As someone who had multiple players playing Leovold in our Meta, we never had a problem with it... But you and I both know that that isn't a fair summary of the format at large.
I agree that Ashiok is oppressive, and a solid case study why one might not want Planeswalkers as commanders - but if you are predicating your argument on the best example of how wrong it can go, then you are being a bit hypocritical when you dismiss the frustrations an average table might feel towards other highly frustrating commanders that are still legal in the format.
None taken. And no, I wasn''t being disingenuous, though I get what you're saying.
Leovold was about strong in terms of providing advantage to you and disadvantage to your opponents without having to leverage his abilities in other ways as I've seen since...maybe Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary? I get it though, the people who busted him wide open were the ones who were responsible for the grossness they enabled in his name. That being said, he's certainly further up the spectrum than the other commanders mentioned by Carthage - Narset withstanding, she just takes whatever else your doing and makes it quicker and more bulletproof.
In terms of legality, I don't think any of them are as oppressive as Ashiok has the potential to be. They're all strong, but they're not oppressive and anti-fun like this would be.
I mostly agree with Buffsam that these are opressive mostly because of their builds, cards like Ashiok can singlehandedly stop multiple types of decks. Even if it just hoses one kind of deck , (for which we also have creatures that do so Like Anafenza, the foremost), it can get out of hand fast since planeswalkers are generally harder to get rid of than creatures.
Personally I would rather play against an artifact version of Linvala, Keeper of Silence than Karn, the Great Creator. Both would be oppresive against Artifact decks on their own but one of those has easier and more plentyful answers.
The problem for me with planeswalkers is the difficulty to remove them repeatedly. While it's true that out of the 163 Planeswalkers (we can't use as commanders) there are only a handful of really problematic ones (Problematic on their own), and some that can get problematic builds, most of them would do only little harm. But then again most of those that do little harm wouldn't see that much play either. So IMO allowing PWs does more harm then good.(Universally speaking, but with the right Group you can houserule)
We're still pretty firm on our stance about PWs as Commanders and from this poll it looks like we have solid support. For the folks who voted yes, I'm curious. What problem do you see getting solved by making all PWs commanders? Is there a need not getting addressed (other than "We'd like PWs to be commanders")?
For the long term health of the format, making changes needs to have purpose; the bigger the change, the greater the purpose.
The problem of the game being stale.
The problem of not being able to use my iconic characters as generals because they are planeswalkers instead of creatures, despite being substantially weaker than all the existing strong generals.
Maybe for that user, but certainly not for me or my playgroup.
I am very happy with the banned list as it stands, and I certainly do not want to see Planeswalkers as commanders.
As someone who had multiple players playing Leovold in our Meta, we never had a problem with it... But you and I both know that that isn't a fair summary of the format at large.
I agree that Ashiok is oppressive, and a solid case study why one might not want Planeswalkers as commanders - but if you are predicating your argument on the best example of how wrong it can go, then you are being a bit hypocritical when you dismiss the frustrations an average table might feel towards other highly frustrating commanders that are still legal in the format.
None taken. And no, I wasn''t being disingenuous, though I get what you're saying.
Leovold was about strong in terms of providing advantage to you and disadvantage to your opponents without having to leverage his abilities in other ways as I've seen since...maybe Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary? I get it though, the people who busted him wide open were the ones who were responsible for the grossness they enabled in his name. That being said, he's certainly further up the spectrum than the other commanders mentioned by Carthage - Narset withstanding, she just takes whatever else your doing and makes it quicker and more bulletproof.
In terms of legality, I don't think any of them are as oppressive as Ashiok has the potential to be. They're all strong, but they're not oppressive and anti-fun like this would be.
I mean, you only get away with Leovold trying to strong-arm the table so many times before enough people recognize how unfun you are making Commander events and just gun for you. This is true for every banned Commander, and I think that is the great problem solver - more so than an actual banned list. Sure, Leovold can still work into games easily enough because of the low barrier to locking everyone else out, but the greatest regulator for fun play is the group itself. But that is really here nor there.
If you want to argue that Planeswalkers can create unfair games, you should cite more than just the absolute pinnacle of the argument. I would not be pleased to see an Ashiok as a commander on the otherside of the table, if only that at 3CMC you cannot really lock them out of just repeatedly jamming Ashiok until they stick. I think that is the biggest issue for me, not so much that they are harder to deal with. You can still combo around them (generally) or just gun them down with the other players. I think people often forget how valuable table talk can be when it comes to balancing game play at a table.
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If anything I see Ashiok as a nice check against decks that are often maligned in talk about the format.
Hosing ramp of a kind not normally disrupted, also disrupting decks accustomed to tutoring or cheating things with their graveyard. The degree to which Ashiok hoses things scales rather nicely with the power of the deck playing against their strategy.
Then you also have to consider the general opinion about any form of disruption / prison strategies at all.
What interesting decks that hatebear design in Dimir could produce.
There's a few to start off with, there are many more.
Only on of those cards has a built in feature to actively take part of the game away from your opponents. Any time a card does that it should immediately be a red flag. So right off the bat I am wary of the card. Then I look at the very first deck idea that pops in my head to exploit it, and I know from other wheels decks that getting wheeled faster than I can use the cards is not fun (one more strike against it). Lastly, I look at how easily I can reuse the card. 8n this case, a planeswalker has a repeatable ability, and a low cmc that lets me recast it when needed.
And that's where I left it. I can separate "I don't want to see in the Command Zone" from "should be banned". There are a number of already legal commanders I don't like to see in the Command zone, but you don't see me clamoring to have them banned. However, this is a unique opportunity because we are discussing unbanning an entire category of cards, and doing that requires us to look at each individual and determine if their risk makes it worth adding the whole. This is where I'm at because I see a whole lot of individual risk (since the ones I would actually want banned are rather few).
If anything I see Ashiok as a nice check against decks that are often maligned in talk about the format.
Hosing ramp of a kind not normally disrupted, also disrupting decks accustomed to tutoring or cheating things with their graveyard. The degree to which Ashiok hoses things scales rather nicely with the power of the deck playing against their strategy.
Then you also have to consider the general opinion about any form of disruption / prison strategies at all.
What interesting decks that hatebear design in Dimir could produce.
I don't think the discussion is about if the card should be banned in Commander, but if it should be legal as a commander. I think in the 99, Ashiok is fine. It is when it is able to enter the Command Zone when it becomes an issue.
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I'd dismiss most of the commanders that Carthage suggested as being comparable to Ashiok, but he has a point with derevi and narset.
Oloro gets hated for being lame, not for being oppressive. You know what your going to face when you see him, and you know that you have to pressure him to prevent him from establishing his fort, aetherflux, and combos, but you also know you are generally going to get whined at for doing the only thing you can to stop him. In an established playgroup he won't get hated on if the pilot isn't whiney and accepts that he's going to be targeted, and oloro isn't going to be hated if you announce your running tribal Giants or some other nonsense.
Nekusar is strong, but a glass cannon combo. I have more success with my untuned nekusar deck that eschews wheels and discard effects in favor of more answers and good stuff as well as kikimite combo than I did when it was a tuned list. That's because people know exactly what nekusar is trying to do and exactly how to stop it, so having a less all in plan gives you back up lines or play and takes pressure off of you (and is more fun for everyone). Nekusar doesn't shut anything down, he just provides a risky path to victory.
Now Narset has some less obnoxious builds, but her most fair state is still uninteractive Voltron. She doesn't shut anything down like Ashiok though, but her extra turns nonsense is not fun to ay against. Derevi is just entirely unfun unless you are trying out bird tribal. You have to intentionally handicap yourself with her to make her fun.
Still, none of these just shut down multiple common strategies on their own.
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I haven't really put on my thinking cap and digested the spoilers so far, but there is a large number of planeswalkers so far that between their static abilities and/or activated abilities I really don't want to see in the Command zone. I don't know how many of them I would actually advocate to ban, but much like the existing list we made, plenty of them would not make for a fun game, imo. Ashiok, for example would be a pretty miserable game of wheel/discard followed by exiling graveyards ad nauseam.
So, would the static abilities work from CZ? If not, I don't really see an issue. The new Ashiok is super fine in limiting all the graveyard shenanigans. And those are many...I think groups would just adjust to the change and go from there.
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As someone who had multiple players playing Leovold in our Meta, we never had a problem with it... But you and I both know that that isn't a fair summary of the format at large.
I agree that Ashiok is oppressive, and a solid case study why one might not want Planeswalkers as commanders - but if you are predicating your argument on the best example of how wrong it can go, then you are being a bit hypocritical when you dismiss the frustrations an average table might feel towards other highly frustrating commanders that are still legal in the format.
None taken. And no, I wasn''t being disingenuous, though I get what you're saying.
Leovold was about strong in terms of providing advantage to you and disadvantage to your opponents without having to leverage his abilities in other ways as I've seen since...maybe Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary? I get it though, the people who busted him wide open were the ones who were responsible for the grossness they enabled in his name. That being said, he's certainly further up the spectrum than the other commanders mentioned by Carthage - Narset withstanding, she just takes whatever else your doing and makes it quicker and more bulletproof.
In terms of legality, I don't think any of them are as oppressive as Ashiok has the potential to be. They're all strong, but they're not oppressive and anti-fun like this would be.
I mean, you only get away with Leovold trying to strong-arm the table so many times before enough people recognize how unfun you are making Commander events and just gun for you. This is true for every banned Commander, and I think that is the great problem solver - more so than an actual banned list. Sure, Leovold can still work into games easily enough because of the low barrier to locking everyone else out, but the greatest regulator for fun play is the group itself. But that is really here nor there.
100% agree with your comments regarding table talk, house ruling and meta discussion - this is a social game, and it's only fun when everyone has fun - to some degree at any rate. And yes, playing a ubiquitous commander like Leovold will only get you so far - eventually you become the archenemy. I don't get this with Oloro (in a vacuum, at least) - he's ok, but I generally think it's poor threat assessment to gun for him straight away. Build dependent of course, but most are manageable.
If you want to argue that Planeswalkers can create unfair games, you should cite more than just the absolute pinnacle of the argument. I would not be pleased to see an Ashiok as a commander on the otherside of the table, if only that at 3CMC you cannot really lock them out of just repeatedly jamming Ashiok until they stick. I think that is the biggest issue for me, not so much that they are harder to deal with. You can still combo around them (generally) or just gun them down with the other players. I think people often forget how valuable table talk can be when it comes to balancing game play at a table.
I think there's games that will be unfair with walkers in the zone, but those can exist now - Daretti and precon Teferi can take care of that in terms of being competitive, but I think the bigger problem for me is creating games that aren't fun more than anything. There's a few that aren't legal that would be busted (mostly Tezzeret 1.0), and landing an emblem (or more than one of the same) just closes the door to victory in most cases, but I can't imagine most others being an enjoyable game either way. They'd either be oppressive, or underwhelming and so would not see play. For myself, I consider games a win when everyone has a great time. It's nice to actually win, but fun is more important. That won't always happen, granted. But walkers in the zone seems like fun for the player playing them, but only at the expense of everyone else at the table, and that's just not my jam.
So, would the static abilities work from CZ? If not, I don't really see an issue. The new Ashiok is super fine in limiting all the graveyard shenanigans. And those are many...I think groups would just adjust to the change and go from there.
Sure? You can say the same thing about every card on the ban list though, so I'm not sure what point you're making.
Stasis only works when it's on the battlefield and I can adapt to it. That doesn't mean I would be fine with it in the Command zone.
I haven't really put on my thinking cap and digested the spoilers so far, but there is a large number of planeswalkers so far that between their static abilities and/or activated abilities I really don't want to see in the Command zone. I don't know how many of them I would actually advocate to ban, but much like the existing list we made, plenty of them would not make for a fun game, imo. Ashiok, for example would be a pretty miserable game of wheel/discard followed by exiling graveyards ad nauseam.
So, would the static abilities work from CZ? If not, I don't really see an issue. The new Ashiok is super fine in limiting all the graveyard shenanigans. And those are many...I think groups would just adjust to the change and go from there.
Please, elaborate. I’m all ears.
To me, this reads “Ashiok would require you to play a different strategy/deck.” That is about the most unhealthy characteristic a card that exists in the CZ could have. Seriously. Nobody is tutoring, and I’m going to exile your Graveyard every turn. Whooot, sounds like a freaking blast! Then, after all of that, let’s plop down Maralen of the Mornsong to really have yourselves a party.
The walkers are interesting, and this set certainly boosts their playability on the 99. Too much for the CZ tho.
Hoses ramp and gy strats? Sign me up. Especially ramp is just pure cancer. Any ramp hate card just actively makes this format better.
It hoses a lot more than ramp. It hoses color-fixing, too, making it harder for your opponents to even have the right colors to play. And it is not symmetrical, allowing you to ramp to your heart's content or completely abuse cards like Maralen (as Buffsam89 pointed out) to lock everybody else out of the game. As a 3cmc card in the command zone, this would be stupidly unfun to play against; it's not interactive and in fact, encourages non-interactive, anti-social deckbuilding in a format. It may be fine for some playgroups, but it would be really bad for a lot of others, and it could actively discourage some people from playing.
In the 99, it's a fine tool, though. Get it out, someone kills it, and the game goes on.
Hoses ramp and gy strats? Sign me up. Especially ramp is just pure cancer. Any ramp hate card just actively makes this format better.
It hoses a lot more than ramp. It hoses color-fixing, too, making it harder for your opponents to even have the right colors to play. And it is not symmetrical, allowing you to ramp to your heart's content or completely abuse cards like Maralen (as Buffsam89 pointed out) to lock everybody else out of the game. As a 3cmc card in the command zone, this would be stupidly unfun to play against; it's not interactive and in fact, encourages non-interactive, anti-social deckbuilding in a format. It may be fine for some playgroups, but it would be really bad for a lot of others, and it could actively discourage some people from playing.
In the 99, it's a fine tool, though. Get it out, someone kills it, and the game goes on.
It is explicitly interactive.
Non-interactive means it wins without caring what the opponent does
For example...say...tutoring up a 2 card combo and ending the game.
Non-interactive means it wins without caring what the opponent does
For example...say...tutoring up a 2 card combo and ending the game.
It makes the game non-interactive. When you sit there unable to play cards, unable to play your deck, you can't interact. There's no give and take - only take.
Non-interactive means it wins without caring what the opponent does
For example...say...tutoring up a 2 card combo and ending the game.
It makes the game non-interactive. When you sit there unable to play cards, unable to play your deck, you can't interact. There's no give and take - only take.
Agreed - this is the most accurate assessment of this card. While fine in the 99, completely gross in the command zone.
She would be far better as a commander. Ramp is just way too consistent and the hate for it is way too inconsistent. Too many decks are just ramp into goodstuff. To a point where other archetypes are nonexistent. If you look at format staples from other formats you see that there are at best 1 ramp card in the 10 ten while in edh you have 6. Most played card in edh is a ramp card.
She would be far better as a commander. Ramp is just way too consistent and the hate for it is way too inconsistent. Too many decks are just ramp into goodstuff. To a point where other archetypes are nonexistent. If you look at format staples from other formats you see that there are at best 1 ramp card in the 10 ten while in edh you have 6. Most played card in edh is a ramp card.
This isn't really pertinent to the discussion one way or another to be fair - I disagree for the most part, but that's neither here nor there. In terms of prevalence in the format, you're comparing a singleton 100 card format to 60 card with multiples and far greater consistency in mana and colour generation. Apples and oranges. This in itself doesn't make it a problem, although it can get a bit much with Azusa, Lost but Seeking and so forth. Either way, this point notwithstanding, that doesn't make Ashiok a suitable candidate for commander status. Too much ramp is bad, but shutting off fundamental game play altogether is oppressive and not fun. If I want to watch someone else play while I sit there, I won't even bother shuffling up at all.
Fun fact: Ashiok, as far as lore has dictated thus far, is genderless.
I would stop thinking in terms of "these cards would be broken" and start thinking in terms of "these cards would make for fun and interesting decks to face." Right now, there isn't enough reason to make the change to worry about why we shouldn't make the change. The positives are almost entirely centered around "these are cool characters from lore" rather than "these are cool cards to build around". That's a plus, but it's not enough to justify a major gameplay change, even before you get to the downsides.
On the bright side, WAR suggests that maybe they'll be looser about planeswalker designs in the future. Maybe there'll be fun, quirky ones to build around. But right now, when I hear "I want to build a Kiora deck!" it's solely driven by Kiora's backstory, not because the Kiora cards are interesting.
I would stop thinking in terms of "these cards would be broken" and start thinking in terms of "these cards would make for fun and interesting decks to face." Right now, there isn't enough reason to make the change to worry about why we shouldn't make the change. The positives are almost entirely centered around "these are cool characters from lore" rather than "these are cool cards to build around". That's a plus, but it's not enough to justify a major gameplay change, even before you get to the downsides.
On the bright side, WAR suggests that maybe they'll be looser about planeswalker designs in the future. Maybe there'll be fun, quirky ones to build around. But right now, when I hear "I want to build a Kiora deck!" it's solely driven by Kiora's backstory, not because the Kiora cards are interesting.
I can agree with this. Regardless of any broken-ness, I can't see global commander-walkers being any more fun that the game already is, and I can see it being considerably less fun. That's a totally subjective assessment that'll vary from person to person, of course.
But right now, when I hear "I want to build a Kiora deck!" it's solely driven by Kiora's backstory, not because the Kiora cards are interesting.
Does that really matter though? I mean, not to be argumentative, but who are we to say whether or not a card should be legal on the basis of how interesting it is? There are already droves of legal commanders that I think are boring as dirt. Ultimately, isn't demand a better metric to follow here? If, hypothetically, tons and tons of players wanted to play Kiora decks, shouldn't those players be allowed to do that regardless of how boring their creations might be? After all, those same players are already free to build as many other boring decks as they like for every other existing commander. I don't see why how interesting a card is should be a factor here.
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Non-interactive means it wins without caring what the opponent does
For example...say...tutoring up a 2 card combo and ending the game.
It makes the game non-interactive. When you sit there unable to play cards, unable to play your deck, you can't interact. There's no give and take - only take.
If your deck is so narrow in it's focus that a single hate card shuts it down, it is probably teetering on the non-interactive itself.
If your deck is so narrow in it's focus that a single hate card shuts it down, it is probably teetering on the non-interactive itself.
Academically, there's a point there. But there's a difference between someone running Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and a Razaketh, the Foulblooded shell, and someone who just wants to pop Evolving Wilds to colour fix. The former is shutting down a likely lethal combo deck, the latter is stopping a generally innocent interaction and stopping a deck from being able to interact with the game whatsoever.
None taken. And no, I wasn''t being disingenuous, though I get what you're saying.
Leovold was about strong in terms of providing advantage to you and disadvantage to your opponents without having to leverage his abilities in other ways as I've seen since...maybe Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary? I get it though, the people who busted him wide open were the ones who were responsible for the grossness they enabled in his name. That being said, he's certainly further up the spectrum than the other commanders mentioned by Carthage - Narset withstanding, she just takes whatever else your doing and makes it quicker and more bulletproof.
In terms of legality, I don't think any of them are as oppressive as Ashiok has the potential to be. They're all strong, but they're not oppressive and anti-fun like this would be.
Personally I would rather play against an artifact version of Linvala, Keeper of Silence than Karn, the Great Creator. Both would be oppresive against Artifact decks on their own but one of those has easier and more plentyful answers.
The problem for me with planeswalkers is the difficulty to remove them repeatedly. While it's true that out of the 163 Planeswalkers (we can't use as commanders) there are only a handful of really problematic ones (Problematic on their own), and some that can get problematic builds, most of them would do only little harm. But then again most of those that do little harm wouldn't see that much play either. So IMO allowing PWs does more harm then good.(Universally speaking, but with the right Group you can houserule)
Maybe for that user, but certainly not for me or my playgroup.
I am very happy with the banned list as it stands, and I certainly do not want to see Planeswalkers as commanders.
I mean, you only get away with Leovold trying to strong-arm the table so many times before enough people recognize how unfun you are making Commander events and just gun for you. This is true for every banned Commander, and I think that is the great problem solver - more so than an actual banned list. Sure, Leovold can still work into games easily enough because of the low barrier to locking everyone else out, but the greatest regulator for fun play is the group itself. But that is really here nor there.
If you want to argue that Planeswalkers can create unfair games, you should cite more than just the absolute pinnacle of the argument. I would not be pleased to see an Ashiok as a commander on the otherside of the table, if only that at 3CMC you cannot really lock them out of just repeatedly jamming Ashiok until they stick. I think that is the biggest issue for me, not so much that they are harder to deal with. You can still combo around them (generally) or just gun them down with the other players. I think people often forget how valuable table talk can be when it comes to balancing game play at a table.
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Hosing ramp of a kind not normally disrupted, also disrupting decks accustomed to tutoring or cheating things with their graveyard. The degree to which Ashiok hoses things scales rather nicely with the power of the deck playing against their strategy.
Then you also have to consider the general opinion about any form of disruption / prison strategies at all.
What interesting decks that hatebear design in Dimir could produce.
Only on of those cards has a built in feature to actively take part of the game away from your opponents. Any time a card does that it should immediately be a red flag. So right off the bat I am wary of the card. Then I look at the very first deck idea that pops in my head to exploit it, and I know from other wheels decks that getting wheeled faster than I can use the cards is not fun (one more strike against it). Lastly, I look at how easily I can reuse the card. 8n this case, a planeswalker has a repeatable ability, and a low cmc that lets me recast it when needed.
And that's where I left it. I can separate "I don't want to see in the Command Zone" from "should be banned". There are a number of already legal commanders I don't like to see in the Command zone, but you don't see me clamoring to have them banned. However, this is a unique opportunity because we are discussing unbanning an entire category of cards, and doing that requires us to look at each individual and determine if their risk makes it worth adding the whole. This is where I'm at because I see a whole lot of individual risk (since the ones I would actually want banned are rather few).
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I don't think the discussion is about if the card should be banned in Commander, but if it should be legal as a commander. I think in the 99, Ashiok is fine. It is when it is able to enter the Command Zone when it becomes an issue.
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Oloro gets hated for being lame, not for being oppressive. You know what your going to face when you see him, and you know that you have to pressure him to prevent him from establishing his fort, aetherflux, and combos, but you also know you are generally going to get whined at for doing the only thing you can to stop him. In an established playgroup he won't get hated on if the pilot isn't whiney and accepts that he's going to be targeted, and oloro isn't going to be hated if you announce your running tribal Giants or some other nonsense.
Nekusar is strong, but a glass cannon combo. I have more success with my untuned nekusar deck that eschews wheels and discard effects in favor of more answers and good stuff as well as kikimite combo than I did when it was a tuned list. That's because people know exactly what nekusar is trying to do and exactly how to stop it, so having a less all in plan gives you back up lines or play and takes pressure off of you (and is more fun for everyone). Nekusar doesn't shut anything down, he just provides a risky path to victory.
Now Narset has some less obnoxious builds, but her most fair state is still uninteractive Voltron. She doesn't shut anything down like Ashiok though, but her extra turns nonsense is not fun to ay against. Derevi is just entirely unfun unless you are trying out bird tribal. You have to intentionally handicap yourself with her to make her fun.
Still, none of these just shut down multiple common strategies on their own.
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So, would the static abilities work from CZ? If not, I don't really see an issue. The new Ashiok is super fine in limiting all the graveyard shenanigans. And those are many...I think groups would just adjust to the change and go from there.
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100% agree with your comments regarding table talk, house ruling and meta discussion - this is a social game, and it's only fun when everyone has fun - to some degree at any rate. And yes, playing a ubiquitous commander like Leovold will only get you so far - eventually you become the archenemy. I don't get this with Oloro (in a vacuum, at least) - he's ok, but I generally think it's poor threat assessment to gun for him straight away. Build dependent of course, but most are manageable.
I think there's games that will be unfair with walkers in the zone, but those can exist now - Daretti and precon Teferi can take care of that in terms of being competitive, but I think the bigger problem for me is creating games that aren't fun more than anything. There's a few that aren't legal that would be busted (mostly Tezzeret 1.0), and landing an emblem (or more than one of the same) just closes the door to victory in most cases, but I can't imagine most others being an enjoyable game either way. They'd either be oppressive, or underwhelming and so would not see play. For myself, I consider games a win when everyone has a great time. It's nice to actually win, but fun is more important. That won't always happen, granted. But walkers in the zone seems like fun for the player playing them, but only at the expense of everyone else at the table, and that's just not my jam.
Sure? You can say the same thing about every card on the ban list though, so I'm not sure what point you're making.
Stasis only works when it's on the battlefield and I can adapt to it. That doesn't mean I would be fine with it in the Command zone.
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Please, elaborate. I’m all ears.
To me, this reads “Ashiok would require you to play a different strategy/deck.” That is about the most unhealthy characteristic a card that exists in the CZ could have. Seriously. Nobody is tutoring, and I’m going to exile your Graveyard every turn. Whooot, sounds like a freaking blast! Then, after all of that, let’s plop down Maralen of the Mornsong to really have yourselves a party.
The walkers are interesting, and this set certainly boosts their playability on the 99. Too much for the CZ tho.
Slots nicely into the 99, don’t it?
In the 99, it's a fine tool, though. Get it out, someone kills it, and the game goes on.
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It is explicitly interactive.
Non-interactive means it wins without caring what the opponent does
For example...say...tutoring up a 2 card combo and ending the game.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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Agreed - this is the most accurate assessment of this card. While fine in the 99, completely gross in the command zone.
This isn't really pertinent to the discussion one way or another to be fair - I disagree for the most part, but that's neither here nor there. In terms of prevalence in the format, you're comparing a singleton 100 card format to 60 card with multiples and far greater consistency in mana and colour generation. Apples and oranges. This in itself doesn't make it a problem, although it can get a bit much with Azusa, Lost but Seeking and so forth. Either way, this point notwithstanding, that doesn't make Ashiok a suitable candidate for commander status. Too much ramp is bad, but shutting off fundamental game play altogether is oppressive and not fun. If I want to watch someone else play while I sit there, I won't even bother shuffling up at all.
Fun fact: Ashiok, as far as lore has dictated thus far, is genderless.
On the bright side, WAR suggests that maybe they'll be looser about planeswalker designs in the future. Maybe there'll be fun, quirky ones to build around. But right now, when I hear "I want to build a Kiora deck!" it's solely driven by Kiora's backstory, not because the Kiora cards are interesting.
I can agree with this. Regardless of any broken-ness, I can't see global commander-walkers being any more fun that the game already is, and I can see it being considerably less fun. That's a totally subjective assessment that'll vary from person to person, of course.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
If your deck is so narrow in it's focus that a single hate card shuts it down, it is probably teetering on the non-interactive itself.
Academically, there's a point there. But there's a difference between someone running Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and a Razaketh, the Foulblooded shell, and someone who just wants to pop Evolving Wilds to colour fix. The former is shutting down a likely lethal combo deck, the latter is stopping a generally innocent interaction and stopping a deck from being able to interact with the game whatsoever.