Necrotic Ooze/Kiki jiki based combos require the exact same amount of components as Project X.
Also, people should stop talking about Kiki-Jiki based combos, in my opinion Necrotic Ooze/Devoted Druid/Morselhoarder/Shvan Hellkite is better in every way. Immune to creature removal, does not require haste, better at being assembled with Buried Alive or Survival of the Fittest (you don't need to fetch Hellkite or Anger to go off), less pieces that you dont want to draw into (you dont need to worry about discarding shivan hellkite after you draw it).
Project X is semi reliant on haste (having bear tokens is pretty decent without haste tho), dies to creature removal (I disagree with other posters, this is a HUGE deal), Crypt Champion is a inferior card outside the combo to Necrotic Ooze.
The only advantage Project X has is that Saffi is a decent card.
Deck concept is pretty insane; interesting to see this while I've been pondering changing Karrthus to Scion.
I might incorporate some ideas from this deck, although I wish to maintain the tribal status; I might have a set of cards to switch out for 1v1 and MP.
Even then Trickbind shouldn't be a problem since before you attempt to combo you should definitely flashback your Cabal Therapy naming it or some other relevant Split Second card provided you have an extra creature to pitch.
One more thing regarding your combo choice: it can be stopped by ability counters. If you use the Necrotic Ooze/Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Devoted Druid combo, the only ability counter that can be an issue is Trickbind, but even if the opponent trickbinds the Ooze, you can use it next turn. I know they are not really played in EDH, I mention this only because I do play them in some decks :).
Instead of Devoted Druid/Kiki-Jiki you could use Teardrop Kami/Kiki-Jiki. I don't know if Devoted Druid is there because it's better for the deck, but Teardrop Kami is equally functional. (you make a billion guys, sac half to untap the other half) It seems that Necrotic Ooze is a REALLY broken card...I've never considered just how good this little guy is. You could also use Bitter Ordeal/Recoup as a win-con if someone can prevent the combat damage.
And on a side note, this is one of the most beautiful decks i've ever seen. Kudos to whoever posted the original list.
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@Emether:
I think the best combo for this deck is the one Narglfrob plays in the tourney. It freaked me out first (not just a bit), because once Dread Return resolves, he only has to pass priority after infinite damage is on the stack, and it costs only one more deck slot.
Btw I think the list in this thread hasn't been updated in a while (for example Zenith is a kinda' obvious addition imo).
I just got done proxying the deck up and goldfishing it, it's pretty ridiculous how consistently fast it is. I like the kill a lot, not passing priority is huge.
I will post some insights into how I play the deck and card choices after the current MTG Salvation tournament. I don't want to give away all my tricks just yet.
@Moondust
You do not have to pass priority to add the -1-1 counters since it is part of the cost of Heritage Druid's ability, likewise Moarselhoarders ability is a "mana ability" and thus does not use the stack.
I'd definitely recommend testing with Narglfrob's or Moondust's list, not the one in the OP. They've developed it a little farther. Currently, I think I prefer Moondust's list just by eyeballing them, but I haven't tested either one.
I'm planning on updating the OP once Narglfrob is out of the tournament and posts his report, especially if he communicates with Moondust and they can come up with a composite list or a coherent debate on the disputed slots. There's definitely some neat tech in both lists.
I'm willing to concede that the Ooze kill is probably better than the Project-X kill at this point (though I would still include Anger). Although, I don't see either how the Ooze kill wins without passing priority. You can generate infinite mana that way, since Devoted Druid and Morselhoarder are both mana abilities, but you still have to pass priority to actually use that mana, so Trickbind, Sudden Death, and so on can still stop the combo.
Although, I don't see either how the Ooze kill wins without passing priority. You can generate infinite mana that way, since Devoted Druid and Morselhoarder are both mana abilities, but you still have to pass priority to actually use that mana, so Trickbind, Sudden Death, and so on can still stop the combo.
You can just respond to a Necrotic Ooze "Shivan Hellkite" activation with ... another Shivan Hellkite activation if you request priority before the first Shivan Hellkite activation.
It's the same thing as requesting priority before you play Ill-Gotten Gains, cast Ill-Gotten Gains, and use Lion's Eye Diamond to discard your hand and add three mana to your mana pool before the IGG resolves (even though the LED is a mana ability, it doesn't have anything to do with this, it's the requesting of priority that allows you to break the LED in response to the spell).
I'm not sure I follow your example. It doesn't seem relevant; that interaction has nothing special to do with priority, it's just responding to a spell. I believe there's a window for an opponent to respond to IGG before you have priority to sacrifice LED, but it's meaningless in every situation I can think of (since you can always respond to your opponent's action, and LED as a mana ability can't be further responded to).
In this case, yes, you can respond to a "Shivan Hellkite" activation with another activation, but the point is that, as far as I know, the opponent has priority to respond to that activation before you do, and only then do you get to respond. So you do have to pass priority. I might be wrong, but I've always understood the rules to work this way. I'd like to see the rule you're referring to.
I'm not sure I follow your example. It doesn't seem relevant; that interaction has nothing special to do with priority, it's just responding to a spell. I believe there's a window for an opponent to respond to IGG before you have priority to sacrifice LED, but it's meaningless in every situation I can think of (since you can always respond to your opponent's action, and LED as a mana ability can't be further responded to).
In this case, yes, you can respond to a "Shivan Hellkite" activation with another activation, but the point is that, as far as I know, the opponent has priority to respond to that activation before you do, and only then do you get to respond. So you do have to pass priority. I might be wrong, but I've always understood the rules to work this way. I'd like to see the rule you're referring to.
If your opponent gained priority before you had a chance to activate Lion's Eye Diamond, and passed priority back (i.e. chose not to counterspell or do anything), your spell would immediately resolve as there was a double pass and you would never have a window to break Lion's Eye Diamond.
When casting spells or activating abilities, it works like this:
Active Player = AP
Non-Active Player = NAP
AP casts Ill-Gotten Gains without requesting priority
NAP can then choose to cast instants or activate abilities, NAP passes priority
Ill-Gotten Gains resolves without the chance to break LED
If the AP requests priority before casting a spell or activating an ability, he must cast a spell or activate an ability.
Quote from Magic Floor Rules section 122 »
A player may not request priority and take no action with it.
It does NOT work like this:
AP casts Ill-Gotten Gains
NAP immediately has priority and passes priority back
AP gains priority and can choose to break LED, AP chooses not to
NAP gains priority and passes priority back AGAIN
Ill-Gotten Gains resolves without LED breaking
--------
If the active player wishes to break LED while Ill-Gotten Gains is on the stack, he must request priority immediately prior to casting IGG or while casting it without passing priority to his opponent (if his opponent decides to pass back priority, i.e. no counterspell, he will not be able to break the LED with extra information).
You can request priority before each of your Necrotic Ooze activations by simply saying something like "I'm going to request priority before each Necrotic Ooze activation so you will not have priority until I have activated Necrotic Ooze 300,000 times."
They will gain priority before they die (with 100,000 Shivan Hellkite triggers on the stack or whatever), so they can Sudden Death your Necrotic Ooze and then cast Time Stop to survive.
115.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
This rule is not the correct one to quote, as this has to do with spell and ability resolution.
A spell/ability resolving is different from who gets priority after casting a spell or playing an ability. Normally, priority is passed after casting or playing an ability (due to shortcuts), unless the active player requests priority.
Giving priority to your opponent leaves him only one window : split second spells. Since a normal spell can be responded to by launching the combo again, only a split second spell can break the combo. Trickbind prevents your Ooze from copying itself or from untapping. Once this is done, you can say "go", and launch the combo again at your opponent's turn. The same is true for Sudden Spoiling, which is not played anyways. Only Sudden Death is problematic.
If your opponent does not receive priority until you put 100,000 Necrotic Ooze "Shivan Hellkite" triggers on the stack, he will not be able to Trickbind your Necrotic Ooze to stop the 100,000 triggers from going on the stack.
Once they are on the stack and your opponent receives priority, he can Trickbind one of your Necrotic Ooze activations, but the other 99,999 will still be on the stack.
Your opponent will need to Trickbind + Time Stop (or some other card that removes all abilities from the stack), Sudden Death + Time Stop effect to survive.
First, Khymera you are saying you would still include Anger. Personally, I am wondering why you would possibly cut Anger. Kiki-Jiki has haste, sure, but haste is a static ability and Necrotic Ooze does not copy static abilities. I don't see how the combo could work without Anger : you can't tap Necrotic Ooze for mana without haste.
Second, is Morselhoarder / Devoted Druid / Shivan Hellkite combo better than Kiki-Jiki / Devoted Druid combo ?
The Morselhoarder Combo does not require haste (no use of tap abilities, you only use Devoted Druids untap ability) and thus does not require Anger, nor does it require a Mountain in play to go off (the deal breaker for me).
That is why you can, and I did, cut Anger. He is a strong card tho, and I am not sure cutting him was the right call.
EDIT: More importantly than anything below, I was able to take out a table of four v. one in a game of Archenemy tonight. It was quite wonderful.
I've been playing this deck in real life for a few days now, and here are my comments:
Is Yawgmoth's Will on the MTGS banned list? It + Recoup give you a whole bunch of other ways to win in here. You have infinite mana and can play anything in your deck. An opening hand Leyline of Anticipation is the only thing needed to push that over the top. Makes it so that you can also use Elixir of Immortality
Also, since you're making infinite mana anyway, why is Shivan Hellkite better than Spikeshot Elder? Spikeshot can kill himself to get dumped into the graveyard if he's in you're opener post-mulligan, and can just be played to block, or can be played for 1 red after you Dread Return Necrotic Ooze so that you can still go off. (Since Necrotic doesn't need to have Spikeshot's ability, Spikeshot works just fine) I feel like he's just the better play there.
Morselhoarder + Devoted Druid is the better combo IMO. Doesn't require Haste, which is huge, and you don't have to play Anger. (which, other than the mountain, isn't a big deal. Making sure you have that mountain first turn is really annoying though when you don't need red at all on your first turns otherwise. It streamlines the mana base a lot more)
And again, I LOVE this deck. Props to everyone who's helped make it. If anyone wants my list, just ask.
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Buried Alive is mostly the reason I chose Hellkite, since you can grab Ooze + Druid + Morselhoader, reanimate the Ooze, get infinite mana, and tutor for Hellkite with the general.
I know bridge from below was mentioned on the first page, but cutting caller for it allows you to play flame-kin zealot instead of anger (for those who still run anger in their decks) negating the need for a mountain. And as was stated before bridge allows the play of Therapy more easily by eliminating the need for Fatestitcher in the deck (I think) which potentially frees up an extra mana for the flashback spells you may need to cast before going off and it opens up another slot in the deck. Yes bridge is a terrible card to draw but will that happen more often than needing a mountain? I apologize if you guys think this is a bad suggestion. I didn't think it would hurt to throw the idea out there.
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Wow everyone in this thread already realizes this decks power so I won't touch on that.
I made this deck on mws yesterday and have been gold fishing, playing and tweaking all day.
Genesis just does not do it for me at all, what is your main target for it? I always seem to have something I would rather spend the three manna on...
Genesis seems too slow to be of any use to me. Sure, it protects after a counterspell, but there are other, easier and less mana costly ways of doing the same thing.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Yep, the deck is pretty busted. I tested Narglfrob's list a bit last week and went 9-1 against Adun, 9-1 against Sygg, 9-1 against Iname, 3-0 against Teeg. Those are some of the best decks in the format. (Hurry up and win the tournament already Narglfrob so you can tell us about it.)
Also, I was playing a few games with Hunter245 last night and he said that he'd heard of a 50-player 1v1 EDH tournament in Wisconsin where the top 8 included 4 Hermit Druid decks. If that's true, then the deck is catching on and is exhibiting Clique-like dominance. I would not be surprised at all if Hermit Druid winds up banned in the next adjustment of the 1v1 banned list, so you folks might want to hold off on purchasing the cards for a while. I think Narglfrob still believes Hermit Druid should be banned too, and he should know at this point.
Not sure if anyone else caught this, but on the other Commander forum, Sheldon says
Don't know how he came to the conclusion of "nowhere near bannable", but I expect he'll change his mine once "the format is warped," heh.
Kind of off topic but I hope they don't ban it on the official banlist. Hermit Druid is a fun card in casual decks.
Quote from Moondust »
Angry Hermit has a hard time vs Ux control. And Khymera, I don't think you tried vs the best decks of the format. Just try vs Zur, Arcum, Grand Arbiter, Wydven and then we may say smth about Hermit Druid.
PS: I'm glad Clique is legal in France, thanks to that, hermit won't be banned in France anytime soon I guess.
Challenge accepted. I troll the Cockatrice MTG room fairly consistently and would love to do test matches either against or as these decks. Anyone feel free to pm me on cockatrice.
And just so I am clear, having a hard time vs Ux control is no reason to leave Hermit Druid unbanned. It still polarizes the format to an unhealthy degree.
Necrotic Ooze/Kiki jiki based combos require the exact same amount of components as Project X.
Also, people should stop talking about Kiki-Jiki based combos, in my opinion Necrotic Ooze/Devoted Druid/Morselhoarder/Shvan Hellkite is better in every way. Immune to creature removal, does not require haste, better at being assembled with Buried Alive or Survival of the Fittest (you don't need to fetch Hellkite or Anger to go off), less pieces that you dont want to draw into (you dont need to worry about discarding shivan hellkite after you draw it).
Project X is semi reliant on haste (having bear tokens is pretty decent without haste tho), dies to creature removal (I disagree with other posters, this is a HUGE deal), Crypt Champion is a inferior card outside the combo to Necrotic Ooze.
The only advantage Project X has is that Saffi is a decent card.
I might incorporate some ideas from this deck, although I wish to maintain the tribal status; I might have a set of cards to switch out for 1v1 and MP.
(Multiplayer)
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
WUBSharuum the Hegemon
(American 1v1)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking Grave
WUGDerevi
gg's on Cockatrice
My Current EDH Decks
WUBRG Lorwyn Block Horde of Notions WUBRG
UG Momir Vig Glimpse Combo UG
UW "Rasputin Dreamcrusher" Control UW
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Instead of Devoted Druid/Kiki-Jiki you could use Teardrop Kami/Kiki-Jiki. I don't know if Devoted Druid is there because it's better for the deck, but Teardrop Kami is equally functional. (you make a billion guys, sac half to untap the other half) It seems that Necrotic Ooze is a REALLY broken card...I've never considered just how good this little guy is. You could also use Bitter Ordeal/Recoup as a win-con if someone can prevent the combat damage.
And on a side note, this is one of the most beautiful decks i've ever seen. Kudos to whoever posted the original list.
I just got done proxying the deck up and goldfishing it, it's pretty ridiculous how consistently fast it is. I like the kill a lot, not passing priority is huge.
@Moondust
You do not have to pass priority to add the -1-1 counters since it is part of the cost of Heritage Druid's ability, likewise Moarselhoarders ability is a "mana ability" and thus does not use the stack.
I'm planning on updating the OP once Narglfrob is out of the tournament and posts his report, especially if he communicates with Moondust and they can come up with a composite list or a coherent debate on the disputed slots. There's definitely some neat tech in both lists.
I'm willing to concede that the Ooze kill is probably better than the Project-X kill at this point (though I would still include Anger). Although, I don't see either how the Ooze kill wins without passing priority. You can generate infinite mana that way, since Devoted Druid and Morselhoarder are both mana abilities, but you still have to pass priority to actually use that mana, so Trickbind, Sudden Death, and so on can still stop the combo.
You can just respond to a Necrotic Ooze "Shivan Hellkite" activation with ... another Shivan Hellkite activation if you request priority before the first Shivan Hellkite activation.
It's the same thing as requesting priority before you play Ill-Gotten Gains, cast Ill-Gotten Gains, and use Lion's Eye Diamond to discard your hand and add three mana to your mana pool before the IGG resolves (even though the LED is a mana ability, it doesn't have anything to do with this, it's the requesting of priority that allows you to break the LED in response to the spell).
In this case, yes, you can respond to a "Shivan Hellkite" activation with another activation, but the point is that, as far as I know, the opponent has priority to respond to that activation before you do, and only then do you get to respond. So you do have to pass priority. I might be wrong, but I've always understood the rules to work this way. I'd like to see the rule you're referring to.
If your opponent gained priority before you had a chance to activate Lion's Eye Diamond, and passed priority back (i.e. chose not to counterspell or do anything), your spell would immediately resolve as there was a double pass and you would never have a window to break Lion's Eye Diamond.
When casting spells or activating abilities, it works like this:
Active Player = AP
Non-Active Player = NAP
AP casts Ill-Gotten Gains without requesting priority
NAP can then choose to cast instants or activate abilities, NAP passes priority
Ill-Gotten Gains resolves without the chance to break LED
If the AP requests priority before casting a spell or activating an ability, he must cast a spell or activate an ability.
It does NOT work like this:
AP casts Ill-Gotten Gains
NAP immediately has priority and passes priority back
AP gains priority and can choose to break LED, AP chooses not to
NAP gains priority and passes priority back AGAIN
Ill-Gotten Gains resolves without LED breaking
--------
If the active player wishes to break LED while Ill-Gotten Gains is on the stack, he must request priority immediately prior to casting IGG or while casting it without passing priority to his opponent (if his opponent decides to pass back priority, i.e. no counterspell, he will not be able to break the LED with extra information).
You can request priority before each of your Necrotic Ooze activations by simply saying something like "I'm going to request priority before each Necrotic Ooze activation so you will not have priority until I have activated Necrotic Ooze 300,000 times."
They will gain priority before they die (with 100,000 Shivan Hellkite triggers on the stack or whatever), so they can Sudden Death your Necrotic Ooze and then cast Time Stop to survive.
This rule is not the correct one to quote, as this has to do with spell and ability resolution.
A spell/ability resolving is different from who gets priority after casting a spell or playing an ability. Normally, priority is passed after casting or playing an ability (due to shortcuts), unless the active player requests priority.
If your opponent does not receive priority until you put 100,000 Necrotic Ooze "Shivan Hellkite" triggers on the stack, he will not be able to Trickbind your Necrotic Ooze to stop the 100,000 triggers from going on the stack.
Once they are on the stack and your opponent receives priority, he can Trickbind one of your Necrotic Ooze activations, but the other 99,999 will still be on the stack.
Your opponent will need to Trickbind + Time Stop (or some other card that removes all abilities from the stack), Sudden Death + Time Stop effect to survive.
The Morselhoarder Combo does not require haste (no use of tap abilities, you only use Devoted Druids untap ability) and thus does not require Anger, nor does it require a Mountain in play to go off (the deal breaker for me).
That is why you can, and I did, cut Anger. He is a strong card tho, and I am not sure cutting him was the right call.
I've been playing this deck in real life for a few days now, and here are my comments:
Is Yawgmoth's Will on the MTGS banned list? It + Recoup give you a whole bunch of other ways to win in here. You have infinite mana and can play anything in your deck. An opening hand Leyline of Anticipation is the only thing needed to push that over the top. Makes it so that you can also use Elixir of Immortality
Also, since you're making infinite mana anyway, why is Shivan Hellkite better than Spikeshot Elder? Spikeshot can kill himself to get dumped into the graveyard if he's in you're opener post-mulligan, and can just be played to block, or can be played for 1 red after you Dread Return Necrotic Ooze so that you can still go off. (Since Necrotic doesn't need to have Spikeshot's ability, Spikeshot works just fine) I feel like he's just the better play there.
Morselhoarder + Devoted Druid is the better combo IMO. Doesn't require Haste, which is huge, and you don't have to play Anger. (which, other than the mountain, isn't a big deal. Making sure you have that mountain first turn is really annoying though when you don't need red at all on your first turns otherwise. It streamlines the mana base a lot more)
And again, I LOVE this deck. Props to everyone who's helped make it. If anyone wants my list, just ask.
I made this deck on mws yesterday and have been gold fishing, playing and tweaking all day.
Genesis just does not do it for me at all, what is your main target for it? I always seem to have something I would rather spend the three manna on...
there are a few mentions of a lock with life from the loan... is that just Tranquil Thicket and strip mine because I don't consider that a lock...
this is only relevent versus very slow decks and i could imagine cutting it.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Also, I was playing a few games with Hunter245 last night and he said that he'd heard of a 50-player 1v1 EDH tournament in Wisconsin where the top 8 included 4 Hermit Druid decks. If that's true, then the deck is catching on and is exhibiting Clique-like dominance. I would not be surprised at all if Hermit Druid winds up banned in the next adjustment of the 1v1 banned list, so you folks might want to hold off on purchasing the cards for a while. I think Narglfrob still believes Hermit Druid should be banned too, and he should know at this point.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Don't know how he came to the conclusion of "nowhere near bannable", but I expect he'll change his mine once "the format is warped," heh.
twitter.com/bccarlso
Kind of off topic but I hope they don't ban it on the official banlist. Hermit Druid is a fun card in casual decks.
Challenge accepted. I troll the Cockatrice MTG room fairly consistently and would love to do test matches either against or as these decks. Anyone feel free to pm me on cockatrice.
And just so I am clear, having a hard time vs Ux control is no reason to leave Hermit Druid unbanned. It still polarizes the format to an unhealthy degree.
Well actually, there is blue in the deck.