Over the past few weeks, the upcomming release of War of the Spark made a lot of people wondering wether or not Planeswalker should be allowed as commanders. This reignited (pun intended obviously) the discussions in the thread [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals, multiplying by five the number of comments under this two years old thread. But what both side always agreed on was the lack of empyrical data and overall testing that was needed for such a groundbreaking thing to happen.
Lately, the discussion seems to have slowed down as people started agreeing more and more on the pros and cons of allowing planeswalker as generals, as well as some apparently necessary rule changes that would have to take place for that to happen.
The purpose of this thread is the following: summing up pros and cons that both sides can agree on, proposing rule changes, discussing and editing them so that we can all try to have a standardized approach to the testing so that the Commander Advisory Group (CAG) can have the data they need to take a decision that won't break the format or be only motivated by a fear of breaking the format. Remember, the goal here is not to create another format (praise be to the previously unwritten yet basic law of EDH, rule 0: "Local groups are welcome to modify [the rules] as they see fit. If you’d like an exception to these rules, especially in an unfamiliar environment, please get the approval of the other players before the game begins"), but to help both the CAG and playgroups who would like to have a fun experience while running PW based decks.
So, without further ado, let's jump into it!
Pros:
Flavor: had the format been created after Lorwyn, it would most likely have had planeswalker legal as commanders from the very beginning. What other reason could there be to play specifically legendary creatures as generals and not any "normal" creatures in a singleton format?
Bringing more people to the format. This point is fairly tied to the first one, as many of us probably found their first commander by opening a booster with a flashy creature we couldn't make shine anywhere else. It's even more flagrant now that Planeswalkers are the litteral face of MTG and the core of the flavor (and advertisement) of the game.
These points mostly care for the future of the format. However, as people against a hasty change saw soon enough, there would be a number of issues that may end up spoiling the fun of many entitled EDH players and eventually drive them away from the format. Here are the most concerning cons I could gather.
Cons:
Planeswalker tend to slow the game down by encouraging value/control based decks and virtually augmenting the life total of their controllers, making it harder for aggro decks to thrive in a format where they already are in minority. And forcing a whole strategy type out of the format for flavor reasons is obviously a no-go.
Many planeswalker-based strategies would just end up being races to get to their general's ultimate, many of which are nigh on impossible to remove emblems (the only solution being going full archenemy and killing the emblem's owner). This could create very frustrating games.
No matter what arguments people may have about the power level of a certain card (especially using the good old Teferi, temporal archmage comparison which may or may not be valid), there are some planeswalker perfectly fine in the 99 that would be bound to be banned if they were accessible from the command zone. People still like playing planeswalkers in the 99, and the RC philosophy on the banlist is to keep it as short as possible. Having too many broken generals leave entirely the format would be very unpleasant to many. Players' favorites like Venser, the sojourner and Sorin Markov are pretty likely to get banned, and I would be among the first persons to be saddened to sleeve them out because of that.
Rule changes
Now that we've seen some of the most important consequences, here are the two other rule changes that have been discussed and that seem to be pre-requisite for a healthy format with Planeswalker as generals:
Bringing back the banned-as-a-commander (BAC) banlist. This would allow a lot omre flexibility on the bans without hurting decks that aren't abusing planeswalkers. Due to their flexibility Planeswalker are often always good in the 99 which isn't the case of several banned legendary creatures like Braids for example. Having them outright banned du to one specific combo abusing the command zone would hurt the perennity of the format. This unfortunately may end up creating a longer banlist (hence why the RC dropped it), but the added flexibility seems necessary with Planeswalkers around.
Lowering the starting life total to 30. This one will probably be more controversial but has the added bonus of creating faster games while allowing aggressive strategies to be viable again, even if the aggressive player is alone against three other planeswalker commander decks. While this may end up making Najeela, the Blade-Blossom busted (we'll have to keep an eye on her), this is a rule that I've been experiencing with some friends at a casual and experienced level for years now (with or without Planeswalkers). My playgroup's experience can't be generalized for the whole world obviously, but this is an already popular rule change among playgroups which are using Rule 0 so we can hope it will work out as intended.
Banlist
Bringing back the BAC banlist obviously means that we'll have to part ways from the current RC banlist (but I'm still going to use it in my first draft). Here is a proposition, please debate it with both theories, decklists and eventual results:
The crux of this thread hinges on reinstating the BaaC and lowering the starting life total. Both of these are fundamental changes when are unlikely to get rraction at the CAG/RC level, so this is a thought exercise at best but not one which is likely to spark any discussions that haven't already been had amongst the RC.
I encourage playgroups who want to test this to do so, and this thread is at least a well thought out starting point. Arguing about it is beating a dead horse, and I strongly doubt that OPs experiment is going to uncover anything the RC or CAG won't, but it CAN help give some extra perspective, and it CAN help hammer out the best practices for playgroups who want to take advantage of rule 0 to allow PW commanders (that is, what steps should be taken to make the change work the best that it can).
I'm personally not sold on the lower life total as necessary. It seems more like a personal preference tacked on. I'll concede that it's definitely easier to win when you are looking at 40 less life to chip away at, but I don't think it will help much when your opponents are using pillow fort, boardwipe after boardwipe, or stax and tax as if it's working it's probably stopping you from closing out 30 life as 40. If I play aggro, I'm much more concerned with a guy threatening to combo or set up a way to lock out creatures from hitting them than I am about the guy gaining 100 life (or I was before Aetherflux made me look askance at anyone sitting at 50+).
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
We usually play with 30 HP in our playgroup. It makes aggro more relevant and all the combo decks have harder time to combo out before their life reaches 0.
I don't mind that change.
Also I am for bringing back BaaC.
We also houseruled that if all agree, PW's are available. If it proves the one being played is too strong, we will tell it after the game.
Not interested in playing this variant, but I am surprised that you don't have Ashiok, Dream Render in the BaaC list or even on the watchlist. A three mana commander that can come out by turn 2 or 3 that kills all of your opponents' manafixing, ramp, tutors, and graveyard decks seems highly oppressive. If they don't draw their Terramorphic Expanse on turn one, they may not be able to play, and it isn't symmetrical - seems far worse than anything else on your watchlist.
Not interested in playing this variant, but I am surprised that you don't have Ashiok, Dream Render in the BaaC list or even on the watchlist. A three mana commander that can come out by turn 2 or 3 that kills all of your opponents' manafixing, ramp, tutors, and graveyard decks seems highly oppressive. If they don't draw their Terramorphic Expanse on turn one, they may not be able to play, and it isn't symmetrical - seems far worse than anything else on your watchlist.
Try turn 1 with a Dark Ritual. That's near enough a non-game for 4-5 and some 3 color builds. Doesn't combo in the zone with anything, but its in the colors to strongly tutor for a combo too.
I think there are way to many planeswalkers on the watchlist that are not even remotely problematic compared to currently existing generals.
I would make the starting planeswalker watchlist: sorin markov - interacts poorly with commander Narset, Parter of Veils - Not as good as leovold but if it's just making everyone discard their hand no one will enjoy the game Dack Fayden - Too strong tamiyo, field researcher - Doubling season instant win in a way that casual players might think it isn't ashiok, dream render - I don't think it's a problem but people keep bringing it up
I think there are way to many planeswalkers on the watchlist that are not even remotely problematic compared to currently existing generals.
It is just the watchlist so I think if they really do nothing you can remove them, better save than sorry.
Even tough I wouldn't like the change for allowing pw's in general (my reasons for that are in the threat linked by OP). I will ask my playgroup if we can play one or 2 nights with that rule active as I agree with Onerings Statement
I encourage playgroups who want to test this to do so, and this thread is at least a well thought out starting point. Arguing about it is beating a dead horse, and I strongly doubt that OPs experiment is going to uncover anything the RC or CAG won't, but it CAN help give some extra perspective, and it CAN help hammer out the best practices for playgroups who want to take advantage of rule 0 to allow PW commanders (that is, what steps should be taken to make the change work the best that it can).
And seeing that my Playgroup already has Themed weeks sometimes might as well try PW's out. It might help those who want to housrule it if many people tried it before and gather best practices.
We usually play with 30 HP in our playgroup. It makes aggro more relevant and all the combo decks have harder time to combo out before their life reaches 0.
I don't mind that change.
Also I am for bringing back BaaC.
We also houseruled that if all agree, PW's are available. If it proves the one being played is too strong, we will tell it after the game.
We played with 30-life for a good number of years, and then i moved, and i never ended up introducing it to the new peeps. It makes aggro strategies more playable, and the games are a lot more interactive this way - and you can really feel the pressure. Getting hit with a godsire at 40 life is nothing. At 30, it starts to get real.
I never really understood the point of removing the BaaC; i'm assuming that players are smart enough to figure out that some cards are completely ok to play with, but are a bit too bonkers when used as a general.
I completely agree for Ashiok: their biggest shortcoming is that because of the "opponent controls" clause, the ability can't be abused. I'll still add them to the list.
As for Dack, that power of looting can be impressive, but not really abusable as well: the best use of his -2 would just help his controler to get all of the ol rings around the table, which is cool but sol ring for 1UR is clearly not as impressive as the real sol ring.
For Tamiyo, I'm not sure yet... But I'll add her nonetheless. The two-cards combo part isn't banworthy, as Teferi shows us: however, the access to a two-cards combo with three colors that are quite good at tutoring is clearly something else.
I'll try to brew a bunch of lists to try a few walkers on the watchlist. Who would you like to see first? Gideon, champion of Justice and Saheeli, sublime artificer seem to be good points to start with, as they do not require much build around to be really powerful.
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1RU for a sol ring isn't great, but that's not what Dack is in that situation. He's 1RU for a solid ring that also gets rid of an opponents sol ring, and that's a big swing, and then he sticks around with a strong looting ability building up to steal the next one. He also serves a rattlesnake function where just being in the command zone threatens to steal people's rocks. His ult is fairly easy to hit once you have that Mana advantage to protect him, but I'm not sure it would be worth it to run cards to make it worthwhile, so it's usually worthless (though if you get it it can be game winning with a few buyback spells).
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
1RU for a sol ring isn't great, but that's not what Dack is in that situation. He's 1RU for a solid ring that also gets rid of an opponents sol ring, and that's a big swing, and then he sticks around with a strong looting ability building up to steal the next one. He also serves a rattlesnake function where just being in the command zone threatens to steal people's rocks. His ult is fairly easy to hit once you have that Mana advantage to protect him, but I'm not sure it would be worth it to run cards to make it worthwhile, so it's usually worthless (though if you get it it can be game winning with a few buyback spells).
I'm not saying he is not strong, but is it banworthy? Power level wise, he still seems around Aminatou, the fateshifter. I doubt he can really get out of hand easily since none of his abilities can really be abused on their own... If we were talking about a UR general to ban, I think Saheeli, Sublime Artificer is much more dangerous (being a much stronger Sai/Talrand).
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1RU for a sol ring isn't great, but that's not what Dack is in that situation. He's 1RU for a solid ring that also gets rid of an opponents sol ring, and that's a big swing, and then he sticks around with a strong looting ability building up to steal the next one. He also serves a rattlesnake function where just being in the command zone threatens to steal people's rocks. His ult is fairly easy to hit once you have that Mana advantage to protect him, but I'm not sure it would be worth it to run cards to make it worthwhile, so it's usually worthless (though if you get it it can be game winning with a few buyback spells).
I'm not saying he is not strong, but is it banworthy? Power level wise, he still seems around Aminatou, the fateshifter. I doubt he can really get out of hand easily since none of his abilities can really be abused on their own... If we were talking about a UR general to ban, I think Saheeli, Sublime Artificer is much more dangerous (being a much stronger Sai/Talrand).
Saheeli is on his watchlist as well, for good reason. But remember that banning isn't just about power level, its about removing cards that make for "bad" games. A steal effect in the CZ that is, lets face it, universally useful, very swingy, and hits early means that the Dack player is X times more likely to get sol ring by turn 3, where X is the number of opponents, than the typical deck. Don't underestimate the rattlesnake factor of people wanting to hold back their rocks, even their more fair rocks, because Dack can steal them early. Mana rocks, even excluding sol ring, mana crypt, and mana vault, are the backbone of this format. Signets, manaliths, etc are in practically every deck. Dack doesn't just give a boost to his owner, he nerfs an opponent and discourages everyone else from playing their artifacts. His presence in the CZ I believe creates an undesirable game state, where actually playing the cards you draw is the wrong play, with no set up from the person running Dack, while also damaging the primary way non green decks can combat mana and color screw.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Saheeli is on his watchlist as well, for good reason.
think you meant this as the guy you are talking to is the OP :D.
But I agree that dack creates unfavorable gamestates if hes in the CZ. While not easily abusable his +1 and -2 are always useful, and there are still some cards that can makepretty good use of his abilities. If Vraska, Relic Seeker is on the watchlist I really thing Dack should be too.
My Playgroup agreed to try that out for one or two weeks but it will take the guys a while to build their decks. Since we pretty much dissolve our themed decks after we played a couple of games with them most of us will use what they have and not go out of their way to get new stuff. So I thought about going either Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge,Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner or Nissa, Steward of Elements.
My biggest trepidation about allowing Planeswalker Commanders is the resulting bans that would need to occur in order to make this possible. If cards like Doubling Season need to be banned, then I wouldn’t want to consider it to be honest.
What I don’t understand is why would you want to advocate for Planeswalker Commanders and tie it to a starting life total change and bringing back the BaaC list. Just allowing Planeswalkers in the Command zone is a big enough change to contemplate, so why complicate the situation even more?
What I don’t understand is why would you want to advocate for Planeswalker Commanders and tie it to a starting life total change and bringing back the BaaC list. Just allowing Planeswalkers in the Command zone is a big enough change to contemplate, so why complicate the situation even more?
Yep, exactly that. The smartest way to test to see if something is valid or not, you should try to test one variable at a time to isolate the results of that variable.
Though to be honest, i think the RC is not going to budge on the PW as general nor the 30 life thing. PWs are going to make cards like tezzeret the seeker banned, which isn't what players want, and the 30 life thing is going to make battlecruiser magic significantly harder to do - and that is what draws many newer players to this format. the Banned as a commander thing i can see coming back though, but the final effect would be so minor that i'm not even sure its worth the effort.
I don't see any real pros... Reducing the life total just because PW's are allowed as your Commander doesn't make sense at all. You can choose between so many Generals, why would we need this rule change? Having such a big watchlist because of that creates uncertainty and keeps players from building certain decks or entering the format.
This will inevitably lead to a bigger banlist and many people will have problems to keep track of all that.
I don't see any real pros... Reducing the life total just because PW's are allowed as your Commander doesn't make sense at all. You can choose between so many Generals, why would we need this rule change? Having such a big watchlist because of that creates uncertainty and keeps players from building certain decks or entering the format.
This will inevitably lead to a bigger banlist and many people will have problems to keep track of all that.
As an experienced player I will say that the list of interesting generals is not nearly as big as it seems and I am already at the point of boredom with existing options.
I don't see any real pros... Reducing the life total just because PW's are allowed as your Commander doesn't make sense at all. You can choose between so many Generals, why would we need this rule change? Having such a big watchlist because of that creates uncertainty and keeps players from building certain decks or entering the format.
This will inevitably lead to a bigger banlist and many people will have problems to keep track of all that.
As an experienced player I will say that the list of interesting generals is not nearly as big as it seems and I am already at the point of boredom with existing options.
So adding pws as commanders would give you what, like 5 more options? I highly doubt you've exhausted all the interesting commanders, and the few potentially interesting pw commanders would hardly solve your problem, you'd exhaust them pretty quickly.
For the guy you responded to, OP is proposing a format variant rather than a rules change. This has value in that it could allow playgroups that want to run PW commanders a good starting point to go by without having to figure out what's busted and unfun for themselves, making it more likely that playgroups can run PW nights successfully. It accomplishes this without forcing a change on the larger format.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, i can't really fault him/her for being bored with the existing options. Many of the current generals already have an "optimal" build, which leads to this boringness - it's already been solved.
My way of dealing with this is to try to do the opposite of what the general seems to want to be. My zedruu the greathearted voltron deck is sort of the epitome of that. No one expects zedruu to get pumped to 13+ power and attack with double strike.
I'm not sure necessary changing the rules is what the community needs. I think static, reliable rules are good. That being said, I think an emphasis on local groups having local house-rules is probably something that everyone needs. It did take a bit of time for me to convince my playgroup that we'd transcended the need for the RC to dictate how we play EDH, and our group's gotten better for it. Not to demean what the RC does though; they generally do a good job - it's just that my group isn't exactly their target.
Well, i can't really fault him/her for being bored with the existing options. Many of the current generals already have an "optimal" build, which leads to this boringness - it's already been solved.
My way of dealing with this is to try to do the opposite of what the general seems to want to be. My zedruu the greathearted voltron deck is sort of the epitome of that. No one expects zedruu to get pumped to 13+ power and attack with double strike.
I'm not sure necessary changing the rules is what the community needs. I think static, reliable rules are good. That being said, I think an emphasis on local groups having local house-rules is probably something that everyone needs. It did take a bit of time for me to convince my playgroup that we'd transcended the need for the RC to dictate how we play EDH, and our group's gotten better for it. Not to demean what the RC does though; they generally do a good job - it's just that my group isn't exactly their target.
I can see someone getting bored for that reason, but anybody that does should also realize how shallow the pool of interesting PW commanders is and how quickly they'd get bored of those for the same reason. Interesting PWs, those that aren't just good stuff value engines, are all pretty narrow, and optimized lists would be out as quickly for them as for any other linear commander like Neo Arcades. Very few actually do something that isn't already done by a legend in their colors (and most of those are already legal as commanders because they were designed to be). Allowing PW commanders would not solve his problem, if he's actually being honest about it.
This variant doesn't solve the variety issue. Nothing will solve the optimized list issue, you just have to, like you said, build outside the box and accept your deck not being optimized for the commander (but obviously you can optimize it for the build). What this variant does solve is the flavor argument. It simply gives people a framework to use to do something they want to do. It doesn't need any reasons to justify it beyond "some people want this" because it's not being forced on anyone, its just an option. That also gives the people experimenting with this more options to tweak the ban list to make this actually work.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, i can't really fault him/her for being bored with the existing options. Many of the current generals already have an "optimal" build, which leads to this boringness - it's already been solved.
My way of dealing with this is to try to do the opposite of what the general seems to want to be. My zedruu the greathearted voltron deck is sort of the epitome of that. No one expects zedruu to get pumped to 13+ power and attack with double strike.
I'm not sure necessary changing the rules is what the community needs. I think static, reliable rules are good. That being said, I think an emphasis on local groups having local house-rules is probably something that everyone needs. It did take a bit of time for me to convince my playgroup that we'd transcended the need for the RC to dictate how we play EDH, and our group's gotten better for it. Not to demean what the RC does though; they generally do a good job - it's just that my group isn't exactly their target.
I can see someone getting bored for that reason, but anybody that does should also realize how shallow the pool of interesting PW commanders is and how quickly they'd get bored of those for the same reason. Interesting PWs, those that aren't just good stuff value engines, are all pretty narrow, and optimized lists would be out as quickly for them as for any other linear commander like Neo Arcades. Very few actually do something that isn't already done by a legend in their colors (and most of those are already legal as commanders because they were designed to be). Allowing PW commanders would not solve his problem, if he's actually being honest about it.
This variant doesn't solve the variety issue. Nothing will solve the optimized list issue, you just have to, like you said, build outside the box and accept your deck not being optimized for the commander (but obviously you can optimize it for the build). What this variant does solve is the flavor argument. It simply gives people a framework to use to do something they want to do. It doesn't need any reasons to justify it beyond "some people want this" because it's not being forced on anyone, its just an option. That also gives the people experimenting with this more options to tweak the ban list to make this actually work.
so i've recently (in the last month or so) discovered a variant called oathbreaker. It's probably what the OP wants to see made. Being a 60-card singleton means that it's possible to have multiple 'optimal builds', since each deck can have a much narrow focus. For example, i built new saheeli with transmute artifact, another with blasphemous act, with thoughtcast and with treasure cruise. None are more an obvious build than the other, and they all play quite differently from each other.
But yea, back to onering's comment, i agree with the flavour argument. Though In a weird way, oathbreaker goes too far with the flavour; how is it possible for saheeli to chuck mountains onto the field before she gets cast? 'Cuz on that level, EDH should have a signature spell (which represents what we can do, and can cast it whenevers), and a general (a magic familiar). But i think its not really worth overhauling the game to make that work. Could be a silly alternative format though.
Over the past few weeks, the upcomming release of War of the Spark made a lot of people wondering wether or not Planeswalker should be allowed as commanders. This reignited (pun intended obviously) the discussions in the thread [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals, multiplying by five the number of comments under this two years old thread. But what both side always agreed on was the lack of empyrical data and overall testing that was needed for such a groundbreaking thing to happen.
Lately, the discussion seems to have slowed down as people started agreeing more and more on the pros and cons of allowing planeswalker as generals, as well as some apparently necessary rule changes that would have to take place for that to happen.
The purpose of this thread is the following: summing up pros and cons that both sides can agree on, proposing rule changes, discussing and editing them so that we can all try to have a standardized approach to the testing so that the Commander Advisory Group (CAG) can have the data they need to take a decision that won't break the format or be only motivated by a fear of breaking the format. Remember, the goal here is not to create another format (praise be to the previously unwritten yet basic law of EDH, rule 0: "Local groups are welcome to modify [the rules] as they see fit. If you’d like an exception to these rules, especially in an unfamiliar environment, please get the approval of the other players before the game begins"), but to help both the CAG and playgroups who would like to have a fun experience while running PW based decks.
So, without further ado, let's jump into it!
Pros:
Cons:
Rule changes
Now that we've seen some of the most important consequences, here are the two other rule changes that have been discussed and that seem to be pre-requisite for a healthy format with Planeswalker as generals:
Banlist
Bringing back the BAC banlist obviously means that we'll have to part ways from the current RC banlist (but I'm still going to use it in my first draft). Here is a proposition, please debate it with both theories, decklists and eventual results:
Banned:
I hope that thread managed to catch your interest, and if so I'd be glad to update it with your feedback.
See you on this plane or another, fellow Planeswalkers!
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I'm personally not sold on the lower life total as necessary. It seems more like a personal preference tacked on. I'll concede that it's definitely easier to win when you are looking at 40 less life to chip away at, but I don't think it will help much when your opponents are using pillow fort, boardwipe after boardwipe, or stax and tax as if it's working it's probably stopping you from closing out 30 life as 40. If I play aggro, I'm much more concerned with a guy threatening to combo or set up a way to lock out creatures from hitting them than I am about the guy gaining 100 life (or I was before Aetherflux made me look askance at anyone sitting at 50+).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I don't mind that change.
Also I am for bringing back BaaC.
We also houseruled that if all agree, PW's are available. If it proves the one being played is too strong, we will tell it after the game.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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Try turn 1 with a Dark Ritual. That's near enough a non-game for 4-5 and some 3 color builds. Doesn't combo in the zone with anything, but its in the colors to strongly tutor for a combo too.
I would make the starting planeswalker watchlist:
sorin markov - interacts poorly with commander
Narset, Parter of Veils - Not as good as leovold but if it's just making everyone discard their hand no one will enjoy the game
Dack Fayden - Too strong
tamiyo, field researcher - Doubling season instant win in a way that casual players might think it isn't
ashiok, dream render - I don't think it's a problem but people keep bringing it up
It is just the watchlist so I think if they really do nothing you can remove them, better save than sorry.
Even tough I wouldn't like the change for allowing pw's in general (my reasons for that are in the threat linked by OP). I will ask my playgroup if we can play one or 2 nights with that rule active as I agree with Onerings Statement
And seeing that my Playgroup already has Themed weeks sometimes might as well try PW's out. It might help those who want to housrule it if many people tried it before and gather best practices.
We played with 30-life for a good number of years, and then i moved, and i never ended up introducing it to the new peeps. It makes aggro strategies more playable, and the games are a lot more interactive this way - and you can really feel the pressure. Getting hit with a godsire at 40 life is nothing. At 30, it starts to get real.
I never really understood the point of removing the BaaC; i'm assuming that players are smart enough to figure out that some cards are completely ok to play with, but are a bit too bonkers when used as a general.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
As for Dack, that power of looting can be impressive, but not really abusable as well: the best use of his -2 would just help his controler to get all of the ol rings around the table, which is cool but sol ring for 1UR is clearly not as impressive as the real sol ring.
For Tamiyo, I'm not sure yet... But I'll add her nonetheless. The two-cards combo part isn't banworthy, as Teferi shows us: however, the access to a two-cards combo with three colors that are quite good at tutoring is clearly something else.
I'll try to brew a bunch of lists to try a few walkers on the watchlist. Who would you like to see first? Gideon, champion of Justice and Saheeli, sublime artificer seem to be good points to start with, as they do not require much build around to be really powerful.
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm not saying he is not strong, but is it banworthy? Power level wise, he still seems around Aminatou, the fateshifter. I doubt he can really get out of hand easily since none of his abilities can really be abused on their own... If we were talking about a UR general to ban, I think Saheeli, Sublime Artificer is much more dangerous (being a much stronger Sai/Talrand).
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
Saheeli is on his watchlist as well, for good reason. But remember that banning isn't just about power level, its about removing cards that make for "bad" games. A steal effect in the CZ that is, lets face it, universally useful, very swingy, and hits early means that the Dack player is X times more likely to get sol ring by turn 3, where X is the number of opponents, than the typical deck. Don't underestimate the rattlesnake factor of people wanting to hold back their rocks, even their more fair rocks, because Dack can steal them early. Mana rocks, even excluding sol ring, mana crypt, and mana vault, are the backbone of this format. Signets, manaliths, etc are in practically every deck. Dack doesn't just give a boost to his owner, he nerfs an opponent and discourages everyone else from playing their artifacts. His presence in the CZ I believe creates an undesirable game state, where actually playing the cards you draw is the wrong play, with no set up from the person running Dack, while also damaging the primary way non green decks can combat mana and color screw.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
But I agree that dack creates unfavorable gamestates if hes in the CZ. While not easily abusable his +1 and -2 are always useful, and there are still some cards that can makepretty good use of his abilities. If Vraska, Relic Seeker is on the watchlist I really thing Dack should be too.
My Playgroup agreed to try that out for one or two weeks but it will take the guys a while to build their decks. Since we pretty much dissolve our themed decks after we played a couple of games with them most of us will use what they have and not go out of their way to get new stuff. So I thought about going either Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge,Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner or Nissa, Steward of Elements.
What I don’t understand is why would you want to advocate for Planeswalker Commanders and tie it to a starting life total change and bringing back the BaaC list. Just allowing Planeswalkers in the Command zone is a big enough change to contemplate, so why complicate the situation even more?
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Yep, exactly that. The smartest way to test to see if something is valid or not, you should try to test one variable at a time to isolate the results of that variable.
Though to be honest, i think the RC is not going to budge on the PW as general nor the 30 life thing. PWs are going to make cards like tezzeret the seeker banned, which isn't what players want, and the 30 life thing is going to make battlecruiser magic significantly harder to do - and that is what draws many newer players to this format. the Banned as a commander thing i can see coming back though, but the final effect would be so minor that i'm not even sure its worth the effort.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
This will inevitably lead to a bigger banlist and many people will have problems to keep track of all that.
As an experienced player I will say that the list of interesting generals is not nearly as big as it seems and I am already at the point of boredom with existing options.
So adding pws as commanders would give you what, like 5 more options? I highly doubt you've exhausted all the interesting commanders, and the few potentially interesting pw commanders would hardly solve your problem, you'd exhaust them pretty quickly.
For the guy you responded to, OP is proposing a format variant rather than a rules change. This has value in that it could allow playgroups that want to run PW commanders a good starting point to go by without having to figure out what's busted and unfun for themselves, making it more likely that playgroups can run PW nights successfully. It accomplishes this without forcing a change on the larger format.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
My way of dealing with this is to try to do the opposite of what the general seems to want to be. My zedruu the greathearted voltron deck is sort of the epitome of that. No one expects zedruu to get pumped to 13+ power and attack with double strike.
I'm not sure necessary changing the rules is what the community needs. I think static, reliable rules are good. That being said, I think an emphasis on local groups having local house-rules is probably something that everyone needs. It did take a bit of time for me to convince my playgroup that we'd transcended the need for the RC to dictate how we play EDH, and our group's gotten better for it. Not to demean what the RC does though; they generally do a good job - it's just that my group isn't exactly their target.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I can see someone getting bored for that reason, but anybody that does should also realize how shallow the pool of interesting PW commanders is and how quickly they'd get bored of those for the same reason. Interesting PWs, those that aren't just good stuff value engines, are all pretty narrow, and optimized lists would be out as quickly for them as for any other linear commander like Neo Arcades. Very few actually do something that isn't already done by a legend in their colors (and most of those are already legal as commanders because they were designed to be). Allowing PW commanders would not solve his problem, if he's actually being honest about it.
This variant doesn't solve the variety issue. Nothing will solve the optimized list issue, you just have to, like you said, build outside the box and accept your deck not being optimized for the commander (but obviously you can optimize it for the build). What this variant does solve is the flavor argument. It simply gives people a framework to use to do something they want to do. It doesn't need any reasons to justify it beyond "some people want this" because it's not being forced on anyone, its just an option. That also gives the people experimenting with this more options to tweak the ban list to make this actually work.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
so i've recently (in the last month or so) discovered a variant called oathbreaker. It's probably what the OP wants to see made. Being a 60-card singleton means that it's possible to have multiple 'optimal builds', since each deck can have a much narrow focus. For example, i built new saheeli with transmute artifact, another with blasphemous act, with thoughtcast and with treasure cruise. None are more an obvious build than the other, and they all play quite differently from each other.
But yea, back to onering's comment, i agree with the flavour argument. Though In a weird way, oathbreaker goes too far with the flavour; how is it possible for saheeli to chuck mountains onto the field before she gets cast? 'Cuz on that level, EDH should have a signature spell (which represents what we can do, and can cast it whenevers), and a general (a magic familiar). But i think its not really worth overhauling the game to make that work. Could be a silly alternative format though.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom