Commander has loads of cards that cost at least 2, so for those spells it's almost always better to run a Sol Ring or a Mana crypt than a mox. Sure, if you play 5 colours you might have an advantage because you can play all 5 moxen, but playing more colours tend to make your deck less consistent, because you don't always have the right colours to play spells for instance. We all focus on the idea of 'god hands' with which extreme plays can be achieved, but in reality there's also the chance of drawing a 'dead' mox when you really want an asnwer. Plus, extremely strong first turns are also possible without those moxen.
I personally don't see the problem of unbanning them. I think it is weird that Sol Ring is promoted and advocated as much as it is and mana rocks that I consider lesser in the format are banned. Availabiltiy or price can never be an argument, because those differences will always be there and are more expensive deck isn't necessarily a better deck.
I feel some cards are never really tested but were just thought of as 'maybe too powerful' so they were left out from the start. For instance, I think Library of Alexandria should also not be banned. Sure, it can be a powerhouse card, but there are so many more cards that are powerhouses that are not banned and should not be banned according to me. Most good cards can be powerful under the right circumstances.
How is it better when a mox + land nets the exact same effect???
By legalizing moxen you now have ~5 additional ways to get to that 2. Secondly, by freeing moxen, you are essentially increasing the consistency of those decks, giving access to free colored mana. That argument doesn't hold water.
Just going to quickly talk about my Ottawa playgroup. We have a whale or two that will just get any card that makes their deck more broken, and they'd get moxen. We don't generally allow proxies except if you already own the card or are going to get a copy, so I'd have to spend thousands to get a Mox Sapphire and Mox Pearl for my new Hanna deck, which sounds so bleh. No, they probably wouldn't break the game open except in super-cutthroat metagames, but I would much prefer we have a little less fast mana than a little more.
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Commander has loads of cards that cost at least 2, so for those spells it's almost always better to run a Sol Ring or a Mana crypt than a mox. Sure, if you play 5 colours you might have an advantage because you can play all 5 moxen, but playing more colours tend to make your deck less consistent, because you don't always have the right colours to play spells for instance. We all focus on the idea of 'god hands' with which extreme plays can be achieved, but in reality there's also the chance of drawing a 'dead' mox when you really want an asnwer. Plus, extremely strong first turns are also possible without those moxen.
I personally don't see the problem of unbanning them. I think it is weird that Sol Ring is promoted and advocated as much as it is and mana rocks that I consider lesser in the format are banned. Availabiltiy or price can never be an argument, because those differences will always be there and are more expensive deck isn't necessarily a better deck.
I feel some cards are never really tested but were just thought of as 'maybe too powerful' so they were left out from the start. For instance, I think Library of Alexandria should also not be banned. Sure, it can be a powerhouse card, but there are so many more cards that are powerhouses that are not banned and should not be banned according to me. Most good cards can be powerful under the right circumstances.
How is it better when a mox + land nets the exact same effect???
By legalizing moxen you now have ~5 additional ways to get to that 2. Secondly, by freeing moxen, you are essentially increasing the consistency of those decks, giving access to free colored mana. That argument doesn't hold water.
You're forgetting that the difference between a Sol Ring and a Mox + land is that the latter costs you 2 cards rather than one.I agree that it increases consistency, but by how much? I don't know that answer and really the only way to find out how much more consistent it is, is by testing it. Therefore I say unban them and see what happens. If it becomes too much of a thing then ban them again. Not ideal, I know. But better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all I say. You can't ban cards because of speculation I feel.
Uh, what? Last I checked, Sol Ring costs 1. Sure, it puts you ahead mana wise, but the initial effect is identical. On top of that, you could keep a landless hand and still maintain tempo with Mox, not true for Sol Ring.
No reason to unban for a test drive. Look at Vintage, and that's all you need to know. The format is warped around Fast Mana. You are only adding 39 cards to what you'd play in Vintage decks, but combine that with the overall slower nature of EDH, the difference in what the Moxen will do to EDH is negligible at best. Beyond that, Vintage, and even legacy, is just a combination of already "broken" cards that are either severely undercosted(or free) or that cheat cards into play. All decks there are like that to some extent. EDH has "staples" like Cultivatethe signets, among others, and those are cards that aren't played anywhere else but the kitchen table for the most part. They are fair, definitely not overpowered, except when you can play them turn-1, accelerate to 6 on turn 2(with basically all color combinations available at this point) and then drop any relevant Commander, and a couple cards in hand to boot. That's not even worst case scenario, as with redundancy comes less variance.
they probably wouldn't break the game open except in super-cutthroat metagames, but I would much prefer we have a little less fast mana than a little more.
I mean, me too, but "super-cutthroat metagames" aren't exactly part of the RC banning philosophy, now, are they?
Uh, what? Last I checked, Sol Ring costs 1. Sure, it puts you ahead mana wise, but the initial effect is identical. On top of that, you could keep a landless hand and still maintain tempo with Mox, not true for Sol Ring.
This point is moot because you're essentially just saying "If you have one of these and a land, it's better than the other one by itself."
No reason to unban for a test drive. Look at Vintage, and that's all you need to know. The format is warped around Fast Mana. You are only adding 39 cards to what you'd play in Vintage decks, but combine that with the overall slower nature of EDH, the difference in what the Moxen will do to EDH is negligible at best. Beyond that, Vintage, and even legacy, is just a combination of already "broken" cards that are either severely undercosted(or free) or that cheat cards into play. All decks there are like that to some extent.
This sounds like you've never played or even seen play of Vintage, and probably not Legacy either. Yes, fast mana is omnipresent, but beyond basically a selection of storm decks, decks have generally been cutting fast mana for spells over time
except when you can play them turn-1, accelerate to 6 on turn 2(with basically all color combinations available at this point) and then drop any relevant Commander, and a couple cards in hand to boot. That's not even worst case scenario, as with redundancy comes less variance.
Uh, what? Last I checked, Sol Ring costs 1. Sure, it puts you ahead mana wise, but the initial effect is identical. On top of that, you could keep a landless hand and still maintain tempo with Mox, not true for Sol Ring.
This point is moot because you're essentially just saying "If you have one of these and a land, it's better than the other one by itself."
I didn't say that. There's a big difference between what I said and what you are implying. You'd keep a hand containing a Mox + Land, you wouldn't a landless hand with sol Ring. Sounds simple, sure, but again, talking consistency of format built on presumed inconsistencies.
No reason to unban for a test drive. Look at Vintage, and that's all you need to know. The format is warped around Fast Mana. You are only adding 39 cards to what you'd play in Vintage decks, but combine that with the overall slower nature of EDH, the difference in what the Moxen will do to EDH is negligible at best. Beyond that, Vintage, and even legacy, is just a combination of already "broken" cards that are either severely undercosted(or free) or that cheat cards into play. All decks there are like that to some extent.
This sounds like you've never played or even seen play of Vintage, and probably not Legacy either. Yes, fast mana is omnipresent, but beyond basically a selection of storm decks, decks have generally been cutting fast mana for spells over time
Uhm, no. So you're saying folks are cutting these Mox, Black Lotus, City of Traitors, Tolarian Academy, Gaes Cradle, Mishras Workshop, Lions Eye Diamond, for... what? Vintage is built around the accessibility of Fast Mana, and 90% of it is restricted to singles. Sure, Legacy isn't quite on the same level, but it's predicated on light-speed broken plays(SneakShow, LED Dredge, Storm, Omnishow, etc.). So, EDH should be the same thing? That's the only thing Mox do, speed up the game clock allowing for faster broken plays. Like I said, the difference being that Kodamas Reach won't ever be broken at turn 1 in Vintage/legacy, but is absolutely an incredible advantage in EDH. Increasing the consistency of those plays doesn't sound like a good, or smart idea.
except when you can play them turn-1, accelerate to 6 on turn 2(with basically all color combinations available at this point) and then drop any relevant Commander, and a couple cards in hand to boot. That's not even worst case scenario, as with redundancy comes less variance.
There is exactly one reason I would like to see the Moxen available: I have a landless deck, which currently relies on a very small number of cards to get started with mana: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, Mana Crypt. There's also Chancellor of the Tangle if it's in my opening hand, and Mox Opal if I have two other artifacts (can be Jeweled Amulet, Urza's Bauble, Mishra's Bauble, Phyrexian Walker, Paradise Mantle, Memnite, Ornithopter, or even Everflowing Chalice without kicker to get Mox Opal producing mana without other mana sources). Moxen would be expensive, sure, but it would significantly increase the number of playable opening hands for that deck.
That said, a single off-the-wall deck is not a good argument in favor of their unbanning. I think a far more realistic probability for more starting mana in that deck would be a full Spirit Guide cycle, though even those might be problematic to add to Legacy.
Uhm, no. So you're saying folks are cutting these Mox, Black Lotus, City of Traitors, Tolarian Academy, Gaes Cradle, Mishras Workshop, Lions Eye Diamond, for... what? Vintage is built around the accessibility of Fast Mana, and 90% of it is restricted to singles. Sure, Legacy isn't quite on the same level, but it's predicated on light-speed broken plays(SneakShow, LED Dredge, Storm, Omnishow, etc.). So, EDH should be the same thing? That's the only thing Mox do, speed up the game clock allowing for faster broken plays. Like I said, the difference being that Kodamas Reach won't ever be broken at turn 1 in Vintage/legacy, but is absolutely an incredible advantage in EDH. Increasing the consistency of those plays doesn't sound like a good, or smart idea.
Not exactly, more that the prevalence of restricted list cards in the average decklist has generally gone down over time, with more aggressive strategies taking the reins. In the case of Moxen in particular, Null Rod, Stony Silence, and the like have gotten much more popular, leading to an increase in decks which run fewer Moxen. Not to mention that EDH isn't a turn 1 format, and still wouldn't be with Moxen, and EDH's consistency is so much lower than Vintage that saying that the Moxen would make a catastrophic difference is overreacting. A significant difference? Possibly. A catastrophic difference? Probably not.
But based on your posts in the Sol Ring thread, it would appear that your stance is that fast mana should be banned. So it makes me question your motivations for making this thread to discuss a set of banned cards you want to leave banned.
Uhm, no. So you're saying folks are cutting these Mox, Black Lotus, City of Traitors, Tolarian Academy, Gaes Cradle, Mishras Workshop, Lions Eye Diamond, for... what? Vintage is built around the accessibility of Fast Mana, and 90% of it is restricted to singles. Sure, Legacy isn't quite on the same level, but it's predicated on light-speed broken plays(SneakShow, LED Dredge, Storm, Omnishow, etc.). So, EDH should be the same thing? That's the only thing Mox do, speed up the game clock allowing for faster broken plays. Like I said, the difference being that Kodamas Reach won't ever be broken at turn 1 in Vintage/legacy, but is absolutely an incredible advantage in EDH. Increasing the consistency of those plays doesn't sound like a good, or smart idea.
Not exactly, more that the prevalence of restricted list cards in the average decklist has generally gone down over time, with more aggressive strategies taking the reins. In the case of Moxen in particular, Null Rod, Stony Silence, and the like have gotten much more popular, leading to an increase in decks which run fewer Moxen. Not to mention that EDH isn't a turn 1 format, and still wouldn't be with Moxen, and EDH's consistency is so much lower than Vintage that saying that the Moxen would make a catastrophic difference is overreacting. A significant difference? Possibly. A catastrophic difference? Probably not.
I'm saying to go one way or the other. Either ban Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, or unban the Moxen.
Catastrophic is your word, not mine.
Nobody is cutting the cards I listed because of the cards you listed, they are only played because of how powerful the other are. It's fact. Proof is in the pudding, no?
I agree that banning Sol Ring/Crypt would be a step in the right direction, but it still doesn't make sense that if they are unbanned, to unban the mox. Again, you want to eliminate the consitincy that comes with Fast Mana, unless you can't, then you want to increase the consistency? Serious question, are you trolling? This seriously sounds like trolling at this point.
Competitive multiplayer EDH is a real thing in Montreal. There are inter-store leagues where every game ends by turn 3.
I don't want moxen unbanned. It isn't even about a logical argument - I can see logic behind unbanning them.
I think commander would be better without the fast mana. Even in less competitive metas, the person with the Sol Ring wins a huge proportion of games. Still, it is a double standard for having some fast mana in the format but not others.
I just think it would make my local commander scene untenable. There is not enough supply, and the moxen would become absurdly expensive. I am 100% opposed to unbanning cards that have such limited availability, especially if they can be ubiquitously played. Look at the tabernacle at pendrell vale. This card is only played in niche decks, yet costs over 1000$.
Unbanning moxen will hurt the format, especially the competitive multiplayer leagues.
But based on your posts in the Sol Ring thread, it would appear that your stance is that fast mana should be banned. So it makes me question your motivations for making this thread to discuss a set of banned cards you want to leave banned.
Nah, either way seems reasonable, as long as it's consistent. The best world would be banning Sol Ring and Mana Crypt and leaving Moxen banned, but the other world of unbanning it all also sounds good to me.
Nobody is cutting the cards I listed because of the cards you listed, they are only played because of how powerful the other are. It's fact. Proof is in the pudding, no?
A meta shift does not have to be drastic to exist.
I agree that banning Sol Ring/Crypt would be a step in the right direction, but it still doesn't make sense that if they are unbanned, to unban the mox. Again, you want to eliminate the consistency that comes with Fast Mana, unless you can't, then you want to increase the consistency?
I'm looking for what I see as a measure of consistency in bannings, which to me is not there. I understand that based on format philosophy, that might not ever be there, but it doesn't hurt to try.
One thing I like about unbanning Moxen is that it'd make cEDH a strictly high-budget affair. Today I don't play cEDH but I try to make some of my decks almost competitive. I don't think I could say that once most cEDH decks were running 4-5 real Moxen.
On the casual side of things, though, the last thing the format needs is more fast mana. Moxen wouldn't be too bad, but everyone's used to them being banned and I don't their unbanning would add much to the format.
If this thread simply exists to argue for banlist consistency, but you don't particularly support this and would rather see a ban on Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, would it not be more productive to argue for those banning there than having this thread being dragging in circles for the sake of arguing?
If this thread simply exists to argue for banlist consistency, but you don't particularly support this and would rather see a ban on Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, would it not be more productive to argue for those banning there than having this thread being dragging in circles for the sake of arguing?
Maybe? I mean, people have brought up distinct points and banning Sol Ring looks to potentially be more of a lost cause than unbanning moxen...
There is exactly one reason I would like to see the Moxen available: I have a landless deck, which currently relies on a very small number of cards to get started with mana: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, Mana Crypt. There's also Chancellor of the Tangle if it's in my opening hand, and Mox Opal if I have two other artifacts (can be Jeweled Amulet, Urza's Bauble, Mishra's Bauble, Phyrexian Walker, Paradise Mantle, Memnite, Ornithopter, or even Everflowing Chalice without kicker to get Mox Opal producing mana without other mana sources). Moxen would be expensive, sure, but it would significantly increase the number of playable opening hands for that deck.
That said, a single off-the-wall deck is not a good argument in favor of their unbanning. I think a far more realistic probability for more starting mana in that deck would be a full Spirit Guide cycle, though even those might be problematic to add to Legacy.
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The problem with Moxen is that they are not redundant effects.
Redundant effects have value, in that they increase both consistency and resiliency, but do not increase the power of an effect. Sure, something happening more often is good, but it is not stronger.
If the concern was consistency, banning Mana Crypt & Sol Ring would still be better, but I would not be nearly as strongly opposed to unbanning Moxen instead, and would grudgingly support it in the absence of the aforementioned bans.
Moxen do not just increase the frequency of turn 1 Sol Ring-esque plays. They are cumulative with it. Now you have turn 1 Sol Ring, Mox, Mox.
Also, the original Moxen are better than Mana Crypt & Sol Ring. This is not just on turn 1, it is on the turn you cast it. More, producing colored mana is not to be discounted, and often more valuable than producing two colorless mana.
If the banned list was a hypothetical "You may play up to two of the following: Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby, & Mox Emerald, I would remove Mana Crypt & Sol Ring from nearly every deck.
One thing I like about unbanning Moxen is that it'd make cEDH a strictly high-budget affair. Today I don't play cEDH but I try to make some of my decks almost competitive. I don't think I could say that once most cEDH decks were running 4-5 real Moxen.
On the casual side of things, though, the last thing the format needs is more fast mana. Moxen wouldn't be too bad, but everyone's used to them being banned and I don't their unbanning would add much to the format.
Do you really want me putting beta Moxen in Sen Triplets?
How is it better when a mox + land nets the exact same effect???
By legalizing moxen you now have ~5 additional ways to get to that 2. Secondly, by freeing moxen, you are essentially increasing the consistency of those decks, giving access to free colored mana. That argument doesn't hold water.
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Uh, what? Last I checked, Sol Ring costs 1. Sure, it puts you ahead mana wise, but the initial effect is identical. On top of that, you could keep a landless hand and still maintain tempo with Mox, not true for Sol Ring.
No reason to unban for a test drive. Look at Vintage, and that's all you need to know. The format is warped around Fast Mana. You are only adding 39 cards to what you'd play in Vintage decks, but combine that with the overall slower nature of EDH, the difference in what the Moxen will do to EDH is negligible at best. Beyond that, Vintage, and even legacy, is just a combination of already "broken" cards that are either severely undercosted(or free) or that cheat cards into play. All decks there are like that to some extent. EDH has "staples" like Cultivate the signets, among others, and those are cards that aren't played anywhere else but the kitchen table for the most part. They are fair, definitely not overpowered, except when you can play them turn-1, accelerate to 6 on turn 2(with basically all color combinations available at this point) and then drop any relevant Commander, and a couple cards in hand to boot. That's not even worst case scenario, as with redundancy comes less variance.
I mean, me too, but "super-cutthroat metagames" aren't exactly part of the RC banning philosophy, now, are they?
This point is moot because you're essentially just saying "If you have one of these and a land, it's better than the other one by itself."
This sounds like you've never played or even seen play of Vintage, and probably not Legacy either. Yes, fast mana is omnipresent, but beyond basically a selection of storm decks, decks have generally been cutting fast mana for spells over time
There's a solution to this that Duel Commander has done quite well: Ban Sol Ring and other fast mana to stop turn 1 nasty plays. It only need be Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Mishra's Workshop, and Ancient Tomb. One could also very reasonably add City of Traitors to that list.
I didn't say that. There's a big difference between what I said and what you are implying. You'd keep a hand containing a Mox + Land, you wouldn't a landless hand with sol Ring. Sounds simple, sure, but again, talking consistency of format built on presumed inconsistencies.
Uhm, no. So you're saying folks are cutting these Mox, Black Lotus, City of Traitors, Tolarian Academy, Gaes Cradle, Mishras Workshop, Lions Eye Diamond, for... what? Vintage is built around the accessibility of Fast Mana, and 90% of it is restricted to singles. Sure, Legacy isn't quite on the same level, but it's predicated on light-speed broken plays(SneakShow, LED Dredge, Storm, Omnishow, etc.). So, EDH should be the same thing? That's the only thing Mox do, speed up the game clock allowing for faster broken plays. Like I said, the difference being that Kodamas Reach won't ever be broken at turn 1 in Vintage/legacy, but is absolutely an incredible advantage in EDH. Increasing the consistency of those plays doesn't sound like a good, or smart idea.
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So, ban Fast Mana to unban Fast Mana? What? DC also has the moxen banned, and they won't ever be coming off that list, so this argument is moot.
I mean, you think people scream about inconsistencies now, let's try your idea and see how well that goes over. Sheesh.
That said, a single off-the-wall deck is not a good argument in favor of their unbanning. I think a far more realistic probability for more starting mana in that deck would be a full Spirit Guide cycle, though even those might be problematic to add to Legacy.
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Not exactly, more that the prevalence of restricted list cards in the average decklist has generally gone down over time, with more aggressive strategies taking the reins. In the case of Moxen in particular, Null Rod, Stony Silence, and the like have gotten much more popular, leading to an increase in decks which run fewer Moxen. Not to mention that EDH isn't a turn 1 format, and still wouldn't be with Moxen, and EDH's consistency is so much lower than Vintage that saying that the Moxen would make a catastrophic difference is overreacting. A significant difference? Possibly. A catastrophic difference? Probably not.
I'm saying to go one way or the other. Either ban Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, or unban the Moxen.
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Catastrophic is your word, not mine.
Nobody is cutting the cards I listed because of the cards you listed, they are only played because of how powerful the other are. It's fact. Proof is in the pudding, no?
I agree that banning Sol Ring/Crypt would be a step in the right direction, but it still doesn't make sense that if they are unbanned, to unban the mox. Again, you want to eliminate the consitincy that comes with Fast Mana, unless you can't, then you want to increase the consistency? Serious question, are you trolling? This seriously sounds like trolling at this point.
I don't want moxen unbanned. It isn't even about a logical argument - I can see logic behind unbanning them.
I think commander would be better without the fast mana. Even in less competitive metas, the person with the Sol Ring wins a huge proportion of games. Still, it is a double standard for having some fast mana in the format but not others.
I just think it would make my local commander scene untenable. There is not enough supply, and the moxen would become absurdly expensive. I am 100% opposed to unbanning cards that have such limited availability, especially if they can be ubiquitously played. Look at the tabernacle at pendrell vale. This card is only played in niche decks, yet costs over 1000$.
Unbanning moxen will hurt the format, especially the competitive multiplayer leagues.
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Nah, either way seems reasonable, as long as it's consistent. The best world would be banning Sol Ring and Mana Crypt and leaving Moxen banned, but the other world of unbanning it all also sounds good to me.
A meta shift does not have to be drastic to exist.
I'm looking for what I see as a measure of consistency in bannings, which to me is not there. I understand that based on format philosophy, that might not ever be there, but it doesn't hurt to try.
On the casual side of things, though, the last thing the format needs is more fast mana. Moxen wouldn't be too bad, but everyone's used to them being banned and I don't their unbanning would add much to the format.
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Maybe? I mean, people have brought up distinct points and banning Sol Ring looks to potentially be more of a lost cause than unbanning moxen...
This deck interests me. Will you email me a copy at sheldonDOTmeneryATgmailDOTcom?
Redundant effects have value, in that they increase both consistency and resiliency, but do not increase the power of an effect. Sure, something happening more often is good, but it is not stronger.
If the concern was consistency, banning Mana Crypt & Sol Ring would still be better, but I would not be nearly as strongly opposed to unbanning Moxen instead, and would grudgingly support it in the absence of the aforementioned bans.
Moxen do not just increase the frequency of turn 1 Sol Ring-esque plays. They are cumulative with it. Now you have turn 1 Sol Ring, Mox, Mox.
Also, the original Moxen are better than Mana Crypt & Sol Ring. This is not just on turn 1, it is on the turn you cast it. More, producing colored mana is not to be discounted, and often more valuable than producing two colorless mana.
If the banned list was a hypothetical "You may play up to two of the following: Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby, & Mox Emerald, I would remove Mana Crypt & Sol Ring from nearly every deck.
Do you really want me putting beta Moxen in Sen Triplets?
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