MTG Salvation

sorry if this has been answered, but what if some one forces you to draw after activating druid.

Quote from SpiderWaffle

Interesting thing I just discovered today, with Hermit Druid, you get to choose the exact order your cards go to your graveyard.

So I was thinking maybe cards like nether shadow could be useful. nether shadow isn't because you can't cast dread return until your main phase, meaning you have to get past your draw, which means you have to flashback memories journey so your not saving any mana. Maybe if there's something you can put into your library for free that also has other utility.

I was thinking maybe there's some other card that requires some specific graveyard ordering, that could be useful.

Nether Shadow won't trigger if you use Hermit Druid to put it into your graveyard at the beginning of your upkeep. Nether Shadow would have needed to have been put into your graveyard with 3 creatures above it before the turn started.

is this thread still active? id so i have an interesting if slot consuming ooze combo. its pretty bad but it lets you kill your opponents 4 different ways. it uses:
-ooze
-thornling
-devoted druid
-quillspike
-birds of paradise
-lich lord of unx
it allows you to make:
-infinite mana
-an infinite/infinite trampler
-infinite 1/1s
-infinite loss of life
-infinite mill

well thats my 2 pence.

ps. can anyone tell me how to make my text into card links?

I didn't see anything for this deck from M13, did anyone else?

Quote from Jester831

Nether Shadow won't trigger if you use Hermit Druid to put it into your graveyard at the beginning of your upkeep. Nether Shadow would have needed to have been put into your graveyard with 3 creatures above it before the turn started.

you would use hermit druid during your untap phase, after untapping, before your upkeep, the turn after he comes into play.

It's very viable

Well that's a shame :(, also nether shadow getting errataed to be at the beginning of upkeep instead of end. I thought they decided against erratas like this, what's the reasoning? It seems capricious and arbitrary what they change with erratas.

I dont know if its been mentioned in here but if youre running the necrotic ooze, morselhoarder, devoted druid combo, I think the best wincon then to use is orzhov guildmage. Just net as much mana as needed, gain a bunch of life, then make everybody lose life to win. I do it in my modern dredge and its unstoppable.

Quote from daemonishere

I dont know if its been mentioned in here but if youre running the necrotic ooze, morselhoarder, devoted druid combo, I think the best wincon then to use is orzhov guildmage. Just net as much mana as needed, gain a bunch of life, then make everybody lose life to win. I do it in my modern dredge and its unstoppable.

Pointless. Guildmage can't be tutored for by the general, which possibly makes it more difficult to combo in certain scenarios

Furthermore, it's irrelevant how much life you gain/make others lose once you go off, it's infinite damage on the stack to whatever you want. Why bother with lifegain?

There's a post by Kuma on thesource showing an alternate wincon which might be considered:

You put your entire library into your graveyard just like before. Dread Return Angel of Glory's Rise returning Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Laboratory Maniac to the battlefield (you also get back Sylvan Safekeeper, Hermit Druid, and Imperial Recruiter as well). Tap either Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Laboratory Maniac, or Sylvan Safekeeper to win the game.

Pros:

- It takes up one less card slot in the deck.
- It can win through some cards that Shivan Hellkite couldn't, e.g. Energy Field, Solitary Confinement, and Leyline of Sanctity.
- Two of the win conditions are blue and can be pitched to Force of Will and Misdirection in a dire emergency.
- Scion of the Ur-Dragon can be switched to something more useful, perhaps Child of Alara or a yet unprinted card.

Cons:

- Split second cards like Wipe Away and Trickbind can now interact with the deck post-Dread Return.
- Stifle on Angel of Glory's Rise's trigger is super awkward.
- Buried Alive is no longer an option. This is both good and bad, as I'd never actually needed to use Buried Alive switching kills frees up another slot in the deck.

- Devoted Druid
- Morselhoarder
- Necrotic Ooze
- Shivan Hellkite
- Buried Alive

+ Angel of Glory's Rise
+ Azami, Lady of Scrolls
+ Laboratory Maniac
+ Personal Tutor
+ Maelstrom Pulse


What do you guys think? I think not having to run scion is pretty huge since everybody assumes combo when you use it as the general

Quote from Dresden

There's a post by Kuma on thesource showing an alternate wincon which might be considered:

You put your entire library into your graveyard just like before. Dread Return Angel of Glory's Rise returning Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Laboratory Maniac to the battlefield (you also get back Sylvan Safekeeper, Hermit Druid, and Imperial Recruiter as well). Tap either Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Laboratory Maniac, or Sylvan Safekeeper to win the game.

Pros:

- It takes up one less card slot in the deck.
- It can win through some cards that Shivan Hellkite couldn't, e.g. Energy Field, Solitary Confinement, and Leyline of Sanctity.
- Two of the win conditions are blue and can be pitched to Force of Will and Misdirection in a dire emergency.
- Scion of the Ur-Dragon can be switched to something more useful, perhaps Child of Alara or a yet unprinted card.

Cons:

- Split second cards like Wipe Away and Trickbind can now interact with the deck post-Dread Return.
- Stifle on Angel of Glory's Rise's trigger is super awkward.
- Buried Alive is no longer an option. This is both good and bad, as I'd never actually needed to use Buried Alive switching kills frees up another slot in the deck.

- Devoted Druid
- Morselhoarder
- Necrotic Ooze
- Shivan Hellkite
- Buried Alive

+ Angel of Glory's Rise
+ Azami, Lady of Scrolls
+ Laboratory Maniac
+ Personal Tutor
+ Maelstrom Pulse


What do you guys think? I think not having to run scion is pretty huge since everybody assumes combo when you use it as the general

Definitely not. The best secondary combo-engine we have is shut off by this, and is disrupt-able by too many removal spells now. I'd rather have a working win-con in Survival than something cute like Azami/Maniac, which only works off of Hermit Druid's mill.

The cards that Shivan can't get through are all stopped by the same Hermit Druid activation, namely Ray of Revelation.

Pitching your win-con to Force or Misdirection rather defeats the purpose of having a win-con in the first place, how do you intend to win without your win other than Plan B Bolas/Tyrant?

Scion is superior to child in that it can tutor for both your kill and a solid plan B that takes up less overall slots than anything else. You'd be foolish not to run Scion.

Buried Alive is too useful to cut, personal tutor is slow, though a decent option. Maelstrom Pulse is costly and likely unnecessary.

Keep the Morselhorder combo in, don't try to get cute with Azami and Maniac.

How great are buried alive and survival of the fittest though? For 99% of cases these two cards are the only reasons to use scion and shivan hellkite, no? I've found them to be slow and require more specific scenarios and other cards, such as reanimaters for buried alive.

However, they are little harder to disrupt, impervious to creature removal.

I've found it's better to play for speed with as much efficient and effective disruption and mana ramp/gain as possible to stop the few threats to your win condition they have and get the combo out a little quicker. Things that take more than 3 mana total usually give them enough time to drop a magus of the moon, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, or other land/mana kill/control, or permanent that stalls you long enough for them to get control and ramp/power out, or find their best answer(s) to your deck.


turn 1 tutor, turn 2 druid, turn 3 win
or
turn 1 disruption, turn 2 tutor, turn 3 druid and disruption/protection, turn 4 win
or
turn 1 mana ramp, turn 2 tutor and disruption, turn 3 druid and stuff ect.., turn 4 win

odds of winning dramatically went down after turn 5, messing around with 3CC removal and stuff like beast within and qusal pridemage just didn't seem to yield the results I wanted compared too more ramp/mana gain and tutors to win before they play the stuff you need to remove. 4/5 mana and 2 cards to get win condition (buried alive) wasn't my favorite, or 1 2CC card, creature in hand, plus 2GGGBB (survival of the fittest) was total yuck. T1 personal tutor, T2 demonic tutor or vampric tutor and disruption, T3 hermit druid, T4 win was much better.


I still don't know any great answers to magus of the moon and gilded drake, gilded drake was by far the best answer to gilded drake I ever found, it's such a ridiculous card in this format it is the best counter to itself.

I haven't really been a fan of Cabal Therapy. Flashing it back is hard, you need a creature for that, and you need a creature for dread return. Perhaps Cephalid Illusionist would fit more nicely. It is also a nice alternative route to Hermit Druid.

Also, can you change your deck a little so that it reads Rise // Fall rather than Rise/Fall? This way when I keep forgetting what it does the link goes somewhere

Hmm, good point. I haven't actually played the deck yet, was considering giving it a try sometime soon. I figured flashing back would be hard, as each creature would be important, but it does also work as a sac outlet as Leroy mentioned. You also mentioned having an abundance of creatures, which seems difficult.

I am a bit worried on losing the druid, as right now (with no actual testing) it looks very hard to even swing with Scion of the Ur-Dragon successfully, let alone actually getting him in play. You mentioned they may tap out trying to prevent the combo, which I can see, but if you get Scion in play, with maybe a Mother as backup, they still get to untap on their turn, and will most likely have 5 mana, which is enough for a mass removal, or some other form of being upset. Then again, if Scion gets put into the graveyard, maybe that is okay. Would he work better there or in the commander zone? I am sure this depends on what you have. The scarier thing is that he can get stuck in your deck with things like Bant Charm, and if you were trying for combo before, then your tutor may be low. Anyway, seeing as you have done some testing, and it has worked out alright, this is a bit reassuring.

The only reason I mentioned Cabal Therapy is because I have never played with it, nor against it. So, bad reasoning I know.

Random side note: (I know this isn't what the deck is for) Seeing as this uses the multiplayer rules, but is meant for 1v1, how do you think this would fare in a multiplayer game? Discard becomes less useful, and Telepathy could become surprisingly useful; not sure I would actually run it, but would consider it. Then again, if seldom people are playing blue, then perhaps you could just focus the discard on them.

Edit: Are you familiar with the Maralen of the Mornsong deck? In reality, the general doesn't matter much, it is going for play Ad Nauseam and win. It was a similar concept of fast combo/win. I feel as though this deck is a lot more stable and consistent The reason I bring it up is for the second game. I played this deck a bit for fun, I probably never mastered it, but I wasn't the biggest fan and just moved on. The biggest problem I had with it was the second game. The first game, they often didn't know what I was doing, and things worked out great; however by the second they would aggressively mulligan against it and often forget about winning until I was dead in the water. It didn't really have a backup strategy, and was mono black so coming back from certain things was very difficult. I just fear that the same concept applies. A friend of mine has a Rafiq of the Many deck, I mention this because bant has a pretty good system for removal, Bant Charm included. I can just see an agressive mulliganing strategy being somewhat devastating. Have you run into many of these issues?

Another edit: Hmm I am actually a bit surprised that Think Twice isn't in here. This could, given enough mana, allow you to try again if your Dread Return was countered. Can Memory's Journey -> Unearth, Reanimate and Postmortem Lunge (as you said, with Reanimate on top) -> Think Twice -> Play Reanimate try again. Costs 2UGB and you get a second shot on the same turn.

How would this deck handle Rest in Peace?

Quote from asimov

I made some games with your list.

1- I had a piece of the combo in hand and Entomb, i was looking for a way to discard it. I played Entomb and i did not find Faithless Looting :/ Why?

2- My opponent had Linvala on the table i had Muddle the Mixture in hand, i was hoping to transmut it but i did not find any answer, no terminate, no ..., Why?

3- No bloodghast?

I've run into these same problems using this list - it's missing some fairly basic answers, by my view, but is clearly built around your own playstyle firstly.

Why no Feldon's Cane?

With a new ftv coming out its time to dust this deck off for it's annual win. Any recent updates?

I have posted a list that i feel has been better optimized for 4 man pods here

its predominantly blue and better prepared to fend off threats when you do not know which of your 3 opponents to expect them from.

Heya Apple, welcome to the forums Saw your post on thesource, congrats on your tourney win. I looked at the blue-based list you and LegacyStudent played but I think the mana curve is a bit high and not sure if there's so much acceleration needed (sol ring, mana crypt etc. aren't really useful imho for this deck because you only need a max of 3 mana to operate, often it's just 2 so the games should end very early)

Quote from Dresden

Heya Apple, welcome to the forums Saw your post on thesource, congrats on your tourney win. I looked at the blue-based list you and LegacyStudent played but I think the mana curve is a bit high and not sure if there's so much acceleration needed (sol ring, mana crypt etc. aren't really useful imho for this deck because you only need a max of 3 mana to operate, often it's just 2 so the games should end very early)

while the additional mana sources might be able to be cut they really come in handy when the game goes past t3.

I'm not sure if i included it in my report but there was a game where lodestone golem came out after my hermit druid was RFG. I ended up having a noble heirarch and a sol ring that really helped me find pull from eternity and reanimate hermit druid. During those turns i was searching for answers my lands were destroyed by terrastadon so my sol ring and noble really helped me out. Id say in a vacuum you are right, but the game doesn't always last 3 turns.

Id say that if you need to add cards to the deck you can cut a street wraith / gitaxian probe / gilded drake / mana sources.

I think games should end by T3/T4 at the latest or you're stuck in mostly an irrecoverable position so I'm not as concerned about having mana sources as I am about increasing answers/threats to end the game early. I read the report on your facing terastadon but that's part of the way I'd play this deck - end the game early, under no circumstances should cards with that much CMC ever become a factor, with all the reanimation routes to win. It's pretty important to end early as well because once the game gets to 4cmc+, there's a variety of non-targeted ways to kill your druid so that blanks a lot of protection.

I would like to have room to add cards to the deck in the non-blue version but I have problems struggling for space even for gprobe, which I would like to have. Anyway, I guess it depends on what type of meta you play this deck in, it's probably not suited for any non-competitive setting

it isn't a "fun" deck to play and doesn't lead to interesting board states. Its strictly competitive in my opinion.

What cards do you wish you could add?

I think it's a pretty fun deck if everybody else has a competitive deck too Usually leads to interesting states for you where you try not to die with a decked library, hehe. Regarding cards to add, mm I had stony silence in there in a previous version, that'd be nice to have back or gprobe too, stuff like that.

Is Cruel Tutor too slow for this deck?

Hey any updates? Or any one with a good list?

Hey Guys, I am new to this thread and am entering a new competitive edh scene soon and have no Idea what the meta will be like, I am borrowing the cards off of a friend who has a very large collection and all the lands, Imperial seal etc and I was wondering if any of you guys could post an updated decklist that is fairly resilient but can also pull off a turn three combo most of the time.
Thanks.

Edit: I already have the cards for the list in the first post and so just need a list of additions and removals.
Thanks again.