I tried playing Paradox engine in two different decks and both times the card strait up won me the game. All it requires is a couple mana rocks and some draw power. The first time I tried it, I was playing a wheel deck with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher the Fierce. I think I had one or two rocks out with Kydele and that was enough. I decided to pull Paradox Engine from the deck after that.
My second attempt to use Paradox was in a Samut, Voice of Dissent deck with a bunch of creatures with tap abilities. I dropped Paradox and was able to win that turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and a couple draw spells. I pulled it from the deck after that. The card is just too good and even without trying to build combo, it ends up doing exactly that.
I loved Prophet of Kruphix but it wasn't near as busted as Paradox Engine is. There were plenty of times where I didn't win with Prophet and even when I did, it typically took a full round of turns where my opponents had a chance to deal with Prophet. Paradox typically wins without instant speed removal.
I tried playing Paradox engine in two different decks and both times the card strait up won me the game. All it requires is a couple mana rocks and some draw power. The first time I tried it, I was playing a wheel deck with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher the Fierce. I think I had one or two rocks out with Kydele and that was enough. I decided to pull Paradox Engine from the deck after that.
My second attempt to use Paradox was in a Samut, Voice of Dissent deck with a bunch of creatures with tap abilities. I dropped Paradox and was able to win that turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and a couple draw spells. I pulled it from the deck after that. The card is just too good and even without trying to build combo, it ends up doing exactly that.
I loved Prophet of Kruphix but it wasn't near as busted as Paradox Engine is. There were plenty of times where I didn't win with Prophet and even when I did, it typically took a full round of turns where my opponents had a chance to deal with Prophet. Paradox typically wins without instant speed removal.
A couple mana rocks and consistent draw power are not an easy accomplishment in most decks. Just my 2cents.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
From my playtesting experience with it, Paradox Engine reminds me somewhat of a Staff of Domination. Not every deck is exactly going to want a Staff of Domination if its by itself which may sound weird to some. However if you are willing to make room in your deck to add other cards that have strong synergy with it, then that is when it actually starts seeming to be very strong. Yet this Paradox Engine isn't exactly meant for every deck either and the talk of it reminds me of how people were certain Panharmonicon was going to get the axe initially.
This card has consistently been a problem in any deck willing to invest in any amount of mana dorks/mana rocks and a small amount of draw. It takes a comically small board state to suddenly "go off". I'm talking 1-2 mana rocks and 1-2 mana dorks. This is a problem, both for cEDH and casual. Whereas Prophet of Kruphix provides a lot of midrange/controllish value, this card absolutely puts some combo decks over the top just by its mere presence. I'd like to see a ban on this card. Hell, i'd accept a Prophet unbanning just to see this card gone.
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
This card has consistently been a problem in any deck willing to invest in any amount of mana dorks/mana rocks and a small amount of draw. It takes a comically small board state to suddenly "go off". I'm talking 1-2 mana rocks and 1-2 mana dorks. This is a problem, both for cEDH and casual. Whereas Prophet of Kruphix provides a lot of midrange/controllish value, this card absolutely puts some combo decks over the top just by its mere presence. I'd like to see a ban on this card. Hell, i'd accept a Prophet unbanning just to see this card gone.
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
The fact that it doesnt do anything on it's own is the critical reason why it won't be banned. The cards you all listed either 1) were insanely strong on their own, 2) are poor for the nature of the format, or 3) poor for a multiplayer game. I don't see Paradox Engine falling into those categories.
If Paradox Engine is able to ruin a game of mine it means I let someone have insane amount of ramp and access to card draw with no repercussions, which is on me as a player to be better about.
I tried playing Paradox engine in two different decks and both times the card strait up won me the game. All it requires is a couple mana rocks and some draw power. The first time I tried it, I was playing a wheel deck with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher the Fierce. I think I had one or two rocks out with Kydele and that was enough. I decided to pull Paradox Engine from the deck after that.
My second attempt to use Paradox was in a Samut, Voice of Dissent deck with a bunch of creatures with tap abilities. I dropped Paradox and was able to win that turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and a couple draw spells. I pulled it from the deck after that. The card is just too good and even without trying to build combo, it ends up doing exactly that.
I loved Prophet of Kruphix but it wasn't near as busted as Paradox Engine is. There were plenty of times where I didn't win with Prophet and even when I did, it typically took a full round of turns where my opponents had a chance to deal with Prophet. Paradox typically wins without instant speed removal.
In these two situations, replace PE with Umbral Mantle. Just as busted.
You could tap out to cast Prophet, then have mana available on opponents' turns to counter spells or cast more creatures. This made it so that your opponents needed to keep removal up to kill it when you tapped out. What would also happen is someone would clone it. PoK is bad for multiplayer, effectively giving you 4 turns for each of your opponents' turns.
If you tap out to cast PE, opponents will get the chance to destroy it. To win the turn you play it, you need to keep mana up, which makes the effective mana cost much higher. In this regard, it is no different than any other combo piece.
This card has consistently been a problem in any deck willing to invest in any amount of mana dorks/mana rocks and a small amount of draw. It takes a comically small board state to suddenly "go off". I'm talking 1-2 mana rocks and 1-2 mana dorks. This is a problem, both for cEDH and casual. Whereas Prophet of Kruphix provides a lot of midrange/controllish value, this card absolutely puts some combo decks over the top just by its mere presence. I'd like to see a ban on this card. Hell, i'd accept a Prophet unbanning just to see this card gone.
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
The fact that it doesnt do anything on it's own is the critical reason why it won't be banned. The cards you all listed either 1) were insanely strong on their own, 2) are poor for the nature of the format, or 3) poor for a multiplayer game. I don't see Paradox Engine falling into those categories.
If Paradox Engine is able to ruin a game of mine it means I let someone have insane amount of ramp and access to card draw with no repercussions, which is on me as a player to be better about.
You are greatly overstating how much of a board presence one needs to take advantage of PE. Unless you are literally blowing up every mana rock and dork that your opponents play(you aren't), then it is extremely easy for someone to assemble infinite mana and/or card draw with Paradox Engine and a pretty limited board state. Hell, I've seen people go off with a single Selvala, Explorer Returned.
This card has consistently been a problem in any deck willing to invest in any amount of mana dorks/mana rocks and a small amount of draw. It takes a comically small board state to suddenly "go off". I'm talking 1-2 mana rocks and 1-2 mana dorks. This is a problem, both for cEDH and casual. Whereas Prophet of Kruphix provides a lot of midrange/controllish value, this card absolutely puts some combo decks over the top just by its mere presence. I'd like to see a ban on this card. Hell, i'd accept a Prophet unbanning just to see this card gone.
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
The fact that it doesnt do anything on it's own is the critical reason why it won't be banned. The cards you all listed either 1) were insanely strong on their own, 2) are poor for the nature of the format, or 3) poor for a multiplayer game. I don't see Paradox Engine falling into those categories.
If Paradox Engine is able to ruin a game of mine it means I let someone have insane amount of ramp and access to card draw with no repercussions, which is on me as a player to be better about.
You are greatly overstating how much of a board presence one needs to take advantage of PE. Unless you are literally blowing up every mana rock and dork that your opponents play(you aren't), then it is extremely easy for someone to assemble infinite mana and/or card draw with Paradox Engine and a pretty limited board state. Hell, I've seen people go off with a single Selvala, Explorer Returned.
On the contrary, I think you are overstating the 'broken' value of this. I ran it in my Selvala deck and more often than not it led to me getting one extra untap and then nothing else. Artifact board wipes are VERY common, so mana rocks getting pwned is not uncommon around my parts because many people play artifacts and thus they get nuked. I also see the same thing on MTGO.
You are greatly overstating how much of a board presence one needs to take advantage of PE. Unless you are literally blowing up every mana rock and dork that your opponents play(you aren't), then it is extremely easy for someone to assemble infinite mana and/or card draw with Paradox Engine and a pretty limited board state. Hell, I've seen people go off with a single Selvala, Explorer Returned.
You don't even need to go infinite. The other day I was playing against someone who had 2 mana rocks in play when Paradox Engine came down. By the time they stopped casting spells, they had nearly 200 mana floating. We were playing Planechase at the time, so he dumped all the remaining mana into rolling the Planar die.
The thing about Paradox Engine is that the competitive EDH meta is full of artifact mana. The fact that both Narset and Zur decks regularly want to wipe the landbase once they have landed their commander probably does not help one bit. Just from top of my head, here's a list of cards that just about every deck runs.
Combined with an assortment of Signets and Talismans or theilk. Many decks, since they are already running tons of artifact mana, choose to run Mox Opal as well - Doomsday Zur and Narset can get close to or above 20 artifacts without being artifact decks themselves. Many slower decks choose to run Gilded Lotus and more aggressive combo decks opt for Basalt Monolith (Basalt + Brighthearth or Power Artifact is common). Thran Dynamo isn't exactly rare, either. The incentive here is to run Paradox Engine since you are running so much artifact ramp anyway, and then run more artifact ramp since you are running Paradox Engine anyway. At which point you might as well start adding Metalworker and Voltaic Key and so on.
It's not that Paradox Engine is broken. Paradox Engine is merely centralizing, and simply very good in any deck that contains a competitive artifact mana package. Basically anything that does not rely on ManaDudes (in which case, still good), and hate decks that aim to wipe said mana off the board regularly. Artifact combos are already the de facto win condition for like a third of the competitive EDH meta. Inclusion of even more powerful and abusable artifacts just pushes the meta more into blue as well, since that is where Copy Artifact, Fabricate, Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage are.
A resolved Paradox Engine is more than likely to end the game in a 5-20+ minute solitaire run. That being said, I doubt it really deserves a ban. If anything, the cheap artifact mana suite should get a hard looking at first.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I was playing my Thada Adel deck which utilizes a lot of artifact clone effects and mana rocks the other weekend, and got out Dox Engine with some colored and colorless mana rocks. I also had out Vedalken Archmage. I cast a few spells, had a good time, drew some cards, cast some more spells...and then I hit a pocket of Islands.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I will attest that Paradox Engine works very well with mana dorks and rocks. The thing with it however is, as stated, it centralizes everything into a more efficient manner. As you are not necessarily guaranteed a win with it, but your deck can run much smoother with it as a result.
Related story about Paradox Engine in a four-player game today.
On turn 4, the elf player drops a Paradox Engine with an active Priest of Titania and some other mana dorks, then vomits his hand onto the field. I take 20 damage, but spend my turn fetching Reclamation Sage to blow up the Engine.
The next turn, the Mishra player plays a Paradox Engine, with an active Grim Monolith and Mox Diamond. Vomits his hand onto the table and plays Wheel of Fortune, and vomits all that onto the table as well. My turn, I jump through a bunch of hoops to recur Reclamation Sage and blow up his Kuldotha Forgemaster; I have to leave the Paradox Engine alive.
The next turn, the Breya player drops a Paradox Engine with a bunch of Signets etc., then vomits his hand onto the table and does some Breya shenanigans. My turn rolls around again, and I force the Mishra player to pop Nev-Disk and take care of all this nonsense.
I tried playing Paradox engine in two different decks and both times the card strait up won me the game. All it requires is a couple mana rocks and some draw power. The first time I tried it, I was playing a wheel deck with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher the Fierce. I think I had one or two rocks out with Kydele and that was enough. I decided to pull Paradox Engine from the deck after that.
My second attempt to use Paradox was in a Samut, Voice of Dissent deck with a bunch of creatures with tap abilities. I dropped Paradox and was able to win that turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and a couple draw spells. I pulled it from the deck after that. The card is just too good and even without trying to build combo, it ends up doing exactly that.
I loved Prophet of Kruphix but it wasn't near as busted as Paradox Engine is. There were plenty of times where I didn't win with Prophet and even when I did, it typically took a full round of turns where my opponents had a chance to deal with Prophet. Paradox typically wins without instant speed removal.
In these two situations, replace PE with Umbral Mantle. Just as busted.
You could tap out to cast Prophet, then have mana available on opponents' turns to counter spells or cast more creatures. This made it so that your opponents needed to keep removal up to kill it when you tapped out. What would also happen is someone would clone it. PoK is bad for multiplayer, effectively giving you 4 turns for each of your opponents' turns.
If you tap out to cast PE, opponents will get the chance to destroy it. To win the turn you play it, you need to keep mana up, which makes the effective mana cost much higher. In this regard, it is no different than any other combo piece.
Not really. Umbral Mantle would only get me infinite colorless mana from Kydele. The thing that allowed me to keep my engine going was getting any color mana that I wanted from mana rocks in addition to insane amounts of colorless mana.
In my second example with Samut, I actually didn't draw paradox until 2nd main so had to come up with a win-con without combat. I ended up pinging everyone to death with Zhur-Taa Druid. The thing about paradox is that with a tiny bit of luck with card draw, it allows you to keep going until you can pull out a win con. I had enough card draw that I was able to finish everyone off with a pinger.
The other issue with paradox which I think others here have mentioned is that it really becomes solitaire magic which is fun for nobody.
I've had mixed results with it, as in it can feel broken at times, sometimes its just very good, and sometimes it doesn't do much of anything. You need to have your rocks and dorks out, and you need a way to continue to fuel your hand, in order for it to get to broken solitaire levels consistently. with just the rocks, its damn decent mana acceleration/extra tap abilities, but it isn't broken. Granted, this helps make it useful more often so it can slot into decks not built to abuse it into a never ending spell chain fueled by draw. This results in a deck using it for extra taps/mana acceleration, strong but not anywhere close to broken, to randomly hit a long draw/spell chain if they have some decent draw in their deck. While this won't go infinite and let them basically draw out their deck as it would if built for that, it will take a long time, and since the player won't be able to rely on the constant stream of card draw (nor will they know when the draw will end) each decision matters more and they will take longer to make it.
More so than power level, or even casual omnipresence (since its not an auto include unless you have the right deck for it), is that it leads to bad game states. Its the magic solitaire that it tends to create when it really gets going that might be a problem, though to be fair many other cards do the same thing *cough* extra turns *cough*. Actually trying to play half your deck in a turn WILL take a long time and WILL annoy the table, especially since there is usually no guarantee that your attempt will succeed or win.
Still not in favor of banning it, because I don't see it getting to Prophet levels yet, but it should be watched.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Anecdotally speaking, I've seen Paradox Engine be mostly on par with Gilded Lotus as a 5CMC mana rock, but there have been a few times where it has fueled total shenanigans.
First off was in an opposing Azami, Lady of Scrolls wizard deck which can already be ridiculous without PE, but getting to untap all your Wizards every spell you play just to tap them to draw more cards was immediately game-winning in very much the same way that Mind Over Matter is GG.
The other time was playing with my Captain Sisay deck where I added Paradox Engine to try it out. I had also added Selvala, Heart of the Wilds... with both in play, I was able to go off ramping up my mana production and fetching gas with Sisay till I got out Kozilek, then I went to town generating tons of extra mana to feed into Kamahl FTW.
In both instances, PE was an enabler that allowed me to do some ridiculous things (which is what it was designed to do), but in all honesty the issue was more with Azami and Selvala being ridiculous on their own.
I have been testing Paradox Engine recently in an Oloro control/combo list (well testing the list generally, and it includes PE). The only times I have failed to win the turn I play it have been when I have little to no draw power, or absolutely no colored mana. Even when my only colored mana was coming from the two Talismans, I still managed to go off, although I spent around 30 life to get there.
With instants/flash, even Sensei's Top can become a strong card draw source; tap SDT, respond with an instant, untap to PE trigger, tap SDT, repeat until out of spells to respond with, draw a new grip of cards plus SDT. 3+ mana from nonlands, SDT, and Rings of Brighthearth gives me infinite card draw and untaps, which leads to infinite mana if I don't have it already.
PE also turns Oloro+Pristine Talisman from a 1 card/turn value engine into a potential wincon. Especially if I also draw into Sculpting Steel and/or Voltaic Key.
Insanely ridiculous card that I'm surprised has not been banned yet.
It's better than prophet of kruphix, a card that is currently banned.
People cry that paradox engine does nothing if you don't have ways to draw cards, which is ironic because that literally also applies to prophet.
Prophet gives you a free untap on each opponent's turns. Engine gives you a free untap everytime you cast a goddamn spell. How exactly is prophet better here?
Prophet let you cast creature spells with flash. Engine lets nobody else take another turn because you just solitaire and go off, so you don't really need creature flash anyway.
The only real situation where prophet is better than engine is if you play them exactly on 5-mana (or if you have like no rocks or dorks out with engine). But you can play a lot of 0 or 1 mana spells (like gitaxian probe) to get untaps if you really need to.
Prophet never let you win the game the turn she was cast; in fact by her very nature you need your opponents to take their turns before she really generates any value. Engine can easily let you win the turn you cast it.
I'm hoping that the RC will see paradox engine in a similar light to prophet and ban engine based off of that. However you cannot comprehend the true form of Giygas' attack the RC's logic.
Paradox Engine doesn't untap lands, that's the biggest difference. You need to build around it to be abusive.
But you don't need to build around Kruphix, he can do all of that on his own. Once you play him you nearly have 4 turns per turn.
Yeah, it's easy to forget lands aren't affected. All Prophet needed to keep going is drawpower - which was never an issue in Simic. Paradox Engine also needs a sizeable amount of mana to come from mana dorks/rocks. This also means you can't cast spells that cost more than what your rocks/dorks churn out because then you're guaranteed to run out of mana, and it doesn't give you an automatic untap.
This doesn't make the Engine a bad card, au contraire. But the thing is; if it does degenerate things, it's to combo off. You don't see it doing what prophet did - turning every game into a grindfest where everyone kept having to look at the prophet player to do their stuff. And cards that enable crazy combos are usually ignored because they aren't the typical EDH deck that the banlist is tailored for.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
All you literally need are mana rocks (which virtually every nongreen deck runs, and almost every green deck too) and/or mana dorks (which virtually every green deck runs). So you basically just need cards that virtually every deck runs already.
All you literally need are mana rocks (which virtually every nongreen deck runs, and almost every green deck too) and/or mana dorks (which virtually every green deck runs). So you basically just need cards that virtually every deck runs already.
But you also need enough of them to make the engine go from being just a decent value engine (haha see what i did there?) into something that centralizes the game. If you have a dork and a rock out, well gratz, you get 2 mana refunded per spell. You'll also need to draw cards and those usually come at a higher price. Which leads to you needing more setup than that in order to fully abuse the engine. Thing about mana dorks though is that they're insanely frail, which means it's usually not as easy to attain a critical mass of non-land mana on the field while also providing yourself with the required amount of drawpower.
This is where the comparison to Prophet of Kruphix fails. Prophet doesn't need anything to already be on the field. Prophet can simply come down, immediately give you 5-10 mana relatively early game, and all you now need to do is drop creatures. As long as one of them lets you draw, you'll be good. Paradox engine requires more work.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I'm finding that Paradox Engine creates game states that I just don't want to be a part of. I've built a few different decks that are intended to take advantage of it and a few rocks, and every single time my turns end up taking a long time due to the time wasted resolving triggers and tracking floating mana. It's gotten to the point where I'd rather just end my turn rather than continue and (probably win that turn) just because no one at the table is enjoying it, even myself. It's turned into a card I would rather not run even though it will probably contribute to winning the game.
It's broken in my Azami deck. Untaps my mana rocks and all my wizards, including her. I save a bunch of mana in my mana pool with the rocks, flood a bunch of draws with her, cast a one-drop Wizard like Cursecatcher, untap all the rocks that just floated me mana, and by the end of it all… yikes. It's hilarious when Mox Opal or Diamond come in and untap with the Engine. One free cast and the chaos ensues with a building mana pool of floating mana.
My second attempt to use Paradox was in a Samut, Voice of Dissent deck with a bunch of creatures with tap abilities. I dropped Paradox and was able to win that turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and a couple draw spells. I pulled it from the deck after that. The card is just too good and even without trying to build combo, it ends up doing exactly that.
I loved Prophet of Kruphix but it wasn't near as busted as Paradox Engine is. There were plenty of times where I didn't win with Prophet and even when I did, it typically took a full round of turns where my opponents had a chance to deal with Prophet. Paradox typically wins without instant speed removal.
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
Username: Cabz
If Paradox Engine is able to ruin a game of mine it means I let someone have insane amount of ramp and access to card draw with no repercussions, which is on me as a player to be better about.
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
In these two situations, replace PE with Umbral Mantle. Just as busted.
You could tap out to cast Prophet, then have mana available on opponents' turns to counter spells or cast more creatures. This made it so that your opponents needed to keep removal up to kill it when you tapped out. What would also happen is someone would clone it. PoK is bad for multiplayer, effectively giving you 4 turns for each of your opponents' turns.
If you tap out to cast PE, opponents will get the chance to destroy it. To win the turn you play it, you need to keep mana up, which makes the effective mana cost much higher. In this regard, it is no different than any other combo piece.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
You are greatly overstating how much of a board presence one needs to take advantage of PE. Unless you are literally blowing up every mana rock and dork that your opponents play(you aren't), then it is extremely easy for someone to assemble infinite mana and/or card draw with Paradox Engine and a pretty limited board state. Hell, I've seen people go off with a single Selvala, Explorer Returned.
Username: Cabz
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith
Combined with an assortment of Signets and Talismans or the ilk. Many decks, since they are already running tons of artifact mana, choose to run Mox Opal as well - Doomsday Zur and Narset can get close to or above 20 artifacts without being artifact decks themselves. Many slower decks choose to run Gilded Lotus and more aggressive combo decks opt for Basalt Monolith (Basalt + Brighthearth or Power Artifact is common). Thran Dynamo isn't exactly rare, either. The incentive here is to run Paradox Engine since you are running so much artifact ramp anyway, and then run more artifact ramp since you are running Paradox Engine anyway. At which point you might as well start adding Metalworker and Voltaic Key and so on.
It's not that Paradox Engine is broken. Paradox Engine is merely centralizing, and simply very good in any deck that contains a competitive artifact mana package. Basically anything that does not rely on Mana Dudes (in which case, still good), and hate decks that aim to wipe said mana off the board regularly. Artifact combos are already the de facto win condition for like a third of the competitive EDH meta. Inclusion of even more powerful and abusable artifacts just pushes the meta more into blue as well, since that is where Copy Artifact, Fabricate, Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage are.
A resolved Paradox Engine is more than likely to end the game in a 5-20+ minute solitaire run. That being said, I doubt it really deserves a ban. If anything, the cheap artifact mana suite should get a hard looking at first.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I lost.
Paradox Engine isn't broken.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
On turn 4, the elf player drops a Paradox Engine with an active Priest of Titania and some other mana dorks, then vomits his hand onto the field. I take 20 damage, but spend my turn fetching Reclamation Sage to blow up the Engine.
The next turn, the Mishra player plays a Paradox Engine, with an active Grim Monolith and Mox Diamond. Vomits his hand onto the table and plays Wheel of Fortune, and vomits all that onto the table as well. My turn, I jump through a bunch of hoops to recur Reclamation Sage and blow up his Kuldotha Forgemaster; I have to leave the Paradox Engine alive.
The next turn, the Breya player drops a Paradox Engine with a bunch of Signets etc., then vomits his hand onto the table and does some Breya shenanigans. My turn rolls around again, and I force the Mishra player to pop Nev-Disk and take care of all this nonsense.
Keep fighting the good fight.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
Not really. Umbral Mantle would only get me infinite colorless mana from Kydele. The thing that allowed me to keep my engine going was getting any color mana that I wanted from mana rocks in addition to insane amounts of colorless mana.
In my second example with Samut, I actually didn't draw paradox until 2nd main so had to come up with a win-con without combat. I ended up pinging everyone to death with Zhur-Taa Druid. The thing about paradox is that with a tiny bit of luck with card draw, it allows you to keep going until you can pull out a win con. I had enough card draw that I was able to finish everyone off with a pinger.
The other issue with paradox which I think others here have mentioned is that it really becomes solitaire magic which is fun for nobody.
More so than power level, or even casual omnipresence (since its not an auto include unless you have the right deck for it), is that it leads to bad game states. Its the magic solitaire that it tends to create when it really gets going that might be a problem, though to be fair many other cards do the same thing *cough* extra turns *cough*. Actually trying to play half your deck in a turn WILL take a long time and WILL annoy the table, especially since there is usually no guarantee that your attempt will succeed or win.
Still not in favor of banning it, because I don't see it getting to Prophet levels yet, but it should be watched.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
First off was in an opposing Azami, Lady of Scrolls wizard deck which can already be ridiculous without PE, but getting to untap all your Wizards every spell you play just to tap them to draw more cards was immediately game-winning in very much the same way that Mind Over Matter is GG.
The other time was playing with my Captain Sisay deck where I added Paradox Engine to try it out. I had also added Selvala, Heart of the Wilds... with both in play, I was able to go off ramping up my mana production and fetching gas with Sisay till I got out Kozilek, then I went to town generating tons of extra mana to feed into Kamahl FTW.
In both instances, PE was an enabler that allowed me to do some ridiculous things (which is what it was designed to do), but in all honesty the issue was more with Azami and Selvala being ridiculous on their own.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
With instants/flash, even Sensei's Top can become a strong card draw source; tap SDT, respond with an instant, untap to PE trigger, tap SDT, repeat until out of spells to respond with, draw a new grip of cards plus SDT. 3+ mana from nonlands, SDT, and Rings of Brighthearth gives me infinite card draw and untaps, which leads to infinite mana if I don't have it already.
PE also turns Oloro+Pristine Talisman from a 1 card/turn value engine into a potential wincon. Especially if I also draw into Sculpting Steel and/or Voltaic Key.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
It's better than prophet of kruphix, a card that is currently banned.
People cry that paradox engine does nothing if you don't have ways to draw cards, which is ironic because that literally also applies to prophet.
Prophet gives you a free untap on each opponent's turns. Engine gives you a free untap everytime you cast a goddamn spell. How exactly is prophet better here?
Prophet let you cast creature spells with flash. Engine lets nobody else take another turn because you just solitaire and go off, so you don't really need creature flash anyway.
The only real situation where prophet is better than engine is if you play them exactly on 5-mana (or if you have like no rocks or dorks out with engine). But you can play a lot of 0 or 1 mana spells (like gitaxian probe) to get untaps if you really need to.
Prophet never let you win the game the turn she was cast; in fact by her very nature you need your opponents to take their turns before she really generates any value. Engine can easily let you win the turn you cast it.
I'm hoping that the RC will see paradox engine in a similar light to prophet and ban engine based off of that. However you cannot comprehend the true form of
Giygas' attackthe RC's logic.WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
But you don't need to build around Kruphix, he can do all of that on his own. Once you play him you nearly have 4 turns per turn.
This doesn't make the Engine a bad card, au contraire. But the thing is; if it does degenerate things, it's to combo off. You don't see it doing what prophet did - turning every game into a grindfest where everyone kept having to look at the prophet player to do their stuff. And cards that enable crazy combos are usually ignored because they aren't the typical EDH deck that the banlist is tailored for.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
All you literally need are mana rocks (which virtually every nongreen deck runs, and almost every green deck too) and/or mana dorks (which virtually every green deck runs). So you basically just need cards that virtually every deck runs already.
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
But you also need enough of them to make the engine go from being just a decent value engine (haha see what i did there?) into something that centralizes the game. If you have a dork and a rock out, well gratz, you get 2 mana refunded per spell. You'll also need to draw cards and those usually come at a higher price. Which leads to you needing more setup than that in order to fully abuse the engine. Thing about mana dorks though is that they're insanely frail, which means it's usually not as easy to attain a critical mass of non-land mana on the field while also providing yourself with the required amount of drawpower.
This is where the comparison to Prophet of Kruphix fails. Prophet doesn't need anything to already be on the field. Prophet can simply come down, immediately give you 5-10 mana relatively early game, and all you now need to do is drop creatures. As long as one of them lets you draw, you'll be good. Paradox engine requires more work.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||