I think a lot of people here are overstating how influential they would be. Ancestral Recall is a good card, but we live in a world where you start with 40 life and Necropotence is legal. Which would you rather start with in your opening hand? Even something like Phyrexian Arena will probably give you more value over the course of an average game of EDH than Recall would. This isn't 60-card 1v1.
Time Walk is obviously the cheapest way to start some sort of infinite turns loop with Archaeomancer or something, but outside of that it will often just be a glorified Explore. Basically, if you're NOT trying to do something broken (like cast it over and over again) the difference between Walk and Warp is pretty minimal.
These cards are banned 95% because of their price and 5% because of their actual power level.
I think a lot of people here are overstating how influential they would be. Ancestral Recall is a good card, but we live in a world where you start with 40 life and Necropotence is legal. Which would you rather start with in your opening hand? Even something like Phyrexian Arena will probably give you more value over the course of an average game of EDH than Recall would. This isn't 60-card 1v1.
Time Walk is obviously the cheapest way to start some sort of infinite turns loop with Archaeomancer or something, but outside of that it will often just be a glorified Explore. Basically, if you're NOT trying to do something broken (like cast it over and over again) the difference between Walk and Warp is pretty minimal.
These cards are banned 95% because of their price and 5% because of their actual power level.
Man people get hung up on this explore thing. If explore untapped your lands it would be busted beyond all reason. Which is like the worst-case-scenario for time walk.
Comparing recall to arena is ludicrous. Arena takes 4 turns and thrice as much mana to draw three cards. Decks of the caliber that they're running ancestral recall are probably going to win before that happens.
Granted, if you just slotted these 2 into a low-power casual commander deck they probably wouldn't instantly win the game or anything. But they guaranteed improve the quality of any deck you put them in, and in a competitive deck they become absolutely ridiculous.
Just thinking of how busted this could be, imagine how much easier it would be to stack a Doomsday pile with Ancestral Recall. That gives at least one more card in your pile that you can use for protecting your combo, and another out in the deck for drawing into what you need...is this horse dead yet?
we live in a world where you start with 40 life and Necropotence is legal. Which would you rather start with in your opening hand?
Ancestral Recall, every time. This from someone with a deck in every color combination (with two mono-white, two Rakdos, and in the process of building a second Grixis), and Necropotence in almost every black deck.
we live in a world where you start with 40 life and Necropotence is legal. Which would you rather start with in your opening hand?
Ancestral Recall, every time. This from someone with a deck in every color combination (with two mono-white, two Rakdos, and in the process of building a second Grixis), and Necropotence in almost every black deck.
I concur. Ancestral in an opening hand to refill after playing a land, mox diamond, or whatever on the first turn and dropping a land on the second turn virtually guarantees having gas and on tempo plays/land drops for at least one more turn. Necropotence is rarely going to come down before turn 3 unless you have Dark Ritual in hand also.
Man people get hung up on this explore thing. If explore untapped your lands it would be busted beyond all reason. Which is like the worst-case-scenario for time walk.
Comparing recall to arena is ludicrous. Arena takes 4 turns and thrice as much mana to draw three cards. Decks of the caliber that they're running ancestral recall are probably going to win before that happens.
Granted, if you just slotted these 2 into a low-power casual commander deck they probably wouldn't instantly win the game or anything. But they guaranteed improve the quality of any deck you put them in, and in a competitive deck they become absolutely ridiculous.
The point of the Explore comparison is if you're casting it early for little value, in which case you've basically untapped, put an extra land into play and maybe cast another spell using the extra mana. Sure, that's great, but it's certainly not game breaking. But honestly I personally never see extra-turn effects unless they are part of a combo finish or in a Narset, Enlightened Master deck. So not including things like infinitely recurring it, Time Walk is just another good card but not one I'm like "Damn, gotta play U or else I miss out on Time Walk!" And if I am trying to combo off, I'm probably playing U anyways for the counter magic. What I'm saying is Time Walk is obviously a good card, but it's not so good that it is a primary reason to make your deck Blue.
On to the Arena comparison: that was my point and why I said "average EDH game". EDH is generally not a super competitive format. You can lay down an Arena on T3 and over the course of 5 turns draw 5 cards, which I think makes it a better card in the format. I'm not arguing that in a hyper-tuned competitive list you would rather have Arena than Recall; I'm saying that most lists aren't hyper-tuned and would rather have the constant flow of extra cards instead of a single extremely efficient single-use draw spell.
Ancestral Recall, every time. This from someone with a deck in every color combination (with two mono-white, two Rakdos, and in the process of building a second Grixis), and Necropotence in almost every black deck.
Well I think you're wrong. Necro just does more. If you're playing casually it just means you always have a full grip and always have something to do. If you're playing competitively it draws you 30 cards for next turn ensuring you can attempt to combo off or whatever. The only situation in which I think Recall is better is if you're at a (competitive) table of like 4 Barals and maximizing every single mana through infinite counterpells is the name of the game.
I'm assuming a more battlecruiser style of games because I think that is more representative of the average table. Obviously I think Recall and Time Walk go way, way up the more competitive you get as mana efficiency becomes more important. But if you went up to an average 4-person table and let the players with a U color identity swap in Recall and Time Walk right before they started, I don't think it would cause any problems.
I think a lot of people here are overstating how influential they would be. Ancestral Recall is a good card, but we live in a world where you start with 40 life and Necropotence is legal. Which would you rather start with in your opening hand? Even something like Phyrexian Arena will probably give you more value over the course of an average game of EDH than Recall would. This isn't 60-card 1v1.
Time Walk is obviously the cheapest way to start some sort of infinite turns loop with Archaeomancer or something, but outside of that it will often just be a glorified Explore. Basically, if you're NOT trying to do something broken (like cast it over and over again) the difference between Walk and Warp is pretty minimal.
These cards are banned 95% because of their price and 5% because of their actual power level.
This is a bit like explaining to my sister-in-law, who is still new to the game, why Black Lotus is the most expensive, powerful card in MTG history. Her immediate reaction was "what? Why? That's dumb. I mean, Gilded Lotus and Elvish Aberration make that much mana every turn! And Aberration attacks! And Sol Ring is better too, for that matter. What could possibly be so powerful about 3 extra mana for one turn only?"
Necropotence has a high ceiling; sometimes it just wins the game. But Recall has a better floor - there is literally never ever a time where you will draw it and it won't be extremely great. It doesn't win the game instantly, but you'll never be upset to see it. Sometimes you never hit seven mana for Cyclonic Rift; sometimes the ramp is irrelevant from Sol Ring because you flood out and your commander has no colorless cost; sometimes opponents don't have a target for Swords to Plowshares; sometimes your graveyard gets spellbombed or you draw it as the only creature turn 3 and Eternal Witness does nothing for a looooong time; sometimes you draw Necro on 6 life staring down lethal and it's basically a blank card. But Recall is gas turn 1, gas turn 10, and even if it draws nothing, at least you're three cards closer to the good stuff. And that's just playing it fair, and not using it in Doomsday piles or forking it or looping it.
EDIT: Honestly Black Lotus is probably less scary and format-warping in a theoretical "everything goes EDH" world; at least lotus is a bad topdeck if your hand is empty and a multiplayer environment could cause the player who turn 1 casts their commander or Necropotence to get archenemied to death, and you have to run slightly more obscure cards to break it in half (Auriok Salvagers, for instance).
EDIT: Honestly Black Lotus is probably less scary and format-warping in a theoretical "everything goes EDH" world; at least lotus is a bad topdeck if your hand is empty and a multiplayer environment could cause the player who turn 1 casts their commander or Necropotence to get archenemied to death, and you have to run slightly more obscure cards to break it in half (Auriok Salvagers, for instance).
That is one REALLY bold claim, although I do see your point.
I mean, Black Lotus is still probably a snap include in all EDH decks even with the risk of drawing it turn 10 and having it be a do-nothing. It just replaces a land in deckbuilding. It would be a disgusting, disgusting card and should never ever be unbanned. I just don't think it's as easy to utterly break as Recall or especially Time Walk, and it is only marginally more powerful in a vacuum than Mana Crypt in this format.
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EDIT: Honestly Black Lotus is probably less scary and format-warping in a theoretical "everything goes EDH" world; at least lotus is a bad topdeck if your hand is empty and a multiplayer environment could cause the player who turn 1 casts their commander or Necropotence to get archenemied to death, and you have to run slightly more obscure cards to break it in half (Auriok Salvagers, for instance).
That is one REALLY bold claim, although I do see your point.
I mean, Black Lotus is still probably a snap include in all EDH decks even with the risk of drawing it turn 10 and having it be a do-nothing. It just replaces a land in deckbuilding. It would be a disgusting, disgusting card and should never ever be unbanned. I just don't think it's as easy to utterly break as Recall or especially Time Walk, and it is only marginally more powerful in a vacuum than Mana Crypt in this format.
There will be very few "turn 10" in such a edh format.
Got to agree with Carthage here, the format can already get easily degenerate when all decks involved pimp out their fast mana, having access to a strictly better brainstorm by the time you're done dumping your rocks to keep the party going doesn't sound like a fun time.
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Time Walk is obviously the cheapest way to start some sort of infinite turns loop with Archaeomancer or something, but outside of that it will often just be a glorified Explore. Basically, if you're NOT trying to do something broken (like cast it over and over again) the difference between Walk and Warp is pretty minimal.
These cards are banned 95% because of their price and 5% because of their actual power level.
Comparing recall to arena is ludicrous. Arena takes 4 turns and thrice as much mana to draw three cards. Decks of the caliber that they're running ancestral recall are probably going to win before that happens.
Granted, if you just slotted these 2 into a low-power casual commander deck they probably wouldn't instantly win the game or anything. But they guaranteed improve the quality of any deck you put them in, and in a competitive deck they become absolutely ridiculous.
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I concur. Ancestral in an opening hand to refill after playing a land, mox diamond, or whatever on the first turn and dropping a land on the second turn virtually guarantees having gas and on tempo plays/land drops for at least one more turn. Necropotence is rarely going to come down before turn 3 unless you have Dark Ritual in hand also.
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On to the Arena comparison: that was my point and why I said "average EDH game". EDH is generally not a super competitive format. You can lay down an Arena on T3 and over the course of 5 turns draw 5 cards, which I think makes it a better card in the format. I'm not arguing that in a hyper-tuned competitive list you would rather have Arena than Recall; I'm saying that most lists aren't hyper-tuned and would rather have the constant flow of extra cards instead of a single extremely efficient single-use draw spell.
Well I think you're wrong. Necro just does more. If you're playing casually it just means you always have a full grip and always have something to do. If you're playing competitively it draws you 30 cards for next turn ensuring you can attempt to combo off or whatever. The only situation in which I think Recall is better is if you're at a (competitive) table of like 4 Barals and maximizing every single mana through infinite counterpells is the name of the game.
I'm assuming a more battlecruiser style of games because I think that is more representative of the average table. Obviously I think Recall and Time Walk go way, way up the more competitive you get as mana efficiency becomes more important. But if you went up to an average 4-person table and let the players with a U color identity swap in Recall and Time Walk right before they started, I don't think it would cause any problems.
This is a bit like explaining to my sister-in-law, who is still new to the game, why Black Lotus is the most expensive, powerful card in MTG history. Her immediate reaction was "what? Why? That's dumb. I mean, Gilded Lotus and Elvish Aberration make that much mana every turn! And Aberration attacks! And Sol Ring is better too, for that matter. What could possibly be so powerful about 3 extra mana for one turn only?"
Necropotence has a high ceiling; sometimes it just wins the game. But Recall has a better floor - there is literally never ever a time where you will draw it and it won't be extremely great. It doesn't win the game instantly, but you'll never be upset to see it. Sometimes you never hit seven mana for Cyclonic Rift; sometimes the ramp is irrelevant from Sol Ring because you flood out and your commander has no colorless cost; sometimes opponents don't have a target for Swords to Plowshares; sometimes your graveyard gets spellbombed or you draw it as the only creature turn 3 and Eternal Witness does nothing for a looooong time; sometimes you draw Necro on 6 life staring down lethal and it's basically a blank card. But Recall is gas turn 1, gas turn 10, and even if it draws nothing, at least you're three cards closer to the good stuff. And that's just playing it fair, and not using it in Doomsday piles or forking it or looping it.
EDIT: Honestly Black Lotus is probably less scary and format-warping in a theoretical "everything goes EDH" world; at least lotus is a bad topdeck if your hand is empty and a multiplayer environment could cause the player who turn 1 casts their commander or Necropotence to get archenemied to death, and you have to run slightly more obscure cards to break it in half (Auriok Salvagers, for instance).
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WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
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RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
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I mean, Black Lotus is still probably a snap include in all EDH decks even with the risk of drawing it turn 10 and having it be a do-nothing. It just replaces a land in deckbuilding. It would be a disgusting, disgusting card and should never ever be unbanned. I just don't think it's as easy to utterly break as Recall or especially Time Walk, and it is only marginally more powerful in a vacuum than Mana Crypt in this format.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
There will be very few "turn 10" in such a edh format.
There will rarely be a "turn 4" in such a format.