4: I don't believe any current planeswalkers are particularly egregious aside from maybe tamio with doubling season, but banning a small handful of commanders to make dozens more legal is a no-brainer decision for increasing the card pool.
This begins with the supposition that increasing the card pool is a goal, which I don't think it is. There's no shortage of Commanders.
(Note that this was a valid problem for Brawl, which is why allowing Planeswalkers made sense there. I've actually recommended to the Brawl team that they drop the color identity rules entirely for the same reason. Restrictions on a Standard-sized card pool are problematic. On a Vintage-sized one, necessary.)
I think adding cards to the card pool for any card game is one of the most important goals. It's part of what makes them interesting to play, the fact that they are constantly evolving with new game pieces. If people want to play with the same pieces every time, there are countless games designed around that, chess as one of the most basic examples. For those that invest into magic, I believe they really want that evolving gameplay with the knowledge that new cards will come multiple times a year.
If every effort is made to keep commander the same, it will eventually grow boring. I personally hit that point a year ago where the available options stopped interesting me, others have different breaking points, at some point the format will need to evolve.
Thinking about this subject some more, I think that the only positive reason for this change would be to give players more options in the Command Zone, as well as opening up some new decks (Angrath pirate tribal, Arlin Kord werewolves, for example). However, I think the negative aspects of doing this would be:
- there are a number of planeswalkers that I feel would have to be banned or would otherwise not be healthy(see below)
- there would be a real effect on the secondary market, such as cards like [c]Contagion Engine{/c] and certain planeswalkers
- a majority of the planeswalkers are mediocre and would not see more play than they already do (questioning why there needs to be a change that would not have the promised effect of adding 140 new generals)
- players have no way to interact with emblems, meaning every time a game is played with a scary PW general the game is automatically unbalanced in terms of threat assessment
- WotC does not for the most part build with EDH in mind, meaning that either there is always the possibility of a new planeswalker being printed with some absurd ability, or they would have to nerf design in order to accommodate EDH
Planeswalkers I would keep an eye on or ban:
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - I don't know what kind of deck I would build with this, but I doubt that it would be something my opponents found enjoyable. I don't think anyone has patted me on the back for playing Identity Crisis Dack fayden - There has already been plenty of talk about Dack, and it doesn't seem like he would be a consideration for banning Domri Rade - maybe not ban worthy, but his ultimate would be very threatening, and the low casting cost means he can be recast a number of times Dovin Baan - remember how everyone loved playing against Derevi stax? Elspeth, Knight-Errant - monowhite stax is the first build that popped into my head Garruk, CAller of Beasts - a tutoring general in the Command Zone that creates an emblem cheating the mana system Gideon, Champion of Justice - this should be banned for interacting poorly with the format Jace, the Mind Sculptor - monoblue control shell with an ultimate that takes one player out of the game Jace, Unraveler of Secrets - Erayo is already banned Karn Liberated - Sharazahad is already banned. And put some pants on, dammit! Narset Transcendant - She should probably be banned as well. Her minus ability pairs quite nicely with time magic, and her ultimate stops opponents from playing part of their decks Nichol Bolas, God-Pharoh - another one-sided ultimate that is back-breaking Nissa Revane - Elfball decks are already a thing, and this ultimate just tutors your wincon. Dunno if that makes it ban-worthy, but certainly dangerous Ral Zarek - extra turn card in the Command Zone Saheeli Rai - tutors in the Command Zone are dangerous, and this can grab stuff like Paradox Engine + mana rocks for infinite mana combos, Blightsteel Colossus +Lightning Greaves, etc. Samut, the Tested - Tooth and Nail in the Command Zone Sarkan the Unbroken - large tutor in the Command Zone Sarkan, Dragonsoul - see above, but less powerful since it's monored Sorin Markov - Mindslaver in the Command Zone Tamiyo, Field Researcher - way too strong of an emblem to have in the Command Zone Tamio the Moon Sage - very strong effect for the Command Zone, I could see a lot of storm builds with this Teferi, Hero of Dominaria - very strong emblem that turns a game into resource removal and denial Teferi, Timebender - extra turn card in the Command Zone, in the colors that can most easily blink permanents Tezzeret, the Seeker - tutor in the Command Zone Tezzeret, Artifice Master - tutor in the Command Zone Ugin, Spirit Dragon - very strong ultimate that you have access to the turn after Ugin comes into play, but I don't know if Ugin would replace Kozilek simply because you don't get the instant gratification of refilling your hand Venser, the Sojourner - similar to Teferi, HoD Vivien, Reid - probably not oppressive, but still a strong ultimate to always have potential access to Vraska, the Unseen - seems like a Stax deck in the making Vraska, Golgari Queen - see above, only worse since she draws you cards while ticking her up Vraska, Scheming Gorgon - have I mentioned I'm not fond of "lose the game" effects in the Command Zone?
Thinking about this subject some more, I think that the only positive reason for this change would be to give players more options in the Command Zone, as well as opening up some new decks (Angrath pirate tribal, Arlin Kord werewolves, for example). However, I think the negative aspects of doing this would be:
- there are a number of planeswalkers that I feel would have to be banned or would otherwise not be healthy(see below)
- there would be a real effect on the secondary market, such as cards like [c]Contagion Engine{/c] and certain planeswalkers
- a majority of the planeswalkers are mediocre and would not see more play than they already do (questioning why there needs to be a change that would not have the promised effect of adding 140 new generals)
- players have no way to interact with emblems, meaning every time a game is played with a scary PW general the game is automatically unbalanced in terms of threat assessment
- WotC does not for the most part build with EDH in mind, meaning that either there is always the possibility of a new planeswalker being printed with some absurd ability, or they would have to nerf design in order to accommodate EDH
Planeswalkers I would keep an eye on or ban:
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - I don't know what kind of deck I would build with this, but I doubt that it would be something my opponents found enjoyable. I don't think anyone has patted me on the back for playing Identity Crisis Dack fayden - There has already been plenty of talk about Dack, and it doesn't seem like he would be a consideration for banning Domri Rade - maybe not ban worthy, but his ultimate would be very threatening, and the low casting cost means he can be recast a number of times Dovin Baan - remember how everyone loved playing against Derevi stax? Elspeth, Knight-Errant - monowhite stax is the first build that popped into my head Garruk, CAller of Beasts - a tutoring general in the Command Zone that creates an emblem cheating the mana system Gideon, Champion of Justice - this should be banned for interacting poorly with the format Jace, the Mind Sculptor - monoblue control shell with an ultimate that takes one player out of the game Jace, Unraveler of Secrets - Erayo is already banned Karn Liberated - Sharazahad is already banned. And put some pants on, dammit! Narset Transcendant - She should probably be banned as well. Her minus ability pairs quite nicely with time magic, and her ultimate stops opponents from playing part of their decks Nichol Bolas, God-Pharoh - another one-sided ultimate that is back-breaking Nissa Revane - Elfball decks are already a thing, and this ultimate just tutors your wincon. Dunno if that makes it ban-worthy, but certainly dangerous Ral Zarek - extra turn card in the Command Zone Saheeli Rai - tutors in the Command Zone are dangerous, and this can grab stuff like Paradox Engine + mana rocks for infinite mana combos, Blightsteel Colossus +Lightning Greaves, etc. Samut, the Tested - Tooth and Nail in the Command Zone Sarkan the Unbroken - large tutor in the Command Zone Sarkan, Dragonsoul - see above, but less powerful since it's monored Sorin Markov - Mindslaver in the Command Zone Tamiyo, Field Researcher - way too strong of an emblem to have in the Command Zone Tamio the Moon Sage - very strong effect for the Command Zone, I could see a lot of storm builds with this Teferi, Hero of Dominaria - very strong emblem that turns a game into resource removal and denial Teferi, Timebender - extra turn card in the Command Zone, in the colors that can most easily blink permanents Tezzeret, the Seeker - tutor in the Command Zone Tezzeret, Artifice Master - tutor in the Command Zone Ugin, Spirit Dragon - very strong ultimate that you have access to the turn after Ugin comes into play, but I don't know if Ugin would replace Kozilek simply because you don't get the instant gratification of refilling your hand Venser, the Sojourner - similar to Teferi, HoD Vivien, Reid - probably not oppressive, but still a strong ultimate to always have potential access to Vraska, the Unseen - seems like a Stax deck in the making Vraska, Golgari Queen - see above, only worse since she draws you cards while ticking her up Vraska, Scheming Gorgon - have I mentioned I'm not fond of "lose the game" effects in the Command Zone?
Agree on 99% of this. I wanted to do a similar write up, but I didn’t want to deal with the nit picking that is going to follow “Well, you can do X to counteract Y”. It’s discussions like these that really bring out the mental gymnastics.
Simply put, all PW’s shouldn’t be legal commanders. As for brewing devices? There are literally ~10 PW’s I would consider being “new” in terms of strategy and deckbuilding, and those aren’t even very good to begin with(specifically those with tribal elements). Other than that, they will just be goodstuf.dec but “hey, look, I have a PW in the command zone”.
Pretty good list, Cryogen. I was thinking something pretty similar.
I was also thinking about which existing planeswalkers might be good enough to play as generals without being entirely broken. I couldn't come up with many, really. I think the three WB Sorin cards would probably be okay, even with the repeatable emblem thing, but in each case I don't know that losing out on commander damage wins would be worth the advantages one gains. Chandra, Torch of Defiance might allow for an okay burn deck, I guess, especially if you used things like The Chain Veil and got multiple emblems (which as I type it sounds kinda magic Xmas land). Garruk Wildspeaker and Garruk, Primal Hunter might be good to build around, but I have a hard time viewing them as any more backbreaking than anything G can already easily do. I'm probably missing a few others but the point is, if you take out the ones who would have to be banned, I think the number of planeswalkers people would actually want to play as generals is fairly small - probably smaller than the number that would have to be banned outright (most of Cryo's mentions) - and as a result, the functional number of new generals added to the list would be fairly small. I mean, sure, someone might make an Ajani Goldmane deck, just like they can currently do a Jasmine Boreal deck, but a) how many people would actually do that? and b) why? I certainly don't see what is gained as balancing the loss of several planeswalkers which are currently playable in the format, because with the demise of BaaC, the planeswalkers banned from being a commander would almost certainly end up being banned from the format. Venser in the command zone = actively bad. Venser in the 99 is strong, but fine. Poor Venser is already dead, I'd hate to see him also banished from EDH.
Just out of curiosity, how often have you all actually ultimated a PW in a multiplayer game of EDH? I've been playing EDH for what, almost a decade now I'd guess, and the number of times I can remember ultimating a PW is maybe a couple dozen times. So this idea that PWs with good ultimates (good, mind you, not even game ending ones) would need to be banned is crazy to me. Cryo listed Teferi, Timebender as a problematic card. I literally didn't even know it existed until right now. If you play a 6 mana card, protect it from 3 other players' creatures, and then wait 2 turns, I think you deserve an extra turn. Or you could just play Time Warp. I'm honestly confused how ya'll think so many PWs would suddenly become a problem if they could be generals despite nobody ever complaining about any of these cards in the 99.
I will acknowledge there are a few that could be problematic. My list would probably be less than 5, however, not the 30+ or however many Cryo listed.
Because it's much easier to ultimate a planeswalker that you can cast whenever you want than it is to do it with one you had to draw into within 99 cards.
A ban list and decisions around a format should be structured generally IMO around why something should not be the case.
What we are saying is only that precedent has been set and probably will continue to be set in the future for PW as Commanders. The format has not caught fire and burned down even with a handful of the strongest ones being already legal.
I genuinely believe that as with the other walkers doing this will change drastically little about Commander at all, sure there will probably be a surge of people making decks like what happens when anything new is added to this format.
If a bunch of the walkers hardly ever get played as Commanders congrats welcome to Legendary Creature status.
Some will be good, some will be bad, some will be great. Welcome to Magic the Gathering.
The reason I don't tend to float more positives is very similar to banning discussions in those it very much all magic cards are innocent until proven guilty. Cards have to be proven problematic to a point they should not be in the format, not fight for their inclusion within it. I feel the same way about this (And my answer would be a lot different generally without the precedent set and more importantly continued up to and including last year).
This makes your posts make more sense. You aren't so much arguing the merits of allowing Planeswalker as you are arguing for a change in the structure of the format. Before I get into that, I want to refer you back to the rebuttal that I already made to your point that printing pw commanders has set a precedent, which is that the precedent it set is that its something that can be done on a limited basis specifically for commander because the tiles technology exists to do so, and even then doing so has led to a few obnoxious commanders that we'd be better off without, a load of crap nobody plays, and Windgrace as the lone valuable addition. Basically they've proven to be a bad idea.
Anyway, your argument that things should be allowed unless they prove they shouldn't be has merit when it comes to the banlist. As an argument for allowing pws, it's poor, unless you want to argue that any legendary permanent should be allowed. Or any creature. It's the same level of structural change, and making this argument but limiting it to pws is arbitrary.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Just out of curiosity, how often have you all actually ultimated a PW in a multiplayer game of EDH? I've been playing EDH for what, almost a decade now I'd guess, and the number of times I can remember ultimating a PW is maybe a couple dozen times. So this idea that PWs with good ultimates (good, mind you, not even game ending ones) would need to be banned is crazy to me. Cryo listed Teferi, Timebender as a problematic card. I literally didn't even know it existed until right now. If you play a 6 mana card, protect it from 3 other players' creatures, and then wait 2 turns, I think you deserve an extra turn. Or you could just play Time Warp. I'm honestly confused how ya'll think so many PWs would suddenly become a problem if they could be generals despite nobody ever complaining about any of these cards in the 99.
I will acknowledge there are a few that could be problematic. My list would probably be less than 5, however, not the 30+ or however many Cryo listed.
Me personally? A few times. But that's because I don't run a lot of them now, and when I do run them, i don't build an entire deck around a single card in my 99. Now if I WERE to build a deck around a planeswalker, particularly if I wanted to ultimate it, then I would include more ways to achieve that. Let's say Teferi. In mono blue I've got a few proliferate cards to race my counters, as well as artifacts like Contagion Engine and Rings. There are also plenty of Evacuation effects as well. Now, I don't find this very interesting to jump through hoops in order for a Time Warp, but perhaps for some of the other blue options, especially when adding white opens up my options to wraths and creature finishers.
Just out of curiosity, how often have you all actually ultimated a PW in a multiplayer game of EDH?
This is a poorly phrased question, and obviously you’ll get similar answers to what you experienced because not all PW’s have impactful ultimates. As to the question itself, though, hundreds of times. I’ve been playing EDH in some capacity since Original Zendikar, so I’ve been around the block a few times(not sure what this has to do with this discussion, but you included it and so will I.). Anyways, yes, hundreds of times I have seen a PW ultimate, probably more. I’ve seen multiple instances of PW’s Ultimating in a single game. This isn’t due to some unbalanced power level, it’s due to cards like Doubling Season or Gilder Barin, or from a critical mass of PW’s on the field making removing them a bit of a chore, or just from them getting lucky and being able to pull it off. You aren’t going to be able to remove a PW every game, even with 3 players. Some decks don’t match up well with them, some decks have strategies that make them inherently hard to remove, it’s just what PW’s are supposed to be. Now this leads me to my next point...
I'm honestly confused how ya'll think so many PWs would suddenly become a problem if they could be generals despite nobody ever complaining about any of these cards in the 99.
One word. Redundancy. Having a way to easily recur a spent ‘walker is being incredibly undervalued in these discussions. Paying an extra 2 is a pretty solid deal to return a Ugin, Ashiok, or Karn(among many, many others). You’ll also be protecting it in the deckbuilding phase, so you’ll naturally be able to abuse it’s abilities more often. Cards that can only exist in the 99 are fine to evaluate in a vacuum, but when it comes to playable as generals? You can’t utilize the same criteria because it is most certainly not the same thing.
I will acknowledge there are a few that could be problematic. My list would probably be less than 5, however, not the 30+ or however many Cryo listed.
Because it's much easier to ultimate a planeswalker that you can cast whenever you want than it is to do it with one you had to draw into within 99 cards.
You have more opportunity to, it's not actually any easier.
Me personally? A few times. But that's because I don't run a lot of them now, and when I do run them, i don't build an entire deck around a single card in my 99. Now if I WERE to build a deck around a planeswalker, particularly if I wanted to ultimate it, then I would include more ways to achieve that. Let's say Teferi. In mono blue I've got a few proliferate cards to race my counters, as well as artifacts like Contagion Engine and Rings. There are also plenty of Evacuation effects as well. Now, I don't find this very interesting to jump through hoops in order for a Time Warp, but perhaps for some of the other blue options, especially when adding white opens up my options to wraths and creature finishers.
YMMV, of course.
That's the point. You've warped your entire deck to achieve a single goal. You've built a combo deck, except the combo is take a single extra turn. And even then, protecting a PW just a single loop around a table is difficult, especially if it looks like your entire deck is geared around said PW. Your opponents aren't going to just sit back and let it happen. Actually getting to a PW ultimate is significantly more difficult than in looks in a multiplayer game.
You listed JtMS as potentially problematic, but ask anyone that has ever run him in EDH and they'll tell you he is mediocre at best. I think your perception of PWs is significantly different from the reality of them in terms of EDH.
You listed JtMS as potentially problematic, but ask anyone that has ever run him in EDH and they'll tell you he is mediocre at best. I think your perception of PWs is significantly different from the reality of them in terms of EDH.
This is your speculation, just like my stance was mine. Is including a bunch of auras in a Uril deck building a combo deck, or did I just include a bunch of support cards to achieve my overall goal? For that matter, how differently does Uril play in the 99 versus in the Command Zone?
I have ultimatted, just from memory:
Venser, the Sojourner - >10 times (lost count, but this is my most played deck)
Nissa, Vital Force > 2 times (and this is the only one that has had any aid from proliferate)
Elspeth, Sun's Champion - >10 times (lost count, but this is my most played deck)
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - >3 times
Garruk, Caller of Beasts -> 1 time, with a deck that I don't particularly play much and have since taken apart
Liliana of the Dark Realms -> 2-ish
Liliana Vess - 2 times
And I do not play a lot of walkers (rarely more than 2 in a deck), but I do tend to play wrath heavy decks that discourage attacks.
My Atraxa deck is literal garbage (see the link, it is seriously trash) and it's ultimatted walkers in 2 / 3 of its games and had Gideon Jura at double digit loyalty in one.
It's not that hard to ultimate walkers in mid-powered metas. In CEDH, sure, I get it, but you might as well not bother talking about CEDH as it doesn't really affect bannings much.
* Obviously that's anecdotal and doesn't tell you what percentage of games I ultimate walkers. My guess offhand would be that ~5% of my Ephara games end in either a Venser or Elspeth ultimate. It's a pretty grindy deck and late in the game when I"m full on cards it's often safer to wait for an ultimate to start killing people--and Elspeth/Venser both go pretty fast (for different reasons).
** If Venser was my commander I would ultimate him a lot. It's pretty easy to set up soft locks with him, e.g. Scourge of Fleets type stuff. I don't know if the deck would win a lot but there'd be a lot of games ending in me vindicating the board with cantrips.
This is your speculation, just like my stance was mine. Is including a bunch of auras in a Uril deck building a combo deck, or did I just include a bunch of support cards to achieve my overall goal? For that matter, how differently does Uril play in the 99 versus in the Command Zone?
Voltron is definitely more combo than anything else. Putting a bunch of mediocre cards (auras, in this case) in your deck that only have synergy with your commander is pretty much a combo. If we go back to Teferi, Timebender + Contagion Engine are there any other counter synergies in the deck, or did you put Engine in for the sole purpose of proliferating Teferi?
If you really want to, you can build a significant number of generals in extremely abusive ways. Just take a look at any top tier generals, in fact. Is that what we think the average player is going to do if they are allowed to use PWs as generals? Yeah, Narset, Enlightened Master can be built with mono-Time Warps. Or you can build a sweet enchantment deck. Since when did we start banning generals because someone might build them as competitively as possible? The banned generals are banned because they can easily and completely remove your ability to play the game, and they can do it very reliably and very quickly. And there's also Rofflecoptor. PWs simply don't meet that criteria when they take multiple turns or a significant amount of extra support cards to maybe sort of win the game when they ultimate?
My Atraxa deck is literal garbage (see the link, it is seriously trash) and it's ultimatted walkers in 2 / 3 of its games and had Gideon Jura at double digit loyalty in one.
Honestly this feels like evidence for my argument. If Atraxa, Praetors' Voice didn't cause any PWs to get banned, it seems unlikely being able to play them as your general would. She's simply the best option for Superfriends and it's not even particularly close. If someone just wants to abuse PWs, they'll build an Atraxa deck.
That list of commanders to worry about is...very generous.
Here's my list of problematic commanders: dack fayden - Consistently stealing sol rings and the other broken mana rocks that should but never will be banned probably makes him too consistent tamiyo, field researcher - Almost certainly wins the game on the spot with doubling season sorin markov - Setting someone's life to 10 in commander is really lame in casual play
And that's it.
Most of the listed commanders are substantially weaker than the already available options like daretti and mono blue teferi
That list of commanders to worry about is...very generous.
Here's my list of problematic commanders: dack fayden - Consistently stealing sol rings and the other broken mana rocks that should but never will be banned probably makes him too consistent tamiyo, field researcher - Almost certainly wins the game on the spot with doubling season sorin markov - Setting someone's life to 10 in commander is really lame in casual play
And that's it.
Most of the listed commanders are substantially weaker than the already available options like daretti and mono blue teferi
Oh I fully admit to being generous and overly cautious. Because what is the alternative? "O ***** u guise we dun goofed because we didn't consider the worst case scenario now we have to undo the rule change." The RC doesn't make rules changes lightly, especially when they would have a large effect on the format. So why should we approach this with a narrow mind as well and just consider how we would be affected by the change or our own opinion.
Because it's much easier to ultimate a planeswalker that you can cast whenever you want than it is to do it with one you had to draw into within 99 cards.
You have more opportunity to, it's not actually any easier.
This right here is an overlooked point.
The response to well this is a lot of work to maybe hit an emblem being that well it is your Commander you can just try again, is so weird because of the implications it makes about what your opponents all 3 of them are doing at this time. Not to mention that Commander Tax is still a thing.
Commander games are not unlimited affairs, you can do this thing forever doesn't feel like a valid complaint.
[Honestly this feels like evidence for my argument. If Atraxa, Praetors' Voice didn't cause any PWs to get banned, it seems unlikely being able to play them as your general would. She's simply the best option for Superfriends and it's not even particularly close. If someone just wants to abuse PWs, they'll build an Atraxa deck.
I'm not sure, I think you're [Impossible] falling prey to the same assumption a lot of folks are, which is that PWs in the command zone == a superfriends deck. Could just as easily be a PW in the command zone enabling a stax, combo or even hard control strategy in ways we can't predict.
I know I don't really have any interest in jamming a bunch of walkers in a Dack deck, for example; I'd be more inclined to play an artifact combo finish with just a couple walkers that make sense (tezz, daretti, maybe saheeli 1 or 2).
Even just a little bit of support (e.g. Deepglow Skate in your Jacerayo deck) is fine, and doesn't mean you need to play a bunch of bad walkers to support it.
I am not assuming a planeswalker in the lead means the deck has a bunch of them.
In your Jace example it depends on how tuned that deck becomes and where the line is between oh I guess this thing can ultimate to this deck is designed to do nothing but achieve this (also not the easiest thing to do in Mono-U).
Oh I fully admit to being generous and overly cautious. Because what is the alternative? "O ***** u guise we dun goofed because we didn't consider the worst case scenario now we have to undo the rule change." The RC doesn't make rules changes lightly, especially when they would have a large effect on the format. So why should we approach this with a narrow mind as well and just consider how we would be affected by the change or our own opinion.
The alternative is to allow PW generals and then keep an eye out for any especially problematic ones. Specifically I think Tamiyo, Field Researcher could end up being a bit much. Even Griselbrand was allowed to prove how broken he was before getting banned.
I'm not sure, I think you're [Impossible] falling prey to the same assumption a lot of folks are, which is that PWs in the command zone == a superfriends deck. Could just as easily be a PW in the command zone enabling a stax, combo or even hard control strategy in ways we can't predict.
I mention it only because people have an unhealthy obsession with judging PWs by their ultimates, and Superfriends is probably where you'll see the most ultimates go off. With Atraxa, we've all been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. As for enabling other strategies... you say that like it's a bad thing? Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a stax commander and I thought it was a pretty cool idea. I've never seen mono-white stax before. What exactly is the problem? Isn't enabling new strategies kind of the point of opening up the format to more generals?
Honestly my biggest issue isn't a power level thing, it's a fun issue. I really dislike Commander games where there is one player who is a giant threat before the game begins and the other players have to keep constant pressure on that one person. Because what usually happens is that Player 2 gets to sit back and watch Players 3 and 4 expend all their resources and then out of nowhere up and win the game. Player 1 is disappointed because they got ganged up on with nothing to show for it, and I feel cheated because I wasn't even able to have the option of making proper threat assessment, and instead had to blindly attack Elzpeth stax which quite possibly was just tribal soldiers but I never let them find out.
This is the format where we get to build around one card that is the face of our deck, and you guys are fighting for a change where literally the solution is to just not let them play their general. That just doesn't sit right with me.
Edit: they don't preemptively ban cards which is why Griselbrand was allowed to run free. This is effectively unbending cards, which they do very cautiously. Also, holy ***** dude, you think introducing more stax decks to the format is a good thing?
If you build your deck around Planeswalker, and specifically hitting ults, it isn't as hard as you'd think. I have a Djeru deck. It's not great, but it can be pretty obnoxious, and it isn't terribly difficult to get your walkers to ult. It is built to protect walkers and can go for whatever is the best choice at the moment. It is held back only by being mono white, the worst commander color, and Djeru being a 5 Mana tax on whatever walker you are grabbing first compared to if it were in the command zone. It isn't built around any individual walker, which weakens them all. I also don't own Karn.
All of these drawbacks combine to make the deck interesting to play with or against rather than an unfun grind. It means I get the flashiness of dropping walkers and hitting ults without it being the same one over and over, or falling too deep into the superfriends grind trap. Big Elspeth, Ugin, big Karn, Gideon champion of Justice, those would all be absolutely disgusting as commanders.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
There're a ton of Heliod and Teshar mono white stax decks already so not really a new ground there.
All of those strategies already exist, they just might exist in a really annoying way with walker commanders. Not guaranteed of course but why take the chance?
It's tough but I think Tezz might be the most annoying stax one, since your commander can be Pithing Needle, Torpor Orb, or Tormod's Crypt or Winter Orb/Static Orb/etc., tanglewire. People are mostly on the "tezz is worse than Teferi" bandwagon but I think that's fairly shortsighted Hell, even Smokestack potentially pretty gross.
I do think we're kinda circling back on ourselves at this point with the fundamentals being one side thinks the potential diversity is worth the risk and the other doesn't.
Only a bigger deal if you think the end result will be a big deal.
I think adding cards to the card pool for any card game is one of the most important goals. It's part of what makes them interesting to play, the fact that they are constantly evolving with new game pieces. If people want to play with the same pieces every time, there are countless games designed around that, chess as one of the most basic examples. For those that invest into magic, I believe they really want that evolving gameplay with the knowledge that new cards will come multiple times a year.
If every effort is made to keep commander the same, it will eventually grow boring. I personally hit that point a year ago where the available options stopped interesting me, others have different breaking points, at some point the format will need to evolve.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
- there are a number of planeswalkers that I feel would have to be banned or would otherwise not be healthy(see below)
- there would be a real effect on the secondary market, such as cards like [c]Contagion Engine{/c] and certain planeswalkers
- a majority of the planeswalkers are mediocre and would not see more play than they already do (questioning why there needs to be a change that would not have the promised effect of adding 140 new generals)
- players have no way to interact with emblems, meaning every time a game is played with a scary PW general the game is automatically unbalanced in terms of threat assessment
- WotC does not for the most part build with EDH in mind, meaning that either there is always the possibility of a new planeswalker being printed with some absurd ability, or they would have to nerf design in order to accommodate EDH
Planeswalkers I would keep an eye on or ban:
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - I don't know what kind of deck I would build with this, but I doubt that it would be something my opponents found enjoyable. I don't think anyone has patted me on the back for playing Identity Crisis
Dack fayden - There has already been plenty of talk about Dack, and it doesn't seem like he would be a consideration for banning
Domri Rade - maybe not ban worthy, but his ultimate would be very threatening, and the low casting cost means he can be recast a number of times
Dovin Baan - remember how everyone loved playing against Derevi stax?
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - monowhite stax is the first build that popped into my head
Garruk, CAller of Beasts - a tutoring general in the Command Zone that creates an emblem cheating the mana system
Gideon, Champion of Justice - this should be banned for interacting poorly with the format
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - monoblue control shell with an ultimate that takes one player out of the game
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets - Erayo is already banned
Karn Liberated - Sharazahad is already banned. And put some pants on, dammit!
Narset Transcendant - She should probably be banned as well. Her minus ability pairs quite nicely with time magic, and her ultimate stops opponents from playing part of their decks
Nichol Bolas, God-Pharoh - another one-sided ultimate that is back-breaking
Nissa Revane - Elfball decks are already a thing, and this ultimate just tutors your wincon. Dunno if that makes it ban-worthy, but certainly dangerous
Ral Zarek - extra turn card in the Command Zone
Saheeli Rai - tutors in the Command Zone are dangerous, and this can grab stuff like Paradox Engine + mana rocks for infinite mana combos, Blightsteel Colossus +Lightning Greaves, etc.
Samut, the Tested - Tooth and Nail in the Command Zone
Sarkan the Unbroken - large tutor in the Command Zone
Sarkan, Dragonsoul - see above, but less powerful since it's monored
Sorin Markov - Mindslaver in the Command Zone
Tamiyo, Field Researcher - way too strong of an emblem to have in the Command Zone
Tamio the Moon Sage - very strong effect for the Command Zone, I could see a lot of storm builds with this
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria - very strong emblem that turns a game into resource removal and denial
Teferi, Timebender - extra turn card in the Command Zone, in the colors that can most easily blink permanents
Tezzeret, the Seeker - tutor in the Command Zone
Tezzeret, Artifice Master - tutor in the Command Zone
Ugin, Spirit Dragon - very strong ultimate that you have access to the turn after Ugin comes into play, but I don't know if Ugin would replace Kozilek simply because you don't get the instant gratification of refilling your hand
Venser, the Sojourner - similar to Teferi, HoD
Vivien, Reid - probably not oppressive, but still a strong ultimate to always have potential access to
Vraska, the Unseen - seems like a Stax deck in the making
Vraska, Golgari Queen - see above, only worse since she draws you cards while ticking her up
Vraska, Scheming Gorgon - have I mentioned I'm not fond of "lose the game" effects in the Command Zone?
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Agree on 99% of this. I wanted to do a similar write up, but I didn’t want to deal with the nit picking that is going to follow “Well, you can do X to counteract Y”. It’s discussions like these that really bring out the mental gymnastics.
Simply put, all PW’s shouldn’t be legal commanders. As for brewing devices? There are literally ~10 PW’s I would consider being “new” in terms of strategy and deckbuilding, and those aren’t even very good to begin with(specifically those with tribal elements). Other than that, they will just be goodstuf.dec but “hey, look, I have a PW in the command zone”.
I was also thinking about which existing planeswalkers might be good enough to play as generals without being entirely broken. I couldn't come up with many, really. I think the three WB Sorin cards would probably be okay, even with the repeatable emblem thing, but in each case I don't know that losing out on commander damage wins would be worth the advantages one gains. Chandra, Torch of Defiance might allow for an okay burn deck, I guess, especially if you used things like The Chain Veil and got multiple emblems (which as I type it sounds kinda magic Xmas land). Garruk Wildspeaker and Garruk, Primal Hunter might be good to build around, but I have a hard time viewing them as any more backbreaking than anything G can already easily do. I'm probably missing a few others but the point is, if you take out the ones who would have to be banned, I think the number of planeswalkers people would actually want to play as generals is fairly small - probably smaller than the number that would have to be banned outright (most of Cryo's mentions) - and as a result, the functional number of new generals added to the list would be fairly small. I mean, sure, someone might make an Ajani Goldmane deck, just like they can currently do a Jasmine Boreal deck, but a) how many people would actually do that? and b) why? I certainly don't see what is gained as balancing the loss of several planeswalkers which are currently playable in the format, because with the demise of BaaC, the planeswalkers banned from being a commander would almost certainly end up being banned from the format. Venser in the command zone = actively bad. Venser in the 99 is strong, but fine. Poor Venser is already dead, I'd hate to see him also banished from EDH.
Please, think about poor Venser!
I will acknowledge there are a few that could be problematic. My list would probably be less than 5, however, not the 30+ or however many Cryo listed.
This makes your posts make more sense. You aren't so much arguing the merits of allowing Planeswalker as you are arguing for a change in the structure of the format. Before I get into that, I want to refer you back to the rebuttal that I already made to your point that printing pw commanders has set a precedent, which is that the precedent it set is that its something that can be done on a limited basis specifically for commander because the tiles technology exists to do so, and even then doing so has led to a few obnoxious commanders that we'd be better off without, a load of crap nobody plays, and Windgrace as the lone valuable addition. Basically they've proven to be a bad idea.
Anyway, your argument that things should be allowed unless they prove they shouldn't be has merit when it comes to the banlist. As an argument for allowing pws, it's poor, unless you want to argue that any legendary permanent should be allowed. Or any creature. It's the same level of structural change, and making this argument but limiting it to pws is arbitrary.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Me personally? A few times. But that's because I don't run a lot of them now, and when I do run them, i don't build an entire deck around a single card in my 99. Now if I WERE to build a deck around a planeswalker, particularly if I wanted to ultimate it, then I would include more ways to achieve that. Let's say Teferi. In mono blue I've got a few proliferate cards to race my counters, as well as artifacts like Contagion Engine and Rings. There are also plenty of Evacuation effects as well. Now, I don't find this very interesting to jump through hoops in order for a Time Warp, but perhaps for some of the other blue options, especially when adding white opens up my options to wraths and creature finishers.
YMMV, of course.
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This is a poorly phrased question, and obviously you’ll get similar answers to what you experienced because not all PW’s have impactful ultimates. As to the question itself, though, hundreds of times. I’ve been playing EDH in some capacity since Original Zendikar, so I’ve been around the block a few times(not sure what this has to do with this discussion, but you included it and so will I.). Anyways, yes, hundreds of times I have seen a PW ultimate, probably more. I’ve seen multiple instances of PW’s Ultimating in a single game. This isn’t due to some unbalanced power level, it’s due to cards like Doubling Season or Gilder Barin, or from a critical mass of PW’s on the field making removing them a bit of a chore, or just from them getting lucky and being able to pull it off. You aren’t going to be able to remove a PW every game, even with 3 players. Some decks don’t match up well with them, some decks have strategies that make them inherently hard to remove, it’s just what PW’s are supposed to be. Now this leads me to my next point...
One word. Redundancy. Having a way to easily recur a spent ‘walker is being incredibly undervalued in these discussions. Paying an extra 2 is a pretty solid deal to return a Ugin, Ashiok, or Karn(among many, many others). You’ll also be protecting it in the deckbuilding phase, so you’ll naturally be able to abuse it’s abilities more often. Cards that can only exist in the 99 are fine to evaluate in a vacuum, but when it comes to playable as generals? You can’t utilize the same criteria because it is most certainly not the same thing.
Well? We’re waiting.
You listed JtMS as potentially problematic, but ask anyone that has ever run him in EDH and they'll tell you he is mediocre at best. I think your perception of PWs is significantly different from the reality of them in terms of EDH.
This is your speculation, just like my stance was mine. Is including a bunch of auras in a Uril deck building a combo deck, or did I just include a bunch of support cards to achieve my overall goal? For that matter, how differently does Uril play in the 99 versus in the Command Zone?
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Venser, the Sojourner - >10 times (lost count, but this is my most played deck)
Nissa, Vital Force > 2 times (and this is the only one that has had any aid from proliferate)
Elspeth, Sun's Champion - >10 times (lost count, but this is my most played deck)
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - >3 times
Garruk, Caller of Beasts -> 1 time, with a deck that I don't particularly play much and have since taken apart
Liliana of the Dark Realms -> 2-ish
Liliana Vess - 2 times
And I do not play a lot of walkers (rarely more than 2 in a deck), but I do tend to play wrath heavy decks that discourage attacks.
My Atraxa deck is literal garbage (see the link, it is seriously trash) and it's ultimatted walkers in 2 / 3 of its games and had Gideon Jura at double digit loyalty in one.
It's not that hard to ultimate walkers in mid-powered metas. In CEDH, sure, I get it, but you might as well not bother talking about CEDH as it doesn't really affect bannings much.
* Obviously that's anecdotal and doesn't tell you what percentage of games I ultimate walkers. My guess offhand would be that ~5% of my Ephara games end in either a Venser or Elspeth ultimate. It's a pretty grindy deck and late in the game when I"m full on cards it's often safer to wait for an ultimate to start killing people--and Elspeth/Venser both go pretty fast (for different reasons).
** If Venser was my commander I would ultimate him a lot. It's pretty easy to set up soft locks with him, e.g. Scourge of Fleets type stuff. I don't know if the deck would win a lot but there'd be a lot of games ending in me vindicating the board with cantrips.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
If you really want to, you can build a significant number of generals in extremely abusive ways. Just take a look at any top tier generals, in fact. Is that what we think the average player is going to do if they are allowed to use PWs as generals? Yeah, Narset, Enlightened Master can be built with mono-Time Warps. Or you can build a sweet enchantment deck. Since when did we start banning generals because someone might build them as competitively as possible? The banned generals are banned because they can easily and completely remove your ability to play the game, and they can do it very reliably and very quickly. And there's also Rofflecoptor. PWs simply don't meet that criteria when they take multiple turns or a significant amount of extra support cards to maybe sort of win the game when they ultimate? Honestly this feels like evidence for my argument. If Atraxa, Praetors' Voice didn't cause any PWs to get banned, it seems unlikely being able to play them as your general would. She's simply the best option for Superfriends and it's not even particularly close. If someone just wants to abuse PWs, they'll build an Atraxa deck.
Here's my list of problematic commanders:
dack fayden - Consistently stealing sol rings and the other broken mana rocks that should but never will be banned probably makes him too consistent
tamiyo, field researcher - Almost certainly wins the game on the spot with doubling season
sorin markov - Setting someone's life to 10 in commander is really lame in casual play
And that's it.
Most of the listed commanders are substantially weaker than the already available options like daretti and mono blue teferi
Oh I fully admit to being generous and overly cautious. Because what is the alternative? "O ***** u guise we dun goofed because we didn't consider the worst case scenario now we have to undo the rule change." The RC doesn't make rules changes lightly, especially when they would have a large effect on the format. So why should we approach this with a narrow mind as well and just consider how we would be affected by the change or our own opinion.
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This right here is an overlooked point.
The response to well this is a lot of work to maybe hit an emblem being that well it is your Commander you can just try again, is so weird because of the implications it makes about what your opponents all 3 of them are doing at this time. Not to mention that Commander Tax is still a thing.
Commander games are not unlimited affairs, you can do this thing forever doesn't feel like a valid complaint.
I'm not sure, I think you're [Impossible] falling prey to the same assumption a lot of folks are, which is that PWs in the command zone == a superfriends deck. Could just as easily be a PW in the command zone enabling a stax, combo or even hard control strategy in ways we can't predict.
I know I don't really have any interest in jamming a bunch of walkers in a Dack deck, for example; I'd be more inclined to play an artifact combo finish with just a couple walkers that make sense (tezz, daretti, maybe saheeli 1 or 2).
Even just a little bit of support (e.g. Deepglow Skate in your Jacerayo deck) is fine, and doesn't mean you need to play a bunch of bad walkers to support it.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
In your Jace example it depends on how tuned that deck becomes and where the line is between oh I guess this thing can ultimate to this deck is designed to do nothing but achieve this (also not the easiest thing to do in Mono-U).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This is the format where we get to build around one card that is the face of our deck, and you guys are fighting for a change where literally the solution is to just not let them play their general. That just doesn't sit right with me.
Edit: they don't preemptively ban cards which is why Griselbrand was allowed to run free. This is effectively unbending cards, which they do very cautiously. Also, holy ***** dude, you think introducing more stax decks to the format is a good thing?
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All of these drawbacks combine to make the deck interesting to play with or against rather than an unfun grind. It means I get the flashiness of dropping walkers and hitting ults without it being the same one over and over, or falling too deep into the superfriends grind trap. Big Elspeth, Ugin, big Karn, Gideon champion of Justice, those would all be absolutely disgusting as commanders.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
All of those strategies already exist, they just might exist in a really annoying way with walker commanders. Not guaranteed of course but why take the chance?
It's tough but I think Tezz might be the most annoying stax one, since your commander can be Pithing Needle, Torpor Orb, or Tormod's Crypt or Winter Orb/Static Orb/etc., tanglewire. People are mostly on the "tezz is worse than Teferi" bandwagon but I think that's fairly shortsighted Hell, even Smokestack potentially pretty gross.
I do think we're kinda circling back on ourselves at this point with the fundamentals being one side thinks the potential diversity is worth the risk and the other doesn't.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall