I'm almost positive that one of them (I believe it was BKM) at one point said that Doubling Season would be snap banned if they legalized all Planeswalkers.
I'm almost positive that one of them (I believe it was BKM) at one point said that Doubling Season would be snap banned if they legalized all Planeswalkers.
Yeah, I"m decently sure I saw that at some point as well. Tbh my biggest concern would be the return of BaaC and Sheldon's semi apocalyptic prediction of the list if it returned.
OPs central premise is flawed as it misunderstands the flavor of both commander at magic as a whole. You ALREADY play as a planeswalker. That's the role you take on in any game of magic, and has been for 25 years. The player IS a planeswalker, not one created by wizards but a player character. This is true of commander as well. You don't play as your commander, they are just the character you have chosen to serve as a commander for your armies. Before the rename, when it was still called EDH, your commander was called your general, which clearly illustrates the role they were meant to play. They are the Witch King to your Sauron, the Ridley to your Mother Brain, the Red Ranger to your Zordon, the Darth Vader to your Palpatine.
Thus, allowing planeswalkers as commanders does nothing to further "the central fantasy of magic". You would never be playing as Jace, youd be playing as Jace's boss. There is a flavor argument for allowing that, but it's not worth the headaches it would cause. As we can see from the planeswalkers printed explicitly for commander, it is much more difficult to create planeswalkers that make for good commanders than it is for creatires. Most of them are either way too weak and boring or way too strong and combo oriented. Freyalise and Windgrace are kind of, sort of, in that extremely narrow range where they do enough to be worth it but aren't oppressive and repetitive. Most regular planeswalkers would, as commanders, also slot into either the laughably weak category or the groan inducing on reveal category. JTMS would suck, Karn would be kill on sight, and very little would fall in between. Adding all walkers as commanders wouldn't add much to the format except a lot of trap commanders that rope in noobs and some linear combo commanders that create the sort of games the RC doesn't want to promote. They won't ban Teferi or Daretti for doing this, because it's not bannable, but they certainly won't change a fundamental feature of the format solely to invite more of it, with a side order of frustrating noobs who wonder why Jace sucks so much as a commander.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Who probably make really cool decks for colors that struggle to find a reasonable power level in EDH due to color pie issues.
I keep waffling personally but I think power level alone winds up being a bad argument because there are plenty of creatures more powerful than even cards like Tezzeret the Seeker who is probably the strongest potential PW commander (see Thrasios or Tymna or even Zur).
I do see the argument that if your commander essentially provides a repeated powerful sorcery every cast it creates the potential for some weird gamestates; playing with Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury even can be kind of oppressive in casual games (almost like having Aura Shards as your commander).
There are some PW effects that aren't really replicated on legendary creatures such as unrestricted artifact/creature removal or game winning ultimates, and those will create different game states.
Also, you wind up with some of the similar removal void issues where Red/Black can't deal with enchantments, a lot of colors will struggle to answer Planeswalkers efficiently enough.
----------------------------------------
I think I see all the angles and I don't think that the banlist would wind up needing to be too big, but I do feel pretty strongly they need to close the counter loophole for Loyalty -- being able to Deepglow skate your commander is too much.
You'd wind up with a situation as is where there's a much more varied assortment of commanders who are functionally part of 2 card combos - 'problems' we have today with stuff like Niv Mizzet and Curiosity or Azami and Mind over Matter -- but now you've got a card that is Doomblade, plus draw a card, plus win the game in combo with Doubling Season.
So I'm inclined to wait and see still myself the more I think about it. But I really do see some advantages as well.
Who probably make really cool decks for colors that struggle to find a reasonable power level in EDH due to color pie issues.
I keep waffling personally but I think power level alone winds up being a bad argument because there are plenty of creatures more powerful than even cards like Tezzeret the Seeker who is probably the strongest potential PW commander (see Thrasios or Tymna or even Zur).
I do see the argument that if your commander essentially provides a repeated powerful sorcery every cast it creates the potential for some weird gamestates; playing with Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury even can be kind of oppressive in casual games (almost like having Aura Shards as your commander).
There are some PW effects that aren't really replicated on legendary creatures such as unrestricted artifact/creature removal or game winning ultimates, and those will create different game states.
Also, you wind up with some of the similar removal void issues where Red/Black can't deal with enchantments, a lot of colors will struggle to answer Planeswalkers efficiently enough.
----------------------------------------
I think I see all the angles and I don't think that the banlist would wind up needing to be too big, but I do feel pretty strongly they need to close the counter loophole for Loyalty -- being able to Deepglow skate your commander is too much.
You'd wind up with a situation as is where there's a much more varied assortment of commanders who are functionally part of 2 card combos - 'problems' we have today with stuff like Niv Mizzet and Curiosity or Azami and Mind over Matter -- but now you've got a card that is Doomblade, plus draw a card, plus win the game in combo with Doubling Season.
So I'm inclined to wait and see still myself the more I think about it. But I really do see some advantages as well.
All good points. The thing is, while I think that the arguments against pw as commanders are more compelling than those for, it's not a clearly one sided debate. Both arguments have merit. The issue is that even if it were flipped, and I found the arguments for pw commanders more compelling by the same degree, we aren't talking about a new format, but one that is well established and whose major feature, and arguably the most defining feature, is that you have a legendary creature as a commander, and changing that requires the arguments for doing so to be overwhelming, like the change to the color identity rule was.
I get that the walkers printed specifically for commander broaches the subject, but they also haven't been great arguments for opening it up even more, again as most are either just bad as commanders or confirm the fears of people who are against the idea. They also showed that wizards has rules technology to allow it on a limited basis. Brawl has done a bit to further the argument by normalizing pw commanders more, but it remains to be seen if brawl will have staying power once it goes through a couple rotations, let alone whether it ever becomes anywhere near as popular as commander (and right now, signs are pointing to "maybe if everything goes right" and "no" respectively).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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You probably want http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36937_Ask-The-Commander-Rules-Committee-Other-Than-Me.html - search for Planeswalkers.
Yep that was it
Gag, I was close. Thanks for the clarification and verification.
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Not hot on PW commanders, but I liked BaaC.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Thus, allowing planeswalkers as commanders does nothing to further "the central fantasy of magic". You would never be playing as Jace, youd be playing as Jace's boss. There is a flavor argument for allowing that, but it's not worth the headaches it would cause. As we can see from the planeswalkers printed explicitly for commander, it is much more difficult to create planeswalkers that make for good commanders than it is for creatires. Most of them are either way too weak and boring or way too strong and combo oriented. Freyalise and Windgrace are kind of, sort of, in that extremely narrow range where they do enough to be worth it but aren't oppressive and repetitive. Most regular planeswalkers would, as commanders, also slot into either the laughably weak category or the groan inducing on reveal category. JTMS would suck, Karn would be kill on sight, and very little would fall in between. Adding all walkers as commanders wouldn't add much to the format except a lot of trap commanders that rope in noobs and some linear combo commanders that create the sort of games the RC doesn't want to promote. They won't ban Teferi or Daretti for doing this, because it's not bannable, but they certainly won't change a fundamental feature of the format solely to invite more of it, with a side order of frustrating noobs who wonder why Jace sucks so much as a commander.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Nahiri, the harbinger
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
Who probably make really cool decks for colors that struggle to find a reasonable power level in EDH due to color pie issues.
I keep waffling personally but I think power level alone winds up being a bad argument because there are plenty of creatures more powerful than even cards like Tezzeret the Seeker who is probably the strongest potential PW commander (see Thrasios or Tymna or even Zur).
I do see the argument that if your commander essentially provides a repeated powerful sorcery every cast it creates the potential for some weird gamestates; playing with Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury even can be kind of oppressive in casual games (almost like having Aura Shards as your commander).
There are some PW effects that aren't really replicated on legendary creatures such as unrestricted artifact/creature removal or game winning ultimates, and those will create different game states.
Also, you wind up with some of the similar removal void issues where Red/Black can't deal with enchantments, a lot of colors will struggle to answer Planeswalkers efficiently enough.
----------------------------------------
I think I see all the angles and I don't think that the banlist would wind up needing to be too big, but I do feel pretty strongly they need to close the counter loophole for Loyalty -- being able to Deepglow skate your commander is too much.
You'd wind up with a situation as is where there's a much more varied assortment of commanders who are functionally part of 2 card combos - 'problems' we have today with stuff like Niv Mizzet and Curiosity or Azami and Mind over Matter -- but now you've got a card that is Doomblade, plus draw a card, plus win the game in combo with Doubling Season.
So I'm inclined to wait and see still myself the more I think about it. But I really do see some advantages as well.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
All good points. The thing is, while I think that the arguments against pw as commanders are more compelling than those for, it's not a clearly one sided debate. Both arguments have merit. The issue is that even if it were flipped, and I found the arguments for pw commanders more compelling by the same degree, we aren't talking about a new format, but one that is well established and whose major feature, and arguably the most defining feature, is that you have a legendary creature as a commander, and changing that requires the arguments for doing so to be overwhelming, like the change to the color identity rule was.
I get that the walkers printed specifically for commander broaches the subject, but they also haven't been great arguments for opening it up even more, again as most are either just bad as commanders or confirm the fears of people who are against the idea. They also showed that wizards has rules technology to allow it on a limited basis. Brawl has done a bit to further the argument by normalizing pw commanders more, but it remains to be seen if brawl will have staying power once it goes through a couple rotations, let alone whether it ever becomes anywhere near as popular as commander (and right now, signs are pointing to "maybe if everything goes right" and "no" respectively).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!