Usually there's a whole "wait until its played for a bit" period for cards, but the issues with Urza can be seen a mile away and honestly, most of said issues are just better executions of things that exist now.
1) He's both an enabler AND an outlet for what he enables.
Not only does Urza have the ability to turn utility artifacts and colorless ramp artifacts you were going to use anyway into untapped and likely cheaper Sky Diamonds, he also provides an outlet for generating the insane and/or infinite mana you are going to chase when building him. You can next to ignore the first ability of putting an artifact into play, but if that ends up being your only untapped artifact upon resolving Urza, thats still a Swan Song or other instant represented.
I've seen some comparisons to other outlets in blue, along with Thrasios and Tasigur. Neither of these cards enables itself however, or at least in Thrasios' case it does not provide untapped mana unassisted when using that activated ability. Whilst it is true that going mono blue restricts access to tutors and other effects, lets not be coy; that didn't exactly stop Teferi now did it? Speaking of...
2) He's a faster version of a problem deck that already exists.
Sure, you aren't including the Chain Veil in this list, but there will be a vast amount of crossover with a cheaper Commander and less moving parts to interrupt along the way. Teferi has been out long enough for players to find the intricacies and corner cases I'm sure they'll use to demonstrate how much better he is than Urza, but if its THIS easy to find the obvious plays with Urza, then just think of all the corner case cheap artifacts that'll emerge to deal with the problems this deck would face.
3) It doesn't take any effort at all to break him, short of actively not including the card type he works with.
Even if you were desperate to pursue the casual route, include no infinite combos, build mono blue artifact tokens in a way that leaves Sai crying in the bin of obsolete ideas, you still have an unbelievably easy way to generate advantage on board from a 4 mana commander. If you untap with Urza, that'll be a dinner bell at the casual table. I get the legacy behind this character, I get the appeal of powerful Magic, but this card looks like it packs way too many strikes by itself. Vannifar required a specific chain, utterly ruined if you drew into one part of it, but this guy does not have such a draw back.
Dropping the Chicken Little complex now, but those are the 3 key things I see being an issue to support a banning. I doubt he'll be banned day 1 or receive the emergency treatment Griselbrand did, but Urza is only going to get stronger as time goes on. The thing is, with a baseline THIS good, how long does that last?
He will probably be an incredibly good artifact centric mono blue commander, stating that it doesn't take any effort to break him isn't exactly true in my opinion. To break him you need to include the inf mana engines and a rain of thopters etc. The 5 mana for his ability is also steep enough to not be too detrimental until you get infinite or close to infinite mana.
Basically what I am thinking is that he will probably be incredibly strong but not more busted than many other combo commanders and he isn't actively interrupting every other players gameplay.
I do like how he gets around Stony Silence though.
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Usually there's a whole "wait until its played for a bit" period for cards, but the issues with Urza can be seen a mile away and honestly, most of said issues are just better executions of things that exist now.
1) He's both an enabler AND an outlet for what he enables.
Not only does Urza have the ability to turn utility artifacts and colorless ramp artifacts you were going to use anyway into untapped and likely cheaper Sky Diamonds, he also provides an outlet for generating the insane and/or infinite mana you are going to chase when building him. You can next to ignore the first ability of putting an artifact into play, but if that ends up being your only untapped artifact upon resolving Urza, thats still a Swan Song or other instant represented.
I've seen some comparisons to other outlets in blue, along with Thrasios and Tasigur. Neither of these cards enables itself however, or at least in Thrasios' case it does not provide untapped mana unassisted when using that activated ability. Whilst it is true that going mono blue restricts access to tutors and other effects, lets not be coy; that didn't exactly stop Teferi now did it? Speaking of...
2) He's a faster version of a problem deck that already exists.
Sure, you aren't including the Chain Veil in this list, but there will be a vast amount of crossover with a cheaper Commander and less moving parts to interrupt along the way. Teferi has been out long enough for players to find the intricacies and corner cases I'm sure they'll use to demonstrate how much better he is than Urza, but if its THIS easy to find the obvious plays with Urza, then just think of all the corner case cheap artifacts that'll emerge to deal with the problems this deck would face.
3) It doesn't take any effort at all to break him, short of actively not including the card type he works with.
Even if you were desperate to pursue the casual route, include no infinite combos, build mono blue artifact tokens in a way that leaves Sai crying in the bin of obsolete ideas, you still have an unbelievably easy way to generate advantage on board from a 4 mana commander. If you untap with Urza, that'll be a dinner bell at the casual table. I get the legacy behind this character, I get the appeal of powerful Magic, but this card looks like it packs way too many strikes by itself. Vannifar required a specific chain, utterly ruined if you drew into one part of it, but this guy does not have such a draw back.
Dropping the Chicken Little complex now, but those are the 3 key things I see being an issue to support a banning. I doubt he'll be banned day 1 or receive the emergency treatment Griselbrand did, but Urza is only going to get stronger as time goes on. The thing is, with a baseline THIS good, how long does that last?
I'll step up to the plate and attempt to defend Urza remaining unbanned. I will concede first that he's on a similar power level as Paradox Engine, which is both a great argument for and against Urza being banned; great, because Engine is still unbanned even after several ban announcements and bad because Engine is borderline too powerful for Commander.
Alright, I'll address each of your points.
I 100% agree with your assessment here, but would simply say that his abilities have a significant enough of a downside as to be acceptable by the RC and CAG to allow. Additionally, by removing Urza from play you significantly reduce the amount of mana generation that the player has. He does NOT permanently add mana resources to your board, which WOULD make him broken and worthy of banning. His ability to have any artifact tap for U is conditional on him being in play, which is enough of a drawback to be reasonable since you can tax him out of the game for a significant time period if you point enough removal/counterspells at him. The shuffling aspect of his ability is part of its resolution, ensuring that there is NO possible way to stack your deck as it resolves so you always hit a relevant card. Hitting a land with his ability is significant to his evaluation. I realize that this doesn't detract from your initial point, but tries instead to showcase that this advantage, while incredibly powerful, is conditional on Urza being in play. And as a squishy creature, where the majority of all removal spells have been targeted towards, he can be effectively dealt with.
I think that the comparisons you make between Urza and Teferi are not quite correct, particularly in saying that Urza is a faster version of a deck that already exists. Both lists use the same core Artifact base to accelerate out an early Commander casting, true. Both decks will utilize this Artifact base as part of their primary combo line to win the game in a single turn, true. But Teferi literally and deterministically only needs The Chain Veil, alongside this Artifact core, in order to guarantee that you win the game. He draws your deck AND generates infinite mana with just a single card alongside him, making him extremely powerful and common as a cEDH Commander. Urza needs Paradox Engine and for his ability to hit a statistically significant number of times in order for you to execute a combo line kill under similar conditions to make an effective one card combo compariso;, and, it is importantly NOT deterministic. Hitting a land pocket is a VERY real thing to consider when activating his ability. So while it's VERY likely that you'll win with non-infinite mana (but perhaps a high number of mana producing mana rocks), it's not guaranteed that you DO win. DRamaticScepter requires 2 cards to be available alongside Urza, which (while very powerful and a dominant 2 card combo in the cEDH metagame) is inherently more difficult to assemble.
For your third point, I disagree. As an example, and using EDHrec.com as my guide, I can see that the predominant way to build Memnarch is to build him as an Artifact centric Commander with cool synergies instead of a true Combo/Control shell like my Primer depicts. I simply don't think that this point is relevant enough, for a battlecruiser playgroup specifically, to influence the RC and CAG to ban Urza from the Commander card pool. You can, and many players do, build mono-Blue Artifact Commanders in a themed or battlecruiser style and successfully pilot them to the satisfaction of every player at the table. The beauty of Commander is that it is largely self-regulating because it's contingent on the social contract idea; the rest of your playgroup helps to define what is and what isn't acceptable behavior when it comes both to gameplay and deck construction. This means that many playgroups and stores will permit Urza to be played as a Commander but will actively target and destroy a player who's built their Urza deck optimally but without the consent/approval of the playgroup. Many people hate playing against Stax and will actively target players who employ such a strategy without the support of their playgroup, leading to that player to either adjust their deck so that they aren't targeted, or to choose a different deck/playgroup altogether. Urza represents a unique and highly powerful way to take advantage of that deck-building criteria, but you don't have to butcher a decklist or massively constrain yourself in order to build a battlecruiser or 75% style deck with Urza at the helm, particularly when your playgroup's expectations are part of your deck-building criteria.
I've mentioned this repeatedly now, but Urza is a very powerful card in his own right, and worthy of being on the nebulous "watch-list" that the RC and CAG have. The reason that the Commanders that are currently banned were banned in the first place is because they either limited/diminished your opponent's ability to actually play the game (see Leovold, Erayo, Emrakul, and Braids) or generated TOO much of an advantage that your opponents couldn't overcome (see Rofellos, Griselbrand, and Emrakul) in spite of the decklist that you may have built. Urza is a massively powerful Commander in his own right, but he can still be interacted with and will only be truly abused by the cEDH subset of players that exist. Ultimately, I agree with HugSeal's second point that he doesn't actively interrupt every other player's gameplay.
A final reason that I think he should remain unbanned is simply because of the Commander player's expectations regarding Urza. Urza is by far one of the most iconic characters in all of Magic, and the current presales price of him reflects the many expectations that Commander players have for him; a majority of his price is probably coming from the Commander crowd since I'm almost certain that he won't see Legacy and barely any Modern play. I think that there would be a significant backlash from the Commander community should he get banned because of how legendary Urza actually is in the storyline.
Hopefully my points are coherent and salient and, if the RC and CAG are reading this, strong points to consider before making a decision to ban him.
While definitely strong and I wouldn't be surprised to see a cEDH build for him, I think he requires too many parts to go infinite to be worth banning.
I reject the idea of the lore behind Urza being any sort of reason to keep him legal, because for one that doesn't matter one whit when it comes to game play, and for two this exact reason doesn't seem to sway planeswalkers being legal.
Urza doesn't look to be any bigger issue than Thrasios, Triton Hero. They both turn infinite mana into drawing / playing your deck. I don't really see how Urza could suddenly be a problem but Thrasios isn't. I am not saying that these are healthy but Urza really seems like a reskin of Thrasios with a slight tweak in how he functions.
Thrasios is probably actually stronger due to being in green for tutors and ramp.
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Won't be banned.
This doesn't hit any of the boxes for cards that were banned in the last few years.
Leovold was closest, but he was banned because of how easy it was to throw in a bunch of windfalls and lock people out of the game. Him being an infinite mana sink is not enough to get him banned. Most people do not play infinite mana combos. He is not being banned for 1 or 2 activations per turn.
The only risk is if everyone builds him with Static orb, Winter Orb and friends. If everyone is playing Urza stax then he will be banned.
I just have a hard time believing that this is what the majority of players will do.
Won't be banned.
This doesn't hit any of the boxes for cards that were banned in the last few years.
Leovold was closest, but he was banned because of how easy it was to throw in a bunch of windfalls and lock people out of the game. Him being an infinite mana sink is not enough to get him banned. Most people do not play infinite mana combos. He is not being banned for 1 or 2 activations per turn.
The only risk is if everyone builds him with Static orb, Winter Orb and friends. If everyone is playing Urza stax then he will be banned.
I just have a hard time believing that this is what the majority of players will do.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think he and Arcum Dagsson are actually best friends, since Urza brings along an Artifact creature body for Arcum to Tinker. Yeah, let that sink in for a bit.
I would personally say that Urza is better than Arcum since you don't have to dedicate as many card slots to mediocre Artifact creatures to get your engine going. While Wizards has done a good job at creating Artifact creature token spawning cards recently, there's still a critical mass needed in order for Arcum to be effective. Urza isn't as dependent on having a specific card type in his deck, therefore reducing a significant weakness of Arcum decks. Lastly, Urza doesn't need as many deckslots in order to actually execute his combo; playing Citanul Flute has always felt bad when you're using it to simply tutor for a Memnite or Ornithopter.
I actually don't think he's going to be any worse than optimized Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain decks. Both become extremely powerful the more Artifacts you can cast, but after he we spoiled I threw a deck together and tested him with some friends and honestly he wasn't as bad as he seems just looking at the card. There's balance in the fact that he's Mono-U. If you want to storm off with him, you have to balance having enough Artifacts to do that while trying to protect him from removal, or your other Artifacts for that matter. He could come out as early as Turn 2 with basically nothing to do with him in extremely optimized decks, or Turn 3 and cast one or two free spells in the VERY UTMOST best case scenario. He doesn't stop others from playing the game or responding. And while he can be built as Stax as others have mentioned, that archetype is relatively uncommon in the greater picture of the Commander community.
but im not gonna get comfy yet but i wouldn't be surprised if he didn't get banned i mean by a tiny bit better than Arcum Dagsson and hes not banned and you could do just as crazy stuff with him
besides we all though the same thing about paradox engine
Leovold was closest, but he was banned because of how easy it was to throw in a bunch of windfalls and lock people out of the game. Him being an infinite mana sink is not enough to get him banned. Most people do not play infinite mana combos. He is not being banned for 1 or 2 activations per turn.
The only risk is if everyone builds him with Static orb, Winter Orb and friends. If everyone is playing Urza stax then he will be banned.
I just have a hard time believing that this is what the majority of players will do.
This is the potential danger I would consider given how close that strays into Leovold territory. Leovold ate a ban due to how easy his asymmetrical lock could be before grinding the game to a halt, not necessarily based on winrate (something often missed on why cards hit the ban list). Urza could do the same, but from a different angle of attack; by locking out the ability to cast spells whilst furthering his own. Although it is nowhere near as drama inducing as Leovold + Teferi’s Puzzle Box, Urza + Static Orb is cheaper overall and still furthers an actual gameplan without relying on what comes to your recycled hand each turn.
I also don’t feel the Legendary Creature should hold any weight on the wellbeing of the format. The point raised about needing to stay on board is also irrelevant given how the same argument can be laid at the feet of Leovold and others on the ban list and how easily they can die to removal.
I should have been more precise; I meant to say that Urza himself is not an Orb effect nor does he actively restrict your opponents from executing certain game actions, such as drawing more than one card per turn like Leovold, Emissary of Trest does.
I'll disagree with your points and elaborate a little more. Sure, Urza works in conjunction with the Orbs to create an oppressive board state but he himself doesn't have the actual card text that reads Winter Orb, Static Orb, or Trinisphere. Leovold was always a problem even if you didn't build him optimally because nearly every Commander deck I know of has some sort of Card Advantage engine that would allow them to draw more than 1 card per turn; Leovold comprehensively, universally, AND proactively shut that off, and he was always cast-able from the Command Zone. By virtue of his card text alone, Leovold ALWAYS disrupted your opponents regardless of whether or not you had Wheel effects in the deck. Leovold himself was the actual lock/stax/unfun piece that made Wheel effects better and as oppressive as they were; Urza is an ENABLER for the Orb effects but doesn't have the same card text that attacks the basic pillars of MTG like Leovold did.
TL;dr Urza does NOT do exactly the same thing that Leovold did because Urza does NOT have the same stax/hate/unfun card text that Leovold does.
I don't disagree that Urza CAN be built oppressively and in a cEDH style of play. But it can also be built as a value and/or Artifact themed Commander too. Because of his card design, there is the possibility of building a list that suits your playgroup whereas I think Leovold was universally shunned. I have a list that I'll be actively testing in preparation of when I receive my copy of Urza in the mail. I had hoped that my argument demonstrated that Urza, while incredibly powerful, just isn't as broken/restrictive/oppressive as the currently banned legendary creatures.
I think that the continuous comparison of Urza to Leovold falls flat for the reason I bolded above. Urza is an incredible value engine that does everything Blue could ever want and he's consequently extremely powerful. Is he powerful enough to be on the nebulous "watch-list" that the RC and CAG has? Sure, just like Paradox Engine has been. And yet Engine is still legal and slots into WAY more decks than Urza can by virtue of being colorless.
I think he and Arcum Dagsson are actually best friends, since Urza brings along an Artifact creature body for Arcum to Tinker. Yeah, let that sink in for a bit.
I would personally say that Urza is better than Arcum since you don't have to dedicate as many card slots to mediocre Artifact creatures to get your engine going. While Wizards has done a good job at creating Artifact creature token spawning cards recently, there's still a critical mass needed in order for Arcum to be effective. Urza isn't as dependent on having a specific card type in his deck, therefore reducing a significant weakness of Arcum decks. Lastly, Urza doesn't need as many deckslots in order to actually execute his combo; playing Citanul Flute has always felt bad when you're using it to simply tutor for a Memnite or Ornithopter.
He seems a bit more like a critical mass card though, which leaves fewer slots for non artifacts, similar to Jhoira. Arcum, being a repeatable tutor, just needs to hit enough artifact creatures to tutor out it's combo pieces.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think that the same critical mass that you would put into an Arcum deck for artifact creatures is the same number of slots that you would put into Urza.
Regardless, I've created a decklist for Urza (link found in my signature) that I'm way excited to test once I get Urza in the mail. It IS built to be as streamlined and cEDH as possible, which I recognize is not the primary way that most people will be building Urza.
I should have been more precise; I meant to say that Urza himself is not an Orb effect nor does he actively restrict your opponents from executing certain game actions, such as drawing more than one card per turn like Leovold, Emissary of Trest does.
I'll disagree with your points and elaborate a little more. Sure, Urza works in conjunction with the Orbs to create an oppressive board state but he himself doesn't have the actual card text that reads Winter Orb, Static Orb, or Trinisphere. Leovold was always a problem even if you didn't build him optimally because nearly every Commander deck I know of has some sort of Card Advantage engine that would allow them to draw more than 1 card per turn; Leovold comprehensively, universally, AND proactively shut that off, and he was always cast-able from the Command Zone. By virtue of his card text alone, Leovold ALWAYS disrupted your opponents regardless of whether or not you had Wheel effects in the deck. Leovold himself was the actual lock/stax/unfun piece that made Wheel effects better and as oppressive as they were; Urza is an ENABLER for the Orb effects but doesn't have the same card text that attacks the basic pillars of MTG like Leovold did.
TL;dr Urza does NOT do exactly the same thing that Leovold did because Urza does NOT have the same stax/hate/unfun card text that Leovold does.
I don't disagree that Urza CAN be built oppressively and in a cEDH style of play. But it can also be built as a value and/or Artifact themed Commander too. Because of his card design, there is the possibility of building a list that suits your playgroup whereas I think Leovold was universally shunned. I have a list that I'll be actively testing in preparation of when I receive my copy of Urza in the mail. I had hoped that my argument demonstrated that Urza, while incredibly powerful, just isn't as broken/restrictive/oppressive as the currently banned legendary creatures.
I think that the continuous comparison of Urza to Leovold falls flat for the reason I bolded above. Urza is an incredible value engine that does everything Blue could ever want and he's consequently extremely powerful. Is he powerful enough to be on the nebulous "watch-list" that the RC and CAG has? Sure, just like Paradox Engine has been. And yet Engine is still legal and slots into WAY more decks than Urza can by virtue of being colorless.
That is an interesting and important distinction.
Urza is more comparable to Derevi and Teferi, in that they work very well with certain stax pieces, but do not necessitate such decks. I rarely see these two generals outside of cEDH. Sure, I used to see Derevi a lot, but people go tired of it at the casual level and I never see it any more.
That being said, Urza could still end up being banned by virtue of directing people to abuse him. When Leovold first came out, people were excited to play him for many reasons... but Leovold's text just pushed everyone to Windfalls.
You can choose to play Urza for many reasons, but it is hard to ignore the power with Orbs and with infinite mana. You are already playing an artifact deck, so these cards get on your radar for sure. The text on Urza may direct people towards the broken builds anyway and lead to a ban.
I honestly cannot think of a fair thing I would want to do with Urza. Commander players like building synergistic decks, and his two main synergies are busted.
I honestly cannot think of a fair thing I would want to do with Urza. Commander players like building synergistic decks, and his two main synergies are busted.
I like Urza just from a ramp perspective. I mean, how many additional artifacts do you need to have in play before Urza becomes viable? At least two for sure. Maybe only one? A 4-drop that not only produces color but also refunds mana the turn you play it is a rare breed, and even more so for blue. I know I'll be jamming him in decks he likely has no business being in just for that reason alone. He's just such a good card whether you're committed to an artifact theme or not.
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besides we all though the same thing about paradox engine
And that card makes for some pretty unattractive board states. Hopefully it gets the axe soon enough.
But Urza does a bunch of stuff we have already seen. I don't think it catches a ban unless the proposed adjustment to the ban philosophy shifts the criteria a lot, which seems very unlikely.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I should have been more precise; I meant to say that Urza himself is not an Orb effect nor does he actively restrict your opponents from executing certain game actions, such as drawing more than one card per turn like Leovold, Emissary of Trest does.
I'll disagree with your points and elaborate a little more. Sure, Urza works in conjunction with the Orbs to create an oppressive board state but he himself doesn't have the actual card text that reads Winter Orb, Static Orb, or Trinisphere. Leovold was always a problem even if you didn't build him optimally because nearly every Commander deck I know of has some sort of Card Advantage engine that would allow them to draw more than 1 card per turn; Leovold comprehensively, universally, AND proactively shut that off, and he was always cast-able from the Command Zone. By virtue of his card text alone, Leovold ALWAYS disrupted your opponents regardless of whether or not you had Wheel effects in the deck. Leovold himself was the actual lock/stax/unfun piece that made Wheel effects better and as oppressive as they were; Urza is an ENABLER for the Orb effects but doesn't have the same card text that attacks the basic pillars of MTG like Leovold did.
TL;dr Urza does NOT do exactly the same thing that Leovold did because Urza does NOT have the same stax/hate/unfun card text that Leovold does.
I don't disagree that Urza CAN be built oppressively and in a cEDH style of play. But it can also be built as a value and/or Artifact themed Commander too. Because of his card design, there is the possibility of building a list that suits your playgroup whereas I think Leovold was universally shunned. I have a list that I'll be actively testing in preparation of when I receive my copy of Urza in the mail. I had hoped that my argument demonstrated that Urza, while incredibly powerful, just isn't as broken/restrictive/oppressive as the currently banned legendary creatures.
I think that the continuous comparison of Urza to Leovold falls flat for the reason I bolded above. Urza is an incredible value engine that does everything Blue could ever want and he's consequently extremely powerful. Is he powerful enough to be on the nebulous "watch-list" that the RC and CAG has? Sure, just like Paradox Engine has been. And yet Engine is still legal and slots into WAY more decks than Urza can by virtue of being colorless.
That is an interesting and important distinction.
Urza is more comparable to Derevi and Teferi, in that they work very well with certain stax pieces, but do not necessitate such decks. I rarely see these two generals outside of cEDH. Sure, I used to see Derevi a lot, but people go tired of it at the casual level and I never see it any more.
That being said, Urza could still end up being banned by virtue of directing people to abuse him. When Leovold first came out, people were excited to play him for many reasons... but Leovold's text just pushed everyone to Windfalls.
You can choose to play Urza for many reasons, but it is hard to ignore the power with Orbs and with infinite mana. You are already playing an artifact deck, so these cards get on your radar for sure. The text on Urza may direct people towards the broken builds anyway and lead to a ban.
I honestly cannot think of a fair thing I would want to do with Urza. Commander players like building synergistic decks, and his two main synergies are busted.
Personally, I'm going to just jam in a bunch of ***** from Antiquities and Saga and watch him turn jank like Amulet of Kroog and Colossus of Sardia into a working deck.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
One thing I don't recall seeing mentioned, and apologies if it was, is the actual HOW of going infinite. Thrasios just draws cards, so you go infinite and slowly reveal your deck. However, because Urza plays out more like a Mind's Desire, you are going to have to shuffle your Library any time your group doesn't allow shortcuts or something about the board state requires it. So there is a "creates undesirable hame states" aspect to the card as well.
I like Urza just from a ramp perspective. I mean, how many additional artifacts do you need to have in play before Urza becomes viable? At least two for sure. Maybe only one? A 4-drop that not only produces color but also refunds mana the turn you play it is a rare breed, and even more so for blue. I know I'll be jamming him in decks he likely has no business being in just for that reason alone. He's just such a good card whether you're committed to an artifact theme or not.
That's not exactly a point in his favor, as fast mana is a strike against a card (not that I'm suggesting in the slightest that Urza falls under that category).
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
You make infinite mana, activate his ability X amount of times where X is your deck size, and just flip it to exile all at once, then you show what your wincon is. There’s no real benefit to flipping each card individually once you're going to win.
I don't think he will be banned, he's weaker than Sharuum and Breya both.
I expect he will be annoying. But only in the literally exact same way as all the other mono blue artifact based decks. it's not like there is a shortage of people wanting to slam mana rocks, sometimes stax pieces, and combo out with them.
My guess is the people doing degenerate things with him would already be doing that stuff.
Usually there's a whole "wait until its played for a bit" period for cards, but the issues with Urza can be seen a mile away and honestly, most of said issues are just better executions of things that exist now.
1) He's both an enabler AND an outlet for what he enables.
Not only does Urza have the ability to turn utility artifacts and colorless ramp artifacts you were going to use anyway into untapped and likely cheaper Sky Diamonds, he also provides an outlet for generating the insane and/or infinite mana you are going to chase when building him. You can next to ignore the first ability of putting an artifact into play, but if that ends up being your only untapped artifact upon resolving Urza, thats still a Swan Song or other instant represented.
I've seen some comparisons to other outlets in blue, along with Thrasios and Tasigur. Neither of these cards enables itself however, or at least in Thrasios' case it does not provide untapped mana unassisted when using that activated ability. Whilst it is true that going mono blue restricts access to tutors and other effects, lets not be coy; that didn't exactly stop Teferi now did it? Speaking of...
2) He's a faster version of a problem deck that already exists.
Sure, you aren't including the Chain Veil in this list, but there will be a vast amount of crossover with a cheaper Commander and less moving parts to interrupt along the way. Teferi has been out long enough for players to find the intricacies and corner cases I'm sure they'll use to demonstrate how much better he is than Urza, but if its THIS easy to find the obvious plays with Urza, then just think of all the corner case cheap artifacts that'll emerge to deal with the problems this deck would face.
3) It doesn't take any effort at all to break him, short of actively not including the card type he works with.
Even if you were desperate to pursue the casual route, include no infinite combos, build mono blue artifact tokens in a way that leaves Sai crying in the bin of obsolete ideas, you still have an unbelievably easy way to generate advantage on board from a 4 mana commander. If you untap with Urza, that'll be a dinner bell at the casual table. I get the legacy behind this character, I get the appeal of powerful Magic, but this card looks like it packs way too many strikes by itself. Vannifar required a specific chain, utterly ruined if you drew into one part of it, but this guy does not have such a draw back.
Dropping the Chicken Little complex now, but those are the 3 key things I see being an issue to support a banning. I doubt he'll be banned day 1 or receive the emergency treatment Griselbrand did, but Urza is only going to get stronger as time goes on. The thing is, with a baseline THIS good, how long does that last?
Basically what I am thinking is that he will probably be incredibly strong but not more busted than many other combo commanders and he isn't actively interrupting every other players gameplay.
I do like how he gets around Stony Silence though.
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Rules Advisor
I'll step up to the plate and attempt to defend Urza remaining unbanned. I will concede first that he's on a similar power level as Paradox Engine, which is both a great argument for and against Urza being banned; great, because Engine is still unbanned even after several ban announcements and bad because Engine is borderline too powerful for Commander.
Alright, I'll address each of your points.
I've mentioned this repeatedly now, but Urza is a very powerful card in his own right, and worthy of being on the nebulous "watch-list" that the RC and CAG have. The reason that the Commanders that are currently banned were banned in the first place is because they either limited/diminished your opponent's ability to actually play the game (see Leovold, Erayo, Emrakul, and Braids) or generated TOO much of an advantage that your opponents couldn't overcome (see Rofellos, Griselbrand, and Emrakul) in spite of the decklist that you may have built. Urza is a massively powerful Commander in his own right, but he can still be interacted with and will only be truly abused by the cEDH subset of players that exist. Ultimately, I agree with HugSeal's second point that he doesn't actively interrupt every other player's gameplay.
A final reason that I think he should remain unbanned is simply because of the Commander player's expectations regarding Urza. Urza is by far one of the most iconic characters in all of Magic, and the current presales price of him reflects the many expectations that Commander players have for him; a majority of his price is probably coming from the Commander crowd since I'm almost certain that he won't see Legacy and barely any Modern play. I think that there would be a significant backlash from the Commander community should he get banned because of how legendary Urza actually is in the storyline.
Hopefully my points are coherent and salient and, if the RC and CAG are reading this, strong points to consider before making a decision to ban him.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Thrasios is probably actually stronger due to being in green for tutors and ramp.
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[Modern] Allies
This doesn't hit any of the boxes for cards that were banned in the last few years.
Leovold was closest, but he was banned because of how easy it was to throw in a bunch of windfalls and lock people out of the game. Him being an infinite mana sink is not enough to get him banned. Most people do not play infinite mana combos. He is not being banned for 1 or 2 activations per turn.
The only risk is if everyone builds him with Static orb, Winter Orb and friends. If everyone is playing Urza stax then he will be banned.
I just have a hard time believing that this is what the majority of players will do.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Agreed on the points brought up here.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I would personally say that Urza is better than Arcum since you don't have to dedicate as many card slots to mediocre Artifact creatures to get your engine going. While Wizards has done a good job at creating Artifact creature token spawning cards recently, there's still a critical mass needed in order for Arcum to be effective. Urza isn't as dependent on having a specific card type in his deck, therefore reducing a significant weakness of Arcum decks. Lastly, Urza doesn't need as many deckslots in order to actually execute his combo; playing Citanul Flute has always felt bad when you're using it to simply tutor for a Memnite or Ornithopter.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
(Also known as Xenphire)
but im not gonna get comfy yet but i wouldn't be surprised if he didn't get banned i mean by a tiny bit better than Arcum Dagsson and hes not banned and you could do just as crazy stuff with him
besides we all though the same thing about paradox engine
This is the potential danger I would consider given how close that strays into Leovold territory. Leovold ate a ban due to how easy his asymmetrical lock could be before grinding the game to a halt, not necessarily based on winrate (something often missed on why cards hit the ban list). Urza could do the same, but from a different angle of attack; by locking out the ability to cast spells whilst furthering his own. Although it is nowhere near as drama inducing as Leovold + Teferi’s Puzzle Box, Urza + Static Orb is cheaper overall and still furthers an actual gameplan without relying on what comes to your recycled hand each turn.
I also don’t feel the Legendary Creature should hold any weight on the wellbeing of the format. The point raised about needing to stay on board is also irrelevant given how the same argument can be laid at the feet of Leovold and others on the ban list and how easily they can die to removal.
I think that the continuous comparison of Urza to Leovold falls flat for the reason I bolded above. Urza is an incredible value engine that does everything Blue could ever want and he's consequently extremely powerful. Is he powerful enough to be on the nebulous "watch-list" that the RC and CAG has? Sure, just like Paradox Engine has been. And yet Engine is still legal and slots into WAY more decks than Urza can by virtue of being colorless.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
He seems a bit more like a critical mass card though, which leaves fewer slots for non artifacts, similar to Jhoira. Arcum, being a repeatable tutor, just needs to hit enough artifact creatures to tutor out it's combo pieces.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Regardless, I've created a decklist for Urza (link found in my signature) that I'm way excited to test once I get Urza in the mail. It IS built to be as streamlined and cEDH as possible, which I recognize is not the primary way that most people will be building Urza.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
That is an interesting and important distinction.
Urza is more comparable to Derevi and Teferi, in that they work very well with certain stax pieces, but do not necessitate such decks. I rarely see these two generals outside of cEDH. Sure, I used to see Derevi a lot, but people go tired of it at the casual level and I never see it any more.
That being said, Urza could still end up being banned by virtue of directing people to abuse him. When Leovold first came out, people were excited to play him for many reasons... but Leovold's text just pushed everyone to Windfalls.
You can choose to play Urza for many reasons, but it is hard to ignore the power with Orbs and with infinite mana. You are already playing an artifact deck, so these cards get on your radar for sure. The text on Urza may direct people towards the broken builds anyway and lead to a ban.
I honestly cannot think of a fair thing I would want to do with Urza. Commander players like building synergistic decks, and his two main synergies are busted.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
But Urza does a bunch of stuff we have already seen. I don't think it catches a ban unless the proposed adjustment to the ban philosophy shifts the criteria a lot, which seems very unlikely.
Personally, I'm going to just jam in a bunch of ***** from Antiquities and Saga and watch him turn jank like Amulet of Kroog and Colossus of Sardia into a working deck.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That's not exactly a point in his favor, as fast mana is a strike against a card (not that I'm suggesting in the slightest that Urza falls under that category).
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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I expect he will be annoying. But only in the literally exact same way as all the other mono blue artifact based decks. it's not like there is a shortage of people wanting to slam mana rocks, sometimes stax pieces, and combo out with them.
My guess is the people doing degenerate things with him would already be doing that stuff.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall