I'll be frank and honest, I play Torment of Hailfire in Gitrog, and it's very strong and I would miss it. But I think it's probably about time to have a discussion about it. I'm seeing it everywhere and it often doesn't even end the game (just kills and bankrupts multiple players).
What I've found is it's just another one of those "make a bunch of mana, win the game" cards like Genesis Wave and Exsanguinate but it's a card that is very difficult to interact with aside from the stack; your defenses all have to be up early (draw a ton of cards, maintain a huge board, attack caster's mana).
But unlike G-wave, most colors cannot interact with it on the stack; it's pretty much Blue (counter, copy, steal) and slightly Red (copy, redirect). And unlike Genesis Wave, it's significantly more mana efficient (a casting for 15-ish will instantly end the game, whereas G-wave usually needs to be 30+ to be guaranteed victory). I've seen the card off the top randomly end a lot of games for X=8-9 as well, in games where the old standby of Exsanguinate would have needed X=20 or more. And every color can interact with Wave somehow (removal spells, copies, torpor orb effects, attack tax effects, containment priest, etc., etc.)
In short, I don't think this card interacts very well with the commander format; it's essentially a 1-card combo with enough black mana, which can be cast for incremental value. It feels like it's going to become ubiquitous (it already has in my meta) in spell-based combo (or combo-control) as a finisher, and I think it might just be too efficient (needing ~20 mana instead of ~50 mana to win the game like most X spells).
It does compare fairly unfavorably to Tooth and Nail - an X=7 hailfire is a lot less likely to end the game than a T&N, but on the flipside T&N has some fair applications and every color has instant speed removal that can answer Tooth combos.
But before jumping on the "Ban!" train I'm very curious if I'm the only one seeing this card so much.
Edit: Obviously I'm talking about the broader commander meta; this card probably isn't making a huge play in CEDH
I haven't seen it at all in my lgs, but I had been considering it for a ramp based deck I never built.
It doesnt seem like it's good enough unless its being cast for absurd or game ending amounts though. As a spot removal people can discard, take damage, or sac something else; and you can just shuffle around those if you wanted to discard or deal damage. The upside is that obviously it affects all the opponents, but it's more or less the same.
I've been killed by Torment of Hailfire recently (by Genesis Wave, too). Like you said, there's other cards that end the game with enough mana. I don't think it's ban-worthy, but it is strong.
Not necessarily? The most mana efficient "kill everyone with large amounts of mana without needing to resolve another spell" sorcery previously was Exsanguinate if you wanted it to actually kill them, which required X = the highest life total.
Enter the Infinite is close in that it will functionally win you the game, but it requires resolving another spell or three (and hence adds another option for White to interact, both hating on the card draw effect and hating on multiple spells and so on. I also don't know that I agree with the idea that resolving a single 9 (or 11) mana spell should win the game on the spot, doesn't seem like that's really proven.
The difference between other mana outlets and Torment is that Torment can both win by creating a lot of mana and also wins for sure by creating infinite mana; most infinite mana outlets are themselves fairly innocuous and inefficient (say, Valakut Invoker). Genesis Wave has a similar distinction but is interacted with by more angles.
If you compare Torment to similar X-spells like Comet Storm people have used, it takes a truly ridiculous amount of mana to end a table - but Torment does it for an itty bitty bit.
Thrasios, Tasigur, and Breya take offense to that.
Either way, Debt to the Deathless is much better at closing the game out than both Torment or Exanguinate and theres never been much of an issue. (24 mana for 40 life drain, vs 24 mana for 66 damage that be lowered to less than lethal (at 40) with 9 discards/sacs... which is back breaking but unless it involves infinite mana and depending on boardstate it shouldnt be too hard for at least two players to survive. A more realistic mana amount of 12 leads to 16 life loss on debt or 30 on torrent, but with 5 discards/sacs you're already doing less damage, which isnt what you want if youre trying to win.
Torrent has a much higher ceiling than Debt and the additional effrcts can be nice, but if you're trying to win off of it on the spot without infinite mana it's just too boardstate dependent. And if infinite mana is involved then it really doesn't matter since two other cards would have had the same exact effect or they could have won using any other number of infinite mana lines.
Not necessarily? The most mana efficient "kill everyone with large amounts of mana without needing to resolve another spell" sorcery previously was Exsanguinate if you wanted it to actually kill them, which required X = the highest life total.
Enter the Infinite is close in that it will functionally win you the game, but it requires resolving another spell or three (and hence adds another option for White to interact, both hating on the card draw effect and hating on multiple spells and so on. I also don't know that I agree with the idea that resolving a single 9 (or 11) mana spell should win the game on the spot, doesn't seem like that's really proven.
The difference between other mana outlets and Torment is that Torment can both win by creating a lot of mana and also wins for sure by creating infinite mana; most infinite mana outlets are themselves fairly innocuous and inefficient (say, Valakut Invoker). Genesis Wave has a similar distinction but is interacted with by more angles.
If you compare Torment to similar X-spells like Comet Storm people have used, it takes a truly ridiculous amount of mana to end a table - but Torment does it for an itty bitty bit.
Wins on the spot, all you have to do is have these cards in your deck, because you draw your whole deck, and each card except for laboratory maniac is a card you want to be running anyways in almost every blue deck. Accomplished by something as mundane as having 7 islands and high tide for example.
I don't think torment with 15 mana pumped into it should be the point of discussing it for banning, because at that point you are able to start casting multiple huge mana haymakers in the same turn.
Is torment a problem when cast with X = 6 or 7? That's a far more likely use case and it's competing against cards like razaketh, the foulblooded and rise of the dark realms. I don't think it's a problem at this mana cost. It's strong, but you expect your 8 and 9 mana spells to be strong.
It also scales linearly, whereas haymakers often scale stupidly. What I mean by this is for 5 mana you might expect to draw 4 cards in blue with a card like tidings. Then at 6 mana you might expect to draw 10+ with recurring insight or consecrated sphinx. And then at 12 mana you have enter the infinite which draws every card. Each point of mana increases the effect of the spell more than the previous. Torment is much more linear.
My view in general is anything costing more than 12 mana to be effective and isn't a creature (since those are easy to cheat in) isn't an issue in EDH.
I also don't know that I agree with the idea that resolving a single 9 (or 11) mana spell should win the game on the spot, doesn't seem like that's really proven.
That argument for T&N isn't an "is" statement (9+ mana spells end the game) that can be proven or disproven, it's an "ought" statement (9+ mana spells should be capable of ending the game) that can only be argued for or against. And whether you agree with the argument or not, applying the logic freuqently used to defend T&N to Torment suggests that Torment for X=15 is not an issue. Now, if you don't like that argument, you've got an entirely different discussion on your hands.
Wins on the spot, all you have to do is have these cards in your deck, because you draw your whole deck, and each card except for laboratory maniac is a card you want to be running anyways in almost every blue deck.
Highly competitive blue decks, I think you mean. I don't think a single blue deck I own (12) has all of those cards in it, though several of them have at least one.
Once people are at 15 mana, the game ending is a desirable game state, not an undesirable one. Torment does more than just win the game, it can function as a control/stax card if you need to wreck resources and can't pump enough mana into it to guarantee lethal. You can also do things like drop it early for X=3 in a 40 life format and watch people take 9 before they realize you're trying to burn everyone out. Its also not everywhere, showing up in every black deck and getting played every game.
This card meets not a single criteria for ban consideration. People need to understand how and why cards are banned in the format before proposing bans and unbans.
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In short, I don't think this card interacts very well with the commander format; it's essentially a 1-card combo with enough black mana, which can be cast for incremental value. It feels like it's going to become ubiquitous (it already has in my meta) in spell-based combo (or combo-control) as a finisher, and I think it might just be too efficient (needing ~20 mana instead of ~50 mana to win the game like most X spells).
EDH has pretty set criteria for banning. Which of them do you feel it violates?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
(I mean, not to be flip but "I don't think this card interacts well with the format" is the #1 commander banning criteria)
I'd say it's a candidate for:
1) Creates an Undesirable board state
-When cast for large amounts of mana that are not lethal it creates a state where everyone is nearly dead and has no permanents or cards in hand, and the caster has to durdle to victory
-When cast as a topdeck, has the potential to win games in ways that non-blue decks cannot interact with via any mechanism. This is arguable of course, but I've had a lot of games go that way--everyone's doing their stuff, someone topdecks Torment and kills the table (or tutors for it, etc.).
2) problematic casual omnipresence
-It's not there yet but I have had more than one game end by someone *copying* someone else's Torment of Hailfire. This is a bad sign to me. It's not at Sylvan Primordial level of ubiquity or anything but I'm seeing it everywhere.
3) Interacts poorly with the structure of Commander
Torment's "AOE" nature and high rate of mana payoff enables table kills from a much lower rate of mana than has ever been possible a single card. As noted Enter the Infinite is the only close comparison and it requires a bunch of crap to facilitate.
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I'm not saying it's necessarily all of those things but it could be a candidate for any of those three; it could just be my meta but I've seen a whole lot of torments.
I also don't find making 15 or whatever mana to be that particularly crazy. Making tons of mana in Commander is pretty easy; for the most part, killing a table requires resolving multiple cards that can be interacted with.
Most of the games I play go well past 15 mana, especially if I'm playing Gitrog; Hell, I hit 19 land drops with Ephara in one game tonight.
Again, not advocating strongly for a ban either, it's just something I've noticed that it's become the kinda de facto big mana black finisher of choice, and in most decks playing black that ramp.
That isn't necessarily a huge problem but the specific issue I've seen is how difficult it is to interact with. In general most sorceries require either 30+ mana or a combat step, or even resolving multiple other spells to win. The difference between 15 and 30 is a lot.
3) Interacts poorly with the structure of Commander
Torment's "AOE" nature and high rate of mana payoff enables table kills from a much lower rate of mana than has ever been possible a single card. As noted Enter the Infinite is the only close comparison and it requires a bunch of crap to facilitate.
I'll point out that this isn't true, and torment is in fact really low on the list of competitive win conditions.
Some examples of "win the game" spells people use that are *much* less mana than torment: ad nauseam wins the game if you build your deck around it, and is probably the current gold standard for "win the game" cards, because it's almost a 5 mana version of enter the infinite food chain wins the game with certain commanders paradox engine wins the game with sisay or arcum boonweaver giant wins the game if you have a sac outlet and pattern of rebirth + the other combo pieces in your deck protean hulk wins the game if you have the right creatures in your deck and it dies defense of the heart wins the game if it triggers and you have one of many 2 creature combos in your deck
Torment is a very strong card when you want to play slow grinding edh games and everyone builds slow grinding edh decks. This is my preferred way to play edh, games that go 15+ turns. Let's not go overboard and say it's competitive though.
(I mean, not to be flip but "I don't think this card interacts well with the format" is the #1 commander banning criteria)
I'd say it's a candidate for:
1) Creates an Undesirable board state
-When cast for large amounts of mana that are not lethal it creates a state where everyone is nearly dead and has no permanents or cards in hand, and the caster has to durdle to victory
-When cast as a topdeck, has the potential to win games in ways that non-blue decks cannot interact with via any mechanism. This is arguable of course, but I've had a lot of games go that way--everyone's doing their stuff, someone topdecks Torment and kills the table (or tutors for it, etc.).
2) problematic casual omnipresence
-It's not there yet but I have had more than one game end by someone *copying* someone else's Torment of Hailfire. This is a bad sign to me. It's not at Sylvan Primordial level of ubiquity or anything but I'm seeing it everywhere.
3) Interacts poorly with the structure of Commander
Torment's "AOE" nature and high rate of mana payoff enables table kills from a much lower rate of mana than has ever been possible a single card. As noted Enter the Infinite is the only close comparison and it requires a bunch of crap to facilitate.
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I'm not saying it's necessarily all of those things but it could be a candidate for any of those three; it could just be my meta but I've seen a whole lot of torments.
I also don't find making 15 or whatever mana to be that particularly crazy. Making tons of mana in Commander is pretty easy; for the most part, killing a table requires resolving multiple cards that can be interacted with.
Most of the games I play go well past 15 mana, especially if I'm playing Gitrog; Hell, I hit 19 land drops with Ephara in one game tonight.
Again, not advocating strongly for a ban either, it's just something I've noticed that it's become the kinda de facto big mana black finisher of choice, and in most decks playing black that ramp.
That isn't necessarily a huge problem but the specific issue I've seen is how difficult it is to interact with. In general most sorceries require either 30+ mana or a combat step, or even resolving multiple other spells to win. The difference between 15 and 30 is a lot.
1) wiping out boards for 15 mana is not an undesirable game state. If you are resolving a 15 mana sorcery and it decimates every player but you to the point they have no defense, you aren't going to durdle to victory, your going to likely close out the game in short order by attacking with your commander, if players don't just scoop of course.
2) problematic casual omnipresence requires two things to be true. First, it has to be omnipresent, which torment is not. Second, such omnipresence must be problematic, which torment is not. It doesn't warp games around it by making people go for it early and often or fight to control it. It will usually decide the games its cast in, but only because people will rarely cast it when it won't do that. Unlike prime time or prophet, torment isn't something you try to search up and cast asap, its something that sits in your hand waiting to be relevant
3) This is the only one that's even close. It interacts with the nature of the format in the same way that any AoE effect interacts with multiplayer: it gets better. How much better is a matter of debate, and I'd argue not nearly enough to warrant "interacts poorly. Firing off for X=13 in 1v1 is going to be as winning a move as firing it off in multiplayer. Real deal, it doesn't really do anything different in the format. It doesn't change how it functions, which is as a finisher that costs a bunch of mana to work.
Its a good card, but it doesn't meet any of the criteria. It also sucks versus certain archetypes, like tokens. Its a greifer card that gives opponents a choice, so its much weaker than 3 life per mana. Pump 15 mana into it, and each player can discard a couple cards, sac a couple extra lands, and sac a few of their weakest permanents and thus get hit for less than half their starting life total. When you can spend 15 mana on a spell with no guarantee that resolving it will win you the game, its not banworthy.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
3) Interacts poorly with the structure of Commander
Torment's "AOE" nature and high rate of mana payoff enables table kills from a much lower rate of mana than has ever been possible a single card. As noted Enter the Infinite is the only close comparison and it requires a bunch of crap to facilitate.
I'll point out that this isn't true, and torment is in fact really low on the list of competitive win conditions.
Some examples of "win the game" spells people use that are *much* less mana than torment: ad nauseam wins the game if you build your deck around it, and is probably the current gold standard for "win the game" cards, because it's almost a 5 mana version of enter the infinite food chain wins the game with certain commanders paradox engine wins the game with sisay or arcum boonweaver giant wins the game if you have a sac outlet and pattern of rebirth + the other combo pieces in your deck protean hulk wins the game if you have the right creatures in your deck and it dies defense of the heart wins the game if it triggers and you have one of many 2 creature combos in your deck
Torment is a very strong card when you want to play slow grinding edh games and everyone builds slow grinding edh decks. This is my preferred way to play edh, games that go 15+ turns. Let's not go overboard and say it's competitive though.
So #1 I never said it was competitive, I think it's more of a potential problem in 75% metas where people don't always play counterspells or land sweepers.
All of your examples have deckbuilding constraints:
Ad Naus requires critical mass of cheap spells and some kind of storm or combo finish. You can't play a lot of interaction in an ad naus deck other than stax or cheap counters.
Food Chain requires a commander or card to interact with
Paradox Engine requires a commander or cards to interact with (tons of rocks or dudes) -- Personally I think paradox engine is bannable mind you more because of the game states it creates where people have to durdle to victory
Boonweaver giant requires combo pieces on board and in deck
Protean hulk requires combo pieces on board (sac outlet) AND in deck
Defense of the heart requires combo pieces in your deck
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The thing that makes Torment unique is it's a one card combo with "lots of mana" that has basically zero deckbuilding constraints - you don't need sac outlets, reveillarks, kiki jikis, or any of that in your deck. Just play ramp spells and interaction then torment for 20.
Most combo finishes for combo-control decks require playing crappy cards or assembling sac outlets or whatever. Even Tooth and Nail has deckbuilding constraints (and can be interacted with via creature removal).
The deck I play it in - Gitrog - has such a ridiculously lean engine because of it, and can win easily by hardcasting torment in the mid game, don't really even need to combo, just ramp and cast Torment. Worst case scenario I have a two card combo of Damnation (which is good independently) plus Torment I used to have to work a lot harder to exsanguinate a table. It's crazy how much that single swap upped the power level of that deck.
Anyway, I think it's clear from this thread the card hasn't reached ubiquity elsewhere and other folks aren't seeing it as a problem so I've gotten what I want from this thread - I'm not here to convince you guys so much as for your opinions
(I mean, not to be flip but "I don't think this card interacts well with the format" is the #1 commander banning criteria)
But that means something specific. The card has to do something in commander it doesn't do in other formats ie Karakas just stops people from playing Generals. This was clearly designed with multiplayer in mind in a recent set, when EDH is a known quantity.
I'd say it's a candidate for:
1) Creates an Undesirable board state
-When cast for large amounts of mana that are not lethal it creates a state where everyone is nearly dead and has no permanents or cards in hand, and the caster has to durdle to victory
-When cast as a topdeck, has the potential to win games in ways that non-blue decks cannot interact with via any mechanism. This is arguable of course, but I've had a lot of games go that way--everyone's doing their stuff, someone topdecks Torment and kills the table (or tutors for it, etc.).
But a dozen or more cards do this, and this isnt even that efficient to do it. Loads of cards can do 'undesirable' things when cast for a lot of mana.
2) problematic casual omnipresence
-It's not there yet but I have had more than one game end by someone *copying* someone else's Torment of Hailfire. This is a bad sign to me. It's not at Sylvan Primordial level of ubiquity or anything but I'm seeing it everywhere.
Literally never even seen it cast. Didnt that just end up leveling the playing field? Or it was high enough the person with the most life won?
I'm not saying it's necessarily all of those things but it could be a candidate for any of those three; it could just be my meta but I've seen a whole lot of torments.
I would guess its just a limited amount of metas. Its been legal for a calendar year, and this is the first complaint I have even seen. And I frequent a lot of boards. It could be that I am just lucky, but the other responses here from people seem to be tilted in one direction.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Torment also requires additional cards in really big ramp. Without cards like caged sun or zendikar resurgent, you won't hit a critical mass of mana required to end the game with it.
These mana doublers and other big ramp can be as big or more of a constraint on your deckbuilding than creature combos.
But a dozen or more cards do this, and this isnt even that efficient to do it. Loads of cards can do 'undesirable' things when cast for a lot of mana.
No, there is only one card that ends the game with ~20 mana without having to resolve other cards or attack steps etc. Everything else I've heard named is vulnerable to attacks from every color and some colorless sources. The only thing that interacts with Torment is (1) having a huge board/hand (2) countermagic, (3) having a huge life total (and somewhat platinum effects as well)
I've seen plenty of Tooth and Nails stymied by Routs, Evacuations, Swords to Plowshares, etc., and have Chorded for Linvala or Phyrexian Revoker or similar to disable other combos.
Torment also requires additional cards in really big ramp. Without cards like caged sun or zendikar resurgent, you won't hit a critical mass of mana required to end the game with it.
These mana doublers and other big ramp can be as big or more of a constraint on your deckbuilding than creature combos.
You're neglecting a bunch of angles of attack for generating lots of mana; maybe your playgroups don't ramp very hard. Also, ramp is a deckbuilding constraint of EDH in general -- it's not like having to play Deceiver Exarch or Staff of Domination or Wirewood Lodge in your deck.
I've seen lethal torments off of a single Tezzeret activation (grim monolith + mana vault) and executed uncountable lethal torments with Cabal Coffers, and seen several off of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as well as Gaea's Cradle. I've also cast lethal torments in Gitrog without coffers (just ramping to 20+ lands which can be done pretty early via a variety of methods). G-wave, animist's awakening, loam/crucible/excavator + azusa, blah blah etc etc. One time my opening hand was manabond + life from the loam + 5 lands
The list goes on and on but suffice to say it's pretty trivial to make huge amounts of mana in EDH.
Again I feel the need to reiterate that I'm not advocating for a banning so much as trying to explain my thoughts on why the card is somewhat unique in its effect.
But a dozen or more cards do this, and this isnt even that efficient to do it. Loads of cards can do 'undesirable' things when cast for a lot of mana.
No, there is only one card that ends the game with ~20 mana without having to resolve other cards or attack steps etc. Everything else I've heard named is vulnerable to attacks from every color and some colorless sources. The only thing that interacts with Torment is (1) having a huge board/hand (2) countermagic, (3) having a huge life total (and somewhat platinum effects as well)
I've seen plenty of Tooth and Nails stymied by Routs, Evacuations, Swords to Plowshares, etc., and have Chorded for Linvala or Phyrexian Revoker or similar to disable other combos.
Torment also requires additional cards in really big ramp. Without cards like caged sun or zendikar resurgent, you won't hit a critical mass of mana required to end the game with it.
These mana doublers and other big ramp can be as big or more of a constraint on your deckbuilding than creature combos.
You're neglecting a bunch of angles of attack for generating lots of mana; maybe your playgroups don't ramp very hard. Also, ramp is a deckbuilding constraint of EDH in general -- it's not like having to play Deceiver Exarch or Staff of Domination or Wirewood Lodge in your deck.
I've seen lethal torments off of a single Tezzeret activation (grim monolith + mana vault) and executed uncountable lethal torments with Cabal Coffers, and seen several off of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as well as Gaea's Cradle. I've also cast lethal torments in Gitrog without coffers (just ramping to 20+ lands which can be done pretty early via a variety of methods). G-wave, animist's awakening, loam/crucible/excavator + azusa, blah blah etc etc. One time my opening hand was manabond + life from the loam + 5 lands
The list goes on and on but suffice to say it's pretty trivial to make huge amounts of mana in EDH.
Again I feel the need to reiterate that I'm not advocating for a banning so much as trying to explain my thoughts on why the card is somewhat unique in its effect.
I'm surprised you aren't complaining about a card like diabolic revelation. At the mana costs you describe, it can search up any win you want, and any answers you want, and any protection you want, and any ramp you want, all at the same time.
You describe a bunch of slow but big ramping strategies and are acting like it's the default for edh decks and doesn't hinder deckbuilding. While it is common, and strong, especially in less competitive metas, it is not the only way to win games of edh. Why ramp to 15 mana when your deck can win off a 5 mana spell by including specific synergistic cards?
Again I feel the need to reiterate that I'm not advocating for a banning so much as trying to explain my thoughts on why the card is somewhat unique in its effect.
That makes no sense while listing ban criteria you think it meets, saying its ruining games, and rebuffing comparisons to similar cards from very experienced players.
At the point in the game you can reasonably get 20+ mana Comet Storm or Debt to the deathtless can do this, and people can't even discard or sac to reduce any of it. You can keep saying its unique, we are going to disagree.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
But a dozen or more cards do this, and this isnt even that efficient to do it. Loads of cards can do 'undesirable' things when cast for a lot of mana.
No, there is only one card that ends the game with ~20 mana without having to resolve other cards or attack steps etc. Everything else I've heard named is vulnerable to attacks from every color and some colorless sources. The only thing that interacts with Torment is (1) having a huge board/hand (2) countermagic, (3) having a huge life total (and somewhat platinum effects as well)
I've seen plenty of Tooth and Nails stymied by Routs, Evacuations, Swords to Plowshares, etc., and have Chorded for Linvala or Phyrexian Revoker or similar to disable other combos.
Torment also requires additional cards in really big ramp. Without cards like caged sun or zendikar resurgent, you won't hit a critical mass of mana required to end the game with it.
These mana doublers and other big ramp can be as big or more of a constraint on your deckbuilding than creature combos.
You're neglecting a bunch of angles of attack for generating lots of mana; maybe your playgroups don't ramp very hard. Also, ramp is a deckbuilding constraint of EDH in general -- it's not like having to play Deceiver Exarch or Staff of Domination or Wirewood Lodge in your deck.
I've seen lethal torments off of a single Tezzeret activation (grim monolith + mana vault) and executed uncountable lethal torments with Cabal Coffers, and seen several off of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as well as Gaea's Cradle. I've also cast lethal torments in Gitrog without coffers (just ramping to 20+ lands which can be done pretty early via a variety of methods). G-wave, animist's awakening, loam/crucible/excavator + azusa, blah blah etc etc. One time my opening hand was manabond + life from the loam + 5 lands
The list goes on and on but suffice to say it's pretty trivial to make huge amounts of mana in EDH.
Again I feel the need to reiterate that I'm not advocating for a banning so much as trying to explain my thoughts on why the card is somewhat unique in its effect.
Uh, yes, those are all deck building constraints. You are stuck in some pretty specific decks to make those work, namely mono black to consistently get coffers to fire to 20 early (or you are including land tutors and Urborg to make the combo), going wide to make it work with Cradle, or playing a very specific deck in Gitrog.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Again I feel the need to reiterate that I'm not advocating for a banning so much as trying to explain my thoughts on why the card is somewhat unique in its effect.
That makes no sense while listing ban criteria you think it meets, saying its ruining games, and rebuffing comparisons to similar cards from very experienced players.
At the point in the game you can reasonably get 20+ mana Comet Storm or Debt to the deathtless can do this, and people can't even discard or sac to reduce any of it. You can keep saying its unique, we are going to disagree.
Edit: Cleaning up this because I had a math brain fart on Debt.
So Comet storm is definitely not there--it's doing 15 or so to three players with 20 mana?
Debt is with 20 mana doing 32 to opponents, which is definitely on a power level with Torment. Being in two colors limits it somewhat. But I would say it's the closest thing to a comparison we have, and a good one.
So I dunno. I think torment could actually hit casual omnipresence (because of the color and lower CMC for tutors) where debt couldn't, but it's something to think about.
Uh, yes, those are all deck building constraints. You are stuck in some pretty specific decks to make those work, namely mono black to consistently get coffers to fire to 20 early (or you are including land tutors and Urborg to make the combo), going wide to make it work with Cradle, or playing a very specific deck in Gitrog.
I don't really consider ramp to be a serious deckbuilding constraint in EDH, at least not on the scale of including derpy dead cards for combos (and methods of finding them). YMMV, but every deck in my meta ramps to some degree and most are doing so pretty seriously.
The general weakness of the huge ramp decks is that they need to balance card draw and threats and everything, and Torment changes that in some ways by making it much easier to assemble a wincon - you don't need infinite mana plus an infinite outlet, you just need lots of mana plus torment. You don't need lots of fatties and to connect in combat, you just cast torment.
The number if different profiles of ramp deck that can use Torment as a finisher is pretty high, and I was just correcting an incorrect statement that mana doublers were required
Off the top of my head, I've *seen* these ramp builds finish with torment:
-multi-land drop muldrotha
-high tide
-multi-land drop coffers urborg (me w/gitrog)
-mono black mana doublers
-GB mana doublers
-primal amulet rituals
-tezzeret rocks
-jund goodstuff with land ramp in a very long game
So it's not like it's limited to playing zendikar resurgent and crap cards like that:P
So Comet storm is definitely not there--it's doing 15 or so to three players with 20 mana?
Debt is with 20 mana doing 32 to opponents, which is definitely on a power level with Torment. Being in two colors limits it somewhat. But I would say it's the closest thing to a comparison we have, and a good one.
So I dunno. I think torment could actually hit casual omnipresence (because of the color and lower CMC for tutors) where debt couldn't, but it's something to think about.
This may be a playgroup difference, but by the time I can get to 20 mana, people are at 15 or less life much more often than not. But again, if you are tutoring for this and/or big mana there are tons of ways to win that slot right in. 'Big black mana plus a sorcery = win' isnt exactly a new concept.
Again having literally never seen the card played, I wont hold my breath on casual omnipresence. YMMV
EDIT* EdhRec has it as the 33rd most played sorcery in black. Behind other X finishers. Its one data point, but not nothing.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Again I feel the need to reiterate that I'm not advocating for a banning so much as trying to explain my thoughts on why the card is somewhat unique in its effect.
That makes no sense while listing ban criteria you think it meets, saying its ruining games, and rebuffing comparisons to similar cards from very experienced players.
At the point in the game you can reasonably get 20+ mana Comet Storm or Debt to the deathtless can do this, and people can't even discard or sac to reduce any of it. You can keep saying its unique, we are going to disagree.
Edit: Cleaning up this because I had a math brain fart on Debt.
So Comet storm is definitely not there--it's doing 15 or so to three players with 20 mana?
Debt is with 20 mana doing 32 to opponents, which is definitely on a power level with Torment. Being in two colors limits it somewhat. But I would say it's the closest thing to a comparison we have, and a good one.
So I dunno. I think torment could actually hit casual omnipresence (because of the color and lower CMC for tutors) where debt couldn't, but it's something to think about.
Uh, yes, those are all deck building constraints. You are stuck in some pretty specific decks to make those work, namely mono black to consistently get coffers to fire to 20 early (or you are including land tutors and Urborg to make the combo), going wide to make it work with Cradle, or playing a very specific deck in Gitrog.
I don't really consider ramp to be a serious deckbuilding constraint in EDH, at least not on the scale of including derpy dead cards for combos (and methods of finding them). YMMV, but every deck in my meta ramps to some degree and most are doing so pretty seriously.
The general weakness of the huge ramp decks is that they need to balance card draw and threats and everything, and Torment changes that in some ways by making it much easier to assemble a wincon - you don't need infinite mana plus an infinite outlet, you just need lots of mana plus torment. You don't need lots of fatties and to connect in combat, you just cast torment.
The number if different profiles of ramp deck that can use Torment as a finisher is pretty high, and I was just correcting an incorrect statement that mana doublers were required
Off the top of my head, I've *seen* these ramp builds finish with torment:
-multi-land drop muldrotha
-high tide
-multi-land drop coffers urborg (me w/gitrog)
-mono black mana doublers
-GB mana doublers
-primal amulet rituals
-tezzeret rocks
-jund goodstuff with land ramp in a very long game
So it's not like it's limited to playing zendikar resurgent and crap cards like that:P
You seem to be missing the point here, since every deck you listed is based on a hard ramp strategy, except Jund which you admitted came after a long game with ramp. Again, the only time you are going off with this for lethal is when you are committed to a hard ramp strategy, as evidenced by the decks you mentioned, otherwise it goes off late game when you should be casting game ending spells. Urborg Coffers is deep into "deal with it asap" territory because of how powerful it is, and you still need to have 10 other lands in play (or some rocks to require 1-3 fewer lands) to have enough mana to pump x=20 into it for the reliable table kill. That's what, turn 9 or 10 with rocks?
At best, this might replace exsanguinate has the black x finisher of choice that randomly gets worse against tokens and con sphinx. Is exsanguinate problematic? Is aa slightly better (sometimes) exsanguinate problematic? No to both. If it completely replaces exsanguinate, it would be neither problematic nor omnipresent.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm assuming you don't play with a lot of ramp decks based on your apparent misconceptions about how fast things go with 75% ramp decks, and I don't mean that in an insulting way, just sounds like our metas differ quite a bit. There're also so many different hard ramp strategies that they differ quite a bit in terms of deckbuilding constraints--there's really only a couple ways to build an Ad Nauseam deck, right?
My point was mostly that deckbuilding constraints of "play a bunch of ramp" is not really the same as other combo outlet cards. The "hard ramp" strategies can play all kinds of cards and approaches. If my Gitrog deck isn't at 15+ mana by turn 5, that's pretty unusual. My record is 76 or so on turn 6 (off a t5 great aurora -> genesis wave for 17).
My guess is it will continue to replace Exsanguinate and become kind of annoying (because in the midgame, it's far more likely to end games prematurely than exsanguinate) but based on what I am hearing it sounds like I'm the only one who has problems with that So I'm good to let it drop.
What I've found is it's just another one of those "make a bunch of mana, win the game" cards like Genesis Wave and Exsanguinate but it's a card that is very difficult to interact with aside from the stack; your defenses all have to be up early (draw a ton of cards, maintain a huge board, attack caster's mana).
But unlike G-wave, most colors cannot interact with it on the stack; it's pretty much Blue (counter, copy, steal) and slightly Red (copy, redirect). And unlike Genesis Wave, it's significantly more mana efficient (a casting for 15-ish will instantly end the game, whereas G-wave usually needs to be 30+ to be guaranteed victory). I've seen the card off the top randomly end a lot of games for X=8-9 as well, in games where the old standby of Exsanguinate would have needed X=20 or more. And every color can interact with Wave somehow (removal spells, copies, torpor orb effects, attack tax effects, containment priest, etc., etc.)
In short, I don't think this card interacts very well with the commander format; it's essentially a 1-card combo with enough black mana, which can be cast for incremental value. It feels like it's going to become ubiquitous (it already has in my meta) in spell-based combo (or combo-control) as a finisher, and I think it might just be too efficient (needing ~20 mana instead of ~50 mana to win the game like most X spells).
It does compare fairly unfavorably to Tooth and Nail - an X=7 hailfire is a lot less likely to end the game than a T&N, but on the flipside T&N has some fair applications and every color has instant speed removal that can answer Tooth combos.
But before jumping on the "Ban!" train I'm very curious if I'm the only one seeing this card so much.
Edit: Obviously I'm talking about the broader commander meta; this card probably isn't making a huge play in CEDH
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
It doesnt seem like it's good enough unless its being cast for absurd or game ending amounts though. As a spot removal people can discard, take damage, or sac something else; and you can just shuffle around those if you wanted to discard or deal damage. The upside is that obviously it affects all the opponents, but it's more or less the same.
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By that logic, shouldn't a 17-mana spell win you the game, and be difficult to interact with?
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Enter the Infinite is close in that it will functionally win you the game, but it requires resolving another spell or three (and hence adds another option for White to interact, both hating on the card draw effect and hating on multiple spells and so on. I also don't know that I agree with the idea that resolving a single 9 (or 11) mana spell should win the game on the spot, doesn't seem like that's really proven.
The difference between other mana outlets and Torment is that Torment can both win by creating a lot of mana and also wins for sure by creating infinite mana; most infinite mana outlets are themselves fairly innocuous and inefficient (say, Valakut Invoker). Genesis Wave has a similar distinction but is interacted with by more angles.
If you compare Torment to similar X-spells like Comet Storm people have used, it takes a truly ridiculous amount of mana to end a table - but Torment does it for an itty bitty bit.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Either way, Debt to the Deathless is much better at closing the game out than both Torment or Exanguinate and theres never been much of an issue. (24 mana for 40 life drain, vs 24 mana for 66 damage that be lowered to less than lethal (at 40) with 9 discards/sacs... which is back breaking but unless it involves infinite mana and depending on boardstate it shouldnt be too hard for at least two players to survive. A more realistic mana amount of 12 leads to 16 life loss on debt or 30 on torrent, but with 5 discards/sacs you're already doing less damage, which isnt what you want if youre trying to win.
Torrent has a much higher ceiling than Debt and the additional effrcts can be nice, but if you're trying to win off of it on the spot without infinite mana it's just too boardstate dependent. And if infinite mana is involved then it really doesn't matter since two other cards would have had the same exact effect or they could have won using any other number of infinite mana lines.
Enter the infinite -> mox diamond -> mana crypt -> chrome mox -> laboratory maniac -> brainstorm
If they try to stop it somehow, you are likely to have force of will and pact of negation
Wins on the spot, all you have to do is have these cards in your deck, because you draw your whole deck, and each card except for laboratory maniac is a card you want to be running anyways in almost every blue deck. Accomplished by something as mundane as having 7 islands and high tide for example.
I don't think torment with 15 mana pumped into it should be the point of discussing it for banning, because at that point you are able to start casting multiple huge mana haymakers in the same turn.
Is torment a problem when cast with X = 6 or 7? That's a far more likely use case and it's competing against cards like razaketh, the foulblooded and rise of the dark realms. I don't think it's a problem at this mana cost. It's strong, but you expect your 8 and 9 mana spells to be strong.
It also scales linearly, whereas haymakers often scale stupidly. What I mean by this is for 5 mana you might expect to draw 4 cards in blue with a card like tidings. Then at 6 mana you might expect to draw 10+ with recurring insight or consecrated sphinx. And then at 12 mana you have enter the infinite which draws every card. Each point of mana increases the effect of the spell more than the previous. Torment is much more linear.
Highly competitive blue decks, I think you mean. I don't think a single blue deck I own (12) has all of those cards in it, though several of them have at least one.
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This card meets not a single criteria for ban consideration. People need to understand how and why cards are banned in the format before proposing bans and unbans.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'd say it's a candidate for:
1) Creates an Undesirable board state
-When cast for large amounts of mana that are not lethal it creates a state where everyone is nearly dead and has no permanents or cards in hand, and the caster has to durdle to victory
-When cast as a topdeck, has the potential to win games in ways that non-blue decks cannot interact with via any mechanism. This is arguable of course, but I've had a lot of games go that way--everyone's doing their stuff, someone topdecks Torment and kills the table (or tutors for it, etc.).
2) problematic casual omnipresence
-It's not there yet but I have had more than one game end by someone *copying* someone else's Torment of Hailfire. This is a bad sign to me. It's not at Sylvan Primordial level of ubiquity or anything but I'm seeing it everywhere.
3) Interacts poorly with the structure of Commander
Torment's "AOE" nature and high rate of mana payoff enables table kills from a much lower rate of mana than has ever been possible a single card. As noted Enter the Infinite is the only close comparison and it requires a bunch of crap to facilitate.
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I'm not saying it's necessarily all of those things but it could be a candidate for any of those three; it could just be my meta but I've seen a whole lot of torments.
I also don't find making 15 or whatever mana to be that particularly crazy. Making tons of mana in Commander is pretty easy; for the most part, killing a table requires resolving multiple cards that can be interacted with.
Most of the games I play go well past 15 mana, especially if I'm playing Gitrog; Hell, I hit 19 land drops with Ephara in one game tonight.
Again, not advocating strongly for a ban either, it's just something I've noticed that it's become the kinda de facto big mana black finisher of choice, and in most decks playing black that ramp.
That isn't necessarily a huge problem but the specific issue I've seen is how difficult it is to interact with. In general most sorceries require either 30+ mana or a combat step, or even resolving multiple other spells to win. The difference between 15 and 30 is a lot.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I'll point out that this isn't true, and torment is in fact really low on the list of competitive win conditions.
Some examples of "win the game" spells people use that are *much* less mana than torment:
ad nauseam wins the game if you build your deck around it, and is probably the current gold standard for "win the game" cards, because it's almost a 5 mana version of enter the infinite
food chain wins the game with certain commanders
paradox engine wins the game with sisay or arcum
boonweaver giant wins the game if you have a sac outlet and pattern of rebirth + the other combo pieces in your deck
protean hulk wins the game if you have the right creatures in your deck and it dies
defense of the heart wins the game if it triggers and you have one of many 2 creature combos in your deck
Torment is a very strong card when you want to play slow grinding edh games and everyone builds slow grinding edh decks. This is my preferred way to play edh, games that go 15+ turns. Let's not go overboard and say it's competitive though.
1) wiping out boards for 15 mana is not an undesirable game state. If you are resolving a 15 mana sorcery and it decimates every player but you to the point they have no defense, you aren't going to durdle to victory, your going to likely close out the game in short order by attacking with your commander, if players don't just scoop of course.
2) problematic casual omnipresence requires two things to be true. First, it has to be omnipresent, which torment is not. Second, such omnipresence must be problematic, which torment is not. It doesn't warp games around it by making people go for it early and often or fight to control it. It will usually decide the games its cast in, but only because people will rarely cast it when it won't do that. Unlike prime time or prophet, torment isn't something you try to search up and cast asap, its something that sits in your hand waiting to be relevant
3) This is the only one that's even close. It interacts with the nature of the format in the same way that any AoE effect interacts with multiplayer: it gets better. How much better is a matter of debate, and I'd argue not nearly enough to warrant "interacts poorly. Firing off for X=13 in 1v1 is going to be as winning a move as firing it off in multiplayer. Real deal, it doesn't really do anything different in the format. It doesn't change how it functions, which is as a finisher that costs a bunch of mana to work.
Its a good card, but it doesn't meet any of the criteria. It also sucks versus certain archetypes, like tokens. Its a greifer card that gives opponents a choice, so its much weaker than 3 life per mana. Pump 15 mana into it, and each player can discard a couple cards, sac a couple extra lands, and sac a few of their weakest permanents and thus get hit for less than half their starting life total. When you can spend 15 mana on a spell with no guarantee that resolving it will win you the game, its not banworthy.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So #1 I never said it was competitive, I think it's more of a potential problem in 75% metas where people don't always play counterspells or land sweepers.
All of your examples have deckbuilding constraints:
Ad Naus requires critical mass of cheap spells and some kind of storm or combo finish. You can't play a lot of interaction in an ad naus deck other than stax or cheap counters.
Food Chain requires a commander or card to interact with
Paradox Engine requires a commander or cards to interact with (tons of rocks or dudes) -- Personally I think paradox engine is bannable mind you more because of the game states it creates where people have to durdle to victory
Boonweaver giant requires combo pieces on board and in deck
Protean hulk requires combo pieces on board (sac outlet) AND in deck
Defense of the heart requires combo pieces in your deck
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The thing that makes Torment unique is it's a one card combo with "lots of mana" that has basically zero deckbuilding constraints - you don't need sac outlets, reveillarks, kiki jikis, or any of that in your deck. Just play ramp spells and interaction then torment for 20.
Most combo finishes for combo-control decks require playing crappy cards or assembling sac outlets or whatever. Even Tooth and Nail has deckbuilding constraints (and can be interacted with via creature removal).
The deck I play it in - Gitrog - has such a ridiculously lean engine because of it, and can win easily by hardcasting torment in the mid game, don't really even need to combo, just ramp and cast Torment. Worst case scenario I have a two card combo of Damnation (which is good independently) plus Torment I used to have to work a lot harder to exsanguinate a table. It's crazy how much that single swap upped the power level of that deck.
Anyway, I think it's clear from this thread the card hasn't reached ubiquity elsewhere and other folks aren't seeing it as a problem so I've gotten what I want from this thread - I'm not here to convince you guys so much as for your opinions
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
But a dozen or more cards do this, and this isnt even that efficient to do it. Loads of cards can do 'undesirable' things when cast for a lot of mana.
Literally never even seen it cast. Didnt that just end up leveling the playing field? Or it was high enough the person with the most life won?
I would guess its just a limited amount of metas. Its been legal for a calendar year, and this is the first complaint I have even seen. And I frequent a lot of boards. It could be that I am just lucky, but the other responses here from people seem to be tilted in one direction.
These mana doublers and other big ramp can be as big or more of a constraint on your deckbuilding than creature combos.
No, there is only one card that ends the game with ~20 mana without having to resolve other cards or attack steps etc. Everything else I've heard named is vulnerable to attacks from every color and some colorless sources. The only thing that interacts with Torment is (1) having a huge board/hand (2) countermagic, (3) having a huge life total (and somewhat platinum effects as well)
I've seen plenty of Tooth and Nails stymied by Routs, Evacuations, Swords to Plowshares, etc., and have Chorded for Linvala or Phyrexian Revoker or similar to disable other combos.
You're neglecting a bunch of angles of attack for generating lots of mana; maybe your playgroups don't ramp very hard. Also, ramp is a deckbuilding constraint of EDH in general -- it's not like having to play Deceiver Exarch or Staff of Domination or Wirewood Lodge in your deck.
I've seen lethal torments off of a single Tezzeret activation (grim monolith + mana vault) and executed uncountable lethal torments with Cabal Coffers, and seen several off of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as well as Gaea's Cradle. I've also cast lethal torments in Gitrog without coffers (just ramping to 20+ lands which can be done pretty early via a variety of methods). G-wave, animist's awakening, loam/crucible/excavator + azusa, blah blah etc etc. One time my opening hand was manabond + life from the loam + 5 lands
The list goes on and on but suffice to say it's pretty trivial to make huge amounts of mana in EDH.
Again I feel the need to reiterate that I'm not advocating for a banning so much as trying to explain my thoughts on why the card is somewhat unique in its effect.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I'm surprised you aren't complaining about a card like diabolic revelation. At the mana costs you describe, it can search up any win you want, and any answers you want, and any protection you want, and any ramp you want, all at the same time.
You describe a bunch of slow but big ramping strategies and are acting like it's the default for edh decks and doesn't hinder deckbuilding. While it is common, and strong, especially in less competitive metas, it is not the only way to win games of edh. Why ramp to 15 mana when your deck can win off a 5 mana spell by including specific synergistic cards?
At the point in the game you can reasonably get 20+ mana Comet Storm or Debt to the deathtless can do this, and people can't even discard or sac to reduce any of it. You can keep saying its unique, we are going to disagree.
Uh, yes, those are all deck building constraints. You are stuck in some pretty specific decks to make those work, namely mono black to consistently get coffers to fire to 20 early (or you are including land tutors and Urborg to make the combo), going wide to make it work with Cradle, or playing a very specific deck in Gitrog.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Edit: Cleaning up this because I had a math brain fart on Debt.
So Comet storm is definitely not there--it's doing 15 or so to three players with 20 mana?
Debt is with 20 mana doing 32 to opponents, which is definitely on a power level with Torment. Being in two colors limits it somewhat. But I would say it's the closest thing to a comparison we have, and a good one.
So I dunno. I think torment could actually hit casual omnipresence (because of the color and lower CMC for tutors) where debt couldn't, but it's something to think about.
I don't really consider ramp to be a serious deckbuilding constraint in EDH, at least not on the scale of including derpy dead cards for combos (and methods of finding them). YMMV, but every deck in my meta ramps to some degree and most are doing so pretty seriously.
The general weakness of the huge ramp decks is that they need to balance card draw and threats and everything, and Torment changes that in some ways by making it much easier to assemble a wincon - you don't need infinite mana plus an infinite outlet, you just need lots of mana plus torment. You don't need lots of fatties and to connect in combat, you just cast torment.
The number if different profiles of ramp deck that can use Torment as a finisher is pretty high, and I was just correcting an incorrect statement that mana doublers were required
Off the top of my head, I've *seen* these ramp builds finish with torment:
-multi-land drop muldrotha
-high tide
-multi-land drop coffers urborg (me w/gitrog)
-mono black mana doublers
-GB mana doublers
-primal amulet rituals
-tezzeret rocks
-jund goodstuff with land ramp in a very long game
So it's not like it's limited to playing zendikar resurgent and crap cards like that:P
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Again having literally never seen the card played, I wont hold my breath on casual omnipresence. YMMV
EDIT* EdhRec has it as the 33rd most played sorcery in black. Behind other X finishers. Its one data point, but not nothing.
You seem to be missing the point here, since every deck you listed is based on a hard ramp strategy, except Jund which you admitted came after a long game with ramp. Again, the only time you are going off with this for lethal is when you are committed to a hard ramp strategy, as evidenced by the decks you mentioned, otherwise it goes off late game when you should be casting game ending spells. Urborg Coffers is deep into "deal with it asap" territory because of how powerful it is, and you still need to have 10 other lands in play (or some rocks to require 1-3 fewer lands) to have enough mana to pump x=20 into it for the reliable table kill. That's what, turn 9 or 10 with rocks?
At best, this might replace exsanguinate has the black x finisher of choice that randomly gets worse against tokens and con sphinx. Is exsanguinate problematic? Is aa slightly better (sometimes) exsanguinate problematic? No to both. If it completely replaces exsanguinate, it would be neither problematic nor omnipresent.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
My point was mostly that deckbuilding constraints of "play a bunch of ramp" is not really the same as other combo outlet cards. The "hard ramp" strategies can play all kinds of cards and approaches. If my Gitrog deck isn't at 15+ mana by turn 5, that's pretty unusual. My record is 76 or so on turn 6 (off a t5 great aurora -> genesis wave for 17).
My guess is it will continue to replace Exsanguinate and become kind of annoying (because in the midgame, it's far more likely to end games prematurely than exsanguinate) but based on what I am hearing it sounds like I'm the only one who has problems with that So I'm good to let it drop.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall