well, "it dies to removal" isn't chucked into the discussion of whether or not it or anything else should be banned (or at least i'd hope so). Everything dies to removal in the game of magic, so it's a bit of a non-discussion. its not like the game before theros had a lack of removal spells either.
My assumption is that the combination of having an extra untap step during every other player's turn and the mini vedalken orrery is simply too game-warping for a single card to do.
i personally care a tiny bit, since it was a key part to my 'skip all your turns' anti-extra-turn-meta deck, but i can see how it can warp other playgroups' decks and/or metas.
I never saw an issue with it to begin with so yea I am on board to remove it from the list. I honestly never really ran it and while there was a person or two who would run it we would run it / him down most of the time when he would play it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Like the title says, can Prophet of Kruphix return after a few years of being banned?
With all the new removal, I say yes.
What a perfect example of a non-costructive comment.
You talk about "new removals", yet you don't name them or explain how these new removal are better than the old ones.
Because honestly we could
exie the prophet for W (swords to plowshares)
kill her for U (pongify)
kill her for 1B (doom blade)
shuffle her back for 2R (chaos warp)
kill her for 2G (beast within)
I don't get what those "new removals" are doing better than these old removals.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, so I'm going to say it now. Prophet of Kruphix will almost certainly never be unbanned because the Rules Committee is extremely reluctant to unban anything.
Now, that's not to say the Rules Committee has never unbanned cards. They certainly have, and we have the relatively recent unbanning of Protean Hulk as evidence of that, but given just how long it's taken the Rules Committee to unban cards like Protean Hulk, Kokusho, and Worldgorger Dragon, cards that, for the longest time, weren't anywhere near as problematic as perhaps they once were, there's little to no chance that a card like Prophet of Kruphix will be unbanned anytime soon since it is still perceived to be a problem (and rightfully so). Currently, we've still got cards on the banned list like Panoptic Mirror and Painter's Servant that still are very much like the Kokushos, and Worldgorgers of yesteryear, and if the Rules Committee has yet to address those cards (or continues to perceive them as being problematic), then Prophet of Kruphix isn't going anywhere.
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The biggest problem I saw with PoK (and I ran it in my Animar, Soul of Elements deck) was how it could drastically slow the game down. There were times my plays on an opponents turn took longer than theirs.
Let's look at the ban criteria and see how PoK matches up to each, rated on a scale of 1 to 5 (based on my opinion, insert your own rating) with 1 being not at all and 5 being extreme.
1 Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander. Commander introduces specific structural differences to the game of Magic (notably singleton decks, color restrictions in deckbuilding, and the existence of a Commander). Magic cards not designed with Commander in mind sometimes interact with those elements in ways that change the effective functionality of the card. Cards that have moved too far (in a potentially problematic direction) from their original intent due to this mismatch are candidates for banning. This criterion also includes legendary creatures that are problematic if always available.
I'd rate it a 2. Being multiplayer makes its effect more powerful for each opponent. This is often irrelevant, as most cards that are improved by multiplayer aren't improved to such a degree that it becomes problematic at all. PoK's effect is pretty powerful already even with just one opponent, and I'd say that the amount of added value you get from this card when you play it in multiplayer is so great as to warrant it as interacting poorly with the format, though only mildly so. However, it also has some other issues that aren't related to power level that are also exacerbated by the multiplayer nature of the format, and the combined effect of this raises it to a 2 for me. This alone isn't nearly enough to warrant a banning, but can help tip a card that's borderline over the edge. Since the RC is adverse to making changes, being biased to the status quo, it would be unlikely to impact a decision to ban a card, but might impact a decision to leave a card banned.
2. Creates Undesirable Game States. Losing is not an undesirable game state. However, a game in which one or more players, playing comparable casual decks, have minimal participation in the game is something which players should be steered away from. Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere.
I'd rate this as a 3, as it creates a moderate problem in this arena. It slows down games, and causes a single player to monopolize the game, all on its own. I don't mean in terms of dominating the board or making the most powerful plays, I mean in terms of how much time they end up being the active player, making decisions and plays, while other players wait. With PoK, you get your turn, and you get a semi turn on everyone else's turn (you don't get to attack or your draw step on their turn, but you get a fresh turn worth of mana and tap effects, basically main phases). It takes real world time for the PoK player to take advantage of this, time the rest of the table spends waiting. Because it is so effective at doing this, and unlike stax or infinite turns does not require a combo or a dedicated strategy to do so, its moderately problematic. This isn't enough on its own to warrant a ban, but is enough to sway a decision when taken with other factors.
3 Problematic Casual Omnipresence. Some cards are so powerful that they become must-includes in decks that can run them and have a strongly negative impact on the games in which they appear, even when not built to optimize their effect. This does not include cards which are part of a specifc two-card combination - there are too many of those available in the format to usefully preclude - but may include cards which have numerous combinations with other commonly-played cards.
This is a 5. This card was highly played, and showed up very often in real life and online. It had a serious and pronounced centralizing effect on games that it was present in and the format as a whole. Games became about getting PoK asap, or stealing PoK from your opponent's deck with Bribery effects, from the battlefield with control magic effects, or graveyard with reanimator effects. Such effects became increasingly played because of the likelihood of being able to use them to get an opponent's prophet, and the fact that was a very desirable thing to do in any casual game. While PoK was a bit too slow to dominate cEDH in the same way, it was more than fast enough to become a premier strategy in casual. This is sometimes enough on its own to ban a card on its own. In PoK's case, its probably borderline, needing other violations to tip it into ban territory.
* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. Commander is a format devoted to splashy spells and epic plays, but they need to happen at appropriate times. Some acceleration is acceptable, but plays which are epic on turn ten are undesirable on turn three, so we rein in cards capable of generating a lot of mana early given the correct circumstances.
This is a 2. It does produce too much mana too quickly, but you can't access it all in one shot (its spread between untaps) which mitigates this. More importantly, its on the border territory between the early game and middle game for casual. Too much too fast matters more in the early game, and at some point the "too fast" part is lost entirely and no amount becomes too much. PoK pushes what is acceptable for turn 5, but not enough to be problematic. Earlier than turn 5, it starts to become problematic, mildly so turn 4, significantly so turn 3. This is not mitigated by having less mana available on those turns (unless you cheated it out) because you had the 5 mana to cast it, and getting that three or four more times that round is a problem. It is however mitigated by the fact that you need help to get this to happen, from rocks or other ramp, so it won't happen all the time and its not doing it all on its own. Overall, it ends up being only mildly problematic.
* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Commander is a socially welcoming format with a vast cardpool. These two traits clash when it comes to certain early Magic cards, even if they would possibly be acceptable in their game play. It's not enough that the card is simply expensive. It must also be something that would be near-universally played if available and contribute to a perception that the format is only for the Vintage audience.
This is a 1, completely irrelevant.
Overall, the card deserved to be banned and should stay there. It was a poster child for problematic casual omnipresence and the centralizing aspect of it, and in addition creates moderately problematic undesirable game states with regularity, which is enough combined to warrant the ban. Also being mildly problematic in terms of too much mana too fast and interacting poorly with the multiplayer aspect of the format helps cement this.
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Like the title says, can Prophet of Kruphix return after a few years of being banned?
With all the new removal, I say yes.
What a perfect example of a non-costructive comment.
You talk about "new removals", yet you don't name them or explain how these new removal are better than the old ones.
Because honestly we could
exie the prophet for W (swords to plowshares)
kill her for U (pongify)
kill her for 1B (doom blade)
shuffle her back for 2R (chaos warp)
kill her for 2G (beast within)
I don't get what those "new removals" are doing better than these old removals.
I think the equal issue with PoK is not just the value she provides(and that everyone immediately wants), but also dovetails into the 'run more removal' argument.
I seem to be running into a roadblock on this(oracle text searching is a pain), but I wonder what the final count would be if we were to count damage, destruction and exile spells/effects against theft, mind control and reanimate spells/effects? Counters should be left out, because most of them can go either way. But I think that's the main problem with PoK coming off the banned list: the answer is not as glib as 'run more removal' if you've got to outpace not just the counters your opponent(s) may have, but also their reanimation, their theft, AND their mind control effects. I wonder if it would be possible to necessitate building a deck with so much removal as to push out everything else resembling a win-con.
No, that doesn't sound like a salty player...that sounds like someone doing exactly what they were told to survive.
You indirectly answered your own questions. If you listed so many answers already, why is it broken in the first place?????????
Because realistically speaking, even if the entire pod is playing decks that are at least 15% removal some of those are going to be sorcery speed, some of those are going to be spent on other things, and others just aren't going to pop up, which would probably be fine for most cards. The problem with PoK is what was said before, it's an effect -everyone- wants so people are going to be trying to copy, reanimate, or steal it, so now suddenly you need to kill it a second or third time, and hopefully you can kill it each time before it becomes a psuedo time walk or time stretch or the person who controls it can reasonably get pretty far ahead... and now you'll need removal for the PoK AND the other threats she's brought down quicker than normal.
In generally I agree that people should run more removal, and I've seen people who hate that argument and yet have literally 0 removal in their decks, but I don't think PoK is an issue that's solved simply by running more removal. Although I always get sad when I cast my Seedborn Muse because it's not a PoK, I'd rather it stay banned.
And yes, the only really good removal thats come out in the past few years for EDH, at least as far as I can remember, is Trophy and that literally just came out.
What you say: PoK is too powerful.
All I hear: I am reluctant to pack in answers.
Reasons (Excuses)? I don't want to dilute my deck.
Answers are answers to every threat.
Isn't that true? Don't flame me please. Just my perception.
My decks tend to play a fair number of answers. My objection to Prophet has nothing to do with it being difficult to answer, because it isn't. My objection has to do with it being undercosted for how much game effect it has, and how problematic some of those game effects (slowing down the game, centralizing, etc.) can be.
Your perception is not based in reality. Try actually reading the replies others make on this thread.
You indirectly answered your own questions. If you listed so many answers already, why is it broken in the first place?????????
Because realistically speaking, even if the entire pod is playing decks that are at least 15% removal some of those are going to be sorcery speed, some of those are going to be spent on other things, and others just aren't going to pop up, which would probably be fine for most cards. The problem with PoK is what was said before, it's an effect -everyone- wants so people are going to be trying to copy, reanimate, or steal it, so now suddenly you need to kill it a second or third time, and hopefully you can kill it each time before it becomes a psuedo time walk or time stretch or the person who controls it can reasonably get pretty far ahead... and now you'll need removal for the PoK AND the other threats she's brought down quicker than normal.
In generally I agree that people should run more removal, and I've seen people who hate that argument and yet have literally 0 removal in their decks, but I don't think PoK is an issue that's solved simply by running more removal. Although I always get sad when I cast my Seedborn Muse because it's not a PoK, I'd rather it stay banned.
And yes, the only really good removal thats come out in the past few years for EDH, at least as far as I can remember, is Trophy and that literally just came out.
You indirectly answered your own questions. If you listed so many answers already, why is it broken in the first place?????????
Because the same can be said of any card.
POK is a danger because it combines two cards: Seedborn Muse and a creatures-only Vedalken Orrery. You get a huge tempo boost with those two abilities out at once. (In fact, one of my favorite Stax tricks is to combine them with Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory, for even more of a tempo win. Note that that takes three cards now.)
The problem is, that tempo boost can carry the game away while your opponents are fishing for a removal.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
PoK is one of the best creatures in the style of deck and the power level that if you read enough about and talk to a enough people is the levels in which the format should live, so it only makes sense to remove it from the picture on those basis alone I guess. Even though a lot of peoples games (mine included) will never care if that card is banned or not.
You indirectly answered your own questions. If you listed so many answers already, why is it broken in the first place?????????
This is the wrong question. It's not "how is this card broken with so many answers to it?", but rather "if this card is considered broken with so many answers to it, how does printing more answers make it less broken?" The answer, of course, is: "it doesn't".
With all the new removal, I say yes.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
My assumption is that the combination of having an extra untap step during every other player's turn and the mini vedalken orrery is simply too game-warping for a single card to do.
i personally care a tiny bit, since it was a key part to my 'skip all your turns' anti-extra-turn-meta deck, but i can see how it can warp other playgroups' decks and/or metas.
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You could also kill her for R (Lightning Bolt or Galvanic Blast in the right deck), shuffle her back in for 2W (Oblation), kill her for B in the right deck (Tragic Slip), kill her for BB (Grasp of Darkness), counter her for 1U (Remove Soul, Essence Scatter), kill her for 1(R/G) (Pit Fight), kill her for G in the right deck (Mutant's Prey), counter her and exile her for 1UU (Dissipate), or just make her partner (who can be killed for 1W, G, or R, by the way) irrelevant some way. Or if you really want to give someone the finger...
What are these "new removals" that make a broken card no longer broken?
On phasing:
There's no other card I've played that immediately turns the game so one sided unless answered.
Since Expropriate, Cyclonic Rift, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Baral, Chief of Compliance, Deadeye Navigator, Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Cryptic Command, Consecrated Sphinx all exist and aren't banned, I find this statement hard to believe.
Now, that's not to say the Rules Committee has never unbanned cards. They certainly have, and we have the relatively recent unbanning of Protean Hulk as evidence of that, but given just how long it's taken the Rules Committee to unban cards like Protean Hulk, Kokusho, and Worldgorger Dragon, cards that, for the longest time, weren't anywhere near as problematic as perhaps they once were, there's little to no chance that a card like Prophet of Kruphix will be unbanned anytime soon since it is still perceived to be a problem (and rightfully so). Currently, we've still got cards on the banned list like Panoptic Mirror and Painter's Servant that still are very much like the Kokushos, and Worldgorgers of yesteryear, and if the Rules Committee has yet to address those cards (or continues to perceive them as being problematic), then Prophet of Kruphix isn't going anywhere.
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1 Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander. Commander introduces specific structural differences to the game of Magic (notably singleton decks, color restrictions in deckbuilding, and the existence of a Commander). Magic cards not designed with Commander in mind sometimes interact with those elements in ways that change the effective functionality of the card. Cards that have moved too far (in a potentially problematic direction) from their original intent due to this mismatch are candidates for banning. This criterion also includes legendary creatures that are problematic if always available.
I'd rate it a 2. Being multiplayer makes its effect more powerful for each opponent. This is often irrelevant, as most cards that are improved by multiplayer aren't improved to such a degree that it becomes problematic at all. PoK's effect is pretty powerful already even with just one opponent, and I'd say that the amount of added value you get from this card when you play it in multiplayer is so great as to warrant it as interacting poorly with the format, though only mildly so. However, it also has some other issues that aren't related to power level that are also exacerbated by the multiplayer nature of the format, and the combined effect of this raises it to a 2 for me. This alone isn't nearly enough to warrant a banning, but can help tip a card that's borderline over the edge. Since the RC is adverse to making changes, being biased to the status quo, it would be unlikely to impact a decision to ban a card, but might impact a decision to leave a card banned.
2. Creates Undesirable Game States. Losing is not an undesirable game state. However, a game in which one or more players, playing comparable casual decks, have minimal participation in the game is something which players should be steered away from. Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere.
I'd rate this as a 3, as it creates a moderate problem in this arena. It slows down games, and causes a single player to monopolize the game, all on its own. I don't mean in terms of dominating the board or making the most powerful plays, I mean in terms of how much time they end up being the active player, making decisions and plays, while other players wait. With PoK, you get your turn, and you get a semi turn on everyone else's turn (you don't get to attack or your draw step on their turn, but you get a fresh turn worth of mana and tap effects, basically main phases). It takes real world time for the PoK player to take advantage of this, time the rest of the table spends waiting. Because it is so effective at doing this, and unlike stax or infinite turns does not require a combo or a dedicated strategy to do so, its moderately problematic. This isn't enough on its own to warrant a ban, but is enough to sway a decision when taken with other factors.
3 Problematic Casual Omnipresence. Some cards are so powerful that they become must-includes in decks that can run them and have a strongly negative impact on the games in which they appear, even when not built to optimize their effect. This does not include cards which are part of a specifc two-card combination - there are too many of those available in the format to usefully preclude - but may include cards which have numerous combinations with other commonly-played cards.
This is a 5. This card was highly played, and showed up very often in real life and online. It had a serious and pronounced centralizing effect on games that it was present in and the format as a whole. Games became about getting PoK asap, or stealing PoK from your opponent's deck with Bribery effects, from the battlefield with control magic effects, or graveyard with reanimator effects. Such effects became increasingly played because of the likelihood of being able to use them to get an opponent's prophet, and the fact that was a very desirable thing to do in any casual game. While PoK was a bit too slow to dominate cEDH in the same way, it was more than fast enough to become a premier strategy in casual. This is sometimes enough on its own to ban a card on its own. In PoK's case, its probably borderline, needing other violations to tip it into ban territory.
* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. Commander is a format devoted to splashy spells and epic plays, but they need to happen at appropriate times. Some acceleration is acceptable, but plays which are epic on turn ten are undesirable on turn three, so we rein in cards capable of generating a lot of mana early given the correct circumstances.
This is a 2. It does produce too much mana too quickly, but you can't access it all in one shot (its spread between untaps) which mitigates this. More importantly, its on the border territory between the early game and middle game for casual. Too much too fast matters more in the early game, and at some point the "too fast" part is lost entirely and no amount becomes too much. PoK pushes what is acceptable for turn 5, but not enough to be problematic. Earlier than turn 5, it starts to become problematic, mildly so turn 4, significantly so turn 3. This is not mitigated by having less mana available on those turns (unless you cheated it out) because you had the 5 mana to cast it, and getting that three or four more times that round is a problem. It is however mitigated by the fact that you need help to get this to happen, from rocks or other ramp, so it won't happen all the time and its not doing it all on its own. Overall, it ends up being only mildly problematic.
* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Commander is a socially welcoming format with a vast cardpool. These two traits clash when it comes to certain early Magic cards, even if they would possibly be acceptable in their game play. It's not enough that the card is simply expensive. It must also be something that would be near-universally played if available and contribute to a perception that the format is only for the Vintage audience.
This is a 1, completely irrelevant.
Overall, the card deserved to be banned and should stay there. It was a poster child for problematic casual omnipresence and the centralizing aspect of it, and in addition creates moderately problematic undesirable game states with regularity, which is enough combined to warrant the ban. Also being mildly problematic in terms of too much mana too fast and interacting poorly with the multiplayer aspect of the format helps cement this.
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All I hear: I am reluctant to pack in answers.
Reasons (Excuses)? I don't want to dilute my deck.
Answers are answers to every threat.
Isn't that true? Don't flame me please. Just my perception.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
You indirectly answered your own questions. If you listed so many answers already, why is it broken in the first place?????????
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
I seem to be running into a roadblock on this(oracle text searching is a pain), but I wonder what the final count would be if we were to count damage, destruction and exile spells/effects against theft, mind control and reanimate spells/effects? Counters should be left out, because most of them can go either way. But I think that's the main problem with PoK coming off the banned list: the answer is not as glib as 'run more removal' if you've got to outpace not just the counters your opponent(s) may have, but also their reanimation, their theft, AND their mind control effects. I wonder if it would be possible to necessitate building a deck with so much removal as to push out everything else resembling a win-con.
No, that doesn't sound like a salty player...that sounds like someone doing exactly what they were told to survive.
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5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Because realistically speaking, even if the entire pod is playing decks that are at least 15% removal some of those are going to be sorcery speed, some of those are going to be spent on other things, and others just aren't going to pop up, which would probably be fine for most cards. The problem with PoK is what was said before, it's an effect -everyone- wants so people are going to be trying to copy, reanimate, or steal it, so now suddenly you need to kill it a second or third time, and hopefully you can kill it each time before it becomes a psuedo time walk or time stretch or the person who controls it can reasonably get pretty far ahead... and now you'll need removal for the PoK AND the other threats she's brought down quicker than normal.
In generally I agree that people should run more removal, and I've seen people who hate that argument and yet have literally 0 removal in their decks, but I don't think PoK is an issue that's solved simply by running more removal. Although I always get sad when I cast my Seedborn Muse because it's not a PoK, I'd rather it stay banned.
And yes, the only really good removal thats come out in the past few years for EDH, at least as far as I can remember, is Trophy and that literally just came out.
> "Don't flame me please"
> mocks everyone who disagrees
My decks tend to play a fair number of answers. My objection to Prophet has nothing to do with it being difficult to answer, because it isn't. My objection has to do with it being undercosted for how much game effect it has, and how problematic some of those game effects (slowing down the game, centralizing, etc.) can be.
Your perception is not based in reality. Try actually reading the replies others make on this thread.
If you were tapped out when PoK was cast, you would never get the chance to kill it.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
This is a good answer.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Because the same can be said of any card.
POK is a danger because it combines two cards: Seedborn Muse and a creatures-only Vedalken Orrery. You get a huge tempo boost with those two abilities out at once. (In fact, one of my favorite Stax tricks is to combine them with Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory, for even more of a tempo win. Note that that takes three cards now.)
The problem is, that tempo boost can carry the game away while your opponents are fishing for a removal.
On phasing:
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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