all the time, than wait to bring back a two drop).
The verdict, then, is it's good when we've lost creatures and don't have our commander in play. A terrible place for us to be in the first place (and a losing position by all rights). If we're losing...what two 2-drops can we bring back that makes us "not lose" then? None. There's no single combination of two drops, in that multiplyer, that can cause us to go from "losing" to "winning". So this card is better positioned in a Trostani, Selesnya's Voice (for example) that can make more guys from thin air and reliably keep it's CMC down (and additionally, also has a better choice of one and two drops to bring back).
Hello everyone; i'm kinda new to commander construction and i'm constantly searching new ways; anyway when i put my hands on a thalia i saw my new general ! Then a little searching brought me here for some great readings
I'm building an "almost-the-same" deck than those above, but lacking some of the rare/expensives cards, i'm searching some fillers; searching a filler for a 2 drop i just saw a kinda dull Cavalry Pegasus; and then i though HOLY CRAP and then i though meh, but why not ? And trying it haven't proved me wrong; sure it's just a 1/1 flyer for 2, poor body, but the passive is just so strong with all those humans we got... turn 3/4 you can just make damage rain on their face; combined with cards such as Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker or Norn's Annex ( loved this one at first sight, even if it can be kinda expensive with thalia ) it works just wonders...
Also, even if expensive, Strata Scythe have proved me to be very, very usefull ( and hey, shuffling is cool ), specially when playing Stonehewer Giant
( i play 3 5-drops; the giant, World Queller and Geist-Honored Monk )
Toughts ? Am i just another noob ? Or can this work somehow ?
I'm also trying Return to the Ranks, and even if not that awesome, it has had its uses bringing back Serra Avenger, Leonin Arbiter, or Gideon's Lawkeeper...
And what are your thoughts on Spirit Bonds ? It had helped me just crush the opponent with massive spirit damage, even if it delayed thalia for turn 3 ( played bonds turn 2 ), or it can just provide tons of skullclamp food.
Hi. A lot of the cards you mentioned are too much mana or just plain not good on their own (World Queller? So we're paying five mana for a 4/4 that eats a permanent if we untap with it? Unacceptable use of resources). StratScyth is also not good, especially consider there are many more powerful equips we could play in it's place, and for less mana too. Compare it to Konda's Banner which is less to cast, and always guarantees to give us +2/+2 across the board, and is castable under Thalia where Scythe is not. Scythe also wants us to have three plains in order to be better than Banner (and even then, it's debatable since Banner lords our team while Scythe pumps one guy) the inherent problem with Scythe is that we don't need more than five lands (often times we don't get past four) and of those five, it's likely only two of them are Plains (flagstones, eiganjo, mutavault, cavern, etc).
Five drops are not where you want to be in this deck. You want to hit four and then 'Geddon. That's all. And even then, you want your guys to be aggressive, not durdle-bots. Porcelain Legionnaire looks impressive, while Cavalry Pegasus does not. (Although Porcelain is less good if you're playing Kataki, War's Wage like I am). This is also why Return to the Ranks isn't good as an instant (and even worse now that I see it's a sorcery).
Mother of Runes isn't aggressive enough. This isn't like, say, Animar or, say, Kaalia, where we are trying to protect one dude. (In fact, spending a removal on one of our guys is often a bad play since our dudes are so similar and not worth the value of the removal on average). So Mom's slot here is a wasted resource, a dude that's committed to the board that doesn't go into the red zone. Eight-and-a-half on the other hand can still attack, block like a champ, and blank even Maze of Ith.
Spirit Bonds is a legitimately interesting card. On the surface It looks like I want to cast it post-Thalia which makes it a three cmc Time Walk, but the way it provides wrath resilience while simultaneously speeding my clock (with evasion, even!) makes me want it to be good. Of course it could just be Detention Sphere bait. When I get the chance I will pick one up and, assuming my laptop cooperates with MODO, I will give it a good and thorough testing. (I still need to get a Brimaz, King of Oreskos as well...and Soldier of the Pantheon which I seem to have forgotten.)
But the thing is, i miss loads of cards for my deck to be as good as yours I'm playing almost only IRL.
Well the thing is, i use scythe, for example, because i don't posess either any sword nor Konda's Banner ( i hopefully kept my jitte from those old times when i was a kid who just wanted pretty cards... ooo shiny shiny ); knowing that, i find scythe a lot more attractive than a lot of other equipments ( even, let's say, Godsend); if i had konda's or sword i would play one of those; i don't. Is scythe a good filler there ? Consider also that i don't have a lot of special lands; in fact i got Emeria, the Sky Ruin, a pure white scryland, a white cycleland, and Windbrisk Heights; my other lands are all plains, do you think this could make scythe work ?
For the World Queller, considering i MAY use it or not, i like the effect; i have very little to none artifacts or PW in my deck; it can destroy those without touching my board, or tribal stuff ( who knows ? )
He is also a kinda "poor Geddon" for the simple fact that i don't own a Geddon either ( it may happen soon enough, hopefully ! )
Considering those lacks and gaps in my collection, i'm kinda forced towards a higher curve to make the deck work, or so i think, maybe i'm wrong, and i'm totally sure you're right about those excellent cards... that i don't have ! But i'm so forced to use my "bigger" drops gamechangers; i'm even considering putting a unique 6 drop in the deck, the one being Soul of Theros ( or as some may call it, WTF )
And i still need to get a Brimaz too
I yet get you for the likes of the pegasus or return to the ranks and am taking them out; for now it'll get Attended Knight and ... dunno; Eight-and-a-Half-Tails in, the last because of that Maze of Ith argument ( my brain exploded on this one ! )
I'm still a little sad of taking mom out, isn't she worth protecting thalia, for example ? or a focused Silverblade Paladin, Fiend hunter ?
Oh and last but not least, i wonder why i never saw Fiendslayer Paladin in any list ! Is he bad ?
And what 'bout Spear of Heliod ? Better than Crusade IMO, even if mana-hungry !
So, with that said, is the deck worth the trick with a curve a little higher to fill those gaps ? Considering my recents results with it i think it is, and i'll have some more feedback tonight with a little local tournament ( winner gets a tarmogoyf ! Might get me the cards i need for exchange if i win. Wish me luck... )
( please don't say "well without those cards don't play this deck"; if i go this way i can't play ANY deck. I just felt the way that this deck CAN work even with some less-effective cards here and there... )
Your instinct is correct on Mother of Runes. Even if she isn't aggressive, being able to keep Thalia or another white bomb around will net you quite a bit more damage in the long run than another 1 mana guy that maybe has 2 power. She also completely wrecks spot removal in combination of Thalia's ability to make it cost more. Never cut Mother of Runes.
I'm of the opinion that in a Thalia deck - none of your creatures should cost more than 4 mana. Ever. Full stop. It's a white weenie deck, you don't have much in the way of 'real' card advantage so you have to make your lands count and need to be able to comfortably keep 2 land starting hands and still be able to play. Drawing Soul of Theros or Sun Titan will never help you if all you have done all game is drop lands and play Thalia. Your opponent needs to be in the red zone or dead by the time you have 6 lands. (Alternatively, you have 6 lands AND the appropriate number of threats as well because of Land Tax).
While Eight-And-A-Half Tails is cute, she REALLY costs too much mana to use per activation. I'd rather have an aggressive slot here.
If you need ideas on equipment, try Mask of Memory, Skullclamp (just remember not to clamp Thalia unless you want her to go to graveyard, because she has to go to your yard to draw cards), and Bonesplitter. Note the lost cost to equip ratio compared to Strata Scythe. I do not think the Scythe belongs here it is far too mana intensive and will just get whatever creature you try to equip it to spot removed (because at that point your opponent can play through Thalia tax, let's be honest.)
Dan Pyre is right (although we will disagree on card choices, however there is merit to either of our decks and playstyles). But what we agree on is that Thalia (White Weenie in general) doesn't play in a midrange shell. Replacing two drops (SFM) with five drops with similar functionality doesn't work. At that point, you should be in Trostani or, even better, Marath. At thirty-four lands, I struggle to hit my fifth land drop (and have problems hitting my fourth, but I can play on three no problem, which makes my inclusion of Elspeth, Knight-Errant questionable...I choose to play it because it's so good versus control).
For noncreature spells, I'd consider them at +1 cmc. Is Wing Shards worth holding up four mana for? I couldn't imagine holding that much up. This is why Heliod's Spear doesn't make the cut.
Attended Knight is a good card. Anything that "phones a friend" is good for me.
Fiendslayer Paladin is not, however, and is outclassed by Paladin en-Vec. Protection from 40% of the colour pie > protection from instants/sorceries.
Don't worry, I wasn't suggesting Paladin en-Vec either. Just that, if you're on the Fiendslayer plan, you should be on the en-Vec plan first. (Honestly I think the three drops I play are the best choices, though I want to replace Archetype of Courage with Brimaz, King of Oreskos. There could be merit in replacing my Fabled Hero as well, but at the moment it's performing its role well enough -- kind of like a weaker Mirran Crusader).
Eight-and-a-Half is good because, while it's mana heavy, it's not an every turn -- just when necessary and that time it's there, you'll love it. Anything from blanking removal, blanking things we normally can't blank, or my personal favourite, fixing up Thalia to get the final two points of commander damage through. A lot of the time, it (Tails) will feel like Tower of the Magistrate -- just a colourless land. But that one time it saves you, you realize just how important the effect is, and that will single-handedly earn it's way into a permanent deckslot. The other important to-note fact is, it doesn't tap to be used (so protecting multiple cards, suiting up multiple cards with evasion, these are all very reasonable to do).
Knight of Meadowgrain is alright. It's not a fulltime cast member, but it isn't a bad card itself (I used to play it until some of the better two drops came out).
I had high hopes for Daru Warchief as well. Cost reduction? free Holy Strength to 87% of our creatures? Sure! But the reality is the cost reduction doesn't matter when he's the top of your curve, and otherwise he's a four mana 2/3. Consider at four cmc you can play Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Hero of Bladehold, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Angel of Jubilation, & Celestial Crusader -- all of which are leagues better. Then when you add in Heliod, Resto./Emeria Angel and your CA refill Ranger of Eos...I think you can see the competition at the four drop slot is very, very high.
All of those white critters with p/t = # of critters on the board are not good enough at the present cmc they're made at. Now if they were on par with Voice of Resurgence...
Geist-Honored Monk remains a good card, but not good for this deck (I'd have to be playing Reveillark first, and that isn't going to happen in this deck).
A lot of the choices I have are there because they have a sort of virtual CA ability, and I can maximize their usefulness by resetting them with a Kor Skyfisher effect. This grants me the "reach" I need to close out long games if I wasn't able to lock things up in the early turns, for w/e reason.
I'm just happy to have some discussion on this thread, man! I play Kaalia aggro (which is really combo in disguise), and Lyzolda Aggro mostly, so something "straight-forward" like W Weenie is very refreshing. It makes for "three" strategies that are similar, yet accomplish their goals in very different ways.
Oh, before I forget. The very best land in this deck is Kjeldoran Outpost. Get one. Hold it. Love it. Never leave home without it.
Congrats on your 3-2, that is a good showing, especially for a list that still has plenty of room to be tuned!
Yeah, the times Vial is good is on t1, but even then you're deploying one drops on t2, which puts you down a turn. And it only gets worse than that when you rip it late. Couple this with it being an artifact means anti-synergy with Kataki...who is much better (and outright wins versus some decks). Vial is not a corre component of the deck, even if it seems like it would be.
Variance in draws is a major limiting factour to any non-U deck, and Thalia WW is certainly no exception. Just because you've happened to hit five lands on t5 doesn't mean you will always hit that on time. Just something to keep in mind and worth keeping a record of (say about sixty games or so in order to track it with plenty of research). I remember a game, I had Land Tax'd all my basics out, it's super late, so I rip...Windswept Heath. Really unfortunate, but this doesn't mean I have too many lands (not on just one game anyway), moreso just variance in top decks which just happens, and all we can do is accept it.
Ethersworn Canonist is indeed an interesting card. Due to it's typeline, I don't think it's correct to play it with Kataki, instead it's a meta card and is very strong vs Storm, Elfball, and Animar. Actually where it's strong is probably where Kataki is weak, so you could swap the two interchangeably, meta depending.
I played Thraben Doomsayer too, for quite awhile. It's OK, but not great. You won't get Fateful Hour turned on ever, so is it worth spending 1WW to produce a 1/1 every turn? Maybe? Is it worth it if that effect is stapled to an easily dealt with creature? Less likely? I'd probably play Mobilization over this because it's repeatable and, hey, sometimes free Vigilance is useful. More likely I'd play Heliod over this first because it grants the the Vigilance, is an indestructible enchantment, makes dudes as long as you have mana, and sometimes bashing for five with an indestructible body is good.
Knock yourself out with those five drops. You don't need them though, but I will let you find this out yourself.
It's a shame Outlast is sorcery speed and requires a tap - else there'd be a lot of decent cards that could make the cut here. But there is one that stands out to me.
It's an Attended Knight variant. Not too exciting, but I always like to see guys that bring a buddy with them. Discuss?
I love this deck & Thalia but my store is mostly a mix of multiplayer with a dash of one on one. so is there a good middle ground for both play styles? what changes would I make to make it slightly multiplayer focused without losing its 1v1 game.
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Jori en, Ruin Diver UR
Anafenza, The Foremost BGW
Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
Vela the Night-Clad UB
I love this deck & Thalia but my store is mostly a mix of multiplayer with a dash of one on one. so is there a good middle ground for both play styles? what changes would I make to make it slightly multiplayer focused without losing its 1v1 game.
I would not advise playing Thalia in a multiplayer environment. Oh god no.
Is attended knight good or just oK? It might be worth playing because asi you said there is a lot of variance in draws and it works as another knight. The question is, do you want to see knight every game? Is it that good?
Attended Knight is good, but it's certainly not a Brimaz, King of Oreskos. I'm never sad to see Knight, but I also don't feel I can't win if I don't draw him. Do I need him in multiples? Doubtful.
Both are three cmc. One is 2/2 first strike vs 2/3 vanilla. One always makes a dude, one needs a condition (attack) in order to make one. I'd say Knight is the clear head-and-shoulders pick unless you feel you want another copy of the effect. Could be useful if you're like me and lean on Skyfisher-esque cards to create a virtual CA with these guys.
3drinks. Whats your up to date thalia list? I havent played her in so long. It makes me sad. :(.
I believe I updated her after adding a Brimaz. Should be in this thread a page or two ago if you're on "show maximum replies" like I do. I guess I could bring it to the forefront again. (It's also the Thalia link in my sig).
Looks like it needs to add in Containment Priest, as that was just freshly spoiled (C14 isn't even out on the client yet). Currently leaning towards Serra Avenger as the cut for Priest.
3drinks. Whats your up to date thalia list? I havent played her in so long. It makes me sad. :(.
I believe I updated her after adding a Brimaz. Should be in this thread a page or two ago if you're on "show maximum replies" like I do. I guess I could bring it to the forefront again. (It's also the Thalia link in my sig).
Looks like it needs to add in Containment Priest, as that was just freshly spoiled (C14 isn't even out on the client yet). Currently leaning towards Serra Avenger as the cut for Priest.
Hey I know I'm normally dumb with these kinda things but wouldn't keening apparition be a better option over War Priest of Thune? or is the Human creature type really that important?
Hey I know I'm normally dumb with these kinda things but wouldn't keening apparition be a better option over War Priest of Thune? or is the Human creature type really that important?
The type is (somewhat) relevant (more soldiers than spirits and we have some pro-soldier stuff), but for me, I prefer to have a body on the board. Both beat t2 Sylvan Library, but one leaves two power on the board.
So the full spoiler for FRF went up. Looks like we got some goodies.
I'm probs more excited than I should be for a new Suntail Hawk. Second one is a Savannah Lions with some minor targeted grave hate, which is cool. Man gone are the days where it was acceptable for the Kitty to be Rare, huh? And the third one is "another buddy effect", so it's worth mentioning. 2W for a 2/1 and a 1/1 flyer? That's playable.
So the full spoiler for FRF went up. Looks like we got some goodies.
I'm probs more excited than I should be for a new Suntail Hawk. Second one is a Savannah Lions with some minor targeted grave hate, which is cool. Man gone are the days where it was acceptable for the Kitty to be Rare, huh? And the third one is "another buddy effect", so it's worth mentioning. 2W for a 2/1 and a 1/1 flyer? That's playable.
Discuss!
I haven't played in a while but am still poking around on occasion. I updated the decklist in the OP to include Aven Skirmisher and Mardu Woe-Reaper when they were spoiled (as well as a few other small adjustments). Both definitely merit inclusion. I don't think Sandsteppe Outcast is good enough, though. Marginally better than Attended Knight but not nearly as good as Blade Splicer, and I only play the latter.
That makes sense because I am still playing Attended Knight. Are we really at a place where some of these "phone a friend" effects aren't good enough anymore?
That makes sense because I am still playing Attended Knight. Are we really at a place where some of these "phone a friend" effects aren't good enough anymore?
My personal feeling is that it's still just three power for three mana, which is not great compared to what the rest of the deck can do. Being on two separate bodies is an advantage over a single body (it would be extremely uncommon for Sandsteppe Outcast to be better as a 3/2 than a 2/1 and a 1/1, with or without flying), but not that much of an advantage. I don't think we have enough mass pump effects for that to make much difference. In general, the deck is tight on card choices, and I've found stuff I prefer to run over Attended Knight and Sandsteppe Outcast. It's not a matter of them being bad; I just don't think there's enough room. I certainly don't think Attended Knight or Sandsteppe Outcast comes anywhere close to any of my other three-drops in power.
Also pondering putting together a "Tiny Leaders" version of the deck. I think I'll include it on the front page once it's ready. Should be relatively straightforward, though as Tiny Leaders is more aggro-oriented, Thalia's advantages are a little bit smaller (on the other hand, 25 life and 50 cards makes things a bit easier).
Edit: Put up a Tiny Leaders version but can't figure out how to get the Sideboard to work under the deck tags... Clearly I can't MTGSalvation.
That makes sense because I am still playing Attended Knight. Are we really at a place where some of these "phone a friend" effects aren't good enough anymore?
My personal feeling is that it's still just three power for three mana, which is not great compared to what the rest of the deck can do. Being on two separate bodies is an advantage over a single body (it would be extremely uncommon for Sandsteppe Outcast to be better as a 3/2 than a 2/1 and a 1/1, with or without flying), but not that much of an advantage. I don't think we have enough mass pump effects for that to make much difference. In general, the deck is tight on card choices, and I've found stuff I prefer to run over Attended Knight and Sandsteppe Outcast. It's not a matter of them being bad; I just don't think there's enough room. I certainly don't think Attended Knight or Sandsteppe Outcast comes anywhere close to any of my other three-drops in power.
Also pondering putting together a "Tiny Leaders" version of the deck. I think I'll include it on the front page once it's ready. Should be relatively straightforward, though as Tiny Leaders is more aggro-oriented, Thalia's advantages are a little bit smaller (on the other hand, 25 life and 50 cards makes things a bit easier).
Edit: Put up a Tiny Leaders version but can't figure out how to get the Sideboard to work under the deck tags... Clearly I can't MTGSalvation.
Sure. It's a weaker three drop (not even as good as the Fabled Hero I'm running, which has been solid if an unexciting Mirran Crusader). Are you still running Frontline Medic? I've found it's generally a Trained Armodon that gives us advantage during combat. The odds of blanking a Sphinx's Revelation are low since they can see him sitting there. I still need to acquire a Containment Priest, so Medic could be a reasonable cut for it?
That makes sense because I am still playing Attended Knight. Are we really at a place where some of these "phone a friend" effects aren't good enough anymore?
My personal feeling is that it's still just three power for three mana, which is not great compared to what the rest of the deck can do. Being on two separate bodies is an advantage over a single body (it would be extremely uncommon for Sandsteppe Outcast to be better as a 3/2 than a 2/1 and a 1/1, with or without flying), but not that much of an advantage. I don't think we have enough mass pump effects for that to make much difference. In general, the deck is tight on card choices, and I've found stuff I prefer to run over Attended Knight and Sandsteppe Outcast. It's not a matter of them being bad; I just don't think there's enough room. I certainly don't think Attended Knight or Sandsteppe Outcast comes anywhere close to any of my other three-drops in power.
Also pondering putting together a "Tiny Leaders" version of the deck. I think I'll include it on the front page once it's ready. Should be relatively straightforward, though as Tiny Leaders is more aggro-oriented, Thalia's advantages are a little bit smaller (on the other hand, 25 life and 50 cards makes things a bit easier).
Edit: Put up a Tiny Leaders version but can't figure out how to get the Sideboard to work under the deck tags... Clearly I can't MTGSalvation.
Sure. It's a weaker three drop (not even as good as the Fabled Hero I'm running, which has been solid if an unexciting Mirran Crusader). Are you still running Frontline Medic? I've found it's generally a Trained Armodon that gives us advantage during combat. The odds of blanking a Sphinx's Revelation are low since they can see him sitting there. I still need to acquire a Containment Priest, so Medic could be a reasonable cut for it?
I don't think I've ever run Frontline Medic. To my mind, it's too narrow, and its effects aren't strong enough. I suppose it was a useful card in a Standard dominated by Sphinx's Revelation (Maybe? Don't know much about Standard), but I don't see the point in EDH.
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C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
It is not necessary at all. Burn isn't so much the threat as outright destruction is. And we're not supposed to be blocking (if we're blocking, we're already on the backfoot and losing). We're supposed to be on the offense in order to keep pressuring them. So Rune-tail is win-more and sometimes just plain not good.
Consider, then, that when do you cast this? Surely you get more use out of our creatures by dealing damage than by bringing some randoms back. So we don't want to Convoke this. That means we have to cast it. Alright, fair enough. But we can't cast it with Thalia on the battlefield (indeed, do you want to pay four mana to bring back a two drop? I don't). So we can cast it at four cmc then, when Thalia isn't on the battlefield, to get back a pair of two drops on an opposing end step. This is a good play, but this is not the most common scenario (indeed, I would rather have Thalia in play all the time, than wait to bring back a two drop).
The verdict, then, is it's good when we've lost creatures and don't have our commander in play. A terrible place for us to be in the first place (and a losing position by all rights). If we're losing...what two 2-drops can we bring back that makes us "not lose" then? None. There's no single combination of two drops, in that multiplyer, that can cause us to go from "losing" to "winning". So this card is better positioned in a Trostani, Selesnya's Voice (for example) that can make more guys from thin air and reliably keep it's CMC down (and additionally, also has a better choice of one and two drops to bring back).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Hi. A lot of the cards you mentioned are too much mana or just plain not good on their own (World Queller? So we're paying five mana for a 4/4 that eats a permanent if we untap with it? Unacceptable use of resources). StratScyth is also not good, especially consider there are many more powerful equips we could play in it's place, and for less mana too. Compare it to Konda's Banner which is less to cast, and always guarantees to give us +2/+2 across the board, and is castable under Thalia where Scythe is not. Scythe also wants us to have three plains in order to be better than Banner (and even then, it's debatable since Banner lords our team while Scythe pumps one guy) the inherent problem with Scythe is that we don't need more than five lands (often times we don't get past four) and of those five, it's likely only two of them are Plains (flagstones, eiganjo, mutavault, cavern, etc).
Five drops are not where you want to be in this deck. You want to hit four and then 'Geddon. That's all. And even then, you want your guys to be aggressive, not durdle-bots. Porcelain Legionnaire looks impressive, while Cavalry Pegasus does not. (Although Porcelain is less good if you're playing Kataki, War's Wage like I am). This is also why Return to the Ranks isn't good as an instant (and even worse now that I see it's a sorcery).
Mother of Runes isn't aggressive enough. This isn't like, say, Animar or, say, Kaalia, where we are trying to protect one dude. (In fact, spending a removal on one of our guys is often a bad play since our dudes are so similar and not worth the value of the removal on average). So Mom's slot here is a wasted resource, a dude that's committed to the board that doesn't go into the red zone. Eight-and-a-half on the other hand can still attack, block like a champ, and blank even Maze of Ith.
Spirit Bonds is a legitimately interesting card. On the surface It looks like I want to cast it post-Thalia which makes it a three cmc Time Walk, but the way it provides wrath resilience while simultaneously speeding my clock (with evasion, even!) makes me want it to be good. Of course it could just be Detention Sphere bait. When I get the chance I will pick one up and, assuming my laptop cooperates with MODO, I will give it a good and thorough testing. (I still need to get a Brimaz, King of Oreskos as well...and Soldier of the Pantheon which I seem to have forgotten.)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Your instinct is correct on Mother of Runes. Even if she isn't aggressive, being able to keep Thalia or another white bomb around will net you quite a bit more damage in the long run than another 1 mana guy that maybe has 2 power. She also completely wrecks spot removal in combination of Thalia's ability to make it cost more. Never cut Mother of Runes.
I'm of the opinion that in a Thalia deck - none of your creatures should cost more than 4 mana. Ever. Full stop. It's a white weenie deck, you don't have much in the way of 'real' card advantage so you have to make your lands count and need to be able to comfortably keep 2 land starting hands and still be able to play. Drawing Soul of Theros or Sun Titan will never help you if all you have done all game is drop lands and play Thalia. Your opponent needs to be in the red zone or dead by the time you have 6 lands. (Alternatively, you have 6 lands AND the appropriate number of threats as well because of Land Tax).
While Eight-And-A-Half Tails is cute, she REALLY costs too much mana to use per activation. I'd rather have an aggressive slot here.
If you need ideas on equipment, try Mask of Memory, Skullclamp (just remember not to clamp Thalia unless you want her to go to graveyard, because she has to go to your yard to draw cards), and Bonesplitter. Note the lost cost to equip ratio compared to Strata Scythe. I do not think the Scythe belongs here it is far too mana intensive and will just get whatever creature you try to equip it to spot removed (because at that point your opponent can play through Thalia tax, let's be honest.)
Don't run Norn's Annex. You're supposed to be on offense. Run Tangle Wire instead.
Don't forget Honor of the Pure. Creature versions in Pianna, Nomad Captain and Soltari Champion.
Every creature you run should have ONE of the following:
1) More Power than converted mana cost. (Spirit of the Labyrinth, Elite Vanguard, War Falcon, Isamaru, Hound of Konda, Soldier of the Pantheon)
2) An effect that makes up for not having more power than converted mana cost. (Thalia, Champion of the Parish, Archetype of Courage, Phyrexian Revoker, Silverblade Paladin, Hokori, Dust Drinker)
3) Provide real or virtual Card Advantage. (Mentor of the Meek, Emeria Angel, Ranger of Eos (also another reason to run Mother of Runes), Precinct Captain, Knight of the White Orchid, Stoneforge Mystic, Blade Splicer.)
Hope this helps!
For noncreature spells, I'd consider them at +1 cmc. Is Wing Shards worth holding up four mana for? I couldn't imagine holding that much up. This is why Heliod's Spear doesn't make the cut.
Attended Knight is a good card. Anything that "phones a friend" is good for me.
Fiendslayer Paladin is not, however, and is outclassed by Paladin en-Vec. Protection from 40% of the colour pie > protection from instants/sorceries.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Eight-and-a-Half is good because, while it's mana heavy, it's not an every turn -- just when necessary and that time it's there, you'll love it. Anything from blanking removal, blanking things we normally can't blank, or my personal favourite, fixing up Thalia to get the final two points of commander damage through. A lot of the time, it (Tails) will feel like Tower of the Magistrate -- just a colourless land. But that one time it saves you, you realize just how important the effect is, and that will single-handedly earn it's way into a permanent deckslot. The other important to-note fact is, it doesn't tap to be used (so protecting multiple cards, suiting up multiple cards with evasion, these are all very reasonable to do).
Knight of Meadowgrain is alright. It's not a fulltime cast member, but it isn't a bad card itself (I used to play it until some of the better two drops came out).
I had high hopes for Daru Warchief as well. Cost reduction? free Holy Strength to 87% of our creatures? Sure! But the reality is the cost reduction doesn't matter when he's the top of your curve, and otherwise he's a four mana 2/3. Consider at four cmc you can play Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Hero of Bladehold, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Angel of Jubilation, & Celestial Crusader -- all of which are leagues better. Then when you add in Heliod, Resto./Emeria Angel and your CA refill Ranger of Eos...I think you can see the competition at the four drop slot is very, very high.
Before I played Hand of Honor, I'd have to be playing White Knight. First Strike > Bushido.
All of those white critters with p/t = # of critters on the board are not good enough at the present cmc they're made at. Now if they were on par with Voice of Resurgence...
Geist-Honored Monk remains a good card, but not good for this deck (I'd have to be playing Reveillark first, and that isn't going to happen in this deck).
A lot of the choices I have are there because they have a sort of virtual CA ability, and I can maximize their usefulness by resetting them with a Kor Skyfisher effect. This grants me the "reach" I need to close out long games if I wasn't able to lock things up in the early turns, for w/e reason.
I'm just happy to have some discussion on this thread, man! I play Kaalia aggro (which is really combo in disguise), and Lyzolda Aggro mostly, so something "straight-forward" like W Weenie is very refreshing. It makes for "three" strategies that are similar, yet accomplish their goals in very different ways.
Oh, before I forget. The very best land in this deck is Kjeldoran Outpost. Get one. Hold it. Love it. Never leave home without it.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Yeah, the times Vial is good is on t1, but even then you're deploying one drops on t2, which puts you down a turn. And it only gets worse than that when you rip it late. Couple this with it being an artifact means anti-synergy with Kataki...who is much better (and outright wins versus some decks). Vial is not a corre component of the deck, even if it seems like it would be.
Variance in draws is a major limiting factour to any non-U deck, and Thalia WW is certainly no exception. Just because you've happened to hit five lands on t5 doesn't mean you will always hit that on time. Just something to keep in mind and worth keeping a record of (say about sixty games or so in order to track it with plenty of research). I remember a game, I had Land Tax'd all my basics out, it's super late, so I rip...Windswept Heath. Really unfortunate, but this doesn't mean I have too many lands (not on just one game anyway), moreso just variance in top decks which just happens, and all we can do is accept it.
Ethersworn Canonist is indeed an interesting card. Due to it's typeline, I don't think it's correct to play it with Kataki, instead it's a meta card and is very strong vs Storm, Elfball, and Animar. Actually where it's strong is probably where Kataki is weak, so you could swap the two interchangeably, meta depending.
I played Thraben Doomsayer too, for quite awhile. It's OK, but not great. You won't get Fateful Hour turned on ever, so is it worth spending 1WW to produce a 1/1 every turn? Maybe? Is it worth it if that effect is stapled to an easily dealt with creature? Less likely? I'd probably play Mobilization over this because it's repeatable and, hey, sometimes free Vigilance is useful. More likely I'd play Heliod over this first because it grants the the Vigilance, is an indestructible enchantment, makes dudes as long as you have mana, and sometimes bashing for five with an indestructible body is good.
Knock yourself out with those five drops. You don't need them though, but I will let you find this out yourself.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
It's an Attended Knight variant. Not too exciting, but I always like to see guys that bring a buddy with them. Discuss?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Jori en, Ruin Diver UR
Anafenza, The Foremost BGW
Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
Vela the Night-Clad UB
I would not advise playing Thalia in a multiplayer environment. Oh god no.
Attended Knight is good, but it's certainly not a Brimaz, King of Oreskos. I'm never sad to see Knight, but I also don't feel I can't win if I don't draw him. Do I need him in multiples? Doubtful.
Both are three cmc. One is 2/2 first strike vs 2/3 vanilla. One always makes a dude, one needs a condition (attack) in order to make one. I'd say Knight is the clear head-and-shoulders pick unless you feel you want another copy of the effect. Could be useful if you're like me and lean on Skyfisher-esque cards to create a virtual CA with these guys.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Spiritkeeper is bad. Worse than any other 3 drop we have right now. Itd take a lot to consider as its so far down the totem pole.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Looks like it needs to add in Containment Priest, as that was just freshly spoiled (C14 isn't even out on the client yet). Currently leaning towards Serra Avenger as the cut for Priest.
1 Champion of the Parish
1 Gideon's Lawkeeper
1 Student of Warfare
1 Suntail Hawk
1 Soldier of the Pantheon
1 Soltari Foot Soldier
1 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Lantern Kami
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Precinct Captain
1 Leonin Arbiter
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Monk
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Serra Avenger
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Glowrider
1 Attended Knight
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Banisher Priest
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Flickerwisp
1 Mirror Entity
1 Emancipation Angel
1 Frontline Medic
1 Fabled Hero
1 Blade Splicer
1 Soltari Champion
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
1 Restoration Angel
1 Emeria Angel
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Skullclamp
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tithe
1 Path to Exile
1 Land Tax
1 Mask of Memory
1 Konda's Banner
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Winter Orb
1 Renounce the Guilds
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Crusade
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Tangle Wire
1 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Arid Mesa
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Daru Encampment
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Flooded Strand
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Karoo
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Strip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Windswept Heath
10 Plains
9 Snow-Covered Plains
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Winter Orb is banned.
As it says in the post linked in my sig, I play on MODO which does not follow the Duel-Commander ruleset. Thanks.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
The type is (somewhat) relevant (more soldiers than spirits and we have some pro-soldier stuff), but for me, I prefer to have a body on the board. Both beat t2 Sylvan Library, but one leaves two power on the board.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
1 Planar Guide
1 Suntail Hawk
1 Gideon's Lawkeeper
1 Doomed Traveler
1 Selfless Cathar
1 Champion of the Parish
1 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 War Falcon
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Leonin Arbiter
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Serra Avenger
1 Precinct Captain
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Emancipation Angel
1 Glowrider
1 Emeria Angel
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Celestial Crusader
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Reveillark
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Skullclamp
1 Tangle Wire
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mask of Memory
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Land Tax
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Crusade
1 Oust
1 Cataclysm
1 Armageddon
1 Revoke Existence
20 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Windswept Heath
1 Daru Encampment
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Marsh Flats
1 Rishadan Port
1 Mutavault
1 Arid Mesa
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Wasteland
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Flooded Strand
1 AEther Vial
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Last Breath
1 Lantern Kami
1 Student of Warfare
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Wispmare
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Kongming, "Sleeping Dragon"
1 Containment Priest
1 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
1 Angelic Field Marshal
thoughts?
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
I'm probs more excited than I should be for a new Suntail Hawk. Second one is a Savannah Lions with some minor targeted grave hate, which is cool. Man gone are the days where it was acceptable for the Kitty to be Rare, huh? And the third one is "another buddy effect", so it's worth mentioning. 2W for a 2/1 and a 1/1 flyer? That's playable.
Discuss!
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I haven't played in a while but am still poking around on occasion. I updated the decklist in the OP to include Aven Skirmisher and Mardu Woe-Reaper when they were spoiled (as well as a few other small adjustments). Both definitely merit inclusion. I don't think Sandsteppe Outcast is good enough, though. Marginally better than Attended Knight but not nearly as good as Blade Splicer, and I only play the latter.
That makes sense because I am still playing Attended Knight. Are we really at a place where some of these "phone a friend" effects aren't good enough anymore?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
My personal feeling is that it's still just three power for three mana, which is not great compared to what the rest of the deck can do. Being on two separate bodies is an advantage over a single body (it would be extremely uncommon for Sandsteppe Outcast to be better as a 3/2 than a 2/1 and a 1/1, with or without flying), but not that much of an advantage. I don't think we have enough mass pump effects for that to make much difference. In general, the deck is tight on card choices, and I've found stuff I prefer to run over Attended Knight and Sandsteppe Outcast. It's not a matter of them being bad; I just don't think there's enough room. I certainly don't think Attended Knight or Sandsteppe Outcast comes anywhere close to any of my other three-drops in power.
Also pondering putting together a "Tiny Leaders" version of the deck. I think I'll include it on the front page once it's ready. Should be relatively straightforward, though as Tiny Leaders is more aggro-oriented, Thalia's advantages are a little bit smaller (on the other hand, 25 life and 50 cards makes things a bit easier).
Edit: Put up a Tiny Leaders version but can't figure out how to get the Sideboard to work under the deck tags... Clearly I can't MTGSalvation.
Sure. It's a weaker three drop (not even as good as the Fabled Hero I'm running, which has been solid if an unexciting Mirran Crusader). Are you still running Frontline Medic? I've found it's generally a Trained Armodon that gives us advantage during combat. The odds of blanking a Sphinx's Revelation are low since they can see him sitting there. I still need to acquire a Containment Priest, so Medic could be a reasonable cut for it?
SB coding works like this;
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Path to Exile
1 Abolish
1 Circle of Protection: Red
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I don't think I've ever run Frontline Medic. To my mind, it's too narrow, and its effects aren't strong enough. I suppose it was a useful card in a Standard dominated by Sphinx's Revelation (Maybe? Don't know much about Standard), but I don't see the point in EDH.