So, I am curious where people stand on this card now, considering the following:
Is this card more explosive than Gaea's Cradle and Serra's Sanctum? Each card can be significantly taken advantage of for high mana, what makes TA so special it needs to be banned and the others not?
Considering Metalworker was unbanned because it required a significant amount of artifacts to be taken advantage of, doesn't the same logic apply here?
Mishra's Workshop exists in artifact heavy decks and can provide even faster ramp, so why is TA singled out on it's own?
To me, I think TA could be cut loose based on the same reasoning as Metalworker - decks that will abuse it will be heavily artifact based and that brings inherent weaknesses into the structure of the card as well.
Honestly, I dont much care. The level you have to build to for it to be broken is not the level that the banned list tries to subscribe to. I am indifferent either way. I dont think its an auto ban but I dont necessarily believe it needs to be off the list.
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Honestly, I dont much care. The level you have to build to for it to be broken is not the level that the banned list tries to subscribe to. I am indifferent either way. I dont think its an auto ban but I dont necessarily believe it needs to be off the list.
Hahahaha nope. You don't have to do a lot of work to break this. Just build an artifact-centric deck, whether it's Sen Triplets, something Izzety, anything at all, and you'll be able to easily break this thing. I've had a casual Izzet Artifacts deck for a long while, if that would've had access to Academy...hoo lawdy.
See, the thing that keeps this well above and beyond Gaea's Cradle (And Serra's Sanctum isn't even a fair comparison) is twofold; artifacts tend to be cheaper in general, they fuel one another (Sol Ring into Signet, Thran Dynamo into Commander's Sphere, you name it) and they tend to be wiped much less often. Even if you don't build to abuse it, it's trivially easy to get this to tap for 3-5 mana on turn 3/4.
You may point at Metalworker at this point, but Metalworker has summoning sickness, produces colorless mana and is dependant on you revealing info of your hand. It's not even remotely compareable.
TL;DR: NO, PLEASE NO!
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
See, the thing that keeps this well above and beyond Gaea's Cradle (And Serra's Sanctum isn't even a fair comparison) is twofold; artifacts tend to be cheaper in general, they fuel one another (Sol Ring into Signet, Thran Dynamo into Commander's Sphere, you name it) and they tend to be wiped much less often. Even if you don't build to abuse it, it's trivially easy to get this to tap for 3-5 mana on turn 3/4.
You may point at Metalworker at this point, but Metalworker has summoning sickness, produces colorless mana and is dependant on you revealing info of your hand. It's not even remotely compareable.
TL;DR: NO, PLEASE NO!
My only comment is that unlike worker, the artifacts need to be in play for TA to go off. Since Sheldon references 'early-game', I feel the broken nature would require you to effectively dump your hand into play and then be top-decking a lot of the time. I also wouldn't necessarily consider it being 'trivially easy' for an artifact deck to get so much mana that quickly because it requires significantly good opening hands and draws to hit into artifacts like in your example.
Also, while if you do pull that off, you are just as effectively getting the same amount of mana from a T4 (if not sooner) Metalworker ability, so while they are not immediately comparable, you can definitely generate the same amounts of mana T3-T4 and beyond. I say this based off my own experiences with Metalworker in Daretti, where it is almost even more busted to net a T2 Blightsteel Colossus (which can happen and has happened several times) due entirely to Metalworker.
So, I am curious where people stand on this card now, considering the following:
Is this card more explosive than Gaea's Cradle and Serra's Sanctum? Each card can be significantly taken advantage of for high mana, what makes TA so special it needs to be banned and the others not?
Considering Metalworker was unbanned because it required a significant amount of artifacts to be taken advantage of, doesn't the same logic apply here?
Mishra's Workshop exists in artifact heavy decks and can provide even faster ramp, so why is TA singled out on it's own?
Yes
Metalworker is considerably slower than Academy. The mana it produces scales down as the game progresses. It produces colorless mana. It is far more easily removed.
Workshop produces colorless mana. Three mana is the average I would expect from Academy by turn 2, and significantly lower than peak. Workshop mana production is heavily restricted on what it can be used for.
So, I am curious where people stand on this card now, considering the following:
Is this card more explosive than Gaea's Cradle and Serra's Sanctum? Each card can be significantly taken advantage of for high mana, what makes TA so special it needs to be banned and the others not?
Considering Metalworker was unbanned because it required a significant amount of artifacts to be taken advantage of, doesn't the same logic apply here?
Mishra's Workshop exists in artifact heavy decks and can provide even faster ramp, so why is TA singled out on it's own?
Yes
Metalworker is considerably slower than Academy. The mana it produces scales down as the game progresses. It produces colorless mana. It is far more easily removed.
Workshop produces colorless mana. Three mana is the average I would expect from Academy by turn 2, and significantly lower than peak. Workshop mana production is heavily restricted on what it can be used for.
Need more than a one word response. There is a second important part to that question.
Yes and no, considering on T4 a Worker can produce 14 at most, maybe even 6 as a more reasonable number. Yes it scales down as you dump your hand out, but it is still very high. To get that much from TA, you need to be just as committed to artifacts as MW requires, so I don't see a difference based on my Daretti list's performance.
3 mana by turn 2? That takes a Godlike pull of Mana Crypt, Mox Opal, and Sol Ring to be really scary imo. And again, you're blatantly into artifacts like MW requires, which was considered to have a significant weakness of its own.
Hahahaha nope. You don't have to do a lot of work to break this. Just build an artifact-centric deck, whether it's Sen Triplets, something Izzety, anything at all, and you'll be able to easily break this thing. I've had a casual Izzet Artifacts deck for a long while, if that would've had access to Academy...hoo lawdy.
See, the thing that keeps this well above and beyond Gaea's Cradle (And Serra's Sanctum isn't even a fair comparison) is twofold; artifacts tend to be cheaper in general, they fuel one another (Sol Ring into Signet, Thran Dynamo into Commander's Sphere, you name it) and they tend to be wiped much less often. Even if you don't build to abuse it, it's trivially easy to get this to tap for 3-5 mana on turn 3/4.
You may point at Metalworker at this point, but Metalworker has summoning sickness, produces colorless mana and is dependant on you revealing info of your hand. It's not even remotely compareable.
TL;DR: NO, PLEASE NO!
Artifacts are more plentiful but its not as if it goes in every deck. While it could be fast, I feel like its probably slower than Refelos as a singleton most of the time. I never had an issue with Refelos as a singleton so I still stand by my feeling for this one.
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3 mana basically puts it with Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mishra's Workshop since it's a land that doesn't make mana on its own. It probably doesn't particularly need a ban and basically bit it back when the eldrazi came out the first time and people were freaking out about the first serious high mana spells besides Insurrection, Time Stretch (brought up for banning), Tooth and Nail (brought up for banning), and Storm Herd. I seem to remember it being axed alongside Channel which is automatic turn 1 eldrazi.
Need more than a one word response. There is a second important part to that question.
Yes and no, considering on T4 a Worker can produce 14 at most, maybe even 6 as a more reasonable number. Yes it scales down as you dump your hand out, but it is still very high. To get that much from TA, you need to be just as committed to artifacts as MW requires, so I don't see a difference based on my Daretti list's performance.
3 mana by turn 2? That takes a Godlike pull of Mana Crypt, Mox Opal, and Sol Ring to be really scary imo. And again, you're blatantly into artifacts like MW requires, which was considered to have a significant weakness of its own.
How often does Gaea's Cradle tap for mana on turn 1? Serra's Sanctum?
While Cradle can generate more mana than Academy, it does so considerably slower, and is considerably easier to disrupt. Sanctum doesn't even come close.
Again, Metalworker can generate more mana than Academy, but is much slower in doing so, and far easier to disrupt. It also generates colorless mana.
Additionally, while it can be easier to generate large mana with Metalworker due to not needing to cast the cards first, Academy allows you to generate mana while advancing your board state, and is usually more advantageous. Also, because Academy starts much earlier, and scales up as you progress, the overall advantage is considerably stronger.
Plus another half dozen or more, depending on your build.
If Tolarian Academy does not routinely tap for , and often , on turn 2 if on the battlefield, you probably do not have enough artifacts to justify it over Island.
More, the vast majority of artifacts that would be expected to fuel an early Academy produce mana on their own, and are not subject to Summoning Sickness (unlike the creatures for Cradle).
Also, dumping your hand with Academy is usually inconsequential, as it is very common to cast a Windfall effect on turn 2 or 3, or Blue Sun's Zenith for X=7 on turn 3.
The difference between a Gaea's Cradle (when played optimally) and a Forest is similar in scale to the difference between that same Cradle and Tolarian Academy (when played optimally).
IFMana Crypt & Sol Ring are banned (& they really should be), then we can reasonably discuss playtesting with Academy, though I would still expect it to remain banned for being that broken
Tolarian Academy is also more ubiquitous due to a lower price and higher supply/demand. One of those things where PBTE would almost certainly be an issue for workshop, if people wanted to run it all over the place, but it isn't since supply and demand are both scarce.
Need more than a one word response. There is a second important part to that question.
Yes and no, considering on T4 a Worker can produce 14 at most, maybe even 6 as a more reasonable number. Yes it scales down as you dump your hand out, but it is still very high. To get that much from TA, you need to be just as committed to artifacts as MW requires, so I don't see a difference based on my Daretti list's performance.
3 mana by turn 2? That takes a Godlike pull of Mana Crypt, Mox Opal, and Sol Ring to be really scary imo. And again, you're blatantly into artifacts like MW requires, which was considered to have a significant weakness of its own.
How often does Gaea's Cradle tap for mana on turn 1? Serra's Sanctum?
While Cradle can generate more mana than Academy, it does so considerably slower, and is considerably easier to disrupt. Sanctum doesn't even come close.
Again, Metalworker can generate more mana than Academy, but is much slower in doing so, and far easier to disrupt. It also generates colorless mana.
Additionally, while it can be easier to generate large mana with Metalworker due to not needing to cast the cards first, Academy allows you to generate mana while advancing your board state, and is usually more advantageous. Also, because Academy starts much earlier, and scales up as you progress, the overall advantage is considerably stronger.
Plus another half dozen or more, depending on your build.
If Tolarian Academy does not routinely tap for , and often , on turn 2 if on the battlefield, you probably do not have enough artifacts to justify it over Island.
More, the vast majority of artifacts that would be expected to fuel an early Academy produce mana on their own, and are not subject to Summoning Sickness (unlike the creatures for Cradle).
Also, dumping your hand with Academy is usually inconsequential, as it is very common to cast a Windfall effect on turn 2 or 3, or Blue Sun's Zenith for X=7 on turn 3.
The difference between a Gaea's Cradle (when played optimally) and a Forest is similar in scale to the difference between that same Cradle and Tolarian Academy (when played optimally).
IFMana Crypt & Sol Ring are banned (& they really should be), then we can reasonably discuss playtesting with Academy, though I would still expect it to remain banned for being that broken
My counter-point is still the same - to get 2 or 3 U mana on T2 from TA, you literally need an effective 'god draw' have netting roughly 4/9 (7 from opener + 2 draws) pretty specific cards, not including you have to start with TA in your hand or draw luckily into this. With Partial Paris gone now, hand sculpting is not nearly as possible so the abusiveness of running into this is even more rare. And, if you were building your deck to consistently get 2 to 3 mana on T2, you are jamming your deck with a bunch of low cost rocks, especially all you listed (which are not all playable in every deck), with probably a significantly lower threat density.
In a majority of cases, I expect TA to net the same amount of mana as Cradle and Sanctum (in heavy enchantment decks) by T4, which is probably 3 at best case scenario for all three cards. I agree that TA would be more numerous/applicable in more decks, but ubiquity is not a reason to keep a card banned as we've discussed throughout this sub-forum, and the abusive decks that would take advantage of it are artifact heavy decks, which have inherent weaknesses of their own that we all already know of.
Using the thirteen 0-or-1 CMC artifacts available to mono-blue I listed, you have a 22.85% chance of Tolarian Academy adding on turn 2 with your opening seven, provided you have the Academy on turn 2, and an untapped mana source on turn 1.
This is entirely discounting the possibility of those two artifacts producing additional mana themselves, which would in turn allow a greater range of artifacts, and/or a greater number of artifacts for Academy on turn 2. Or additional colors, which allow for a greater number of such artifacts to be in the deck.
This also discounts the additional CMC 0 & 1 artifacts a deck would likely be running, as well as discounting mulligans, and your turn 1 & 2 draws.
Don't forget that many of the artifacts that allow Academy to produce or more mana on turn 2 themselves will add often-unused mana that same turn.
God-hand indeed.
Again, if you have Tolarian Academy on turn 2, and it is not consistently producing at least two mana that turn, an Island is probably better for that deck anyway.
Personally, I think unbanning Metalworker was a mistake, and I am not surprised to see that unfortunate decision leading to questions of whether Academy is too broken (it is, in my opinion).
My counter-point is still the same - to get 2 or 3 U mana on T2 from TA, you literally need an effective 'god draw' have netting roughly 4/9 (7 from opener + 2 draws) pretty specific cards, not including you have to start with TA in your hand or draw luckily into this. With Partial Paris gone now, hand sculpting is not nearly as possible so the abusiveness of running into this is even more rare. And, if you were building your deck to consistently get 2 to 3 mana on T2, you are jamming your deck with a bunch of low cost rocks, especially all you listed (which are not all playable in every deck), with probably a significantly lower threat density.
In a majority of cases, I expect TA to net the same amount of mana as Cradle and Sanctum (in heavy enchantment decks) by T4, which is probably 3 at best case scenario for all three cards. I agree that TA would be more numerous/applicable in more decks, but ubiquity is not a reason to keep a card banned as we've discussed throughout this sub-forum, and the abusive decks that would take advantage of it are artifact heavy decks, which have inherent weaknesses of their own that we all already know of.
^ this is exactly where I am at. It takes such a specific hand for Academy to work early. Even if you are running an artifact heavy blue deck, getting early artifacts + Academy + something to try to dump it into seems really really specific and narrow. Most of the arguments seem to be talking about god hand openings. Most of these are already looking at like what if you have sol ring + mana crypt + academy start which is really silly because even without academy thats already a ridiculously good hand.
I stand by the fact that Refellos in the 99 is probably stronger than Academy in this format. A god hand could happen, but 99% of the time it wont.
Personally, I think unbanning Metalworker was a mistake, and I am not surprised to see that unfortunate decision leading to questions of whether Academy is too broken (it is, in my opinion).
I have been playing with it since it got unbanned and I think that I have seen something like 2 times that it was ever like.... really good.
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Using the thirteen 0-or-1 CMC artifacts available to mono-blue I listed, you have a 22.85% chance of Tolarian Academy adding on turn 2 with your opening seven, provided you have the Academy on turn 2, and an untapped mana source on turn 1.
This is entirely discounting the possibility of those two artifacts producing additional mana themselves, which would in turn allow a greater range of artifacts, and/or a greater number of artifacts for Academy on turn 2. Or additional colors, which allow for a greater number of such artifacts to be in the deck.
This also discounts the additional CMC 0 & 1 artifacts a deck would likely be running, as well as discounting mulligans, and your turn 1 & 2 draws.
Don't forget that many of the artifacts that allow Academy to produce or more mana on turn 2 themselves will add often-unused mana that same turn.
God-hand indeed.
Again, if you have Tolarian Academy on turn 2, and it is not consistently producing at least two mana that turn, an Island is probably better for that deck anyway.
Your math doesn't account for the liklihood of opening or drawing into Tolarian Academy in the first 9 cards, which definitely drops that 22.85% down significantly. Osieorb18 is much better at mathing than me (and I am not on my work computer to try to figure it out exactly atm) and I would be actually interested to see what the true percentage of getting 2 mana from TA with the 13 cards you mentioned being accessible.
And at the same time, we get UU on T2. We already have 4 CMC capable spells typically from a T1 Sol Ring, how is TA that much more broken?
Personally, I think unbanning Metalworker was a mistake, and I am not surprised to see that unfortunate decision leading to questions of whether Academy is too broken (it is, in my opinion).
I have been playing with it since it got unbanned and I think that I have seen something like 2 times that it was ever like.... really good.
In my Kurkesh deck, every time I have gotten it in my opening hand or drawn into it on T2-3, it has provided a huge advantage to me immediately, sometimes producing situations that were effectively, albeit not literally, "game over" by turn 4. It might not be impressive in more competitive metas, but in my experience it is often pretty broken for more typical Commander groups.
I should also note that while it is certainly a fair question whether Academy should be banned when Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are not, another way to look at the problem is to consider that the fact that Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are not banned increases the likelihood that Academy will be a problem card in the format, as each offers the possibility of letting Academy start producing a lot of mana from early in the game. I doubt my meta is the only in which Land -> Sol Ring -> Signet/Mindstone occurs semi-frequently on turn 1. That on its own - not accounting for the possibility of an artifact land or 0-cost artifacts - lets Academy provide UU on turn 2, and that's assuming one doesn't use the turn 1 artifacts and land to cast more artifacts before Academy is tapped. And that's UU = 2+ in addition to what Sol Ring or Crypt is doing at that point in the game. That adds up to a fair amount of fast mana. That won't happen every game, of course, but it's not exactly a god hand, either.
I highly doubt Academy is more broken than Sol Ring. Obviously anyone that thinks Ring/Crypt should be axed would be all over Academy being broken, though. Yeah, it is an overpowered mistake, but no more than the other overpowered mistakes in the format. Too much mana too fast surely applies to Channel which lets you go nuts as soon as turn 1 with up to 39 colorless mana, but Academy is just another Sol Ring. It's broken if you push your deck to the max, but is fine for normal play.
Comparing TA to Sol Ring misses one vital point; that it doesn't take a "god draw" to get 2 mana out of TA on turn 2, and it also certainly doesn't require on to produce 7 mana on turn 6. Sol Ring, however, never produces more than 2 mana. TA scales up throughout the game. A turn 7 Sol Ring effectively means +1 mana on that turn, +2 on following turns. Turn 7 TA can easily be 7 mana right there, which when combined with blue's suite of draw is pretty scary.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Comparing TA to Sol Ring misses one vital point; that it doesn't take a "god draw" to get 2 mana out of TA on turn 2, and it also certainly doesn't require on to produce 7 mana on turn 6. Sol Ring, however, never produces more than 2 mana. TA scales up throughout the game. A turn 7 Sol Ring effectively means +1 mana on that turn, +2 on following turns. Turn 7 TA can easily be 7 mana right there, which when combined with blue's suite of draw is pretty scary.
Most of the horror stories of TA come from 60 card constructed formats. When you start relying on Sol Ring / Mana Crypt starts and then having another specific card in your opener I feel like what you are worried about really is not that other card.
TA is a good card. But I dont feel like the consistency of this format is really that which it would be reliably a problem. Sol Ring / Mana Crypt are cards that on their own make great starts. TA on the other hand.... takes a very specific deck with a specific setup and it needs to happen essentially immediately (to be a problem).
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The problem with Tolarian Academy is not really the potential God hand explosive starts, or even the card in itself. It's other cards that get combined with it.
Sanctum doesn't synergize with other mana producers like Cradle and Academy. And Cradle at least needs hastey mana dorks to explode in the early game in mana. So Academy definitely seems like the worst of the 3 for explosive starts.
But the real reason in my mind is that it would be horribly deck/format warping. Decks would change to make sure they can abuse it as much as possible in the same way that Prophet of Kruphix did and was banned for.
The card is banned in everything and restricted in vintage for good reasons. I hope it never leaves.
Comparing TA to Sol Ring misses one vital point; that it doesn't take a "god draw" to get 2 mana out of TA on turn 2, and it also certainly doesn't require on to produce 7 mana on turn 6. Sol Ring, however, never produces more than 2 mana. TA scales up throughout the game. A turn 7 Sol Ring effectively means +1 mana on that turn, +2 on following turns. Turn 7 TA can easily be 7 mana right there, which when combined with blue's suite of draw is pretty scary.
The same argument about late game TA can be said about dropping Cradle on turn 7 as well. Late game utilization between the three cards has no drastic difference other than ubiquity and opportunities. The constant argument has been about 'too much mana too quickly', but what is too quickly and what is too much when compared to the current cards in the format, most notably Cradle. If Cradle made the banlist, then my argument wouldn't have any merit and I'd be content with keep TA banned, but as it stands I do not see a drastic difference between either card when included in decks that could take advantage of them.
The problem with Tolarian Academy is not really the potential God hand explosive starts, or even the card in itself. It's other cards that get combined with it.
Sanctum doesn't synergize with other mana producers like Cradle and Academy. And Cradle at least needs hastey mana dorks to explode in the early game in mana. So Academy definitely seems like the worst of the 3 for explosive starts.
But the real reason in my mind is that it would be horribly deck/format warping. Decks would change to make sure they can abuse it as much as possible in the same way that Prophet of Kruphix did and was banned for.
The card is banned in everything and restricted in vintage for good reasons. I hope it never leaves.
I don't agree that the card would warp the format because the requirement to have numerous artifacts in play. I get every deck runs artifacts, but how often do you have them all in play? Also without putting any math or facts into this, I think it's probably safe to say the average EDH deck has 10 artifacts in it, so how often would this card be breaking anything?
The problem is not that it needs all or a lot of artifacts in play. It's that it's extremely easy to get a handful of artifacts in play and cause this to tap for quite a bit, in addition to the mana the mana artifacts produce.
And you can't think of this card as just being inserted into decks. People are going to put this card in their decks, uptick the number of artifacts in their deck to increase its utilization, and increase the ways to abuse it and get it out onto the field to achieve those fast early game mana accelerations.
As a parallel, I'll mention Prophet again. People were setting their decks up to tutor up prophet, drop it early, protect it with counter spells, and use draw tap effects like Arcanis to accelerate their decks to ridiculous leads.
Sure, a board wipe can stop it. If you can get through their constant open mana for counter Spells. Now substitute Academy for prophet and that's what people will do.
1 Artifacts are colorless (giving them an edge over enchantments), are often cheap with easy access to ramp, and aren't creatures (gaea's cradle is dependant on creatures). Yes, TA is that much stronger. EDIT: Yes the point is that creatures are easier to remove. Let's move on.
2 Metalworker is a meek creature so is easier to remove and requires a large hand to function as brokenly as TA.
3 Blue mana isn't colorless and can be used for stuff that isn't artifacts. Mishra's Workshop is broken in many formats but nowhere as absurd as TA.
All in all the answer is: Yes, the other cards are problematic, but TA is beyond insane.
Before going into details, I'd also like to provide the ruling information/posts from the RC regarding TA:
Source: Official site, June 18, 2010
So, I am curious where people stand on this card now, considering the following:
To me, I think TA could be cut loose based on the same reasoning as Metalworker - decks that will abuse it will be heavily artifact based and that brings inherent weaknesses into the structure of the card as well.
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Hahahaha nope. You don't have to do a lot of work to break this. Just build an artifact-centric deck, whether it's Sen Triplets, something Izzety, anything at all, and you'll be able to easily break this thing. I've had a casual Izzet Artifacts deck for a long while, if that would've had access to Academy...hoo lawdy.
See, the thing that keeps this well above and beyond Gaea's Cradle (And Serra's Sanctum isn't even a fair comparison) is twofold; artifacts tend to be cheaper in general, they fuel one another (Sol Ring into Signet, Thran Dynamo into Commander's Sphere, you name it) and they tend to be wiped much less often. Even if you don't build to abuse it, it's trivially easy to get this to tap for 3-5 mana on turn 3/4.
You may point at Metalworker at this point, but Metalworker has summoning sickness, produces colorless mana and is dependant on you revealing info of your hand. It's not even remotely compareable.
TL;DR: NO, PLEASE NO!
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Also, while if you do pull that off, you are just as effectively getting the same amount of mana from a T4 (if not sooner) Metalworker ability, so while they are not immediately comparable, you can definitely generate the same amounts of mana T3-T4 and beyond. I say this based off my own experiences with Metalworker in Daretti, where it is almost even more busted to net a T2 Blightsteel Colossus (which can happen and has happened several times) due entirely to Metalworker.
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Artifacts are more plentiful but its not as if it goes in every deck. While it could be fast, I feel like its probably slower than Refelos as a singleton most of the time. I never had an issue with Refelos as a singleton so I still stand by my feeling for this one.
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How often does Gaea's Cradle tap for mana on turn 1? Serra's Sanctum?
While Cradle can generate more mana than Academy, it does so considerably slower, and is considerably easier to disrupt. Sanctum doesn't even come close.
Again, Metalworker can generate more mana than Academy, but is much slower in doing so, and far easier to disrupt. It also generates colorless mana.
Additionally, while it can be easier to generate large mana with Metalworker due to not needing to cast the cards first, Academy allows you to generate mana while advancing your board state, and is usually more advantageous. Also, because Academy starts much earlier, and scales up as you progress, the overall advantage is considerably stronger.
Candelabra of Tawnos
Expedition Map
Sensei's Divining Top
Seat of the Synod (+1 for each color other than Blue)
Darksteel Citadel
Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Mox Opal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Grim Monolith
Jeweled Amulet
Lotus Petal
Any of the Talismans
Any of the Signets
Plus another half dozen or more, depending on your build.
More, the vast majority of artifacts that would be expected to fuel an early Academy produce mana on their own, and are not subject to Summoning Sickness (unlike the creatures for Cradle).
Also, dumping your hand with Academy is usually inconsequential, as it is very common to cast a Windfall effect on turn 2 or 3, or Blue Sun's Zenith for X=7 on turn 3.
The difference between a Gaea's Cradle (when played optimally) and a Forest is similar in scale to the difference between that same Cradle and Tolarian Academy (when played optimally).
IF Mana Crypt & Sol Ring are banned (& they really should be), then we can reasonably discuss playtesting with Academy, though I would still expect it to remain banned for being that broken
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In a majority of cases, I expect TA to net the same amount of mana as Cradle and Sanctum (in heavy enchantment decks) by T4, which is probably 3 at best case scenario for all three cards. I agree that TA would be more numerous/applicable in more decks, but ubiquity is not a reason to keep a card banned as we've discussed throughout this sub-forum, and the abusive decks that would take advantage of it are artifact heavy decks, which have inherent weaknesses of their own that we all already know of.
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This is entirely discounting the possibility of those two artifacts producing additional mana themselves, which would in turn allow a greater range of artifacts, and/or a greater number of artifacts for Academy on turn 2. Or additional colors, which allow for a greater number of such artifacts to be in the deck.
This also discounts the additional CMC 0 & 1 artifacts a deck would likely be running, as well as discounting mulligans, and your turn 1 & 2 draws.
Don't forget that many of the artifacts that allow Academy to produce or more mana on turn 2 themselves will add often-unused mana that same turn.
God-hand indeed.
Again, if you have Tolarian Academy on turn 2, and it is not consistently producing at least two mana that turn, an Island is probably better for that deck anyway.
A Dying Wish
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Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
^ this is exactly where I am at. It takes such a specific hand for Academy to work early. Even if you are running an artifact heavy blue deck, getting early artifacts + Academy + something to try to dump it into seems really really specific and narrow. Most of the arguments seem to be talking about god hand openings. Most of these are already looking at like what if you have sol ring + mana crypt + academy start which is really silly because even without academy thats already a ridiculously good hand.
I stand by the fact that Refellos in the 99 is probably stronger than Academy in this format. A god hand could happen, but 99% of the time it wont.
I have been playing with it since it got unbanned and I think that I have seen something like 2 times that it was ever like.... really good.
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And at the same time, we get UU on T2. We already have 4 CMC capable spells typically from a T1 Sol Ring, how is TA that much more broken?
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In my Kurkesh deck, every time I have gotten it in my opening hand or drawn into it on T2-3, it has provided a huge advantage to me immediately, sometimes producing situations that were effectively, albeit not literally, "game over" by turn 4. It might not be impressive in more competitive metas, but in my experience it is often pretty broken for more typical Commander groups.
I should also note that while it is certainly a fair question whether Academy should be banned when Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are not, another way to look at the problem is to consider that the fact that Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are not banned increases the likelihood that Academy will be a problem card in the format, as each offers the possibility of letting Academy start producing a lot of mana from early in the game. I doubt my meta is the only in which Land -> Sol Ring -> Signet/Mindstone occurs semi-frequently on turn 1. That on its own - not accounting for the possibility of an artifact land or 0-cost artifacts - lets Academy provide UU on turn 2, and that's assuming one doesn't use the turn 1 artifacts and land to cast more artifacts before Academy is tapped. And that's UU = 2+ in addition to what Sol Ring or Crypt is doing at that point in the game. That adds up to a fair amount of fast mana. That won't happen every game, of course, but it's not exactly a god hand, either.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Most of the horror stories of TA come from 60 card constructed formats. When you start relying on Sol Ring / Mana Crypt starts and then having another specific card in your opener I feel like what you are worried about really is not that other card.
TA is a good card. But I dont feel like the consistency of this format is really that which it would be reliably a problem. Sol Ring / Mana Crypt are cards that on their own make great starts. TA on the other hand.... takes a very specific deck with a specific setup and it needs to happen essentially immediately (to be a problem).
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Sanctum doesn't synergize with other mana producers like Cradle and Academy. And Cradle at least needs hastey mana dorks to explode in the early game in mana. So Academy definitely seems like the worst of the 3 for explosive starts.
But the real reason in my mind is that it would be horribly deck/format warping. Decks would change to make sure they can abuse it as much as possible in the same way that Prophet of Kruphix did and was banned for.
The card is banned in everything and restricted in vintage for good reasons. I hope it never leaves.
I don't agree that the card would warp the format because the requirement to have numerous artifacts in play. I get every deck runs artifacts, but how often do you have them all in play? Also without putting any math or facts into this, I think it's probably safe to say the average EDH deck has 10 artifacts in it, so how often would this card be breaking anything?
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And you can't think of this card as just being inserted into decks. People are going to put this card in their decks, uptick the number of artifacts in their deck to increase its utilization, and increase the ways to abuse it and get it out onto the field to achieve those fast early game mana accelerations.
As a parallel, I'll mention Prophet again. People were setting their decks up to tutor up prophet, drop it early, protect it with counter spells, and use draw tap effects like Arcanis to accelerate their decks to ridiculous leads.
Sure, a board wipe can stop it. If you can get through their constant open mana for counter Spells. Now substitute Academy for prophet and that's what people will do.
2 Metalworker is a meek creature so is easier to remove and requires a large hand to function as brokenly as TA.
3 Blue mana isn't colorless and can be used for stuff that isn't artifacts. Mishra's Workshop is broken in many formats but nowhere as absurd as TA.
All in all the answer is: Yes, the other cards are problematic, but TA is beyond insane.