I think the RC just doesn't want to have 20 cards on a BaaC list. I think they should rip off that bandaid.
Having a BaaC list almost as long as the general ban list is in direct opposition to their sated 'keep the ban list as short as reasonable'. And I would hardly call it a band-aid, we had it before and it caused more confusion than it was worth IMO.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I think the RC just doesn't want to have 20 cards on a BaaC list. I think they should rip off that bandaid.
Having a BaaC list almost as long as the general ban list is in direct opposition to their sated 'keep the ban list as short as reasonable'. And I would hardly call it a band-aid, we had it before and it caused more confusion than it was worth IMO.
From the article it seems like the issue was more the fact that there were barely any cards on it, but I agree that it would be weird to bring it back and add more cards to a banned list, even if not the official one.
I do think Ajani Vengeant would be a bad card to build around. You can't build around the first two abilities... they are just controlling abilities. If you want to build around the ultimate, then that is the problem.
I think any planeswalker with a gamewinning ultimate would have to be banned as a commander. Since there is no BaaC list, they would be outright banned. Sheldon mentioned this in his article about this thread - making all walkers commanders would also force them to ban a large portion of them.
Ajani Vengeant or Liliana of the Dark Realms are cards with generic uninteresting abilities when they are cast. I assume if you are building them it is to abuse the ultimates. So if 95% of their commander decks are made to force the ultimates, I think that they need to be banned as a commander.
Braids, Cabal Minion is not a terribly broken card. It just makes broken decks. And the RC doesn't want those decks around.
I am very much against PW generals that can win the game by themselves. If they combo with one other card - fine, it is the same as many other combos in the format. But being a self-contained win con is very frustrating.
My 'rule' for PW commanders would be: "if you can build around the first 2/3 abilities, it's good - if you can only build around the ultimate, it is not good for the format because all of the decks it will enable will be the same"
I don't understand this point of view at all. It just sounds like creating weird arbitrary rules.
What's wrong with building towards a game ender with your general? Are we worried that people might win a game after establishing complete board control? That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
They take their 4/5 mana walker and untap with it repeatedly, I'd hope they get some huge play off of it, because their + abilities are usually very small effects.
Keep in mind there are a number of generals that people just run for the colors and almost ignore the general outright.
I find that knowing that the ultimate will end the game warps the game around that general. I think that certain generals, like Ajani Vengeant and Liliana of the Dark Realms, or Dovin Baan, will focus entirely on the getting to the ultimate. There will be no variability - they will all be those decks. It is hard to deal with a commander that can win the game by itself and is immune to boardwipes. You can hope to attack it... but these walkers only enable one deck - Spam boardwipes until you ult.
I don't think it's fun. I don't think it helps Commander.
I am very much against PW generals that can win the game by themselves. [...] But being a self-contained win con is very frustrating.
So, better ban every commander that can turn sideways and win with general damage? Ack, watch out for those dreaded Elder Dragons! After 3 whole turns of uninterrupted attacking, they'll kill you all by themselves! Clearly too powerful for EDH. Ban plz.
Combat is easy to interact with. you can block.
That is the difference. Two legendary creatures going at it is a race, or combat math....
Planeswalker commanders do not need combat damage, they can just keep the board clear and fog until the game is over.
I don't know... I think there are a lot of unfun generals that only enable turbo fog decks.
Another reason that BaaC list is very weird is how often honestly do see a Commander like Derevi in the 99 of a deck anyway? Saying that if this is reinstated we will have to ban these Commanders who are just fine now feels very strange, also don't see many Arcum's running around not in the Commander spot.
Holding cards legality hostage that if that article is being honest they already have huge problems with.
I do think Ajani Vengeant would be a bad card to build around. You can't build around the first two abilities... they are just controlling abilities. If you want to build around the ultimate, then that is the problem.
I think any planeswalker with a gamewinning ultimate would have to be banned as a commander. Since there is no BaaC list, they would be outright banned. Sheldon mentioned this in his article about this thread - making all walkers commanders would also force them to ban a large portion of them.
Ajani Vengeant or Liliana of the Dark Realms are cards with generic uninteresting abilities when they are cast. I assume if you are building them it is to abuse the ultimates. So if 95% of their commander decks are made to force the ultimates, I think that they need to be banned as a commander.
Braids, Cabal Minion is not a terribly broken card. It just makes broken decks. And the RC doesn't want those decks around.
I am very much against PW generals that can win the game by themselves. If they combo with one other card - fine, it is the same as many other combos in the format. But being a self-contained win con is very frustrating.
My 'rule' for PW commanders would be: "if you can build around the first 2/3 abilities, it's good - if you can only build around the ultimate, it is not good for the format because all of the decks it will enable will be the same"
I don't understand this point of view at all. It just sounds like creating weird arbitrary rules.
What's wrong with building towards a game ender with your general? Are we worried that people might win a game after establishing complete board control? That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
They take their 4/5 mana walker and untap with it repeatedly, I'd hope they get some huge play off of it, because their + abilities are usually very small effects.
Keep in mind there are a number of generals that people just run for the colors and almost ignore the general outright.
I find that knowing that the ultimate will end the game warps the game around that general. I think that certain generals, like Ajani Vengeant and Liliana of the Dark Realms, or Dovin Baan, will focus entirely on the getting to the ultimate. There will be no variability - they will all be those decks. It is hard to deal with a commander that can win the game by itself and is immune to boardwipes. You can hope to attack it... but these walkers only enable one deck - Spam boardwipes until you ult.
I don't think it's fun. I don't think it helps Commander.
I am very much against PW generals that can win the game by themselves. [...] But being a self-contained win con is very frustrating.
So, better ban every commander that can turn sideways and win with general damage? Ack, watch out for those dreaded Elder Dragons! After 3 whole turns of uninterrupted attacking, they'll kill you all by themselves! Clearly too powerful for EDH. Ban plz.
Combat is easy to interact with. you can block.
That is the difference. Two legendary creatures going at it is a race, or combat math....
Planeswalker commanders do not need combat damage, they can just keep the board clear and fog until the game is over.
I don't know... I think there are a lot of unfun generals that only enable turbo fog decks.
I think you are being extremely not generous to how people build decks to assume that all Walker led decks will be the same, we already have a bunch of Walkers that can be Commanders and those don't all turn into board wipe fests.
Like in the case of Dovin specifically
You are saying with that bit about him that you are more worried about someone paying 3 mana and not being disrupted for 4 turns in a row than someone playing the same effect of that accumulation for just the 3 mana in an artifact? If someone wants to take that much time to build to that effect sure why not, that doesn't seem like it is that much value or that powerful even.
Planeswalkers do not live that long in the Commander games I play now, I don't think peoples desires to keep them down will lessen at all if you make them the Commander. So much speculation and assumption that just feels off with how the cards are used at present.
Planeswalkers do not live that long in the Commander games I play now, I don't think peoples desires to keep them down will lessen at all if you make them the Commander.
That is true, but I never had a problem of keeping daretti alive sililar with a friends freyalise. And by the time they are able to kill them you can play them again anyway maybe even twice. Without adequate numbers of PW removal it's easy to defend them long enough with blocks. If your deck is built around PW's you know to protect them if you only run pws in your 99 you are less likely to focus on their protection, just like with every other commander. If you build a Meren or a krenko deck you try to keep them alive and spend deckspace for exactly that, if you only run them in your 99 and your commander doesn't need the protection you are less likely to do so.
Planeswalkers do not live that long in the Commander games I play now, I don't think peoples desires to keep them down will lessen at all if you make them the Commander.
That is true, but I never had a problem of keeping daretti alive sililar with a friends freyalise. And by the time they are able to kill them you can play them again anyway maybe even twice. Without adequate numbers of PW removal it's easy to defend them long enough with blocks. If your deck is built around PW's you know to protect them if you only run pws in your 99 you are less likely to focus on their protection, just like with every other commander. If you build a Meren or a krenko deck you try to keep them alive and spend deckspace for exactly that, if you only run them in your 99 and your commander doesn't need the protection you are less likely to do so.
I wouldn't say that's a good argument. There is plenty of PW hate, destroy, bounce, counter removal, etc.
Just with WAR, there are like 18 cards in all colors which can deal with PW's, ranging from counterspells, removals, direct damage, destroy... Be it sorceries, instant, creatures.
Add all the other cards which were released up until now.
I would say people don't play that much of the PW removal because they don't have to. They usually use creatures to get rid of PW's.
I remember everyone playing all the 'shuffle into library' spells so you could get rid of enemy commander 'permanently'. Since the replacement rule for commanders, I don't see those effects anymore (except occasional Chaos Warp).
People would just packed more PW removal in their decks if PW's would ever become a legal generals. Then you would see how easy is to get rid of some Daretti or Freyalise.
While I agree that people would play more PW removal if they would become legal, I don't agree that there is plenty of removal for PWs a quick scryfall search reveals that there are <15 cards that deal with planeswalkers directly (and (semi)unconditionally) Mostly all in black.
Bounce doesn't really help as it's a delay and not many decks play many single target bounce cards anyway oh and those tend to be all blue just like the counterspells.
Direct damage is also limited in color and the ability to deal lethal damage to PW's.
Add in that most kinds of removal you will still get atleast one activation in anyways.
With creatures you have alot more ways to deal with them conditionally and unconditionally with pw's most of it is conditionally pretty much color limited. The few unconditional answers are even more color limited and alot of them aren't really playable.
Edit:
I dont even come close to the 18 you said looking through WAR
While I agree that people would play more PW removal if they would become legal, I don't agree that there is plenty of removal for PWs a quick scryfall search reveals that there are <15 cards that deal with planeswalkers directly (and (semi)unconditionally) Mostly all in black.
Bounce doesn't really help as it's a delay and not many decks play many single target bounce cards anyway oh and those tend to be all blue just like the counterspells.
Direct damage is also limited in color and the ability to deal lethal damage to PW's.
Add in that most kinds of removal you will still get atleast one activation in anyways.
With creatures you have alot more ways to deal with them conditionally and unconditionally with pw's most of it is conditionally pretty much color limited. The few unconditional answers are even more color limited and alot of them aren't really playable.
Edit:
I dont even come close to the 18 you said looking through WAR
Hey, got 20 of them.
And to note, I did not write down exile which exiles a specific color/s.
Most of them are white, but some can be in any deck.
And that is only exile.
Now add destroy, counterspells or direct spell damage.
I would bet you can find another 60+ cards how to deal with a planeswalker...
But I don't want to spend next hour checking all counterspells, burn, direct or indirect PW destroy and so on.
As for the 18 cards from WAR, I checked all that destroy PW, exile them, deal damage, remove counters and so.
Planeswalkers do not live that long in the Commander games I play now, I don't think peoples desires to keep them down will lessen at all if you make them the Commander.
That is true, but I never had a problem of keeping daretti alive sililar with a friends freyalise. And by the time they are able to kill them you can play them again anyway maybe even twice. Without adequate numbers of PW removal it's easy to defend them long enough with blocks. If your deck is built around PW's you know to protect them if you only run pws in your 99 you are less likely to focus on their protection, just like with every other commander. If you build a Meren or a krenko deck you try to keep them alive and spend deckspace for exactly that, if you only run them in your 99 and your commander doesn't need the protection you are less likely to do so.
Keeping them alive isn't that threatening to a table. It's similar to leaving something like a phyrexian arena sitting on the table, a noticeable but not gamebreaking persistent bonus.
Can you consistently ultimate is the real question, and if the answer to that is yes, I would say your deck is so far above your table that it doesn't matter what general you play, because they are unable to answer a single card.
Commander is already a flat busted pay-to-win format when taken to its extreme. If you're worried about Tezzeret combo decks then you're worried about the wrong thing.
It's a casual format for people to have fun with, and from that perspective there's really no reason that PWs can't be allowed. Your friend can already stroll up with a busted Derevi or Edric or Teferi deck any time they want; the banlist isn't what's keeping this format together.
At the least they could do a 'legal for 1 month' thing for War of the Spark like they did with un-cards for Unstable.
Exclusion Ritual --> Total lockdown on the selected PW Ixalan's Binding --> Total lockdown on the selected PW
It kills them but doesnt lock them out since they can just be put in the command zone negating the imprint exile.
Thats 20 cards either pretty much color specific (only 2 of those arent white) or Pretty expensive answers(Legacy Weapon, Ashen Rider, Scour from Existence, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger). And still only 20 answers. In a commander game alot of the time you need to answer a commander multiple times. You need a lot more answers in all colors and possibly cheaper than that.
Direct Damage needs to be at least 4 to be even able to kill half of the existing PWs and that only if they didn't use the +Abilities (Remember they have priority)
Keeping them alive isn't that threatening to a table. It's similar to leaving something like a phyrexian arena sitting on the table, a noticeable but not gamebreaking persistent bonus.
Depends on the walker alot of them have way bigger bonuses that are threatening, add to the fact that you can't leave alone of them alone due to ultimates, so I do think that is an unfair comparison.
Can you consistently ultimate is the real question, and if the answer to that is yes, I would say your deck is so far above your table that it doesn't matter what general you play, because they are unable to answer a single card
See the thing is there aren't that many answers so it doesn't neccesarly mean your deck is way above them it just means there are to little answers.
Commander is already a flat busted pay-to-win format when taken to its extreme. If you're worried about Tezzeret combo decks then you're worried about the wrong thing.
It's a casual format for people to have fun with, and from that perspective there's really no reason that PWs can't be allowed.
I agree with the there are many busted things and the casual format for people to have fun with, but because of those reasons I think its a bad Idea to make the change for everyone. The reason is PUGs and stuff like magic online there are people who don't like PWs as commanders (or even in general) and I think there are more who dont like them as generals as those who do (see poll) and for those people you will ruin their fun. Thats what I meant with the smaller group can always Houserule it is more difficult with the larger Group.
But I do agree about the Trial they coul test it out
Commander is already a flat busted pay-to-win format when taken to its extreme. If you're worried about Tezzeret combo decks then you're worried about the wrong thing.
It's a casual format for people to have fun with, and from that perspective there's really no reason that PWs can't be allowed. Your friend can already stroll up with a busted Derevi or Edric or Teferi deck any time they want; the banlist isn't what's keeping this format together.
At the least they could do a 'legal for 1 month' thing for War of the Spark like they did with un-cards for Unstable.
Look at Leovold. You can build a deck around him without Windfall effects.... but everyone included them. The deck was everywhere and pretty much always the same thing.
The issue isn't that any single planeswalker is busted as a commander. The issue is that many planeswalkers are simply only fitting into one style of deck. Why open up Commander to that many potential Leovold-like situations? Bans are not made on power level usually, they are made on ubiquity and health of the format.
I would say that repeatable wraths from the command zone interacts poorly with the current state of Commander. Thus, I think Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a problem. Furthermore, she wins the game in a few turns if you do not have flyers. This combination of abilities in the command zone is almost unique. Child of Alara could be considered similar, but is 5 colours and needs to jump through hoops to be used multiple times.
Obviously there is disagreement about the style of decks that certain planeswalkers will enable.
To address some of the responses to my previous posts....
I think that many planeswalkers:
1. Warp the game around them racing to their ult
2. Have the ability to repeatedly do things from the command zone that are very concerning (tutor, wrath, steal artifacts)
3. Offer no interesting deck building strategies leading to a horde of similar-style decks trying to stall the opponents until the ultimate is reached
I understand that some of you disagree with this, but I still can't understand how there can be any good coming out of making something like Liliana of the Dark Realms a general. And I am saying that as someone who would 100% play her as a general in my monoblack deck over Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath. Ob Nixilis sucks. I use him to make tokens. Nobody is afraid of the ult because it is really not game winning (maybe over a long period, but not immediately). Liliana would become the focus of every opponent because in a few short turns they know that my Torrent of Hailfire other X effects will immediately end the game. So, I can just use my boardwipes and spot removal to keep her alive for a few turns... if someone pulls out a vindicate, I just start again.... this is my problem... the whole game is warped around the planeswalker.
I understand that a 7/7 flyer can win the game in 3 turns from the command zone.
It is just so much easier to deal with. So much of the game is centred around creatures.
A lot of decks use Grave Pacts to deal with opponents. Are you telling me Martyr's Bond is as versatile?
I get that there are more ways to deal with planeswalkers now. And I get that people will probably take out their Austere Commands and throw in Merciless Evictions. And I get that haste will become stronger. I just think it is so much easier to build a deck around protecting a planeswalker than it is to build a deck around protecting a creature.
And I am serious that if they brought back BaaC list that I would have no problem with making PWs commanders.
But Sheldon brought up that if they became legal many would have to be banned. And I don't like having a bunch of cards I really like banned so that people can play Jace Beleren as a commander.
I'll bite the bullet. I will try to be open-minded about what other people would consider fun to build around. Obviously you may still disagree, but this is to help me figure out how I feel about this.
Commanders I think are boring and offer nothing to commander other than flavour (basically, those that I think are not worth changing the rules for): 47
Ajani Goldmane
Ajani, Wise Counselor
Angrath, Captain of Chaos
Angrath, Minotaur Pirate (there are better ways to reanimate pirates)
Angrath, the Flame-Chained (first two abilities are very minor and not unique, last ability is so-so)
Chandra Ablaze
Chandra Nalaar
Chandra, Bold Pyromancer
Chandra, Pyrogenius
Chandra, Pyromaster
Domri, City Smasher
Elspeth, Knight-Errant (good card, but really generic for commander)
Gideon Jura
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Gideon, Martial Paragon
Gideon the oathsworn
Huatli, Dinosaur Knight
Huatli, Warrior Poet
Jace Beleren
Jace, Arcane Strategist
Jace, Ingenious Mind-Mage
Jace, Memory Adept
Jace, the Living Guildpact
Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Kiora, Master of the Depths
Liliana, Death Wielder
Liliana, the Necromancer
Mu Yanling
Nicol Bolas, The Deceiver
Nissa Revane
Nissa, Genesis Mage
Nissa, Nature's Artisan
Ob Nixilis, Reignited
Ral, Caller of STorms
Samut, Tyrant Smasher
Sarkhan Vol
Sarkhan, Dragonsoul
Teferi, Timebender
Tezzeret the Schemer
Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist
The Wanderer
Tibalt, the fiend-blooded
Vivien of the Arkbow
Vraska, Regal Gorgon
Vraska, Scheming Gorgon
Commanders I think are interesting to build around: 84
Ajani Unyielding
Ajani Steadfast (though the emblem is often gamewinning, there are a lot of ways around it)
Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants
Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Ajani, the Greathearted
Arlinn Kord
Arlinn, Voice of the Pack (for tribal I guess)
Ashiok, Dream Render
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Chandra, Fire Artisan
Chandra, the Firebrand
Chadra, Torch of Defiance
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Domri Rade
Domri, Anarch of Bolas
Domri, Chaos Bringer
Dovin, Architect of law
Dovin, Grand Arbiter
Dovin, Hand of Control (though I hate that this is uncommon in this set, I think it will ruin limited games)
Garruk Relentless
Garruk Wildspeaker
Garruk, Apex Predator
Garruk, Caller of beasts
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Gideon Blackblade
Huatli, Radiant Champion
Huatli, the Sun's Heart
Jace, Cunning Castaway
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Jaya Ballard
Jaya, Venerated FireMage
Jiang Yanggu, Wildcrafter
Karn, Scion of Urza
Kaya, Bane of the dead
Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Kiora, Behemoth Reckoner
Koth of the Hammer - I think - I think the emblem is problematic, but maybe I am wrong
Liliana of the Veil
Liliana Vess
Liliana, Death's Majesty
Liliana, Dreadhorde General
Liliana, the Last Hope
Liliana, Untouched by death
Nahiri, Storm of Stone
Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Nissa, Vital Force
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Nissa, Who Shakes the World (assuming this is more Vorinclex and less Rofellos)
Nissa, Worldwaker
Ob-Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted
Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Ral, Storm Conduit
Saheeli Rai
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
Samut, the Tested
Sarkhan the Mad
Sarkhan the Masterless
Sarkhan Unbroken
Sarkhan, Fireblood
Sarkhan, Dragonspeaker
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
Tamiyo, Collector of Tales
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Teferi, Time raveler
Teyo, the Shieldmage
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Tezzeret, Artifice Master
Tibalt, Rakish Instigator
Ugin, the Ineffable
Vivien Reid
Vivien, Champion of the Wilds
Vraska the Unseen
Vraska, Golgari Queen
Vraska, Swarm's Embrace
Xenagos, the Reveler
Commanders that concern me (for various reasons) and that I think could end up being banned: 27
Ajani Vengeant (offers nothing except an unbalanced Armageddon in the command zone)
Ajani, Valiant Protector (second ability is very concerning for Commander since you can tutor a specific creature)
Chandra, Flamecaller (repeatable wrath from the command zone)
Dack Fayden (-2 is really tough on non-green decks - there was a Commander Vs with him and it was so busted)
Dovin Baan (ult is super unfun ends the game, other abilities just lend themselves to stalling out the game until he ults)
Elspeth Tirel (super easy to ult and to use repeatedly to wrath from the command zone)
Elspeth, Sun's Champion (repeatable wraths and easy to deploy synergistic win condition all in one package)
Gideon of the Trials (obvious)
Gideon, Champion of Justice (so obvious, only exists to rush game ending ult)
Jace, Architect of Thought (first two abilities are generic, ult wins the game)
Jace, Unraveler of secrets (first two abilities are generic, ult wins the game)
Jiang Yanggu (basically, when this hits, you need a boardwipe or a way to hit him... because the game ends after that... annoying to have that 2 turn clock in the command zone)
Karn Liberated (restarting 4 player games is a huge time sink)
Liliana of the Dark Realms (generic abilities... except for ult which wins the game)
Nahiri, the Harbinger (the -2 is very strong, but most people will be racing to put Blightsteel or another game ending card into play)
Narset Transcendent (I played this card in Standard and ultimated it a lot... this is easy to protect and to win with)
Narset, Parter of Veils (Leovold # 2)
Ral Zarek (boring abilities, crazy ultimate that is disproportionately powerful in multiplayer)
Sorin Markov (common banlist discussion card, would need to be banned)
Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Tezzeret the Seeker
Tezzeret, Master of Metal (+1 that tutors could be a problem - you could just put Bolas' Citatel, Sensei's Divining Top and Aetherflux Reservoir for example)
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge (bahroken)
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Venser, the Sojourner
Vraska, Relic Seeker (I think too good at winning the game)
Okay, so clearly, I would say that there are a lot of PWs to build around because they do something unique and interesting.
But I am not thrilled with 27 planeswalkers that I believe would need to be part of banlist discussions because I feel their decks would all be built to focus on the ultimate (or because of other abilities undesirable in the command zone).
I only went through this once, so I am sure there are cards that could be switched categories for reasons I did not consider... but I think that it makes a good illustration of my concerns.
By the way, there are plenty of Legendary creatures I would also say are problematic as commanders, which is again why I want BaaC back. Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Arcum Dagsson and Derevi are 3 that come to mind. They are never fun.
Commanders that concern me (for various reasons) and that I think could end up being banned: 27
I'll try:
Ajani Vengeant --> ultimate sounds strong, but targets only one player and is not game winning. Annoying, yes, but you need 5 turns to activate it to make one enemy's life miserable. Not banable. Ajani, Valiant Protector --> you can tutor a specific creature if you have very few creatures in deck. Which is not a good strategy how to protect him, when you play almost creatureless deck. I don't doubt it could be somehow abused, but how is it different from Polymorph or Proteus Staff decks? Not banable. Chandra, Flamecaller --> 4 damage to each creature costing 6/8/10 mana. Wouldn't call it a wrath. I think the first 2 abilities are more interesting. Would it be a bit annoying and anti-aggro? Probably yes. Broken and banable? Barely. Dack Fayden --> why is stealing artefact a problem? Yes, he get's your Sol Ring. Or some signet. Not strong. The ultimate is the thing I would watch out for. Banable? Not outright, but definitely would be watching this PW. Dovin Baan --> so a Static Orb but needs 4 rounds to get going. Game winning? Could be, definitely annoying, but so is any stax deck. Would keep it on radar. Elspeth Tirel --> not sure how to evaluate this one. I don't find that wrath that problematic... Annoying? Yes. But does not reset games and doesn't destroy lands or tokens. In my group this wouldn't be a problematic general, but I can imagine why some people wouldn't like to play against it. Elspeth, Sun's Champion - technically a wrath, but it let's you keep all creatures with power 3 and less. So it kind of repeatable Retribution of the Meek. Again, just like Elspeth above, but the wrath is even weaker. Ultimate is nice, but still not game winning in itself. Gideon of the Trials - not so obvious actually. Yes, you can't lose while he is in play. And? you can still get -15 life and once someone blinks him, return's him to your hand, removes him or so, you immediately lost. Maybe I am missing something but I don't find this banable at all. Gideon, Champion of Justice - with token strategy, his ulti is game-winning. This would be BaaC. Jace, Architect of Thought - how does the ultimate wins the game? You will find 3 cards from 3 different decks and play them withou paying their mana costs. Could potentially lead to some combo, but the ultimate itself is not game winning and highly depends on what your opponents play. You use their cards against them. Totally not banable. Jace, Unraveler of secrets - Yes, the ultimate is strong. But again, not game-winning by itself. Annoying, yes. Not totally the same, but palyed against Kira, Great Glass-Spinner and it was not that horrible as it looked like. Yes his emblem is stronger and Erayo is banned, so I would keep him in radar as well. But wouldn't ban him right away. Jiang Yanggu --> what? He hit's the field and gives ONE creature +X/+X based on number of your lands and trample. How does the game ends when he hits the field? What two turns? I think you misread his ultimate. Because outside of ONE bug trample creature, which maybe won't even kill one player, hes not even a threat at all. Totally not banable. Karn Liberated --> restart the game would be the problematic part. But he's in colorless, needs 3 turns to do that, exiles 2 cards in the process which if they are permanents, the player keeps. So you reset yourself and everyone else to 0 lands, full hand, full life and hoping they exiled some permanents from their hands. But I understand why it would be annoying to get regular game restarts. So BaaC. Liliana of the Dark Realms --> had her as a general for several months as the head of my monoblack. Ultimate is not game winning by itself, but you need cardss like Exsanguinate or others. I think Sidisi, Undead Vizier is numerous times worse than this Lili. Not banable. Nahiri, the Harbinger --> yes the -2 is strong, but hits only tapped creature, tapped artifact or enchantment. Combo with Blightsteel Colossus sounds good, but then you realise anything with toughness 2 means you won't kill that player and also you need to return the creature back to your hand. How is Nahiri stronger than.. lets say Ilharg, the Raze-Boar who can do the same, but better? Yes she tutors, but is onetime attack. He doesn't but can do it every turn. Not banable. Narset Transcendent --> can imagine this in standard. But this is not standard. I think the -2 would be more used than the ultimate. Also, most creature-ehavy decks like Edgar Markov or Ruric Thar, the Unbowed would laugh at her ultimate and just kill her. But I would keep her on radar. Narset, Parter of Veils --> we can agree on this, Leovold 2.0. So BaaC Ral Zarek --> I don't understand why is his ultimate 'disproportionally powerful' in multiplayer. Yes, he can have 5 or 0 extra turns. Unless he kills the whole board in those turns or comboes out somehow, the ultimate is not game winning by itself. Mizzix, the Izmagus can combo out faster or give himself infinite turns as well. But would keep it on radar, just so people can test it and we could decide later. I don't find him broken. Sorin Markov --> setting life to 10 is not game winning, controlling player's turn also not. Magister Sphinx cost only 1 more and does it as well. Not from command zone, but does and I never saw it even discussed regarding the banlist. I think that Sorin would make archenemy games, not win them outright. But for the peace, let's put him BaaC. Tamiyo, Field Researcher --> again, Omniscience is not game winning by itself and unless you draw half of your library, the game is far from over. Keep it on radar. Teferi, Hero of Dominaria --> we can agree on this one, BaaC. Tezzeret the Seeker --> Ultimate is not gamewinning by itself and I would say he is slower Arcum Dagsson, who is not banned. So not banned. Tezzeret, Master of Metal --> those cards could, but you could only put 3 artefacts in your deck to get it 'consistently'. 6 CMC PW, taking 3 turns to find a 3 card combo. Well, now that is totally not banable. Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge --> ok, he looks storng. Would like to test him, but probably right BaaC. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon --> had him as a general for several games, turned back to Kozilek, The great distortion. Ugin looks broken, but he is in colorless, doesn't fill you the hand after you dump all your hand full of artefacts into play so you can cast him. Exile is strong, but ultimate is far from game winning. I find card draw with counterspells better than occasional colored exile. Tested it myself so from my view not banable. Venser, the Sojourner --> probably BaaC, just like Teferi above. Vraska, Relic Seeker --> Similar to Sorin, would like to test her first, but for the peace, let's put her into BaaC.
So out of your 27 generals:
Not banable - 14
On Radar - 5
BaaC - 8
But this would require to bring back Banned as a Commander.
Where things like Leovold, Braids, Erayo, Griselbrand or Rofellos could go as well.
Commanders that concern me (for various reasons) and that I think could end up being banned: 27
I'll try:
Ajani Vengeant --> ultimate sounds strong, but targets only one player and is not game winning. Annoying, yes, but you need 5 turns to activate it to make one enemy's life miserable. Not banable. I am not saying it is easy to ult, I am saying it is the only part of Ajani you can build around so the decks will all be centered around ruining one player's fun... Ajani, Valiant Protector --> you can tutor a specific creature if you have very few creatures in deck. Which is not a good strategy how to protect him, when you play almost creatureless deck. I don't doubt it could be somehow abused, but how is it different from Polymorph or Proteus Staff decks? Not banable. for one, those cards are not in the command zone Chandra, Flamecaller --> 4 damage to each creature costing 6/8/10 mana. Wouldn't call it a wrath. I think the first 2 abilities are more interesting. Would it be a bit annoying and anti-aggro? Probably yes. Broken and banable? Barely. Agree that it probably would not be banned, but I think any repeatable wrath needs to be on the radar Dack Fayden --> why is stealing artefact a problem? Yes, he get's your Sol Ring. Or some signet. Not strong. The ultimate is the thing I would watch out for. Banable? Not outright, but definitely would be watching this PW.By turn 3, how many mana rocks do your opponents have? How many value artifacts? The repeatable theft is what makes it annoying. Watch that commander VS is was brutal to watch Dovin Baan --> so a Static Orb but needs 4 rounds to get going. Game winning? Could be, definitely annoying, but so is any stax deck. Would keep it on radar.it is asymmetrical Elspeth Tirel --> not sure how to evaluate this one. I don't find that wrath that problematic... Annoying? Yes. But does not reset games and doesn't destroy lands or tokens. In my group this wouldn't be a problematic general, but I can imagine why some people wouldn't like to play against it.again, just fearful of the way it can repeatedly wrath Elspeth, Sun's Champion - technically a wrath, but it let's you keep all creatures with power 3 and less. So it kind of repeatable Retribution of the Meek. Again, just like Elspeth above, but the wrath is even weaker. Ultimate is nice, but still not game winning in itself.ult is not necessarily game ending but often game ending. I think she makes it impossible to play if you are playing creatures that have more than 4 power... that seems powerful and unfun. Gideon of the Trials - not so obvious actually. Yes, you can't lose while he is in play. And? you can still get -15 life and once someone blinks him, return's him to your hand, removes him or so, you immediately lost. Maybe I am missing something but I don't find this banable at all. Are there any commanders that say you cannot lose? I think it is super dangerous text to have in the command zone Gideon, Champion of Justice - with token strategy, his ulti is game-winning. This would be BaaC. Jace, Architect of Thought - how does the ultimate wins the game? You will find 3 cards from 3 different decks and play them withou paying their mana costs. Could potentially lead to some combo, but the ultimate itself is not game winning and highly depends on what your opponents play. You use their cards against them. Totally not banable.if this is your commander, your deck has mass bounce, extra turn spells, 1-2 big eldrazi, maybe a time stretch or Omniscience... I just don't see how you would build it without being able to come way ahead while picking your opponents' best 3 spells. Jace, Unraveler of secrets - Yes, the ultimate is strong. But again, not game-winning by itself. Annoying, yes. Not totally the same, but palyed against Kira, Great Glass-Spinner and it was not that horrible as it looked like. Yes his emblem is stronger and Erayo is banned, so I would keep him in radar as well. But wouldn't ban him right away. I am not saying anything gets banned right away. But this will be similar to Erayo Jiang Yanggu --> what? He hit's the field and gives ONE creature +X/+X based on number of your lands and trample. How does the game ends when he hits the field? What two turns? I think you misread his ultimate. Because outside of ONE bug trample creature, which maybe won't even kill one player, hes not even a threat at all. Totally not banable. oops Karn Liberated --> restart the game would be the problematic part. But he's in colorless, needs 3 turns to do that, exiles 2 cards in the process which if they are permanents, the player keeps. So you reset yourself and everyone else to 0 lands, full hand, full life and hoping they exiled some permanents from their hands. But I understand why it would be annoying to get regular game restarts. So BaaC. Liliana of the Dark Realms --> had her as a general for several months as the head of my monoblack. Ultimate is not game winning by itself, but you need cardss like Exsanguinate or others. I think Sidisi, Undead Vizier is numerous times worse than this Lili. Not banable.I would like to see the meta. Because when I play her in the 99 the game warps around her Nahiri, the Harbinger --> yes the -2 is strong, but hits only tapped creature, tapped artifact or enchantment. Combo with Blightsteel Colossus sounds good, but then you realise anything with toughness 2 means you won't kill that player and also you need to return the creature back to your hand. How is Nahiri stronger than.. lets say Ilharg, the Raze-Boar who can do the same, but better? Yes she tutors, but is onetime attack. He doesn't but can do it every turn. Not banable.I will bend on this one, I guess... I just find the whole point is to race to ult which is not the kind of magic I like... still, it will probably be fine Narset Transcendent --> can imagine this in standard. But this is not standard. I think the -2 would be more used than the ultimate. Also, most creature-ehavy decks like Edgar Markov or Ruric Thar, the Unbowed would laugh at her ultimate and just kill her. But I would keep her on radar.Same argument as Iona? Some decks are not affected while others are? I think it would be discussed. Narset, Parter of Veils --> we can agree on this, Leovold 2.0. So BaaC Ral Zarek --> I don't understand why is his ultimate 'disproportionally powerful' in multiplayer. Yes, he can have 5 or 0 extra turns. Unless he kills the whole board in those turns or comboes out somehow, the ultimate is not game winning by itself. Mizzix, the Izmagus can combo out faster or give himself infinite turns as well. But would keep it on radar, just so people can test it and we could decide later. I don't find him broken.I was not 100% on this... but extra turn spells are worth more when it is 3 opponents skipping their turn Sorin Markov --> setting life to 10 is not game winning, controlling player's turn also not. Magister Sphinx cost only 1 more and does it as well. Not from command zone, but does and I never saw it even discussed regarding the banlist. I think that Sorin would make archenemy games, not win them outright. But for the peace, let's put him BaaC. Tamiyo, Field Researcher --> again, Omniscience is not game winning by itself and unless you draw half of your library, the game is far from over. Keep it on radar. My concern is also how easy it is to get extra counters on her in these colours... Teferi, Hero of Dominaria --> we can agree on this one, BaaC. Tezzeret the Seeker --> Ultimate is not gamewinning by itself and I would say he is slower Arcum Dagsson, who is not banned. So not banned.There was a post about a cEDH player who specifically mentioned this card being instantly bannable. Arcum has hoops to go through. Tezzeret can tutor mana rocks, Chain Veil, combo pieces.... nobody would use the ult. Tezzeret, Master of Metal --> those cards could, but you could only put 3 artefacts in your deck to get it 'consistently'. 6 CMC PW, taking 3 turns to find a 3 card combo. Well, now that is totally not banable.it depends... if that is all people do with him, then yes. I imagine a chain veil would be in there too. All of this is with the caveat that it is present enough that it becomes a concern. This is on my radar as it makes games run very repetitively. Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge --> ok, he looks storng. Would like to test him, but probably right BaaC. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon --> had him as a general for several games, turned back to Kozilek, The great distortion. Ugin looks broken, but he is in colorless, doesn't fill you the hand after you dump all your hand full of artefacts into play so you can cast him. Exile is strong, but ultimate is far from game winning. I find card draw with counterspells better than occasional colored exile. Tested it myself so from my view not banable. I think the repeatable board wipe would be unfun for most. Ult is good but not broken. Venser, the Sojourner --> probably BaaC, just like Teferi above. Vraska, Relic Seeker --> Similar to Sorin, would like to test her first, but for the peace, let's put her into BaaC.
So out of your 27 generals:
Not banable - 14
On Radar - 5
BaaC - 8
But this would require to bring back Banned as a Commander.
Where things like Leovold, Braids, Erayo, Griselbrand or Rofellos could go as well.
Thanks for the discussion. Even if it was 8 bans (which I think is short, but that's opinion), I think the RC would have to weigh the pros and cons heavily. The pros include how many PWs actually make for new interesting decks. And it is not like 8 new decks compensate for 8 bans... we can play all these cards right now.
I agree that philosophically, PWs should be allowed as commanders. I also think that BaaC list is the only way to do this without causing a lot of EDH players a lot of grief.
You would put...liliana of the dark realms in the banned category.
Can you take a step back and realize what you just said there?
Can you take a good hard look at what you just said there please?
Edit: I looked through the list of cards you think are problematic and most of those things are substantially worse than the average casual play I see. Commander is a powerful format. It takes a LOT for a card to be problematic.
I agree Liliana of the dark realm is one of the ones I wouldn't see as problematic my problematic list would be shorter in general, but my list of interesting (read new/unique ) build arounds would also be shorter by alot.
Sheldon's latest article states they aren't considering taking the steps to make PWs legal right now, along with a nice quip aimed at Narset (she's on the watch list with Bolas's Citadel for being "too rough" for the format). "Aren't you glad this isn't coming from the command zone?"
You would put...liliana of the dark realms in the banned category.
Can you take a step back and realize what you just said there?
Can you take a good hard look at what you just said there please?
Edit: I looked through the list of cards you think are problematic and most of those things are substantially worse than the average casual play I see. Commander is a powerful format. It takes a LOT for a card to be problematic.
IT is not a question of power.
IT is a question of how Liliana warps the game.
I play her in the 99. You tick her up a few times, nobody cares. But then they work together to kill her before the emblem.
Now, in a deck that is centered around making her ult - you won't get a chance to attack her. So then it becomes - Do you have spot removal?
And how many spot removal spells will you have, because she is in the command zone.
I think she is a very poor general because her first 2 abilities are not 'build around' abilities and the last ability is completely broken... so all you can do with her is try to do something broken.
I think this lines up very poorly with the commander format.
I am willing to acknowledge that all of my lists are my best guess. I think Liliana would have to be monitored for the same reason as Dovin Baan, who is a terrible walker. The only worthwhile thing to do with them is emblem... so all the decks you can build around them will be built to stall until there is an emblem.
It's not fun! The games become a constant rush to stop Liliana from hitting her ult. Now, maybe Liliana is slow enough that it doesn't matter... but I think it needs to be considered.
What do you mean you won't get a chance to attack liliana?
If the player is capable of maintaining complete board control against 3 opponents, I think they deserve a payoff. Even a llanowar elf can lock liliana out from ulting until it's removed. A lightning bolt means that ulting liliana will take so many turns as to not be a problem, by the time it's ticked up that high players will be hard casting eldrazi.
And if she dies once, suddenly you need multiple turns with your 6 mana planewalker, or 8 mana planeswalker.
If you want to talk about problematic cards that create unfun situations because they tick up to game enders, how about we talk about the *currently legal* ones like purphoros, god of the forge, which is legitimately almost impossible to remove and will end the game with ETB effects regardless of removal in about as many turns as it takes liliana to build up to her ult.
Commander can handle purphoros, but you think it can't handle walker ultimates?
there are literally more ways to get rid of purphoros than planeswalkers unconditionally, and purphoros is already a problem for alot of groups.
Edit: Not true if Purphoros isn't a creature but point still stands as lack of removal is to be considered.
there are literally more ways to get rid of purphoros than planeswalkers unconditionally, and purphoros is already a problem for alot of groups.
This is a very misleading way of putting it.
You cannot attack purphoros.
He's an indestructible enchantment. The amount of cards the average deck runs to answer an indestructible enchantment is probably between 1 and 2.
It doesn't matter if the cards exist, are people running them? Are they playable when purphoros isn't at the table?
Because almost every deck out there runs a myriad of ways to interact with a planeswalker. Any creatures, bounce, burn, planeswalker removal and/or permanent removal will all make it much harder to execute a planeswalker plan.
And yet there was no discussion about purphoros being legal when it was printed. It was just brought in no problem.
And yet there was no discussion about purphoros being legal when it was printed. It was just brought in no problem.
He’s the one pointing out how one cycle of legendary creatures that are hard to remove didnt raise any eyebrows (which is wrong, people knew how powerful indestructible commanders in the zone were) but peope are doing it for a whole subset of cards that would become legal commanders over night
Also, Leovold too was brought in no problem, he was just later banned, dunno what your point was meant to be.
Not sure how this is still a topic after about four posts this month alone from the RC stating they aren’t even considering this.
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From the article it seems like the issue was more the fact that there were barely any cards on it, but I agree that it would be weird to bring it back and add more cards to a banned list, even if not the official one.
I find that knowing that the ultimate will end the game warps the game around that general. I think that certain generals, like Ajani Vengeant and Liliana of the Dark Realms, or Dovin Baan, will focus entirely on the getting to the ultimate. There will be no variability - they will all be those decks. It is hard to deal with a commander that can win the game by itself and is immune to boardwipes. You can hope to attack it... but these walkers only enable one deck - Spam boardwipes until you ult.
I don't think it's fun. I don't think it helps Commander.
Combat is easy to interact with. you can block.
That is the difference. Two legendary creatures going at it is a race, or combat math....
Planeswalker commanders do not need combat damage, they can just keep the board clear and fog until the game is over.
I don't know... I think there are a lot of unfun generals that only enable turbo fog decks.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Holding cards legality hostage that if that article is being honest they already have huge problems with.
I think you are being extremely not generous to how people build decks to assume that all Walker led decks will be the same, we already have a bunch of Walkers that can be Commanders and those don't all turn into board wipe fests.
Like in the case of Dovin specifically
You are saying with that bit about him that you are more worried about someone paying 3 mana and not being disrupted for 4 turns in a row than someone playing the same effect of that accumulation for just the 3 mana in an artifact? If someone wants to take that much time to build to that effect sure why not, that doesn't seem like it is that much value or that powerful even.
Planeswalkers do not live that long in the Commander games I play now, I don't think peoples desires to keep them down will lessen at all if you make them the Commander. So much speculation and assumption that just feels off with how the cards are used at present.
I wouldn't say that's a good argument. There is plenty of PW hate, destroy, bounce, counter removal, etc.
Just with WAR, there are like 18 cards in all colors which can deal with PW's, ranging from counterspells, removals, direct damage, destroy... Be it sorceries, instant, creatures.
Add all the other cards which were released up until now.
I would say people don't play that much of the PW removal because they don't have to. They usually use creatures to get rid of PW's.
I remember everyone playing all the 'shuffle into library' spells so you could get rid of enemy commander 'permanently'. Since the replacement rule for commanders, I don't see those effects anymore (except occasional Chaos Warp).
People would just packed more PW removal in their decks if PW's would ever become a legal generals. Then you would see how easy is to get rid of some Daretti or Freyalise.
Bounce doesn't really help as it's a delay and not many decks play many single target bounce cards anyway oh and those tend to be all blue just like the counterspells.
Direct damage is also limited in color and the ability to deal lethal damage to PW's.
Add in that most kinds of removal you will still get atleast one activation in anyways.
With creatures you have alot more ways to deal with them conditionally and unconditionally with pw's most of it is conditionally pretty much color limited. The few unconditional answers are even more color limited and alot of them aren't really playable.
Edit:
I dont even come close to the 18 you said looking through WAR
Quick search reveals something else...
Exile:
Anguished Unmaking
Archon of Justice
Ashen Rider
Banishing Light
Cast Out
Conclave Tribunal
Deputy of Detention
Despark
Detention Sphere
Exclusion Ritual --> Total lockdown on the selected PW
Fractured Identity
Hieromancer's Cage
Ixalan's Binding --> Total lockdown on the selected PW
Legacy Weapon
Mangara of Corondor
Oblivion Ring
Quarantine Field
Scour from Existence
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Utter End
Hey, got 20 of them.
And to note, I did not write down exile which exiles a specific color/s.
Most of them are white, but some can be in any deck.
And that is only exile.
Now add destroy, counterspells or direct spell damage.
I would bet you can find another 60+ cards how to deal with a planeswalker...
But I don't want to spend next hour checking all counterspells, burn, direct or indirect PW destroy and so on.
As for the 18 cards from WAR, I checked all that destroy PW, exile them, deal damage, remove counters and so.
Keeping them alive isn't that threatening to a table. It's similar to leaving something like a phyrexian arena sitting on the table, a noticeable but not gamebreaking persistent bonus.
Can you consistently ultimate is the real question, and if the answer to that is yes, I would say your deck is so far above your table that it doesn't matter what general you play, because they are unable to answer a single card.
It's a casual format for people to have fun with, and from that perspective there's really no reason that PWs can't be allowed. Your friend can already stroll up with a busted Derevi or Edric or Teferi deck any time they want; the banlist isn't what's keeping this format together.
At the least they could do a 'legal for 1 month' thing for War of the Spark like they did with un-cards for Unstable.
- Rabid Wombat
Thats 20 cards either pretty much color specific (only 2 of those arent white) or Pretty expensive answers(Legacy Weapon, Ashen Rider, Scour from Existence, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger). And still only 20 answers. In a commander game alot of the time you need to answer a commander multiple times. You need a lot more answers in all colors and possibly cheaper than that.
Direct Damage needs to be at least 4 to be even able to kill half of the existing PWs and that only if they didn't use the +Abilities (Remember they have priority)
Depends on the walker alot of them have way bigger bonuses that are threatening, add to the fact that you can't leave alone of them alone due to ultimates, so I do think that is an unfair comparison.
See the thing is there aren't that many answers so it doesn't neccesarly mean your deck is way above them it just means there are to little answers.
I agree with the there are many busted things and the casual format for people to have fun with, but because of those reasons I think its a bad Idea to make the change for everyone. The reason is PUGs and stuff like magic online there are people who don't like PWs as commanders (or even in general) and I think there are more who dont like them as generals as those who do (see poll) and for those people you will ruin their fun. Thats what I meant with the smaller group can always Houserule it is more difficult with the larger Group.
But I do agree about the Trial they coul test it out
Look at Leovold. You can build a deck around him without Windfall effects.... but everyone included them. The deck was everywhere and pretty much always the same thing.
The issue isn't that any single planeswalker is busted as a commander. The issue is that many planeswalkers are simply only fitting into one style of deck. Why open up Commander to that many potential Leovold-like situations? Bans are not made on power level usually, they are made on ubiquity and health of the format.
I would say that repeatable wraths from the command zone interacts poorly with the current state of Commander. Thus, I think Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a problem. Furthermore, she wins the game in a few turns if you do not have flyers. This combination of abilities in the command zone is almost unique. Child of Alara could be considered similar, but is 5 colours and needs to jump through hoops to be used multiple times.
Obviously there is disagreement about the style of decks that certain planeswalkers will enable.
To address some of the responses to my previous posts....
I think that many planeswalkers:
1. Warp the game around them racing to their ult
2. Have the ability to repeatedly do things from the command zone that are very concerning (tutor, wrath, steal artifacts)
3. Offer no interesting deck building strategies leading to a horde of similar-style decks trying to stall the opponents until the ultimate is reached
I understand that some of you disagree with this, but I still can't understand how there can be any good coming out of making something like Liliana of the Dark Realms a general. And I am saying that as someone who would 100% play her as a general in my monoblack deck over Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath. Ob Nixilis sucks. I use him to make tokens. Nobody is afraid of the ult because it is really not game winning (maybe over a long period, but not immediately). Liliana would become the focus of every opponent because in a few short turns they know that my Torrent of Hailfire other X effects will immediately end the game. So, I can just use my boardwipes and spot removal to keep her alive for a few turns... if someone pulls out a vindicate, I just start again.... this is my problem... the whole game is warped around the planeswalker.
I understand that a 7/7 flyer can win the game in 3 turns from the command zone.
It is just so much easier to deal with. So much of the game is centred around creatures.
A lot of decks use Grave Pacts to deal with opponents. Are you telling me Martyr's Bond is as versatile?
I get that there are more ways to deal with planeswalkers now. And I get that people will probably take out their Austere Commands and throw in Merciless Evictions. And I get that haste will become stronger. I just think it is so much easier to build a deck around protecting a planeswalker than it is to build a deck around protecting a creature.
And I am serious that if they brought back BaaC list that I would have no problem with making PWs commanders.
But Sheldon brought up that if they became legal many would have to be banned. And I don't like having a bunch of cards I really like banned so that people can play Jace Beleren as a commander.
I'll bite the bullet. I will try to be open-minded about what other people would consider fun to build around. Obviously you may still disagree, but this is to help me figure out how I feel about this.
Commanders I think are boring and offer nothing to commander other than flavour (basically, those that I think are not worth changing the rules for): 47
Ajani Goldmane
Ajani, Wise Counselor
Angrath, Captain of Chaos
Angrath, Minotaur Pirate (there are better ways to reanimate pirates)
Angrath, the Flame-Chained (first two abilities are very minor and not unique, last ability is so-so)
Chandra Ablaze
Chandra Nalaar
Chandra, Bold Pyromancer
Chandra, Pyrogenius
Chandra, Pyromaster
Domri, City Smasher
Elspeth, Knight-Errant (good card, but really generic for commander)
Gideon Jura
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Gideon, Martial Paragon
Gideon the oathsworn
Huatli, Dinosaur Knight
Huatli, Warrior Poet
Jace Beleren
Jace, Arcane Strategist
Jace, Ingenious Mind-Mage
Jace, Memory Adept
Jace, the Living Guildpact
Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Kiora, Master of the Depths
Liliana, Death Wielder
Liliana, the Necromancer
Mu Yanling
Nicol Bolas, The Deceiver
Nissa Revane
Nissa, Genesis Mage
Nissa, Nature's Artisan
Ob Nixilis, Reignited
Ral, Caller of STorms
Samut, Tyrant Smasher
Sarkhan Vol
Sarkhan, Dragonsoul
Teferi, Timebender
Tezzeret the Schemer
Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist
The Wanderer
Tibalt, the fiend-blooded
Vivien of the Arkbow
Vraska, Regal Gorgon
Vraska, Scheming Gorgon
Commanders I think are interesting to build around: 84
Ajani Unyielding
Ajani Steadfast (though the emblem is often gamewinning, there are a lot of ways around it)
Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants
Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Ajani, the Greathearted
Arlinn Kord
Arlinn, Voice of the Pack (for tribal I guess)
Ashiok, Dream Render
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Chandra, Fire Artisan
Chandra, the Firebrand
Chadra, Torch of Defiance
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Domri Rade
Domri, Anarch of Bolas
Domri, Chaos Bringer
Dovin, Architect of law
Dovin, Grand Arbiter
Dovin, Hand of Control (though I hate that this is uncommon in this set, I think it will ruin limited games)
Garruk Relentless
Garruk Wildspeaker
Garruk, Apex Predator
Garruk, Caller of beasts
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Gideon Blackblade
Huatli, Radiant Champion
Huatli, the Sun's Heart
Jace, Cunning Castaway
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Jaya Ballard
Jaya, Venerated FireMage
Jiang Yanggu, Wildcrafter
Karn, Scion of Urza
Kaya, Bane of the dead
Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Kiora, Behemoth Reckoner
Koth of the Hammer - I think - I think the emblem is problematic, but maybe I am wrong
Liliana of the Veil
Liliana Vess
Liliana, Death's Majesty
Liliana, Dreadhorde General
Liliana, the Last Hope
Liliana, Untouched by death
Nahiri, Storm of Stone
Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Nissa, Vital Force
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Nissa, Who Shakes the World (assuming this is more Vorinclex and less Rofellos)
Nissa, Worldwaker
Ob-Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted
Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Ral, Storm Conduit
Saheeli Rai
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
Samut, the Tested
Sarkhan the Mad
Sarkhan the Masterless
Sarkhan Unbroken
Sarkhan, Fireblood
Sarkhan, Dragonspeaker
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
Tamiyo, Collector of Tales
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Teferi, Time raveler
Teyo, the Shieldmage
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Tezzeret, Artifice Master
Tibalt, Rakish Instigator
Ugin, the Ineffable
Vivien Reid
Vivien, Champion of the Wilds
Vraska the Unseen
Vraska, Golgari Queen
Vraska, Swarm's Embrace
Xenagos, the Reveler
Commanders that concern me (for various reasons) and that I think could end up being banned: 27
Ajani Vengeant (offers nothing except an unbalanced Armageddon in the command zone)
Ajani, Valiant Protector (second ability is very concerning for Commander since you can tutor a specific creature)
Chandra, Flamecaller (repeatable wrath from the command zone)
Dack Fayden (-2 is really tough on non-green decks - there was a Commander Vs with him and it was so busted)
Dovin Baan (ult is super unfun ends the game, other abilities just lend themselves to stalling out the game until he ults)
Elspeth Tirel (super easy to ult and to use repeatedly to wrath from the command zone)
Elspeth, Sun's Champion (repeatable wraths and easy to deploy synergistic win condition all in one package)
Gideon of the Trials (obvious)
Gideon, Champion of Justice (so obvious, only exists to rush game ending ult)
Jace, Architect of Thought (first two abilities are generic, ult wins the game)
Jace, Unraveler of secrets (first two abilities are generic, ult wins the game)
Jiang Yanggu (basically, when this hits, you need a boardwipe or a way to hit him... because the game ends after that... annoying to have that 2 turn clock in the command zone)
Karn Liberated (restarting 4 player games is a huge time sink)
Liliana of the Dark Realms (generic abilities... except for ult which wins the game)
Nahiri, the Harbinger (the -2 is very strong, but most people will be racing to put Blightsteel or another game ending card into play)
Narset Transcendent (I played this card in Standard and ultimated it a lot... this is easy to protect and to win with)
Narset, Parter of Veils (Leovold # 2)
Ral Zarek (boring abilities, crazy ultimate that is disproportionately powerful in multiplayer)
Sorin Markov (common banlist discussion card, would need to be banned)
Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Tezzeret the Seeker
Tezzeret, Master of Metal (+1 that tutors could be a problem - you could just put Bolas' Citatel, Sensei's Divining Top and Aetherflux Reservoir for example)
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge (bahroken)
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Venser, the Sojourner
Vraska, Relic Seeker (I think too good at winning the game)
Okay, so clearly, I would say that there are a lot of PWs to build around because they do something unique and interesting.
But I am not thrilled with 27 planeswalkers that I believe would need to be part of banlist discussions because I feel their decks would all be built to focus on the ultimate (or because of other abilities undesirable in the command zone).
I only went through this once, so I am sure there are cards that could be switched categories for reasons I did not consider... but I think that it makes a good illustration of my concerns.
By the way, there are plenty of Legendary creatures I would also say are problematic as commanders, which is again why I want BaaC back. Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Arcum Dagsson and Derevi are 3 that come to mind. They are never fun.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I'll try:
Ajani Vengeant --> ultimate sounds strong, but targets only one player and is not game winning. Annoying, yes, but you need 5 turns to activate it to make one enemy's life miserable. Not banable.
Ajani, Valiant Protector --> you can tutor a specific creature if you have very few creatures in deck. Which is not a good strategy how to protect him, when you play almost creatureless deck. I don't doubt it could be somehow abused, but how is it different from Polymorph or Proteus Staff decks? Not banable.
Chandra, Flamecaller --> 4 damage to each creature costing 6/8/10 mana. Wouldn't call it a wrath. I think the first 2 abilities are more interesting. Would it be a bit annoying and anti-aggro? Probably yes. Broken and banable? Barely.
Dack Fayden --> why is stealing artefact a problem? Yes, he get's your Sol Ring. Or some signet. Not strong. The ultimate is the thing I would watch out for. Banable? Not outright, but definitely would be watching this PW.
Dovin Baan --> so a Static Orb but needs 4 rounds to get going. Game winning? Could be, definitely annoying, but so is any stax deck. Would keep it on radar.
Elspeth Tirel --> not sure how to evaluate this one. I don't find that wrath that problematic... Annoying? Yes. But does not reset games and doesn't destroy lands or tokens. In my group this wouldn't be a problematic general, but I can imagine why some people wouldn't like to play against it.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion - technically a wrath, but it let's you keep all creatures with power 3 and less. So it kind of repeatable Retribution of the Meek. Again, just like Elspeth above, but the wrath is even weaker. Ultimate is nice, but still not game winning in itself.
Gideon of the Trials - not so obvious actually. Yes, you can't lose while he is in play. And? you can still get -15 life and once someone blinks him, return's him to your hand, removes him or so, you immediately lost. Maybe I am missing something but I don't find this banable at all.
Gideon, Champion of Justice - with token strategy, his ulti is game-winning. This would be BaaC.
Jace, Architect of Thought - how does the ultimate wins the game? You will find 3 cards from 3 different decks and play them withou paying their mana costs. Could potentially lead to some combo, but the ultimate itself is not game winning and highly depends on what your opponents play. You use their cards against them. Totally not banable.
Jace, Unraveler of secrets - Yes, the ultimate is strong. But again, not game-winning by itself. Annoying, yes. Not totally the same, but palyed against Kira, Great Glass-Spinner and it was not that horrible as it looked like. Yes his emblem is stronger and Erayo is banned, so I would keep him in radar as well. But wouldn't ban him right away.
Jiang Yanggu --> what? He hit's the field and gives ONE creature +X/+X based on number of your lands and trample. How does the game ends when he hits the field? What two turns? I think you misread his ultimate. Because outside of ONE bug trample creature, which maybe won't even kill one player, hes not even a threat at all. Totally not banable.
Karn Liberated --> restart the game would be the problematic part. But he's in colorless, needs 3 turns to do that, exiles 2 cards in the process which if they are permanents, the player keeps. So you reset yourself and everyone else to 0 lands, full hand, full life and hoping they exiled some permanents from their hands. But I understand why it would be annoying to get regular game restarts. So BaaC.
Liliana of the Dark Realms --> had her as a general for several months as the head of my monoblack. Ultimate is not game winning by itself, but you need cardss like Exsanguinate or others. I think Sidisi, Undead Vizier is numerous times worse than this Lili. Not banable.
Nahiri, the Harbinger --> yes the -2 is strong, but hits only tapped creature, tapped artifact or enchantment. Combo with Blightsteel Colossus sounds good, but then you realise anything with toughness 2 means you won't kill that player and also you need to return the creature back to your hand. How is Nahiri stronger than.. lets say Ilharg, the Raze-Boar who can do the same, but better? Yes she tutors, but is onetime attack. He doesn't but can do it every turn. Not banable.
Narset Transcendent --> can imagine this in standard. But this is not standard. I think the -2 would be more used than the ultimate. Also, most creature-ehavy decks like Edgar Markov or Ruric Thar, the Unbowed would laugh at her ultimate and just kill her. But I would keep her on radar.
Narset, Parter of Veils --> we can agree on this, Leovold 2.0. So BaaC
Ral Zarek --> I don't understand why is his ultimate 'disproportionally powerful' in multiplayer. Yes, he can have 5 or 0 extra turns. Unless he kills the whole board in those turns or comboes out somehow, the ultimate is not game winning by itself. Mizzix, the Izmagus can combo out faster or give himself infinite turns as well. But would keep it on radar, just so people can test it and we could decide later. I don't find him broken.
Sorin Markov --> setting life to 10 is not game winning, controlling player's turn also not. Magister Sphinx cost only 1 more and does it as well. Not from command zone, but does and I never saw it even discussed regarding the banlist. I think that Sorin would make archenemy games, not win them outright. But for the peace, let's put him BaaC.
Tamiyo, Field Researcher --> again, Omniscience is not game winning by itself and unless you draw half of your library, the game is far from over. Keep it on radar.
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria --> we can agree on this one, BaaC.
Tezzeret the Seeker --> Ultimate is not gamewinning by itself and I would say he is slower Arcum Dagsson, who is not banned. So not banned.
Tezzeret, Master of Metal --> those cards could, but you could only put 3 artefacts in your deck to get it 'consistently'. 6 CMC PW, taking 3 turns to find a 3 card combo. Well, now that is totally not banable.
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge --> ok, he looks storng. Would like to test him, but probably right BaaC.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon --> had him as a general for several games, turned back to Kozilek, The great distortion. Ugin looks broken, but he is in colorless, doesn't fill you the hand after you dump all your hand full of artefacts into play so you can cast him. Exile is strong, but ultimate is far from game winning. I find card draw with counterspells better than occasional colored exile. Tested it myself so from my view not banable.
Venser, the Sojourner --> probably BaaC, just like Teferi above.
Vraska, Relic Seeker --> Similar to Sorin, would like to test her first, but for the peace, let's put her into BaaC.
So out of your 27 generals:
Not banable - 14
On Radar - 5
BaaC - 8
But this would require to bring back Banned as a Commander.
Where things like Leovold, Braids, Erayo, Griselbrand or Rofellos could go as well.
Thanks for the discussion. Even if it was 8 bans (which I think is short, but that's opinion), I think the RC would have to weigh the pros and cons heavily. The pros include how many PWs actually make for new interesting decks. And it is not like 8 new decks compensate for 8 bans... we can play all these cards right now.
I agree that philosophically, PWs should be allowed as commanders. I also think that BaaC list is the only way to do this without causing a lot of EDH players a lot of grief.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Can you take a step back and realize what you just said there?
Can you take a good hard look at what you just said there please?
Edit: I looked through the list of cards you think are problematic and most of those things are substantially worse than the average casual play I see. Commander is a powerful format. It takes a LOT for a card to be problematic.
IT is not a question of power.
IT is a question of how Liliana warps the game.
I play her in the 99. You tick her up a few times, nobody cares. But then they work together to kill her before the emblem.
Now, in a deck that is centered around making her ult - you won't get a chance to attack her. So then it becomes - Do you have spot removal?
And how many spot removal spells will you have, because she is in the command zone.
I think she is a very poor general because her first 2 abilities are not 'build around' abilities and the last ability is completely broken... so all you can do with her is try to do something broken.
I think this lines up very poorly with the commander format.
I am willing to acknowledge that all of my lists are my best guess. I think Liliana would have to be monitored for the same reason as Dovin Baan, who is a terrible walker. The only worthwhile thing to do with them is emblem... so all the decks you can build around them will be built to stall until there is an emblem.
It's not fun! The games become a constant rush to stop Liliana from hitting her ult. Now, maybe Liliana is slow enough that it doesn't matter... but I think it needs to be considered.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
If the player is capable of maintaining complete board control against 3 opponents, I think they deserve a payoff. Even a llanowar elf can lock liliana out from ulting until it's removed. A lightning bolt means that ulting liliana will take so many turns as to not be a problem, by the time it's ticked up that high players will be hard casting eldrazi.
And if she dies once, suddenly you need multiple turns with your 6 mana planewalker, or 8 mana planeswalker.
If you want to talk about problematic cards that create unfun situations because they tick up to game enders, how about we talk about the *currently legal* ones like purphoros, god of the forge, which is legitimately almost impossible to remove and will end the game with ETB effects regardless of removal in about as many turns as it takes liliana to build up to her ult.
Commander can handle purphoros, but you think it can't handle walker ultimates?
Edit: Not true if Purphoros isn't a creature but point still stands as lack of removal is to be considered.
This is a very misleading way of putting it.
You cannot attack purphoros.
He's an indestructible enchantment. The amount of cards the average deck runs to answer an indestructible enchantment is probably between 1 and 2.
It doesn't matter if the cards exist, are people running them? Are they playable when purphoros isn't at the table?
Because almost every deck out there runs a myriad of ways to interact with a planeswalker. Any creatures, bounce, burn, planeswalker removal and/or permanent removal will all make it much harder to execute a planeswalker plan.
And yet there was no discussion about purphoros being legal when it was printed. It was just brought in no problem.
I don't think that is the point of the discussion...
Leovold is Legendary creature as well and he is banned.
He’s the one pointing out how one cycle of legendary creatures that are hard to remove didnt raise any eyebrows (which is wrong, people knew how powerful indestructible commanders in the zone were) but peope are doing it for a whole subset of cards that would become legal commanders over night
Also, Leovold too was brought in no problem, he was just later banned, dunno what your point was meant to be.
Not sure how this is still a topic after about four posts this month alone from the RC stating they aren’t even considering this.