I think your fears/suspicious are more warranted and applicable to Channel instead of Fastbond. Unlike many people here, I legitimately believe every card on the ban list should be tested, regardless of 20+ years of MTG existing and some theory behind that being harmful. Humanity didn't learn how to do open-heart surgery, go to the moon, or fly planes without trying and testing, regardless of the dangers associated with each. (Note: dorky examples, but my point is you need to try stuff and not 'fear monger' it).
And if WotC prints:
1
Instant
Win the game.
Does that need to be tested? At what point does logic dictate that we can safely stop considering obviously unfair cards? Magic players have collectively tested fast mana over 20 years, and the result is, unsurprisingly, that it's broken. Been there, done that, lived through Urza's block, etc. It's not fear mongering, it's explaining the history of the game to people who've clearly forgotten how stupid early Magic was.
So your opening hand is very specifically: Three Misc lands, a Fetchland, Fastbond, Crucible of Worlds, and Tooth and Nail. Holy God Hand, Batman! That's very specific.
I think your fears/suspicious are more warranted and applicable to Channel instead of Fastbond. Unlike many people here, I legitimately believe every card on the ban list should be tested, regardless of 20+ years of MTG existing and some theory behind that being harmful. Humanity didn't learn how to do open-heart surgery, go to the moon, or fly planes without trying and testing, regardless of the dangers associated with each. (Note: dorky examples, but my point is you need to try stuff and not 'fear monger' it).
And if WotC prints:
1
Instant
Win the game.
Does that need to be tested? At what point does logic dictate that we can safely stop considering obviously unfair cards? Magic players have collectively tested fast mana over 20 years, and the result is, unsurprisingly, that it's broken. Been there, done that, lived through Urza's block, etc. It's not fear mongering, it's explaining the history of the game to people who've clearly forgotten how stupid early Magic was.
Can you please do me a favor and be rational with your argument? That example is preposterous and you know it. It's really hard to have a constructive conversation when you present something like that. Honestly, if wizards printed something like that, I would liquidate my entire collection to recover the $$$ before it all tanks because they killed the game, so I wouldn't care about the ramifications of that card existing.
But that isn't the conversation we're trying to have - I agree fast mana is a problem, but this format has done little to try to curb the major problem-child cards and has encouraged their use, so why not try to examine the next step? If this helps prove fast mana is such an issue, wouldn't we think to look a step deeper at the whole issue, or am I just being naive to think that would ever happen?
Osi already said it, but your example implies a 'god draw' type hand that the banlist can't stop from happening with unbanned cards today. I stand by saying a card shouldn't be banned because of the potential perfect draws to make it abusable.
I think your fears/suspicious are more warranted and applicable to Channel instead of Fastbond. Unlike many people here, I legitimately believe every card on the ban list should be tested, regardless of 20+ years of MTG existing and some theory behind that being harmful. Humanity didn't learn how to do open-heart surgery, go to the moon, or fly planes without trying and testing, regardless of the dangers associated with each. (Note: dorky examples, but my point is you need to try stuff and not 'fear monger' it).
And if WotC prints:
1
Instant
Win the game.
Does that need to be tested? At what point does logic dictate that we can safely stop considering obviously unfair cards? Magic players have collectively tested fast mana over 20 years, and the result is, unsurprisingly, that it's broken. Been there, done that, lived through Urza's block, etc. It's not fear mongering, it's explaining the history of the game to people who've clearly forgotten how stupid early Magic was.
Can you please do me a favor and be rational with your argument? That example is preposterous and you know it. It's really hard to have a constructive conversation when you present something like that. Honestly, if wizards printed something like that, I would liquidate my entire collection to recover the $$$ before it all tanks because they killed the game, so I wouldn't care about the ramifications of that card existing.
But that isn't the conversation we're trying to have - I agree fast mana is a problem, but this format has done little to try to curb the major problem-child cards and has encouraged their use, so why not try to examine the next step? If this helps prove fast mana is such an issue, wouldn't we think to look a step deeper at the whole issue, or am I just being naive to think that would ever happen?
Osi already said it, but your example implies a 'god draw' type hand that the banlist can't stop from happening with unbanned cards today. I stand by saying a card shouldn't be banned because of the potential perfect draws to make it abusable.
But you know what's not "God Hand", Fetch, Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Vault/Insert Your favorite broken Rock, Crucible, Fast Bond. That's 3 non-land cards, not exactly "Christmas Land". Then some Commander is cast, like Damia, Sage of Stone.
Oh, but wait, "Christmas land" only exists in the arguments against the card, because I'm sure it's reasonable that some player has removal/counter at the ready. Well, under those circumstances, the controlling player would have answers to that as well, because logical folk only go big if they have protection in hand.
Seriously, this card doesn't need "Christmas Land" to be broken. Fast Bond into Horn of Greed, not exactly difficult to land that early. Or how about late, Fast Bond is Yawgmoths Bargain with HoG. I know, I know, you'll argue that something will be destroyed/exiled/answered.
But you know what's not "God Hand", Fetch, Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Vault/Insert Your favorite broken Rock, Crucible, Fast Bond. That's 3 non-land cards, not exactly "Christmas Land". Then some Commander is cast, like Damia, Sage of Stone.
Okay, so your hand is a fetch, Sol Ring, Crucible, and Fastbond? And you've mulliganned down to 4? Or are you saying that is in addition to some random other cards? Because that's still 4 specific cards. Even if you're running a 5 color deck (very specific) with all 10 fetches, 5 mana rocks that serve this purpose, and, say, 30 other lands, to be generous, the chance of getting your exact described hand is still going to be rather low (Read: at least less than 1 in 600, if not much worse).
When your deck contains almost 40 lands, requiring four of them and two specific cards isn't really a godhand. And maybe I missed it but has anyone addressed the "interacts poorly with the format (higher life total negates the drawback)" and "too much mana too quickly" aspect that I brought up earlier?
Honestly if the reasoning to unban Fastbond is to "Demonstrate just how broken fast mana is", then I don't even know what to say. It's like putting out a fire by throwing a few lit matches onto it.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Fastbond is easily one of the strongest mana accelerants that is available in eternal formats. I think the RC realizes they can't ban all of the early game mana acceleration into wins, and that there are people who just enjoy those types of games. But they can get rid of the worst offenders to at least drop the consistency of those decks.
I can tell you, and speak for a lot of my friends on this, if EDH became a format of turn 6 or earlier wins all the time, then we would definitely lose interest and certainly not want to play in shops anymore.
Cards like Fastbond and Tolarian Academy can help drive the format in that direction. I'd prefer they didn't get unbanned.
But you know what's not "God Hand", Fetch, Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Vault/Insert Your favorite broken Rock, Crucible, Fast Bond. That's 3 non-land cards, not exactly "Christmas Land". Then some Commander is cast, like Damia, Sage of Stone.
Okay, so your hand is a fetch, Sol Ring, Crucible, and Fastbond? And you've mulliganned down to 4? Or are you saying that is in addition to some random other cards? Because that's still 4 specific cards. Even if you're running a 5 color deck (very specific) with all 10 fetches, 5 mana rocks that serve this purpose, and, say, 30 other lands, to be generous, the chance of getting your exact described hand is still going to be rather low (Read: at least less than 1 in 600, if not much worse).
Is the "Having Removal at the Ready" not already too specific? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
4 cards, throw in Tutors, and it isn't all to unreasonable to see that assembled by turn 2 on the play.
I'll echo the above statement, cards like these will just continue to drive the turn count down. Why would you want to spend hours on deckbuilding a 100-card singleton deck, just to play it for ~30 minutes at a time? Thats the most unappealing thing about competetive formats. Spend a couple hours crafting a deck, just to play it for ~4 turns.
Cryogen is also right, this card nails 2 ban criteria, which is more than enough to keep it where it is.
I understand my recent posts have been snarky, but let's be real with ourselves. This is a card that should be discussed between individual playgroups, and not one that should be suggested to come off to the universal playerbase.
Can you please do me a favor and be rational with your argument?
You first. You're arguing two different points, neither of which makes any sense. There's the "we have to test every card for fairness, regardless of how obviously broken it looks" angle, which apparently only applies to cards you say it does, not hypothetical ones I suggest. And then the "fast mana is already a problem, let's add more of it" which... still sounds like a Bond villain plan to be honest.
I agree with you as well that fast mana is a problem. The next step isn't to unban freakin' Fastbond, though. It's to ban Ring, Vault and Crypt like the sane people we are.
Fastbond is just another way to enable T1 kills and early game degeneracy. Being able to have a board presence or outright kill people before someone can play their first land is the definition of unfun. While I do love degenerate combos, Fastbond gives nothing of real value to the format.
I've been noticing a number of posts that could easily be misinterpreted as trolling. So please take a step back if you think you might be more sparky than intended so the staff doesn't have to step in later.
When your deck contains almost 40 lands, requiring four of them and two specific cards isn't really a godhand. And maybe I missed it but has anyone addressed the "interacts poorly with the format (higher life total negates the drawback)" and "too much mana too quickly" aspect that I brought up earlier?
I don't think it really interacts poorly with the format unless you're going to extreme competitive end. General use will probably be about equal to Exploration and Burgeoning. It'll play a couple lands early and that's about it. It's good for a 3rd copy. I doubt it would make too much mana too quickly in average use either. It doesn't even make mana itself and just lets you play a few lands earlier than normal like lots of other commonly played green cards. Yeah, it can be really really dumb with Crucible of Worlds, but I don't see how it's any different than turn 1 Jin Gitaxias/Hermit Druid or any of the other ***** the hyper competitive people like to do. I don't really see what else is particularly problematic. I mean it's pretty neat with the cards that let you search for 2-3 lands into hand but that doesn't really sound like it's worth tutoring for. It's just neat if you get it.
Now, as for trying to convince us that fast mana is a problem, unbanning them won't convince me that Fastbond or Academy is a problem. I've actually even tested them out in more typical casual decks and they're nice but aren't really all that amazing. They're nice ramp, though, but no Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection, or Cabal Coffers. They're more similar to another Sol Ring which is neat but I don't run all the time unless the deck is bad at land searching because rocks tend to get caught in sweepers all the time.
When your deck contains almost 40 lands, requiring four of them and two specific cards isn't really a godhand. And maybe I missed it but has anyone addressed the "interacts poorly with the format (higher life total negates the drawback)" and "too much mana too quickly" aspect that I brought up earlier?
I don't think it really interacts poorly with the format unless you're going to extreme competitive end. General use will probably be about equal to Exploration and Burgeoning. It'll play a couple lands early and that's about it. It's good for a 3rd copy. I doubt it would make too much mana too quickly in average use either. It doesn't even make mana itself and just lets you play a few lands earlier than normal like lots of other commonly played green cards. Yeah, it can be really really dumb with Crucible of Worlds, but I don't see how it's any different than turn 1 Jin Gitaxias/Hermit Druid or any of the other ***** the hyper competitive people like to do. I don't really see what else is particularly problematic. I mean it's pretty neat with the cards that let you search for 2-3 lands into hand but that doesn't really sound like it's worth tutoring for. It's just neat if you get it.
Now, as for trying to convince us that fast mana is a problem, unbanning them won't convince me that Fastbond or Academy is a problem. I've actually even tested them out in more typical casual decks and they're nice but aren't really all that amazing. They're nice ramp, though, but no Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection, or Cabal Coffers. They're more similar to another Sol Ring which is neat but I don't run all the time unless the deck is bad at land searching because rocks tend to get caught in sweepers all the time.
The card is restricted in Vintage and banned in Legacy, so plopping into a format that is deemed "slower" than its counterparts, with unrestricted access to one card at all times, is somehow better or "safe"? Gin Jitaxis, the Core Auger doesn't really do anything if answered right away, and there is reasonably cheap and efficient removal that every deck will run to answer a creature. Turn 1 Fastbond with a Kodamas Reach or Cultivate in hand can push you to 6 mana on turn 2. That's no where close to "God Hand", and its less susceptible to being disrupted than Sol Ring/Crypt starts because there isn't cheap, efficient removal for lands.
As for the comparisons, you can end a game with Fastbond well before you could even cast MWake/MReflection.
What were we trying to prove here again? That god hands can do things?
Just like Mind over Matter, Doomsday, Laboratory Maniac, etc there are cards that exist just to combo. Fastbond has the additional ability to function "fairly" which seems to be the saving grace of many cards that should probably be banned.
What were we trying to prove here again? That god hands can do things?
Just like Mind over Matter, Doomsday, Laboratory Maniac, etc there are cards that exist just to combo. Fastbond has the additional ability to function "fairly" which seems to be the saving grace of many cards that should probably be banned.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. The thing with MoM, Doomsday and LabMan is that someone who slips those cards into their decks knows damn well what they're doing - they're in there to win, and win they will.
Now, a card like Fastbond could be included in Casual Timmy McNewbieson's deck with the intent of "Oh cool I get some fast ramp out of it." and that's all fun and good until Timmy McNewbieson proceeds to think "Hey, this works nicely with land recursion...or future sight effects..." and before too long the deck explodes.
It's that kind of "It has casual uses but is too easily turned degenerate without even trying" that tends to be the truly scary cards in EDH, as they can turn even the most casual of playgroups upsidedown. In that same playgroup though you might still find LabMan in, say, a Prime Speaker Zegana + Fatties deck. But at least at that point it wasn't included to do fair and honest stuff with it, it was included to win, even if it won't win as easily as it would in a dedicated Labman combowombo deck. Which is, one could argue, a fair use.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I don't think it really interacts poorly with the format unless you're going to extreme competitive end. General use will probably be about equal to Exploration and Burgeoning. It'll play a couple lands early and that's about it. It's good for a 3rd copy. I doubt it would make too much mana too quickly in average use either. It doesn't even make mana itself and just lets you play a few lands earlier than normal like lots of other commonly played green cards. Yeah, it can be really really dumb with Crucible of Worlds, but I don't see how it's any different than turn 1 Jin Gitaxias/Hermit Druid or any of the other ***** the hyper competitive people like to do. I don't really see what else is particularly problematic. I mean it's pretty neat with the cards that let you search for 2-3 lands into hand but that doesn't really sound like it's worth tutoring for. It's just neat if you get it.
Now, as for trying to convince us that fast mana is a problem, unbanning them won't convince me that Fastbond or Academy is a problem. I've actually even tested them out in more typical casual decks and they're nice but aren't really all that amazing. They're nice ramp, though, but no Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection, or Cabal Coffers. They're more similar to another Sol Ring which is neat but I don't run all the time unless the deck is bad at land searching because rocks tend to get caught in sweepers all the time.
If the argument is that Fastbond has noncompetitive uses and we can't judge it solely on the worst case scenario then which is the competitive card? Crucible of Worlds? Evolving Wilds?
Jin Gitaxias, Core Augur doesn't really do anything if answered right away, and there is reasonably cheap and efficient removal that every deck will run to answer a creature
What were we trying to prove here again? That god hands can do things?
Just like Mind over Matter, Doomsday, Laboratory Maniac, etc there are cards that exist just to combo. Fastbond has the additional ability to function "fairly" which seems to be the saving grace of many cards that should probably be banned.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. The thing with MoM, Doomsday and LabMan is that someone who slips those cards into their decks knows damn well what they're doing - they're in there to win, and win they will.
Now, a card like Fastbond could be included in Casual Timmy McNewbieson's deck with the intent of "Oh cool I get some fast ramp out of it." and that's all fun and good until Timmy McNewbieson proceeds to think "Hey, this works nicely with land recursion...or future sight effects..." and before too long the deck explodes.
It's that kind of "It has casual uses but is too easily turned degenerate without even trying" that tends to be the truly scary cards in EDH, as they can turn even the most casual of playgroups upsidedown. In that same playgroup though you might still find LabMan in, say, a Prime Speaker Zegana + Fatties deck. But at least at that point it wasn't included to do fair and honest stuff with it, it was included to win, even if it won't win as easily as it would in a dedicated Labman combowombo deck. Which is, one could argue, a fair use.
But that's the same type of argument you see for Paradox Engine. The argument that these "trap" cards that turn casual Timmys into unbearable monsters seems like a disingenuous one at best. You know what cards turn Timmys into an overbearing force? Avenger of Zendikar, Vorinclex, etc. We even have a thread on Avenger here on the banned list forum. There's a very small cross-section of people that are both a) willing to run Fastbond even though it loses them life and b) unable to understand the effects of the card beyond ramp. How many naive Timmys do you know that would pay 20+ life to grab 10 lands off a fetch with Fastbond/Crucible? Because the type of player you are describing is exactly the type I have encountered that thinks Necropotence is terrible because it costs you life to use.
Trust me, I know that Fastbond is a broken card, but so is Mana Crypt. If the argument that Crypt/Ring don't ruin games because you just ramp into fatties is acceptable, the same applies to Fastbond. I think the better direction for the format would be to not have any of these, but if we're going to have some, we might as well have all of them.
Jin Gitaxias, Core Augur doesn't really do anything if answered right away, and there is reasonably cheap and efficient removal that every deck will run to answer a creature
You run all of those? Wow, must be quite the deck. How does it win? Just exercise all removal until there is nothing left to be played and let the game go to time?
Be realistic. Maybe you'll sway some folks with some rational thoughts.
But you know what's not "God Hand", Fetch, Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Vault/Insert Your favorite broken Rock, Crucible, Fast Bond. That's 3 non-land cards, not exactly "Christmas Land". Then some Commander is cast, like Damia, Sage of Stone.
Okay, so your hand is a fetch, Sol Ring, Crucible, and Fastbond? And you've mulliganned down to 4? Or are you saying that is in addition to some random other cards? Because that's still 4 specific cards. Even if you're running a 5 color deck (very specific) with all 10 fetches, 5 mana rocks that serve this purpose, and, say, 30 other lands, to be generous, the chance of getting your exact described hand is still going to be rather low (Read: at least less than 1 in 600, if not much worse).
Is the "Having Removal at the Ready" not already too specific? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
4 cards, throw in Tutors, and it isn't all to unreasonable to see that assembled by turn 2 on the play.
I'll echo the above statement, cards like these will just continue to drive the turn count down. Why would you want to spend hours on deckbuilding a 100-card singleton deck, just to play it for ~30 minutes at a time? Thats the most unappealing thing about competetive formats. Spend a couple hours crafting a deck, just to play it for ~4 turns.
Cryogen is also right, this card nails 2 ban criteria, which is more than enough to keep it where it is.
I understand my recent posts have been snarky, but let's be real with ourselves. This is a card that should be discussed between individual playgroups, and not one that should be suggested to come off to the universal playerbase.
You bring up a really good point here - turn lengths of games. Truly, this is very different for everyone and is subjective to individual tastes. In my area, the average game is over by turn 8 or 9, and this is not playing our competitive decks, which ends games typically on turn 4 or 5. Is turn 8 or 9 too early? Not for us, these games go ~30-40 minutes and allows us to grab a different deck, shuffle up, and get more games in during a night. So your proposed 'bad situation' is reality for me already and I like it that way.
Can you please do me a favor and be rational with your argument?
You first. You're arguing two different points, neither of which makes any sense. There's the "we have to test every card for fairness, regardless of how obviously broken it looks" angle, which apparently only applies to cards you say it does, not hypothetical ones I suggest. And then the "fast mana is already a problem, let's add more of it" which... still sounds like a Bond villain plan to be honest.
I agree with you as well that fast mana is a problem. The next step isn't to unban freakin' Fastbond, though. It's to ban Ring, Vault and Crypt like the sane people we are.
I am saying we need to test cards that actually exist and have been banned for some time to evaluate their actual impact as the format has changed with new cards. The argument to evaluate a fake card doesn't even exist in the same realm as what I am saying. That's a key difference between my proposed testing and yours. I am 100% making up fake cards and testing those in any format of MtG. I don't see how I am being unreasonable in this situation by calling out the lack of continuity of comparison.
And you're right, I have multiple sides to this argument - is that wrong to have? Simply put, again, I would much rather try things, learn from the trials, and go from there than live in the land of theory-crafting and assuming the worst.
I don't think it really interacts poorly with the format unless you're going to extreme competitive end. General use will probably be about equal to Exploration and Burgeoning. It'll play a couple lands early and that's about it. It's good for a 3rd copy. I doubt it would make too much mana too quickly in average use either. It doesn't even make mana itself and just lets you play a few lands earlier than normal like lots of other commonly played green cards. Yeah, it can be really really dumb with Crucible of Worlds, but I don't see how it's any different than turn 1 Jin Gitaxias/Hermit Druid or any of the other ***** the hyper competitive people like to do. I don't really see what else is particularly problematic. I mean it's pretty neat with the cards that let you search for 2-3 lands into hand but that doesn't really sound like it's worth tutoring for. It's just neat if you get it.
Now, as for trying to convince us that fast mana is a problem, unbanning them won't convince me that Fastbond or Academy is a problem. I've actually even tested them out in more typical casual decks and they're nice but aren't really all that amazing. They're nice ramp, though, but no Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection, or Cabal Coffers. They're more similar to another Sol Ring which is neat but I don't run all the time unless the deck is bad at land searching because rocks tend to get caught in sweepers all the time.
If the argument is that Fastbond has noncompetitive uses and we can't judge it solely on the worst case scenario then which is the competitive card? Crucible of Worlds? Evolving Wilds?
Cards don't have to be competitive or not competitive. It depends on how you use them. Of course, I don't really even see why you would actually try and tutor up Crucible+Fastbond+fetchland. There's already plenty of 2 card infinite mana combos. Yeah, that combo would probably win the game, but there's dozens of cheap two card combos that literally win the game. The Crucible/Strip Mine combo also isn't any worse than Armageddon + Terra Eternal/Avacyn. Of course, I guess you could say Crucible is kind of the competitive card because it doesn't really have a lot of uses outside of combos or people destroying your lands. I've been trying to put it in decks for almost a decade and haven't gotten it in one yet and I run a lot of 25 cent jank.
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Does that need to be tested? At what point does logic dictate that we can safely stop considering obviously unfair cards? Magic players have collectively tested fast mana over 20 years, and the result is, unsurprisingly, that it's broken. Been there, done that, lived through Urza's block, etc. It's not fear mongering, it's explaining the history of the game to people who've clearly forgotten how stupid early Magic was.
T1: Land, Fastbond, Land, Land, Fetchland, crack, Crucible of Worlds, replay and crack Fetchland x9, Tooth and Nail, getting Xenagos, God of Revels and Malignus... who wants to die first?
So your opening hand is very specifically: Three Misc lands, a Fetchland, Fastbond, Crucible of Worlds, and Tooth and Nail. Holy God Hand, Batman! That's very specific.
But that isn't the conversation we're trying to have - I agree fast mana is a problem, but this format has done little to try to curb the major problem-child cards and has encouraged their use, so why not try to examine the next step? If this helps prove fast mana is such an issue, wouldn't we think to look a step deeper at the whole issue, or am I just being naive to think that would ever happen?
Osi already said it, but your example implies a 'god draw' type hand that the banlist can't stop from happening with unbanned cards today. I stand by saying a card shouldn't be banned because of the potential perfect draws to make it abusable.
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But you know what's not "God Hand", Fetch, Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Vault/Insert Your favorite broken Rock, Crucible, Fast Bond. That's 3 non-land cards, not exactly "Christmas Land". Then some Commander is cast, like Damia, Sage of Stone.
Oh, but wait, "Christmas land" only exists in the arguments against the card, because I'm sure it's reasonable that some player has removal/counter at the ready. Well, under those circumstances, the controlling player would have answers to that as well, because logical folk only go big if they have protection in hand.
Seriously, this card doesn't need "Christmas Land" to be broken. Fast Bond into Horn of Greed, not exactly difficult to land that early. Or how about late, Fast Bond is Yawgmoths Bargain with HoG. I know, I know, you'll argue that something will be destroyed/exiled/answered.
Okay, so your hand is a fetch, Sol Ring, Crucible, and Fastbond? And you've mulliganned down to 4? Or are you saying that is in addition to some random other cards? Because that's still 4 specific cards. Even if you're running a 5 color deck (very specific) with all 10 fetches, 5 mana rocks that serve this purpose, and, say, 30 other lands, to be generous, the chance of getting your exact described hand is still going to be rather low (Read: at least less than 1 in 600, if not much worse).
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Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I can tell you, and speak for a lot of my friends on this, if EDH became a format of turn 6 or earlier wins all the time, then we would definitely lose interest and certainly not want to play in shops anymore.
Cards like Fastbond and Tolarian Academy can help drive the format in that direction. I'd prefer they didn't get unbanned.
Are we playing the same game? Because less than 1/600 seems unlikely at least in my book.
Is the "Having Removal at the Ready" not already too specific? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
4 cards, throw in Tutors, and it isn't all to unreasonable to see that assembled by turn 2 on the play.
I'll echo the above statement, cards like these will just continue to drive the turn count down. Why would you want to spend hours on deckbuilding a 100-card singleton deck, just to play it for ~30 minutes at a time? Thats the most unappealing thing about competetive formats. Spend a couple hours crafting a deck, just to play it for ~4 turns.
Cryogen is also right, this card nails 2 ban criteria, which is more than enough to keep it where it is.
I understand my recent posts have been snarky, but let's be real with ourselves. This is a card that should be discussed between individual playgroups, and not one that should be suggested to come off to the universal playerbase.
I agree with you as well that fast mana is a problem. The next step isn't to unban freakin' Fastbond, though. It's to ban Ring, Vault and Crypt like the sane people we are.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Now, as for trying to convince us that fast mana is a problem, unbanning them won't convince me that Fastbond or Academy is a problem. I've actually even tested them out in more typical casual decks and they're nice but aren't really all that amazing. They're nice ramp, though, but no Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection, or Cabal Coffers. They're more similar to another Sol Ring which is neat but I don't run all the time unless the deck is bad at land searching because rocks tend to get caught in sweepers all the time.
"It can be really dumb with Crucible of Worlds"-
And Oracle of Mul Daya, and Courser of Kruphix, and Future Sight, and Horn of Greed, and The Gitrog Monster, and Tireless Tracker, and Any Landfall Card.
The card is restricted in Vintage and banned in Legacy, so plopping into a format that is deemed "slower" than its counterparts, with unrestricted access to one card at all times, is somehow better or "safe"? Gin Jitaxis, the Core Auger doesn't really do anything if answered right away, and there is reasonably cheap and efficient removal that every deck will run to answer a creature. Turn 1 Fastbond with a Kodamas Reach or Cultivate in hand can push you to 6 mana on turn 2. That's no where close to "God Hand", and its less susceptible to being disrupted than Sol Ring/Crypt starts because there isn't cheap, efficient removal for lands.
As for the comparisons, you can end a game with Fastbond well before you could even cast MWake/MReflection.
T1: Land, Mana Crypt, Seething Song, Treasonous Ogre, Manamorphose, Tooth and Nail.
What were we trying to prove here again? That god hands can do things?
Just like Mind over Matter, Doomsday, Laboratory Maniac, etc there are cards that exist just to combo. Fastbond has the additional ability to function "fairly" which seems to be the saving grace of many cards that should probably be banned.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. The thing with MoM, Doomsday and LabMan is that someone who slips those cards into their decks knows damn well what they're doing - they're in there to win, and win they will.
Now, a card like Fastbond could be included in Casual Timmy McNewbieson's deck with the intent of "Oh cool I get some fast ramp out of it." and that's all fun and good until Timmy McNewbieson proceeds to think "Hey, this works nicely with land recursion...or future sight effects..." and before too long the deck explodes.
It's that kind of "It has casual uses but is too easily turned degenerate without even trying" that tends to be the truly scary cards in EDH, as they can turn even the most casual of playgroups upsidedown. In that same playgroup though you might still find LabMan in, say, a Prime Speaker Zegana + Fatties deck. But at least at that point it wasn't included to do fair and honest stuff with it, it was included to win, even if it won't win as easily as it would in a dedicated Labman combowombo deck. Which is, one could argue, a fair use.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If the argument is that Fastbond has noncompetitive uses and we can't judge it solely on the worst case scenario then which is the competitive card? Crucible of Worlds? Evolving Wilds?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Someone's previous argument of hypocrisy of the removal point comes to mind in regards to artifacts, enchantments, and lands. I still have all of these options available at my potential use.
But that's the same type of argument you see for Paradox Engine. The argument that these "trap" cards that turn casual Timmys into unbearable monsters seems like a disingenuous one at best. You know what cards turn Timmys into an overbearing force? Avenger of Zendikar, Vorinclex, etc. We even have a thread on Avenger here on the banned list forum. There's a very small cross-section of people that are both a) willing to run Fastbond even though it loses them life and b) unable to understand the effects of the card beyond ramp. How many naive Timmys do you know that would pay 20+ life to grab 10 lands off a fetch with Fastbond/Crucible? Because the type of player you are describing is exactly the type I have encountered that thinks Necropotence is terrible because it costs you life to use.
Trust me, I know that Fastbond is a broken card, but so is Mana Crypt. If the argument that Crypt/Ring don't ruin games because you just ramp into fatties is acceptable, the same applies to Fastbond. I think the better direction for the format would be to not have any of these, but if we're going to have some, we might as well have all of them.
You run all of those? Wow, must be quite the deck. How does it win? Just exercise all removal until there is nothing left to be played and let the game go to time?
Be realistic. Maybe you'll sway some folks with some rational thoughts.
I am saying we need to test cards that actually exist and have been banned for some time to evaluate their actual impact as the format has changed with new cards. The argument to evaluate a fake card doesn't even exist in the same realm as what I am saying. That's a key difference between my proposed testing and yours. I am 100% making up fake cards and testing those in any format of MtG. I don't see how I am being unreasonable in this situation by calling out the lack of continuity of comparison.
And you're right, I have multiple sides to this argument - is that wrong to have? Simply put, again, I would much rather try things, learn from the trials, and go from there than live in the land of theory-crafting and assuming the worst.
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