Both of these situations spell out that yes, this card can be powerful, but the fact that it takes numerous cards around it to be degenerate, does not make it ban worthy. Take Mycosynth Lattice for an example - by itself, it's kinda cute. But when you combine it with something like Vandalblast Overloaded, you just made a degenerate play. Should we ban the lattice in this case or should the table recognize the potential and deal with the threat?
My ultimate belief is in no banned list, but if we have a ban list, I would want lattice to be on it. Lattice, alongside enchanted evening, create some of the most stressful board states I can think of. Any player at any time can suddenly use their otherwise normal board wipe spells to also wipe all lands, and possibly lock out lands entirely. I do not think lattice has any place at a fun commander table, but casual players might think otherwise and mistakenly include it.
Some people love the card, others hate it. What are your thoughts? Should Mycosynth Lattice be banned? Why or why not?
It's not just the player of a card, in thus case Mycosynrh Lattice, to keep the game fun. It's everyone's responsibility. In Sheldon's example, I feel the player Overloading Vandalblast while there is a Lattice on the table is making the degenerate play, since they know the effect playing it will have. I run Lattice in my Padeem deck (alonggside darksteel forge yes) but purposefully did not include March of the Machines or Hurkyl's Recall to keep it from being degenerate.
It's self restraint that keeps it fun for everyone, not bankists.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
It's self restraint that keeps it fun for everyone, not bankists.
Which would be fine if not for the fact that Painter's Servant was banned almost exclusively for it's interaction with Iona, Shield of Emeria. Double standards much?
It's not just the player of a card, in thus case Mycosynrh Lattice, to keep the game fun. It's everyone's responsibility. In Sheldon's example, I feel the player Overloading Vandalblast while there is a Lattice on the table is making the degenerate play, since they know the effect playing it will have. I run Lattice in my Padeem deck (alonggside darksteel forge yes) but purposefully did not include March of the Machines or Hurkyl's Recall to keep it from being degenerate.
It's self restraint that keeps it fun for everyone, not bankists.
"Build casually, play competitively."
The Lattice player is always going to be the one enabling the broken plays. The Vandalblast player is right to take advantage of it.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Since I am quoted in the original post, I really don't need to expand too heavily on my opinion other than I use it in my artifact decks to make up for the inherent weakness of artifacts.
However, there is definitely merit in that Painter's Servant is banned for 2-card interactions and Lattice is not. PS has more 2-card interactions than Lattice, but I am a huge fan of more consistent rulings and this is definitely a glaring example of the lack of consistency.
Since I am quoted in the original post, I really don't need to expand too heavily on my opinion other than I use it in my artifact decks to make up for the inherent weakness of artifacts.
However, there is definitely merit in that Painter's Servant is banned for 2-card interactions and Lattice is not. PS has more 2-card interactions than Lattice, but I am a huge fan of more consistent rulings and this is definitely a glaring example of the lack of consistency.
Not every colour has the means to make Mycosynth Lattice worthwhile, but every colour has a way to make Painter's Servantvery worthwhile.
Not every colour has the means to make Mycosynth Lattice worthwhile, but every colour has a way to make Painter's Servantvery worthwhile.
The difference is that Mycosynth Lattice causes collateral damage way more easily than Painter's Servant. Bane of Progress, Shatterstorm, Vandalblast and other's like them are already fairly common cards (and for good reason). Nobody blindly plays Deathgrip or other color-hate cards.
That's the point. Nobody really cares about what stupid thing you can do when building with Painter's Servant. If you want to be a jerk, you can already be a jerk. Servant or not. The problem is when Player 1 plays Servant and Player 2 plays something that is innocuous on it's own but becomes super oppressive with a Servant in play. That's the real reason Painter's Servant is banned. The same problem applies to Mycosynth Lattice and Enchanted Evening, except more-so, because most players already play mass artifact/enchantment removal, but very few play color-hosers to accidentally combo with a PS.
I don't think stress in a game with a win condition is necessarily a bad thing. I want my opponents to push my deck and how I play into weird board states that come from the fact that this format is so wide and so multiplayer.
You realize that servant either makes Noxious Vapors worse or has no effect on it?
Everything you listed there is a 2-card combo to get an effect that we can already have in the game. I'm not sure you really understand what an oppressive combo actually is. Using Mycosynth Lattice + Shatterstorm to get an Apocalypse without discarding your hand is amazingly powerful.
Not really, blowing everything up and resetting the board to zero is a good play if the alternative is losing, and when Lattice is out that's usually the alternative.
Lattice really has many of the same problems as servant. It can, theoretically, be ran as a goofy effect, or with casual effects, but it is almost always a combo that screws with the game state. That isn't a reason to ban it though. The biggest argument against it is the Vandalblast argument, but that either means the Lattice player comboed with Vandalblast to win the game (so, what lattice always does), the Lattice player misplayed when trying to win and handed the win to the red player (so, same outcome Lattice typically produces, but for a different player), or someone feasted on a player using Lattice casually. Only the last scenario is problematic, but how often does that even come up, and is that worth banning the card? As much as I hate Lattice and the way it plays, I don't think its ban worthy. The decks that run it are still going to be cheesy without it, and banning it just nerfs them a bit while other, equally cheesy decks don't have anything done to them. Unban Servant too and see what happens, its probably safe, give it a probationary period like Worldgorger.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Some people love the card, others hate it. What are your thoughts? Should Mycosynth Lattice be banned? Why or why not?
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
It's self restraint that keeps it fun for everyone, not bankists.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Iona I can imagine being banned, as the nature of the format makes color hosing more powerfull than normal.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
"Build casually, play competitively."
The Lattice player is always going to be the one enabling the broken plays. The Vandalblast player is right to take advantage of it.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Karn, Silver Golem. Kiss your lands goodbye.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
However, there is definitely merit in that Painter's Servant is banned for 2-card interactions and Lattice is not. PS has more 2-card interactions than Lattice, but I am a huge fan of more consistent rulings and this is definitely a glaring example of the lack of consistency.
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RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Not every colour has the means to make Mycosynth Lattice worthwhile, but every colour has a way to make Painter's Servant very worthwhile.
Two of the main combo cards with Lattice are both colorless, those being Nevinyrral's Disk and Null Rod.
The thing about Painter's Servant is that it warps your deckbuilding choices in a way that all colours have access to. Noxious Vapors may be a niche card now, but with the Servant out, it becomes backbreaking. Wash Out becomes a better Upheaval. Animar, Soul of Elements becomes a better Progenitus. Reap becomes an instant-speed Praetor's Counsel.
There is no reason that card should be banned.
You realize that servant either makes Noxious Vapors worse or has no effect on it?
Everything you listed there is a 2-card combo to get an effect that we can already have in the game. I'm not sure you really understand what an oppressive combo actually is. Using Mycosynth Lattice + Shatterstorm to get an Apocalypse without discarding your hand is amazingly powerful.
Not really, blowing everything up and resetting the board to zero is a good play if the alternative is losing, and when Lattice is out that's usually the alternative.
Lattice really has many of the same problems as servant. It can, theoretically, be ran as a goofy effect, or with casual effects, but it is almost always a combo that screws with the game state. That isn't a reason to ban it though. The biggest argument against it is the Vandalblast argument, but that either means the Lattice player comboed with Vandalblast to win the game (so, what lattice always does), the Lattice player misplayed when trying to win and handed the win to the red player (so, same outcome Lattice typically produces, but for a different player), or someone feasted on a player using Lattice casually. Only the last scenario is problematic, but how often does that even come up, and is that worth banning the card? As much as I hate Lattice and the way it plays, I don't think its ban worthy. The decks that run it are still going to be cheesy without it, and banning it just nerfs them a bit while other, equally cheesy decks don't have anything done to them. Unban Servant too and see what happens, its probably safe, give it a probationary period like Worldgorger.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!