I am curious as to how the EDH Committee ban their cards. See, in order to ban some cards, they have to recognize that some cards are overpowered. Question is, do they play and realize 'Oh, this card is overpowered in EDH, let's check to see if we want it banned' OR players make enough noise in the forum to get EC's attention and then only they start looking at the card?
For me, I am still upset about the fact that they banned Prophet of Kruphix. I look at Magic articles, forums all over the internet and there are quite a few who cry wolf about PoK. Right now, I am guessing these people made enough noise to make the EC stand up and notice.
Rant: PoK is a fragile creature. It does not win games by its own. A mere Lightning Bolt can kill it. Yet, people are making so much noise just because they don't run enough spot removal. I am butthurt (yes, I admit). Now, my Momir deck lost its engine (thanks to the boys who cried wolf).
See, if the banning of 1 card immediately dismantles your entire engine, then perhaps that 1 card might've been a wee bit better than you make it out to be?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
See, if the banning of 1 card immediately dismantles your entire engine, then perhaps that 1 card might've been a wee bit better than you make it out to be?
Eeerrr.....
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Prophet wasn't really banned because of its power - not saying it isn't strong, on the contrary, it's a very good card, but there are much stronger cards in the format (*cough*) - it was banned because it wasn't fun. It centralised the game around it and resulted in whoever had one spending ages playing on everyone's turns. And it did this in all types of game - with something like Ad Nauseam, if it's brokenly strong in your deck, chances are your group are all playing with highly tuned decks so it's incredible power doesn't really warp the game. PoK on the other hand got dropped into any deck with GU, and made casual games all about either answering that one card or abusing it.
The committee bans based on knee-jerk reactions to whatever gives them the feelbads during their irl games and the howling of the loudest scrubs that spam them with messages over the internet, and chalk it up to a nebulous and undefinable concept called 'the spirit of EDH' and the supremely subjective 'fun'. The vast majority of players I've encountered think the banlist is a hilarious farce and that the format would be healthier if WotC took over so we would get some reason and consistency. Yes, they think this even in light of WotC's embarrassing mismanagement of Modern, the list is that bad. From the spikiest spike to the scrubiest scrub, everyone has beef with the EDH banlist and their concerns are always dismissed with the ever-frustrating and completely unreasonable suggestion to house-rule.
Good luck getting them to do anything that makes a lick of sense OP, especially unban your pet card
The committee bans based on knee-jerk reactions to whatever gives them the feelbads during their irl games and the howling of the loudest scrubs that spam them with messages over the internet, and chalk it up to a nebulous and undefinable concept called 'the spirit of EDH' and the supremely subjective 'fun'. The vast majority of players I've encountered think the banlist is a hilarious farce and that the format would be healthier if WotC took over so we would get some reason and consistency. Yes, they think this even in light of WotC's embarrassing mismanagement of Modern, the list is that bad. From the spikiest spike to the scrubiest scrub, everyone has beef with the EDH banlist and their concerns are always dismissed with the ever-frustrating and completely unreasonable suggestion to house-rule.
Good luck getting them to do anything that makes a lick of sense OP, especially unban your pet card
(and yet we still love the format anyways...)
I totally agree with you. However, may I know why using house rule is unreasonable? No doubt they still use this house rule as a blanket statement to anybody who disagree with their ban list.
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
The committee bans based on knee-jerk reactions to whatever gives them the feelbads during their irl games and the howling of the loudest scrubs that spam them with messages over the internet, and chalk it up to a nebulous and undefinable concept called 'the spirit of EDH' and the supremely subjective 'fun'. The vast majority of players I've encountered think the banlist is a hilarious farce and that the format would be healthier if WotC took over so we would get some reason and consistency. Yes, they think this even in light of WotC's embarrassing mismanagement of Modern, the list is that bad. From the spikiest spike to the scrubiest scrub, everyone has beef with the EDH banlist and their concerns are always dismissed with the ever-frustrating and completely unreasonable suggestion to house-rule.
Good luck getting them to do anything that makes a lick of sense OP, especially unban your pet card
(and yet we still love the format anyways...)
I totally agree with you. However, may I know why using house rule is unreasonable? No doubt they still use this house rule as a blanket statement to anybody who disagree with their ban list.
House rules work in stale groups that don't get any new blood. There are major feelbads for groups with constant new blood though when someone strolls up with their perfectly format-legal list and gets told "Oh you can't play X Y and Z here". Tends to be very much a negative factor for the growth of the game.
Now, house unbans are a bit easier; you can simply tell new players "BTW we have unbanned X Y and Z" and at least their deck won't be considered "illegal" by the local group. Getting a majority of your group to agree on a house unban however can be...trying.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Are you trying to ask "how does the RC manage the ban list", or do you just want to talk about the one card you're butthurt over (by your own admission"?
Are you trying to ask "how does the RC manage the ban list", or do you just want to talk about the one card you're butthurt over (by your own admission"?
Eerrrr.. a little bit or both.
How does EC or RC know which card to ban? By shepherds who cry wolf loud enough or by their playtesting?
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Really? Your complaining about one of the most powerful edh cards ever printed? Enabling infinite Venser lockdowns, the ability always have counterspell mana open. The ability to flash in myojins and other overpowered cards. You must be insane to thin its not that powerful. Dies to doomblade? Hardly, its in the colors that can easily make it untargetable. Easily indestructible with counterspells to protect its protections. The card is too good.
I honestly don't think you know what "cry wolf" means... It's making taking you seriously very hard.
Agreed. Your entire approach is that people suck at Magic and complain loudly about a perfectly fine card and then the RC reacts, or perhaps that the RC plays against a card, doesn't like it, and then bans it. I don't know what kind of response you're expecting, but I can guess that the RC will ignore this thread and not give you a direct response (which if you look in the general ban list you'll see that two of them were active here as of yesterday).
I honestly don't think you know what "cry wolf" means... It's making taking you seriously very hard.
Agreed. Your entire approach is that people suck at Magic and complain loudly about a perfectly fine card and then the RC reacts, or perhaps that the RC plays against a card, doesn't like it, and then bans it. I don't know what kind of response you're expecting, but I can guess that the RC will ignore this thread and not give you a direct response (which if you look in the general ban list you'll see that two of them were active here as of yesterday).
I don't expect any response from them (I don't even know they browse mtgsalvation). I just want to whether people who complain loudly makes the ec notice about a card or they do it through playtesting.
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
I honestly don't think you know what "cry wolf" means... It's making taking you seriously very hard.
English is not my strength. Sorry.
For future reference, saying people are crying wolf is saying that they are complaining about a non issue or making things up. You took a condescending tone , whether you intended to or not, and then implied that the RC is dumb enough to fall for people lying about a card. That you seem to be asking what goes in to the RCs decision to ban a card, when the RC has a detailed, multi point explanation on their website, makes it worse.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I was bummed when I lost Prophet from my decks, but I was also relieved I wouldn't have to face against it anymore, too. Prophet warped games in the extreme - it always became a race to see if anyone could kill Prophet before that player stomped the rest of the table.
You can accomplish basically the same thing as Prophet with a Seedborn Muse and a Winding Canyons, but that requires two cards. Putting both of them on one card (not to mention removing the activation cost) made the card overpowered. It was banned with good reason.
If complaints lead to banning, Deadeye Navigator would have received the axe years ago. My understanding was that the RC did a mix of player feedback and internal testing to make decisions, but their criteria is not "what is broken?", it is "what is unfun in a way that it will often accidentally take over/dominate/ruin games?" A player who uses Hermit Druid or Ad Nauseum tends to know precisely what they're doing and is playing in a high-power group that can handle the turn two "Singleton Vintage" combo kills. But players at more casual tables can jam a card like Biorhythm in their deck because "8 cost spells are fun!" and end up leading to feel-bad anticlimax games.
Primeval Titan and Prophet of Kruphix are a little different but similar - both cards offered such a devastating and overwhelming advantage if unanswered that casual games frequently became about who could resolve/protect/clone/steal those cards first. Prophet had the additional issue of slowing games to a crawl, as suddenly that player effectively gets to take N+1 turns, where N is the number of opponents in the game. That lead to them constantly responding, and also to analysis paralysis from their opponents (I can attack...but what if that guy flashes in Acidic Slime in response to blow up my sword and cause my creature to die to this other player?)
I played Prophet in every deck it was legal in for as long as it was legal and it was gross and dumb every time. I miss the power as a Simic player, but I know it was the right call.
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Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
If complaints lead to banning, Deadeye Navigator would have received the axe years ago. My understanding was that the RC did a mix of player feedback and internal testing to make decisions, but their criteria is not "what is broken?", it is "what is unfun in a way that it will often accidentally take over/dominate/ruin games?"
Heck, if complaints lead to banning, Sol Ring would have been banned most of a decade ago. It even violated PBtE at that point, being $20-30 that players had to spend. And heck, with the updated format philosophy, it's even more obvious that it violates the Warps the Format Strategically/Problematic Casual Omnipresence, in addition to Too Much Mana Too Quickly and Undesirable Game States. But banning off of a vision of the format doesn't have to be consistent.
If complaints lead to banning, Deadeye Navigator would have received the axe years ago. My understanding was that the RC did a mix of player feedback and internal testing to make decisions, but their criteria is not "what is broken?", it is "what is unfun in a way that it will often accidentally take over/dominate/ruin games?"
Heck, if complaints lead to banning, Sol Ring would have been banned most of a decade ago. It even violated PBtE at that point, being $20-30 that players had to spend. And heck, with the updated format philosophy, it's even more obvious that it violates the Warps the Format Strategically/Problematic Casual Omnipresence, in addition to Too Much Mana Too Quickly and Undesirable Game States. But banning off of a vision of the format doesn't have to be consistent.
The "Access" criteria has long struck me as silly. Mishra's Workshop and Imperial Recruiter aren't the kind of cards most people have realistic access too. Workshop is actually even less "attainable" than Library of Alexandria and that card is cited as being on the list for reasons of access. Gaea's Cradle has reached a point where most average folks can't possibly afford one unless they play gold-bordered, and other cards are climbing that direction like Doubling Season and Mana Crypt (which is at least finally down a fair bit). And that doesn't even mention the ABU duals; I've been playing since Saga (mostly casually and unwisely) and just recently finally came into my first ABU duals (Plateau and Savannah, both revised and played). That has always seemed totally arbitrary to me.
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Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
The "Access" criteria has long struck me as silly. Mishra's Workshop and Imperial Recruiter aren't the kind of cards most people have realistic access too. Workshop is actually even less "attainable" than Library of Alexandria and that card is cited as being on the list for reasons of access. Gaea's Cradle has reached a point where most average folks can't possibly afford one unless they play gold-bordered, and other cards are climbing that direction like Doubling Season and Mana Crypt (which is at least finally down a fair bit). And that doesn't even mention the ABU duals; I've been playing since Saga (mostly casually and unwisely) and just recently finally came into my first ABU duals (Plateau and Savannah, both revised and played). That has always seemed totally arbitrary to me.
Ubiquity is another element though. A rigorously enforced version of the rule would involve a chart of ubiquity and price, with a line at where the problem is. As such, even if a card is only 2 US$, it could be considered PbtE if it's in 99.99% of decks played. Now, if you take a privileged enough stance, no card is considered for PbtE unless it's at least, I don't know, 40 US$... Or even above 100 US$. But I don't remotely agree with that level of disdain for people who are less well off. Personally, I'd aim for the rigorous version, but the function might be more of a curve, that plateaus in regards to price once ubiquity is higher than a certain point, than a line.
Before the commander products I'd have agreed about Sol Ring, but they are never going to ban a $2 card that many players have multiple copies of, and that you are basically guaranteed to have access to if you buy a precon. Its about as noob accessible as a card can be, simply because it gets constant reprints in products designed to be an introduction to the format.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
For me, I am still upset about the fact that they banned Prophet of Kruphix. I look at Magic articles, forums all over the internet and there are quite a few who cry wolf about PoK. Right now, I am guessing these people made enough noise to make the EC stand up and notice.
Rant: PoK is a fragile creature. It does not win games by its own. A mere Lightning Bolt can kill it. Yet, people are making so much noise just because they don't run enough spot removal. I am butthurt (yes, I admit). Now, my Momir deck lost its engine (thanks to the boys who cried wolf).
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Eeerrr.....
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Good luck getting them to do anything that makes a lick of sense OP, especially unban your pet card
(and yet we still love the format anyways...)
Anyway, tutors should be banned in EDH. That would crimp OP's Momir deck a lil' more, I think.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I totally agree with you. However, may I know why using house rule is unreasonable? No doubt they still use this house rule as a blanket statement to anybody who disagree with their ban list.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
House rules work in stale groups that don't get any new blood. There are major feelbads for groups with constant new blood though when someone strolls up with their perfectly format-legal list and gets told "Oh you can't play X Y and Z here". Tends to be very much a negative factor for the growth of the game.
Now, house unbans are a bit easier; you can simply tell new players "BTW we have unbanned X Y and Z" and at least their deck won't be considered "illegal" by the local group. Getting a majority of your group to agree on a house unban however can be...trying.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Eerrrr.. a little bit or both.
How does EC or RC know which card to ban? By shepherds who cry wolf loud enough or by their playtesting?
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Agreed. Your entire approach is that people suck at Magic and complain loudly about a perfectly fine card and then the RC reacts, or perhaps that the RC plays against a card, doesn't like it, and then bans it. I don't know what kind of response you're expecting, but I can guess that the RC will ignore this thread and not give you a direct response (which if you look in the general ban list you'll see that two of them were active here as of yesterday).
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I don't expect any response from them (I don't even know they browse mtgsalvation). I just want to whether people who complain loudly makes the ec notice about a card or they do it through playtesting.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
English is not my strength. Sorry.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
For future reference, saying people are crying wolf is saying that they are complaining about a non issue or making things up. You took a condescending tone , whether you intended to or not, and then implied that the RC is dumb enough to fall for people lying about a card. That you seem to be asking what goes in to the RCs decision to ban a card, when the RC has a detailed, multi point explanation on their website, makes it worse.
Here, http://forum.mtgcommander.net/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12254
There's your answer
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
You can accomplish basically the same thing as Prophet with a Seedborn Muse and a Winding Canyons, but that requires two cards. Putting both of them on one card (not to mention removing the activation cost) made the card overpowered. It was banned with good reason.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
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ManabaseCrafter
Primeval Titan and Prophet of Kruphix are a little different but similar - both cards offered such a devastating and overwhelming advantage if unanswered that casual games frequently became about who could resolve/protect/clone/steal those cards first. Prophet had the additional issue of slowing games to a crawl, as suddenly that player effectively gets to take N+1 turns, where N is the number of opponents in the game. That lead to them constantly responding, and also to analysis paralysis from their opponents (I can attack...but what if that guy flashes in Acidic Slime in response to blow up my sword and cause my creature to die to this other player?)
I played Prophet in every deck it was legal in for as long as it was legal and it was gross and dumb every time. I miss the power as a Simic player, but I know it was the right call.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Heck, if complaints lead to banning, Sol Ring would have been banned most of a decade ago. It even violated PBtE at that point, being $20-30 that players had to spend. And heck, with the updated format philosophy, it's even more obvious that it violates the Warps the Format Strategically/Problematic Casual Omnipresence, in addition to Too Much Mana Too Quickly and Undesirable Game States. But banning off of a vision of the format doesn't have to be consistent.
The "Access" criteria has long struck me as silly. Mishra's Workshop and Imperial Recruiter aren't the kind of cards most people have realistic access too. Workshop is actually even less "attainable" than Library of Alexandria and that card is cited as being on the list for reasons of access. Gaea's Cradle has reached a point where most average folks can't possibly afford one unless they play gold-bordered, and other cards are climbing that direction like Doubling Season and Mana Crypt (which is at least finally down a fair bit). And that doesn't even mention the ABU duals; I've been playing since Saga (mostly casually and unwisely) and just recently finally came into my first ABU duals (Plateau and Savannah, both revised and played). That has always seemed totally arbitrary to me.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Ubiquity is another element though. A rigorously enforced version of the rule would involve a chart of ubiquity and price, with a line at where the problem is. As such, even if a card is only 2 US$, it could be considered PbtE if it's in 99.99% of decks played. Now, if you take a privileged enough stance, no card is considered for PbtE unless it's at least, I don't know, 40 US$... Or even above 100 US$. But I don't remotely agree with that level of disdain for people who are less well off. Personally, I'd aim for the rigorous version, but the function might be more of a curve, that plateaus in regards to price once ubiquity is higher than a certain point, than a line.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!