Before the commander products I'd have agreed about Sol Ring, but they are never going to ban a $2 card that many players have multiple copies of, and that you are basically guaranteed to have access to if you buy a precon. Its about as noob accessible as a card can be, simply because it gets constant reprints in products designed to be an introduction to the format.
Huh. I guess everyone is required to pay $35+ for a precon to get into the format now... Well, it was fun while it lasted.
I don't think that the RC is likely to ban Sol Ring, unfortunately, but I don't agree that the card is "about as noob accessible as a card can be." Heck, there's plenty of players out there who play EDH with whatever Standard-legal cards they opened in packs.
Before the commander products I'd have agreed about Sol Ring, but they are never going to ban a $2 card that many players have multiple copies of, and that you are basically guaranteed to have access to if you buy a precon. Its about as noob accessible as a card can be, simply because it gets constant reprints in products designed to be an introduction to the format.
Huh. I guess everyone is required to pay $35+ for a precon to get into the format now... Well, it was fun while it lasted.
I don't think that the RC is likely to ban Sol Ring, unfortunately, but I don't agree that the card is "about as noob accessible as a card can be." Heck, there's plenty of players out there who play EDH with whatever Standard-legal cards they opened in packs.
Or, you know, they pay $2 to any random vendor for their Sol Ring. It's stupidly easy to come accross nowadays.
Anyway, the RC has stated they're not likely to use the Barrier to Entry criterium anymore. But do keep in mind that those cards that ARE banned for that reason, when unbanned, are likely to shoot up to 4x what they are worth now because they'd be good for a LOT of EDH decks. As of now, most of those cards can only be played as a 1-off in Vintage. Add them to the EDH pool which has a lot more players than Vintage and hoo lawdy...
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Sorry, I missed the memo. When/Where did the RC mention this?
Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Because it's a non-competitive format we don't want players to feel as though they need to spend a great deal of money to be able to play. It is not sufficient for a card to simply be expensive—expected ubiquity and the availability of suitable replacements are also considered. This rule is mostly invoked for cards fifteen or more years out of print and is unlikely to impact the list further.
Sorry, I missed the memo. When/Where did the RC mention this?
Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Because it's a non-competitive format we don't want players to feel as though they need to spend a great deal of money to be able to play. It is not sufficient for a card to simply be expensive—expected ubiquity and the availability of suitable replacements are also considered. This rule is mostly invoked for cards fifteen or more years out of print and is unlikely to impact the list further.
Zygous got to the link before I did. Yes, we're unlikely to invoke this one in the future, but it's still applicable to cards which currently exist.
And speaking of not likely (and props to the mod for handing out the trolling warning), we're pretty not likely to listen to you if you're just here to insult us or if you think that cards get banned because we lost to them in our local games.
Zygous got to the link before I did. Yes, we're unlikely to invoke this one in the future, but it's still applicable to cards which currently exist.
And speaking of not likely (and props to the mod for handing out the trolling warning), we're pretty not likely to listen to you if you're just here to insult us or if you think that cards get banned because we lost to them in our local games.
What, you mean that WASN'T the reason Griselbrand got banned? Colour me shocked. Shocked, I say!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Before the commander products I'd have agreed about Sol Ring, but they are never going to ban a $2 card that many players have multiple copies of, and that you are basically guaranteed to have access to if you buy a precon. Its about as noob accessible as a card can be, simply because it gets constant reprints in products designed to be an introduction to the format.
Huh. I guess everyone is required to pay $35+ for a precon to get into the format now... Well, it was fun while it lasted.
I don't think that the RC is likely to ban Sol Ring, unfortunately, but I don't agree that the card is "about as noob accessible as a card can be." Heck, there's plenty of players out there who play EDH with whatever Standard-legal cards they opened in packs.
Or, you know, they pay $2 to any random vendor for their Sol Ring. It's stupidly easy to come accross nowadays.
Anyway, the RC has stated they're not likely to use the Barrier to Entry criterium anymore. But do keep in mind that those cards that ARE banned for that reason, when unbanned, are likely to shoot up to 4x what they are worth now because they'd be good for a LOT of EDH decks. As of now, most of those cards can only be played as a 1-off in Vintage. Add them to the EDH pool which has a lot more players than Vintage and hoo lawdy...
There are people out there who don't want to spend more than about $20 on a deck. So if, say, five of these $2 cards are easy and seem mostly necessary to many, that is half that person's budget right there.
Zygous got to the link before I did. Yes, we're unlikely to invoke this one in the future, but it's still applicable to cards which currently exist.
And speaking of not likely (and props to the mod for handing out the trolling warning), we're pretty not likely to listen to you if you're just here to insult us or if you think that cards get banned because we lost to them in our local games.
What, you mean that WASN'T the reason Griselbrand got banned? Colour me shocked. Shocked, I say!
Okay, I admit it. I played Griselbrand once, drew myself down to five, and then someone Lava Axe'd me.
Before the commander products I'd have agreed about Sol Ring, but they are never going to ban a $2 card that many players have multiple copies of, and that you are basically guaranteed to have access to if you buy a precon. Its about as noob accessible as a card can be, simply because it gets constant reprints in products designed to be an introduction to the format.
Huh. I guess everyone is required to pay $35+ for a precon to get into the format now... Well, it was fun while it lasted.
I don't think that the RC is likely to ban Sol Ring, unfortunately, but I don't agree that the card is "about as noob accessible as a card can be." Heck, there's plenty of players out there who play EDH with whatever Standard-legal cards they opened in packs.
Or, you know, they pay $2 to any random vendor for their Sol Ring. It's stupidly easy to come accross nowadays.
Anyway, the RC has stated they're not likely to use the Barrier to Entry criterium anymore. But do keep in mind that those cards that ARE banned for that reason, when unbanned, are likely to shoot up to 4x what they are worth now because they'd be good for a LOT of EDH decks. As of now, most of those cards can only be played as a 1-off in Vintage. Add them to the EDH pool which has a lot more players than Vintage and hoo lawdy...
There are people out there who don't want to spend more than about $20 on a deck. So if, say, five of these $2 cards are easy and seem mostly necessary to many, that is half that person's budget right there.
OK, now you are getting ridiculous. Sorry, you don't get to have an optimized deck for $20. Sol Ring makes all decks better, but you don't need it to win. It isn't an integral part of any deck, its an upgrade over similar, cheaper cards. $20 isn't a whole lot to work with in the first place, so most likely (really, almost certainly) you are already replacing optimal cards with sub optimal substitutes, so you shouldn't be angry that you can't run Sol Ring over something like Pristine Talisman. That's just the downside of running a budget deck, sorry. Of course, one neat thing about Sol Ring is that it can go in any deck. Oh yes, that means that its a card that, no matter what you are building, you know you will be forgoing if you go as budget as you possibly can, but that also means that it is, in reality, a one time investment of $2 that can go in literally every deck you build. I'd rather spend $2 on a card I can use in every deck I own, or that I can use in my next deck if this one doesn't work out, than $2 on a deck specific card. Your argument relies on the player in question intending to build exactly one $20 deck. If the player has other decks, or plans on ever building another deck, Sol Ring is a bargain.
I used the precons as an example because they are an easy way for players to get into the format, and many players do in fact get into the format by buying a precon, because its a little more than half the price of a new video game, and you get a deck that has a coherent strategy and can hold its own at most multiplayer tables. I didn't because I started playing before the precons existed and already had a large collection when I started playing EDH, but if a less enfranchised player asked me for advice on getting into the format I would tell them to pick up a precon that they like and tweak from there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I didn't because I started playing before the precons existed and already had a large collection when I started playing EDH, but if a less enfranchised player asked me for advice on getting into the format I would tell them to pick up a precon that they like and tweak from there.
Same in terms of starting. For me it really depends on how experienced the player is otherwise, how much they want to spend, how interested they are in the format... If the answers to all of those are in the positive direction, I steer away from precons. I'd generally suggest a precon only if the player is right around that $40 mark for how much they want to spend, AND they are inexperienced, AND they aren't extremely interested in the format.
Zygous got to the link before I did. Yes, we're unlikely to invoke this one in the future, but it's still applicable to cards which currently exist.
And speaking of not likely (and props to the mod for handing out the trolling warning), we're pretty not likely to listen to you if you're just here to insult us or if you think that cards get banned because we lost to them in our local games.
What, you mean that WASN'T the reason Griselbrand got banned? Colour me shocked. Shocked, I say!
Okay, I admit it. I played Griselbrand once, drew myself down to five, and then someone Lava Axe'd me.
Then you banned the wrong card. Ban Lava Axe - it's OP!
I think I'm going to add "optimized" to the list of words like "balance" that have vague definitions but people use anyway.
I've always interpreted "optimized" as that point where you are consciously swapping out guild gates for duals and a more flavorful card for its more powerful counterpart. Essentially, an optimized build won't have self-imposed creative restrictions nor budgetary constraints in most instsnces.
I think I'm going to add "optimized" to the list of words like "balance" that have vague definitions but people use anyway.
I've always interpreted "optimized" as that point where you are consciously swapping out guild gates for duals and a more flavorful card for its more powerful counterpart. Essentially, an optimized build won't have self-imposed creative restrictions nor budgetary constraints in most instsnces.
Pretty much this. Tuned to win, every choice made to maximize the power and consistency of the deck. No considerations given to flavor, budget, or a card being more subjectively fun as judged by the owner (for any reason other than "this card is fun because its the best at what it does and that wins me games"). Sol Ring just happens to be the easiest example of a choice made to optimize a deck, as it makes every deck better, is widely available, and is pretty cheap, so its an optimization that gets made quite often, even in builds that aren't trying to be completely optimized, because the opportunity cost is so low. If you are going to include any artifact ramp at all, Sol Ring should be the first choice (well, Crypt is arguably better, but that's a separate discussion). Sol Ring is the sort of card that makes all decks better because of how good it is and how easy it is to add to any deck, but the amount by which it makes your deck better is relatively minor compared to other powerhouse cards in the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Huh. I guess everyone is required to pay $35+ for a precon to get into the format now... Well, it was fun while it lasted.
I don't think that the RC is likely to ban Sol Ring, unfortunately, but I don't agree that the card is "about as noob accessible as a card can be." Heck, there's plenty of players out there who play EDH with whatever Standard-legal cards they opened in packs.
Or, you know, they pay $2 to any random vendor for their Sol Ring. It's stupidly easy to come accross nowadays.
Anyway, the RC has stated they're not likely to use the Barrier to Entry criterium anymore. But do keep in mind that those cards that ARE banned for that reason, when unbanned, are likely to shoot up to 4x what they are worth now because they'd be good for a LOT of EDH decks. As of now, most of those cards can only be played as a 1-off in Vintage. Add them to the EDH pool which has a lot more players than Vintage and hoo lawdy...
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/commander/24889-Commander-Official-Banned-List-And-Format-Philosophy.html
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
And speaking of not likely (and props to the mod for handing out the trolling warning), we're pretty not likely to listen to you if you're just here to insult us or if you think that cards get banned because we lost to them in our local games.
What, you mean that WASN'T the reason Griselbrand got banned? Colour me shocked. Shocked, I say!
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
There are people out there who don't want to spend more than about $20 on a deck. So if, say, five of these $2 cards are easy and seem mostly necessary to many, that is half that person's budget right there.
Okay, I admit it. I played Griselbrand once, drew myself down to five, and then someone Lava Axe'd me.
OK, now you are getting ridiculous. Sorry, you don't get to have an optimized deck for $20. Sol Ring makes all decks better, but you don't need it to win. It isn't an integral part of any deck, its an upgrade over similar, cheaper cards. $20 isn't a whole lot to work with in the first place, so most likely (really, almost certainly) you are already replacing optimal cards with sub optimal substitutes, so you shouldn't be angry that you can't run Sol Ring over something like Pristine Talisman. That's just the downside of running a budget deck, sorry. Of course, one neat thing about Sol Ring is that it can go in any deck. Oh yes, that means that its a card that, no matter what you are building, you know you will be forgoing if you go as budget as you possibly can, but that also means that it is, in reality, a one time investment of $2 that can go in literally every deck you build. I'd rather spend $2 on a card I can use in every deck I own, or that I can use in my next deck if this one doesn't work out, than $2 on a deck specific card. Your argument relies on the player in question intending to build exactly one $20 deck. If the player has other decks, or plans on ever building another deck, Sol Ring is a bargain.
I used the precons as an example because they are an easy way for players to get into the format, and many players do in fact get into the format by buying a precon, because its a little more than half the price of a new video game, and you get a deck that has a coherent strategy and can hold its own at most multiplayer tables. I didn't because I started playing before the precons existed and already had a large collection when I started playing EDH, but if a less enfranchised player asked me for advice on getting into the format I would tell them to pick up a precon that they like and tweak from there.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Same in terms of starting. For me it really depends on how experienced the player is otherwise, how much they want to spend, how interested they are in the format... If the answers to all of those are in the positive direction, I steer away from precons. I'd generally suggest a precon only if the player is right around that $40 mark for how much they want to spend, AND they are inexperienced, AND they aren't extremely interested in the format.
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I've always interpreted "optimized" as that point where you are consciously swapping out guild gates for duals and a more flavorful card for its more powerful counterpart. Essentially, an optimized build won't have self-imposed creative restrictions nor budgetary constraints in most instsnces.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Pretty much this. Tuned to win, every choice made to maximize the power and consistency of the deck. No considerations given to flavor, budget, or a card being more subjectively fun as judged by the owner (for any reason other than "this card is fun because its the best at what it does and that wins me games"). Sol Ring just happens to be the easiest example of a choice made to optimize a deck, as it makes every deck better, is widely available, and is pretty cheap, so its an optimization that gets made quite often, even in builds that aren't trying to be completely optimized, because the opportunity cost is so low. If you are going to include any artifact ramp at all, Sol Ring should be the first choice (well, Crypt is arguably better, but that's a separate discussion). Sol Ring is the sort of card that makes all decks better because of how good it is and how easy it is to add to any deck, but the amount by which it makes your deck better is relatively minor compared to other powerhouse cards in the format.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Pretty sure you mean Island, bro. How long will the RC ignore our pleas?
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)