the US banlist follows the duelcommander.net bans.
i still like to play with tezzeret, but there is a lack of 1-1 in my area. only 1 or 2 people want to play 1-1 in my store and even then most of the time it's their multiplayer deck and we are playing with two different ban lists.
the one consistent player of duel commander in the area and i have played the match up enough that we sometimes shuffle and reveal cards from the top of our deck instead of play. whoever hits polymorph or emrakul removal first wins.
SamuraiMunky, I found I had a decent winning percentage against control commanders that cost 4 mana (i.e., people who relied on 4cc main phase spells). Talrand being a big one. IMO it does not always come down to Polymorph, though I realize I probably played that card more conservatively than others, for better or worse.
The basic wincon is usually Omniscience + Enter the Infinite + Laboratory Maniac. You use cheap counters and Stasis to stall the game to get there, while using draw power the whole time to fill your hand with what you need.
Mind Control is inferior to Control Magic. And if you're hellbent on paying five mana, why not Bribery?
Archmage Ascension never worked quite well enough for me in testing; if I got six counters on it, the game was likely won anyways.
If you're playing Sol Ring, you're presumably using the mutiplayer rules, so I'd advise adding Winter Orb.
Sunken Field doesn't seem like a terribly good deal, trading a land for a land, essentially. Not to mention you have to spend 2 mana in your main phase to get it on the table.
Spellbook... do you really need this? I used to play Reliquary Tower in my list, but found seven cards was generally enough.
Psychic Barrier in this deck is likely worse than Remove Soul, since your opponents life total generally has no impact on your ability to win.
Tolarian Winds is awful, even in a deck like this. Though I have found Scroll Rack to be a serious consideration in my list.
Spy Network, Omen... you have to be able to do better than this, with 20 years of blue spells available! Peek, Gitaxian Probe, Portent, Clairvoyance, would all fit the bill IMO.
You have a bunch of cards to tap opponents creatures, but I think Sleep is pretty bad. There is an instant you can play to tap two creatures and keep them tapped for the following turn (sorry, I forget the name). I assume that would be better than any of the tap cards you have, since it gives you safety for two turns.
Anyways, many of these suggestions may be obvious, so apologies if there's budget reasons for not including, or anticompetitive reasons. Just some quick thoughts, from my admittedly competitive thinking.
I'm on mobile again at the moment, so bear with me lol.
Admittedly, I am a broke college student so budget is a huge deal. I try to avoid from buying cards as much as I can, ao if I can't trade for it, I usually don't bother. Most of the additions in here are just things that I thought would be decent in the Kami deck. Alright, no to the suggestions.
1000% agree with mind control being bad, I just didn't have control magi or bribery, so it's basically a stand in until I'm able to get a few better cards, although I am run in proxies for key expensive cards like Capture of Jingzhou and Temporal Manipulation.
Archmage Ascnsion, in my testing, has lead to around 3 uses. The first, sticking it when you don't really have a whole lot in hand and need to "get there". If it sticks and gets to 6, you basically just win. The second bing an accelerator. There have been many times when I've been able to chain together a bunch of Time Walks and still not have had my wincon, and with archmage, the last or last few turns just let's you search for exactly what you need every turn. The third just being a target for a counter or removal spell. It's not essential to win, but they don't know that.
DEFINITELY adding winter orb as soon as I can get my hands on one.
Sunken Field has been hit and miss. I like it since it gives you a "free" counter every turn, and it makes your opponent wait a little longer so that they can pay that 1, by I agree, it's one of the first to go.
In my list, I've included every "no max hand size" card in he game, since I've been finding that when you and your opponent are both drawing a bunch of cards, being able to keep all of yours is a huge advantage. I don think I'll want to take out spellbook, but venser's journal is definitely a candidate for removal.
The psychic barrier has nothing to do with he life loss. It's just another cheap counter to add, and I didn't have a remove soul laying around haha.
Tolarian Winds has also been one of those bit and miss. It's another I stand speed draw ***** tons so I can put another counter on archmage at EOT, and if I have nothing in my hand that helps me win, it's just a great draw spell. It also works REALLY well with library of leng, since you can discard things you DO want to keep to the top of your library.
Spy Network is in here simply because it does SO much for so little. It gives you a lot of information about your opponents plan, even info that your opponent down even know, while ALSO setting up your draws. Omen is just another way to set up draws and shuffle your library if nothing is on top that gets your there. Simply a Ponder for 2.
As for the mass tapping, Rhys the Redeemed is a HUGE meta played deck in multiplayer EDH, so sleep buys you a LOT of time. However, gridlock is bad and I would love to replace it.
Ahh, gotcha. For budget purposes, I can't help too much. I'm an online-only player at this point. I think one card that might be cheap is Sleight of Mind, which is better than a bunch of those 1cc spells I mentioned above.
Oblivion Stone, I literally never thought of that. And it takes care of Planeswalkers too, which might be nice. (Liliana of the Veil is possibly the best card against this deck).
I did try Bribery but found I wasn't too often able to get something amazing enough to justify it. Since the deck is so light on creatures, my opponents usually tend to have some creature kill in hand, so unless I got an Emrakul or similar from them, it wasn't fantastic.
I think I tried Relic of Progenitus, but don't you find it fairly narrow? Or was this a metagame call for you? Torpor Orb is definitely a metagame call as well, IMO. I found it lacking, and most useful in matchups that I thought were already advantageous (Karidor, Animar).
Short of a tutor-heavy deck, this deck does make the most out of 1-of's in a 99 card pile, considering most games go through half of one's library. Combined with Tezz, you can probably get these things more often than not, if you need them, in a given game.
Scroll Rack is weird. Sometimes you have it when you're behind, and it's brutal. Your hand is emptied from dealing with threats and it's just terrible.
Sometimes you have 11 cards in your hand and it's "win more".
And sometimes you have 4 cards in your hand, but they're not quite what you need, and the game is stalled, and you Rack for a few turns and it wins you games.
I could see it as anywhere between card 90 to card 110 in these 100 card decks
My favorite EDH deck is a Kami of the Crescent Moon deck...I go the Owling Mine route though...I have Black Vise/Iron Maiden/Owl/Skullcage/Viseling...I also like using Arcane Laboratory, Stormtide Leviathan as a moat, Meishin the Mind Cage...also Paradox Haze is fantastic with 2 vises down. A well-timed Cyclonic Rift can win you the game in a ridiculous manner.
It should also be noted that opponents love playing these decks for a while, because they're drawing and usually playing cards like crazy...until you bounce all their creatures and then throw down a Laboratory and an Anvil of Bogardan.
I'm not sure Emrakul ever got exiled, in 600+ games I played. And during that time, I probably won less than 5 times with Jace's ability. I mean, maybe 2 times in 600 games.
Vedalken Shackles is a viable option if Emrakul gets exiled, and I think Jace's ultimate would be as well. With all the bounce and things like Stasis though, you can also manipulate some things and try to deck your opponent. Midway through a game, you may be 7 to 10 cards less than your opponent, in terms of library size, and targeting your opponent with things like Ancestral Vision, Jace Beleren, and Time Warp, can make up that gap so that you can bleed both of yourselves out of library in equal measures.
Most often, if the Emrakul plan was disrupted, it was due to something like Wrath of God or an opponent's Jace bounce. It's important to remember that Emrakul's ability to shuffle the grave into the library probably contributes to at least 30% of the games he wins. Typically if this happens even just once, I can gum up the game, keep laying Howling Mines and such, and win via decking. This is why I think there may never be a creature that is anywhere near as good as him in this deck. Getting a full hand and discarding him - either to refill your library, or simply to get him back in there for a Polymorph - probably happens in 1/7 games.
You could try out Blightsteel Colossus, but honestly, he's just not on the same level as Emrakul. But if you do try Blighsteel, you can also change the deck up somewhat and give Shape Anew a go as another Polymorph effect.
I think the next best creature after Emrakul would be Ulamog. I really can't understate how important it is to be able to discard these guys to shuffle your graveyard back into your library.
Now that Winter Orb, Crucible of Worlds and Sensei's Divining Top was unbanned, how would you change the list?
I have the same deck, without Force of Will, Capture of Jingzhou, Temporal Manipulation and Personal Tutor, because they are too hard to find or/and too expensive
Winter Orb is amazing in the deck, so that definitely goes right back in. I have to assume I'd find a spot for SDT as well.
Crucible of Worlds is hard to say. While it's always nice to recur Wasteland or some fetchlands, I don't think it's necessary in here. You're drawing enough cards each turn that you aren't missing too many land drops. And my lands rarely ever get destroyed by opponents; there's only a few nonbasics and none of them are really relied upon too heavily.
One other thing I'd consider, due to the unbanning of SDT, is Long Term Plans. It's always been right on the cusp of making the 99. It's card disadvantage, but it doesn't take too long to get the card into your hand with this deck. Usually if I play it at my opponent's EOT, I'll have the card I tutored in my hand by the main phase of my subsequent turn anyways. SDT just gives one more way to make that happen... and it gives SDT one more shuffle mechanism. Win-win-win.
I most miss Vedalken Shackles, but it hurts playing that on Turn 3. Cursed Totem is my newest test. I have a hard time with Elf-type decks since they can actually play most or all of the spells I'm letting them draw. (I frown upon this). If it doesn't work as expected, it will be cut for the return of Shackles.
One card I'm testing out now: Diminish. I've been thinking about some removal, like Psionic Blast, but it's kind of costly at 2U. There are a number of games where someone is attacking into my Kami, and this would turn it into a deadly blocker. The new Turn to Frog is a possibility as well, or Ovinize, but I assume the ability loss is less useful since most troublesome abilities can just be used in response. Also somewhat interesting is Polymorphist's Jest is super interesting, allowing an easy way to block-and-kill some troublesome commanders like Narset or Geist.
i still like to play with tezzeret, but there is a lack of 1-1 in my area. only 1 or 2 people want to play 1-1 in my store and even then most of the time it's their multiplayer deck and we are playing with two different ban lists.
the one consistent player of duel commander in the area and i have played the match up enough that we sometimes shuffle and reveal cards from the top of our deck instead of play. whoever hits polymorph or emrakul removal first wins.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
SamuraiMunky, I found I had a decent winning percentage against control commanders that cost 4 mana (i.e., people who relied on 4cc main phase spells). Talrand being a big one. IMO it does not always come down to Polymorph, though I realize I probably played that card more conservatively than others, for better or worse.
1x Kami of the Crescent Moon
Enchantments
1x Stasis
1x Archmage Ascension
1x Omniscience
1x Sunken Field
1x Propaganda
1x Steal Enchantment
1x Mind Control
Artifacts
1x Library of Leng
1x Sol Ring
1x Venser's Journal
1x Temple Bell
1x Spellbook
1x Howling Mine
Instants
1x Squelch
1x Deprive
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brainstorm
1x Rewind
1x Psychic Barrier
1x Gridlock
1x Hoodwink
1x Submerge
1x Syncopate
1x Pact of Negation
1x Dispel
1x Spell Snare
1x Mana Short
1x Essence Scatter
1x Spy Network
1x Vision Skeins
1x Tolarian Winds
1x Daze
1x Mana Leak
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Capsize
1x Into the Roil
1x Blustersquall
1x Foil
1x Counterspell
1x Mana Vapors
1x Gitaxian Probe
1x Negate
1x Ponder
1x Omen
1x Temporal Mastery
1x Time Warp
1x Capture of Jinzhou
1x Temporal Manipulation
1x Ancestral Vision
1x Misstep
1x Sleep
1x Exhaustion
1x Enter the Infinite
Creatures
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Archaeomancer
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Arcanis the Omnipotent
1x Laboratory Maniac
Planeswalkers
1x Jace Beleren
Lands
1x Terrain Generator
1x Strip Mine
1x Reliquary Tower
36x Island
The basic wincon is usually Omniscience + Enter the Infinite + Laboratory Maniac. You use cheap counters and Stasis to stall the game to get there, while using draw power the whole time to fill your hand with what you need.
Mind Control is inferior to Control Magic. And if you're hellbent on paying five mana, why not Bribery?
Archmage Ascension never worked quite well enough for me in testing; if I got six counters on it, the game was likely won anyways.
If you're playing Sol Ring, you're presumably using the mutiplayer rules, so I'd advise adding Winter Orb.
Sunken Field doesn't seem like a terribly good deal, trading a land for a land, essentially. Not to mention you have to spend 2 mana in your main phase to get it on the table.
Spellbook... do you really need this? I used to play Reliquary Tower in my list, but found seven cards was generally enough.
Psychic Barrier in this deck is likely worse than Remove Soul, since your opponents life total generally has no impact on your ability to win.
Tolarian Winds is awful, even in a deck like this. Though I have found Scroll Rack to be a serious consideration in my list.
Spy Network, Omen... you have to be able to do better than this, with 20 years of blue spells available! Peek, Gitaxian Probe, Portent, Clairvoyance, would all fit the bill IMO.
You have a bunch of cards to tap opponents creatures, but I think Sleep is pretty bad. There is an instant you can play to tap two creatures and keep them tapped for the following turn (sorry, I forget the name). I assume that would be better than any of the tap cards you have, since it gives you safety for two turns.
Anyways, many of these suggestions may be obvious, so apologies if there's budget reasons for not including, or anticompetitive reasons. Just some quick thoughts, from my admittedly competitive thinking.
Admittedly, I am a broke college student so budget is a huge deal. I try to avoid from buying cards as much as I can, ao if I can't trade for it, I usually don't bother. Most of the additions in here are just things that I thought would be decent in the Kami deck. Alright, no to the suggestions.
1000% agree with mind control being bad, I just didn't have control magi or bribery, so it's basically a stand in until I'm able to get a few better cards, although I am run in proxies for key expensive cards like Capture of Jingzhou and Temporal Manipulation.
Archmage Ascnsion, in my testing, has lead to around 3 uses. The first, sticking it when you don't really have a whole lot in hand and need to "get there". If it sticks and gets to 6, you basically just win. The second bing an accelerator. There have been many times when I've been able to chain together a bunch of Time Walks and still not have had my wincon, and with archmage, the last or last few turns just let's you search for exactly what you need every turn. The third just being a target for a counter or removal spell. It's not essential to win, but they don't know that.
DEFINITELY adding winter orb as soon as I can get my hands on one.
Sunken Field has been hit and miss. I like it since it gives you a "free" counter every turn, and it makes your opponent wait a little longer so that they can pay that 1, by I agree, it's one of the first to go.
In my list, I've included every "no max hand size" card in he game, since I've been finding that when you and your opponent are both drawing a bunch of cards, being able to keep all of yours is a huge advantage. I don think I'll want to take out spellbook, but venser's journal is definitely a candidate for removal.
The psychic barrier has nothing to do with he life loss. It's just another cheap counter to add, and I didn't have a remove soul laying around haha.
Tolarian Winds has also been one of those bit and miss. It's another I stand speed draw ***** tons so I can put another counter on archmage at EOT, and if I have nothing in my hand that helps me win, it's just a great draw spell. It also works REALLY well with library of leng, since you can discard things you DO want to keep to the top of your library.
Spy Network is in here simply because it does SO much for so little. It gives you a lot of information about your opponents plan, even info that your opponent down even know, while ALSO setting up your draws. Omen is just another way to set up draws and shuffle your library if nothing is on top that gets your there. Simply a Ponder for 2.
As for the mass tapping, Rhys the Redeemed is a HUGE meta played deck in multiplayer EDH, so sleep buys you a LOT of time. However, gridlock is bad and I would love to replace it.
I did try Bribery but found I wasn't too often able to get something amazing enough to justify it. Since the deck is so light on creatures, my opponents usually tend to have some creature kill in hand, so unless I got an Emrakul or similar from them, it wasn't fantastic.
I think I tried Relic of Progenitus, but don't you find it fairly narrow? Or was this a metagame call for you? Torpor Orb is definitely a metagame call as well, IMO. I found it lacking, and most useful in matchups that I thought were already advantageous (Karidor, Animar).
I forgot how fun it is to Bribe Griselbrand
1UU
Enchantment
Better than Temple Bell, for sure, though I think I'd rather keep both in there.
Sometimes you have 11 cards in your hand and it's "win more".
And sometimes you have 4 cards in your hand, but they're not quite what you need, and the game is stalled, and you Rack for a few turns and it wins you games.
I could see it as anywhere between card 90 to card 110 in these 100 card decks
It should also be noted that opponents love playing these decks for a while, because they're drawing and usually playing cards like crazy...until you bounce all their creatures and then throw down a Laboratory and an Anvil of Bogardan.
Btw, have you ever win with Jace 2.0? Or force to do so becuz somehow Emmy get exile.
Vedalken Shackles is a viable option if Emrakul gets exiled, and I think Jace's ultimate would be as well. With all the bounce and things like Stasis though, you can also manipulate some things and try to deck your opponent. Midway through a game, you may be 7 to 10 cards less than your opponent, in terms of library size, and targeting your opponent with things like Ancestral Vision, Jace Beleren, and Time Warp, can make up that gap so that you can bleed both of yourselves out of library in equal measures.
Most often, if the Emrakul plan was disrupted, it was due to something like Wrath of God or an opponent's Jace bounce. It's important to remember that Emrakul's ability to shuffle the grave into the library probably contributes to at least 30% of the games he wins. Typically if this happens even just once, I can gum up the game, keep laying Howling Mines and such, and win via decking. This is why I think there may never be a creature that is anywhere near as good as him in this deck. Getting a full hand and discarding him - either to refill your library, or simply to get him back in there for a Polymorph - probably happens in 1/7 games.
Asking these because my local meta play alot of black and blue.
Bribery & sadistic is pain in the ass.
Who doesn't like 15/15's? Unfathomable!
I have the same deck, without Force of Will, Capture of Jingzhou, Temporal Manipulation and Personal Tutor, because they are too hard to find or/and too expensive
Crucible of Worlds is hard to say. While it's always nice to recur Wasteland or some fetchlands, I don't think it's necessary in here. You're drawing enough cards each turn that you aren't missing too many land drops. And my lands rarely ever get destroyed by opponents; there's only a few nonbasics and none of them are really relied upon too heavily.
One other thing I'd consider, due to the unbanning of SDT, is Long Term Plans. It's always been right on the cusp of making the 99. It's card disadvantage, but it doesn't take too long to get the card into your hand with this deck. Usually if I play it at my opponent's EOT, I'll have the card I tutored in my hand by the main phase of my subsequent turn anyways. SDT just gives one more way to make that happen... and it gives SDT one more shuffle mechanism. Win-win-win.
Updated the main decklist on page 1 with my current 99.
On the chopping block are:
I most miss Vedalken Shackles, but it hurts playing that on Turn 3. Cursed Totem is my newest test. I have a hard time with Elf-type decks since they can actually play most or all of the spells I'm letting them draw. (I frown upon this). If it doesn't work as expected, it will be cut for the return of Shackles.
One card I'm testing out now: Diminish. I've been thinking about some removal, like Psionic Blast, but it's kind of costly at 2U. There are a number of games where someone is attacking into my Kami, and this would turn it into a deadly blocker. The new Turn to Frog is a possibility as well, or Ovinize, but I assume the ability loss is less useful since most troublesome abilities can just be used in response. Also somewhat interesting is Polymorphist's Jest is super interesting, allowing an easy way to block-and-kill some troublesome commanders like Narset or Geist.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/571235-time-walk#mono
My list is that:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kami-of-the-crescent-lock/