I actually argued for unbanning Coalition Victory, Sway of the Stars, Worldfire, and Biorhythm. I dont' think they add anything to the format but banning them isn't particularly useful since they aren't likely to see significant amounts of play. They cost way too much mana and effort to be actually decent combo cards.
Biorhythm would 100% see lots of play as a finisher, similar to craterhoof.
Especially with cyclonic rift. EOT rift into biorhythm for the almost completely unstoppable kill. The only other thing you'd need is enough creatures to feel safe from spot removal, and that's almost trivial.
Biorhythm-Rift would be rather strong but still you can much easier win with a bunch of other combos like Tooth and Nail, Hulk, etc. Biorhythm and Victory are outclassed in power even in less than top teir combo decks.
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I think the way the Command Zone works will keep Worldfire and Sway of the Stars banned for aslong as Commander is a thing.
Sway is going to need quite a meaty commander or one that will lock everyone out to necessarily end the game. Now, Worldfire will probably win the game, but there's tons of lower mana ways to end the game.
I don't see a problem with it since part of commander is making alliances or deals with other players. It is a similar vein as death by dragons, etc....
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I think the way the Command Zone works will keep Worldfire and Sway of the Stars banned for aslong as Commander is a thing.
Sway is going to need quite a meaty commander or one that will lock everyone out to necessarily end the game. Now, Worldfire will probably win the game, but there's tons of lower mana ways to end the game.
but...but...O-ring and Barren Glory DEMAND a new way to win lol
I don't see a problem with it since part of commander is making alliances or deals with other players. It is a similar vein as death by dragons, etc....
Trade Secrets turns a 4-player game into a 2-player game as soon as it resolves.
I think the way the Command Zone works will keep Worldfire and Sway of the Stars banned for aslong as Commander is a thing.
Sway is going to need quite a meaty commander or one that will lock everyone out to necessarily end the game. Now, Worldfire will probably win the game, but there's tons of lower mana ways to end the game.
Look at this guy pretending like Taniwha hasn't been in the game for over 20 years
Like others I wouldn't be surprised for Gifts Ungiven to hop off the list.
Taniwha being really good with it isn't exactly a reason to ban a card. There isn't really even any reason to play that card other than to combo. Nowdays, you can get an 8/8 trampler for 5 with no catch at all. Teferi is also useful outside of combo and also has obnoxious interactions.
Worldfire got a bit of a hasty ban if I recall correctly, in that it was only allowed to be played for two months before it got banned. Where as nowadays a card is given a much lengthier amount of time to be used to see it in use.
Depending on the commander's cost, it can easily be the difference between paying 6RRRR and 13RRRRRR. Not to mention what tax they have accumulated over the course of the game can easily bump this up from anywhere between 2 and 10 as we are now talking about difference of spending 12 to 30 mana to end the game. The cheapest commander who can end the game off a Worldfire is Zurgo Bellstriker and he is the only 1-cost that can because Norin the Wary can't do combat damage. From there its just 2 to 10 mana legendarys in the mono red section alone.
There is only two commanders I can even think of who get around its hefty mana cost and that is Jhoira of the Ghitu and Mizzix of the Izmagnus. The first of which, Jhoira, is much like a Purphoros in that if you don't disrupt their plans early on, you are going to get slammed in the early game. Mizzix, if not killed frequently, can easily make the Worldfire cost 1RRRR or just RRRR while they might cost 6-8 mana based on accumulated commander tax. Make no mistake though, both of these ladies have very powerful tools in their arsenals outside of just Worldfire that can easily be game-ending threats.
However its not a spell that just simply ends the game by itself. Everyone is at 1 health, no hand or permanents or graveyards. Unless a spell was suspended prior or floated mana was used to cast something like a commander, everyone is alive and it becomes a race to get that 1 damage in.
No, it doesn't end the game, but it does invalidate basically every decision made up until Worldfire resolves, just like Sway Of The Stars does. I think it would be legal if it didn't have the "Each player's life total becomes 1" in the text box.
No, it doesn't end the game, but it does invalidate basically every decision made up until Worldfire resolves, just like Sway Of The Stars does. I think it would be legal if it didn't have the "Each player's life total becomes 1" in the text box.
I always thought it was more the fact that it doesn't empty your mana pool, allowing you to float mana and recast your general that made it a snap ban. Aside from interacting poorly with the format (since it obviously wasn't designed with Commander in mind), it's a very symmetrical card which you otherwise wouldn't be able to cheat with.
Sway is an annoying game reset that works well with a number of cards to be straight up unfair, not just Taniwha but any O ring style card or slow blinker.
Worldfire is just bull*****. There is nothing about the card that leads to good games. you either combo it with suspend, slow blink, or o-ring cards, or simply float enough mana to cast your commander, and you win. Cheesey and dumb, but not on its own enough to get it banned unless it did so super consistently and did nothing else. Worldfire does other things, but unfortunately those things ruin games more effectively than comboing with it to win. Cast it without being able to take advantage of it to win immediately, and congrats on ruining the game and pissing off the table. Its now a game of pure luck as to who draws right. Maybe someone will get lucky, draw a few land, then draw a cheap creature and win quick, and by quick I mean 4-5 turns minimum while nobody else can do anything. Maybe 7 or 8 turns go by because nobody draws enough lands to play anything for that long, and then the reward is you get to watch the first person to cast something win. Or maybe, best case scenario, everyone ends up getting to their plays on the same turn and the game becomes a standoff with some actual game play, but it will still be disappointing. No, screw Worldfire, its the poster child for a big splashy spell that at first blush seems tailor made for commander because it costs 9 and has a wacky effect, but all it does is create games you'd rather forget. Its best case scenario, where it ruins the game the least, is when you combo with it to win. Yes, floating a few mana to play your commander and wreck face is the best case scenario. Well, maybe sticking Barren Glory under O-Ring then winning with it post Worldfire is the best case scenario, because at least you get to see a Barren Glory win. In any case, the thing most people cringe at when thinking about Worldfire is its least obnoxious use. That's why it should stay banned.
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No, it doesn't end the game, but it does invalidate basically every decision made up until Worldfire resolves, just like Sway Of The Stars does. I think it would be legal if it didn't have the "Each player's life total becomes 1" in the text box.
I always thought it was more the fact that it doesn't empty your mana pool, allowing you to float mana and recast your general that made it a snap ban. Aside from interacting poorly with the format (since it obviously wasn't designed with Commander in mind), it's a very symmetrical card which you otherwise wouldn't be able to cheat with.
I suppose even if it emptied your pool you could do something along the lines of Sizzle -> Quicken -> Worldfire.
No, it doesn't end the game, but it does invalidate basically every decision made up until Worldfire resolves, just like Sway Of The Stars does. I think it would be legal if it didn't have the "Each player's life total becomes 1" in the text box.
I always thought it was more the fact that it doesn't empty your mana pool, allowing you to float mana and recast your general that made it a snap ban. Aside from interacting poorly with the format (since it obviously wasn't designed with Commander in mind), it's a very symmetrical card which you otherwise wouldn't be able to cheat with.
I suppose even if it emptied your pool you could do something along the lines of Sizzle -> Quicken -> Worldfire.
That's still a 3 card combo at least, and I don't think anything gets banned for being part of a 3 card combo, or even multiple 3 card combos, let alone 13 mana ones. Without emptying the mana pool, it can be parts of several 2 card combos, or just throwing down a commander.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
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No, it doesn't end the game, but it does invalidate basically every decision made up until Worldfire resolves, just like Sway Of The Stars does. I think it would be legal if it didn't have the "Each player's life total becomes 1" in the text box.
I always thought it was more the fact that it doesn't empty your mana pool, allowing you to float mana and recast your general that made it a snap ban. Aside from interacting poorly with the format (since it obviously wasn't designed with Commander in mind), it's a very symmetrical card which you otherwise wouldn't be able to cheat with.
I suppose even if it emptied your pool you could do something along the lines of Sizzle -> Quicken -> Worldfire.
That's still a 3 card combo at least, and I don't think anything gets banned for being part of a 3 card combo, or even multiple 3 card combos, let alone 13 mana ones. Without emptying the mana pool, it can be parts of several 2 card combos, or just throwing down a commander.
Sure, I'm just saying emptying your mana pool doesn't necessarily turn a resolved Worldfire into a "fair" boardstate.
Keldon Marauders kills one opponent after Worldfire resolves. Outpost Siege in Dragons mode kills one opponent per creature you control when Worldfire resolves. Sludge Strider kills one opponent per other artifact you control when Worldfire resolves. Vela the Night-Clad wins the game when Worldfire resolves. Thragtusk leaves you with a 3/3 to win with over the next few turns. Soulgorger Orgg is bad, but it's basically an O-Ring for your life total. It doesn't eliminate anyone or win you the game, but being at 40 life while your opponents are all at 1 and nobody have a board or hand means you might as well have won.
No, it doesn't end the game, but it does invalidate basically every decision made up until Worldfire resolves, just like Sway Of The Stars does. I think it would be legal if it didn't have the "Each player's life total becomes 1" in the text box.
I always thought it was more the fact that it doesn't empty your mana pool, allowing you to float mana and recast your general that made it a snap ban. Aside from interacting poorly with the format (since it obviously wasn't designed with Commander in mind), it's a very symmetrical card which you otherwise wouldn't be able to cheat with.
I suppose even if it emptied your pool you could do something along the lines of Sizzle -> Quicken -> Worldfire.
That's still a 3 card combo at least, and I don't think anything gets banned for being part of a 3 card combo, or even multiple 3 card combos, let alone 13 mana ones. Without emptying the mana pool, it can be parts of several 2 card combos, or just throwing down a commander.
Sure, I'm just saying emptying your mana pool doesn't necessarily turn a resolved Worldfire into a "fair" boardstate.
Keldon Marauders kills one opponent after Worldfire resolves. Outpost Siege in Dragons mode kills one opponent per creature you control when Worldfire resolves. Sludge Strider kills one opponent per other artifact you control when Worldfire resolves. Vela the Night-Clad wins the game when Worldfire resolves. Thragtusk leaves you with a 3/3 to win with over the next few turns. Soulgorger Orgg is bad, but it's basically an O-Ring for your life total. It doesn't eliminate anyone or win you the game, but being at 40 life while your opponents are all at 1 and nobody have a board or hand means you might as well have won.
All very true, I think what I'm saying is that its one of the factors that push the card from being more borderline to being over the line. Of course, the real deal breaker is that its most "fair" use, just playing it like an Obliterate, is probably obnoxious and game ruining enough on its own to get it banned, and its additional ability to combo win with a bunch of cards is just icing on the cake.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think OneRing's original reply pretty much covers why it's banned. Wildfire easily creates an utterly miserable gamestate that might not be obvious at first sight.
my understanding is that the RC thinks players would get turned off the format if they were faced with a bunch of moxes and ancestral recall. I'm not so sure if that'd be true. Sure they're powerful cards, but aside from their monetary cost, it's not like they're going to warp the format that much.
i have no interest in busting out the power 9 and so on. Heck in my playgroup, i'm the only one who wheels; and it's probably the one card that's worth more than some of the other player's decks. but its not like i scare them away from the format, and they sure don't feel like they're being 'costed' out of the format either.
my understanding is that the RC thinks players would get turned off the format if they were faced with a bunch of moxes and ancestral recall. I'm not so sure if that'd be true. Sure they're powerful cards, but aside from their monetary cost, it's not like they're going to warp the format that much.
i have no interest in busting out the power 9 and so on. Heck in my playgroup, i'm the only one who wheels; and it's probably the one card that's worth more than some of the other player's decks. but its not like i scare them away from the format, and they sure don't feel like they're being 'costed' out of the format either.
Wheel of Fortune is relatively expensive, but there are a lot of similar effects that do not cost a lot of money.
But then when you look at Candelabra of Tawnos... when someone plays this card, it feels bad. It is crazy expensive, and I honestly feel like my opponent is playing with a card that I am not allowed to play. Luckily, it is a niche card.
I know people who would play moxen, ancestral, black lotus, time walk... 100%. Who would want to play against that?
If one person in your group gets these cards, then don't you feel like you need to in order to compete? These are extremely powerful cards that go into every deck. The people not playing the cards would definitely lose more games.
If price was not a factor, maybe. We would have to see. Many people already think that fast mana like Sol Ring should be banned, and I feel like unleashing moxen and Black Lotus would make games very lopsided. They should unban them online, since the prices there are not a factor, as a test.
The moxen have an additional problem of producing colored Mana, meaning that introducing them would boost the power of decks more for each color they play. Fast Mana also gets better the more of it you have access to, because you can more consistently get the fast starts. Making colored Mana and costing nothing also opens up some early turn plays that aren't available with the current rocks, spells that cost double color or multicolor turn 1. These aren't cards that are only nipped by PBE, but by too much Mana too fast.
Ancestral recall is just too much value for one Mana. It's a ridiculous card. Let's not even get into how easy it is to abuse with synergies, it's just way too much on its own.
Time walk is a bit different. On its own, it's pretty ridiculous, but casting it turn 2 isn't as crazy in commander as it is in 1v1 60 card. cEDH might have a problem on it's hands with that, but I'm not sure it would ruin casual games if that's all it did. Being so cheap on later turns is a bigger problem because it leaves more Mana for other plays and nets you more value, and costing 2 is very important as it opens up some combo potential. Even fair extra turn cards can be oppressive, so one that is as absurdly undercosted like this would be over the line.
Interestingly, the only one I'd be sort of ok with is Black Lotus. It would do a lot of damage in cEDH, but in casual the one shot nature just isn't as good in multiplayer as in 1v1. Rituals generally just aren't as good in this format unless you are comboing. Still, it's so good at what it does and has very strong synergies with commonly played cards that it would be borderline. Still, I think it ends up being more Mana Crypt level overall, worse over the course of the game because Mana crypt will net you more Mana, but much better the turn you play it because its 3 Mana vs 2 and colored vs colorless. I'd rate the explosivity as more important than the long term advantage in terms of raw power, and Mana crypt is the most borderline of the rocks (as in, if they were gonna ban a rock, it should be crypt). Still, if I was going to ask the RC to play test any of the banned power 9, it would be Lotus.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Biorhythm would 100% see lots of play as a finisher, similar to craterhoof.
Especially with cyclonic rift. EOT rift into biorhythm for the almost completely unstoppable kill. The only other thing you'd need is enough creatures to feel safe from spot removal, and that's almost trivial.
I 100% expect to see gifts ungiven unbanned shortly.
A painter's servant unban also seems likely.
There are very strong, philosophy centric arguments that show that neither of these two cards should be banned.
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Unlikely, since it encourages collusion.
I don't see a problem with it since part of commander is making alliances or deals with other players. It is a similar vein as death by dragons, etc....
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but...but...O-ring and Barren Glory DEMAND a new way to win lol
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Look at this guy pretending like Taniwha hasn't been in the game for over 20 years
Like others I wouldn't be surprised for Gifts Ungiven to hop off the list.
Depending on the commander's cost, it can easily be the difference between paying 6RRRR and 13RRRRRR. Not to mention what tax they have accumulated over the course of the game can easily bump this up from anywhere between 2 and 10 as we are now talking about difference of spending 12 to 30 mana to end the game. The cheapest commander who can end the game off a Worldfire is Zurgo Bellstriker and he is the only 1-cost that can because Norin the Wary can't do combat damage. From there its just 2 to 10 mana legendarys in the mono red section alone.
There is only two commanders I can even think of who get around its hefty mana cost and that is Jhoira of the Ghitu and Mizzix of the Izmagnus. The first of which, Jhoira, is much like a Purphoros in that if you don't disrupt their plans early on, you are going to get slammed in the early game. Mizzix, if not killed frequently, can easily make the Worldfire cost 1RRRR or just RRRR while they might cost 6-8 mana based on accumulated commander tax. Make no mistake though, both of these ladies have very powerful tools in their arsenals outside of just Worldfire that can easily be game-ending threats.
However its not a spell that just simply ends the game by itself. Everyone is at 1 health, no hand or permanents or graveyards. Unless a spell was suspended prior or floated mana was used to cast something like a commander, everyone is alive and it becomes a race to get that 1 damage in.
I always thought it was more the fact that it doesn't empty your mana pool, allowing you to float mana and recast your general that made it a snap ban. Aside from interacting poorly with the format (since it obviously wasn't designed with Commander in mind), it's a very symmetrical card which you otherwise wouldn't be able to cheat with.
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Worldfire is just bull*****. There is nothing about the card that leads to good games. you either combo it with suspend, slow blink, or o-ring cards, or simply float enough mana to cast your commander, and you win. Cheesey and dumb, but not on its own enough to get it banned unless it did so super consistently and did nothing else. Worldfire does other things, but unfortunately those things ruin games more effectively than comboing with it to win. Cast it without being able to take advantage of it to win immediately, and congrats on ruining the game and pissing off the table. Its now a game of pure luck as to who draws right. Maybe someone will get lucky, draw a few land, then draw a cheap creature and win quick, and by quick I mean 4-5 turns minimum while nobody else can do anything. Maybe 7 or 8 turns go by because nobody draws enough lands to play anything for that long, and then the reward is you get to watch the first person to cast something win. Or maybe, best case scenario, everyone ends up getting to their plays on the same turn and the game becomes a standoff with some actual game play, but it will still be disappointing. No, screw Worldfire, its the poster child for a big splashy spell that at first blush seems tailor made for commander because it costs 9 and has a wacky effect, but all it does is create games you'd rather forget. Its best case scenario, where it ruins the game the least, is when you combo with it to win. Yes, floating a few mana to play your commander and wreck face is the best case scenario. Well, maybe sticking Barren Glory under O-Ring then winning with it post Worldfire is the best case scenario, because at least you get to see a Barren Glory win. In any case, the thing most people cringe at when thinking about Worldfire is its least obnoxious use. That's why it should stay banned.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
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That's still a 3 card combo at least, and I don't think anything gets banned for being part of a 3 card combo, or even multiple 3 card combos, let alone 13 mana ones. Without emptying the mana pool, it can be parts of several 2 card combos, or just throwing down a commander.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
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Keldon Marauders kills one opponent after Worldfire resolves.
Outpost Siege in Dragons mode kills one opponent per creature you control when Worldfire resolves.
Sludge Strider kills one opponent per other artifact you control when Worldfire resolves.
Vela the Night-Clad wins the game when Worldfire resolves.
Thragtusk leaves you with a 3/3 to win with over the next few turns.
Soulgorger Orgg is bad, but it's basically an O-Ring for your life total. It doesn't eliminate anyone or win you the game, but being at 40 life while your opponents are all at 1 and nobody have a board or hand means you might as well have won.
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All very true, I think what I'm saying is that its one of the factors that push the card from being more borderline to being over the line. Of course, the real deal breaker is that its most "fair" use, just playing it like an Obliterate, is probably obnoxious and game ruining enough on its own to get it banned, and its additional ability to combo win with a bunch of cards is just icing on the cake.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
my understanding is that the RC thinks players would get turned off the format if they were faced with a bunch of moxes and ancestral recall. I'm not so sure if that'd be true. Sure they're powerful cards, but aside from their monetary cost, it's not like they're going to warp the format that much.
i have no interest in busting out the power 9 and so on. Heck in my playgroup, i'm the only one who wheels; and it's probably the one card that's worth more than some of the other player's decks. but its not like i scare them away from the format, and they sure don't feel like they're being 'costed' out of the format either.
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Timetwister is not banned
The other cards would be warping.
Wheel of Fortune is relatively expensive, but there are a lot of similar effects that do not cost a lot of money.
But then when you look at Candelabra of Tawnos... when someone plays this card, it feels bad. It is crazy expensive, and I honestly feel like my opponent is playing with a card that I am not allowed to play. Luckily, it is a niche card.
I know people who would play moxen, ancestral, black lotus, time walk... 100%. Who would want to play against that?
If one person in your group gets these cards, then don't you feel like you need to in order to compete? These are extremely powerful cards that go into every deck. The people not playing the cards would definitely lose more games.
If price was not a factor, maybe. We would have to see. Many people already think that fast mana like Sol Ring should be banned, and I feel like unleashing moxen and Black Lotus would make games very lopsided. They should unban them online, since the prices there are not a factor, as a test.
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Ancestral recall is just too much value for one Mana. It's a ridiculous card. Let's not even get into how easy it is to abuse with synergies, it's just way too much on its own.
Time walk is a bit different. On its own, it's pretty ridiculous, but casting it turn 2 isn't as crazy in commander as it is in 1v1 60 card. cEDH might have a problem on it's hands with that, but I'm not sure it would ruin casual games if that's all it did. Being so cheap on later turns is a bigger problem because it leaves more Mana for other plays and nets you more value, and costing 2 is very important as it opens up some combo potential. Even fair extra turn cards can be oppressive, so one that is as absurdly undercosted like this would be over the line.
Interestingly, the only one I'd be sort of ok with is Black Lotus. It would do a lot of damage in cEDH, but in casual the one shot nature just isn't as good in multiplayer as in 1v1. Rituals generally just aren't as good in this format unless you are comboing. Still, it's so good at what it does and has very strong synergies with commonly played cards that it would be borderline. Still, I think it ends up being more Mana Crypt level overall, worse over the course of the game because Mana crypt will net you more Mana, but much better the turn you play it because its 3 Mana vs 2 and colored vs colorless. I'd rate the explosivity as more important than the long term advantage in terms of raw power, and Mana crypt is the most borderline of the rocks (as in, if they were gonna ban a rock, it should be crypt). Still, if I was going to ask the RC to play test any of the banned power 9, it would be Lotus.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!