Regardless of what kind of Commander you play (generally and most games believe it or not I am not playing cEDH even though I can put together a deck that would fit those criteria even though I never know exactly what they refer too) the impulse to want to play better to improve your deck generally always exists and in a game like magic what that typically means is that over time the deck becomes faster, now if that fast is Diabolic Tutor -> Demonic Tutor (for the most 1to1 example) typically depends on the person and the budget and desire to put stuff into the deck. The desire and want to do this does not nessisarily mean you want to play cEDH that is what people generally mean when people tend to fall into a binary on this format that people only exist in either the most cutthroat or the most casual.
Also maybe I am assuming to much but to me the power dynamics and the whether telling someone what you think about the format changes quite a bit when it is people who shape the format (a fact I don't think would be a secret from all involved in this game).
You also shouldn't do what you accuse me of and and assume the types of games I play and the people I play with. I play with everywhere from people opening the box to people playing thousands of dollar land sultai land decks, the games we have therefore can and have ended in 2-4 turns or gone on for hours depending on the people in the game and make up of hands and decks (yes even the more competitive games have gone that long). Part of making something that much faster also makes it that much more vulnerable to the right piece of disruption at the right time (that Stifle in the paragraph is a good example (also generally not a card I would think tends to make more casual lists especially when cards like Disallow exist if I am being honest)). We mix up players and pods and talk all the while about the game and whatever else and we also don't require anyone to play into any sort of standard as long as the decks fit in the rules of magic and commander. Now obviously typically the people who only have access to more higher powered things tend to play against each other because it makes the games more satisfying that is generally a given when you have a bunch of people in a room that want to play magic, the people who know each other better or who play on the same power levels tend to stick together.
I have a lot less problems seeing the whole thing as I said but it still rubs a bit wrong and I can't shake that but again it isn't really important to how I play Commander at all these days.
Regardless of what kind of Commander you play (generally and most games believe it or not I am not playing cEDH even though I can put together a deck that would fit those criteria even though I never know exactly what they refer too) the impulse to want to play better to improve your deck generally always exists and in a game like magic what that typically means is that over time the deck becomes faster, now if that fast is Diabolic Tutor -> Demonic Tutor (for the most 1to1 example) typically depends on the person and the budget and desire to put stuff into the deck. The desire and want to do this does not nessisarily mean you want to play cEDH that is what people generally mean when people tend to fall into a binary on this format that people only exist in either the most cutthroat or the most casual.
Also maybe I am assuming to much but to me the power dynamics and the whether telling someone what you think about the format changes quite a bit when it is people who shape the format (a fact I don't think would be a secret from all involved in this game).
You also shouldn't do what you accuse me of and and assume the types of games I play and the people I play with. I play with everywhere from people opening the box to people playing thousands of dollar land sultai land decks, the games we have therefore can and have ended in 2-4 turns or gone on for hours depending on the people in the game and make up of hands and decks (yes even the more competitive games have gone that long). Part of making something that much faster also makes it that much more vulnerable to the right piece of disruption at the right time (that Stifle in the paragraph is a good example (also generally not a card I would think tends to make more casual lists especially when cards like Disallow exist if I am being honest)). We mix up players and pods and talk all the while about the game and whatever else and we also don't require anyone to play into any sort of standard as long as the decks fit in the rules of magic and commander. Now obviously typically the people who only have access to more higher powered things tend to play against each other because it makes the games more satisfying that is generally a given when you have a bunch of people in a room that want to play magic, the people who know each other better or who play on the same power levels tend to stick together.
I have a lot less problems seeing the whole thing as I said but it still rubs a bit wrong and I can't shake that but again it isn't really important to how I play Commander at all these days.
Now that you have actually described your experience, I'm even more confused, because what you just described is what I was describing about my experience online, which you fot some reason labeled as a fantasy I was constructing.
I really dont see what you're complaining about here. I didn't read your statements until after your edit, so I've been replying to you're walked back version, not your initial, and you've been complaining about the RC for doing in their own playgroup what you just said makes playgroups work well. I can see where your coming from when you say that them being the RC carries more weight and is more likely to influence the player, but my response to that is twofold, first that it is their playgroup and they have the same right to set norms for the playgroup as any other playgroup, and secondly that they specifically told the new player that the style of deck building he was moving toward was valid and something they wanted to keep available for people to play, even of they didn't want it in their playgroup and don't think it should be tempted baseline for the format.
I think you have trouble with that whole baseline of the format thing, because it is a bit confusing. It's not a statement about how everyone should play, but a statement of what new players should expect to experience when jumping in. To better illustrate, let's compare 60 card anything goes casual and Legacy casual. 60 card anything goes is by definition a more powerful format than legacy as it includes no bans, so anything you can do in legacy you can do better in anything goes. Legacy's baseline, however, is of a much higher power level, as it is primarily a competitive format. Thus, while everyone who plays 60 card casual tries to improve their decks, they do so casually, that is they don't just turn it into an existing legacy or vintage deck without restrictions. The RC fundamentally sees Commander as a casual format, not a tournament format. As such, they are perfectly fine with cEDH existing because there are people who want that ezperience, but they don't want it to become the baseline as doing so shuts out other styles of play. Their own playgroup seems to be a higher power casual playgroup, as evidenced by infinite combo being accepted and narrow answers like stifle seeing play, but I know they do run a wide varience of power levels to test the format. As they use their playgroup to play test casual, keeping it from veering into fast combo is even more important, as that would skew their playgroup into a playstyle that doesn't cover the majority of player experiences.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I know its been a year, but lets get some new feedback going here. I think PE just creates undesirable game-states. Its not even a combo, at least that kills me and we can get on with a new game. Too often this is the person casting two dozen things, then trying to figure out a way to win while taking a 30 minute turn. Free spells are bad, a bunch of free spells are worse.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I still hate it. It has nearly ruined EDH for me by going unbanned for so long it's normalized tons of annoying behavior like taking crazy long durdly turns to resolve huge numbers of spells digging for a wincon.
There're probably 20 commanders PE enables to play a wincon of "I play lots of artifacts that tap to do stuff." It turns playing tons of artifact ramp into most of a win condition, which is not a desirable state imho. Every deck with Paradox Engine is basically Maelstrom Wanderer in that it turns over-ramping into a strategy.
It's also started to normalize stax more because why not put a winter orb in your paradox engine deck as a safety valve?
I honestly can't believe this card has gone as long as Prophet of Kruphix.
Sadly I don't have much new to say except that I hope they do something about it My only hope at this point is that Urza shines a damn light on it. I'm basically at the point with it where I'm ready to ask if you're playing a paradox engine deck before we play and make sure you know how to get to a deterministic wincon quickly
I am not sure I agree that Paradox Engine should be banned simply because I think the bar for banning is, and needs to be, high. However, it is a miserable card to play against, for sure, for the reasons stated. And, while it does require "some" setup the setup it requires can basically boil down to "include, and play, mana rocks in your deck" which isn't a very limiting deck building "restriction". If it were ever to get banned, I would not miss it in the slightest.
On a personal note: I used to play in a league around the time Paradox Engine was printed and released. It was a league that was played for points and prizes (pretty minimal prizes, but prizes nonetheless). There certain things you could to to earn points and certain things to lose points. "Infinite" combos or performing the same loop more than a set number of times would lose you points. Engine loops fell into this so anyone that performed them would lose points for the night.
There was one person who was set on using this card no matter what and would make the games terrible to play. We were set up for 1 hour games and after each hour was up, we would get into a new pod. Well, this person would end the games in 15 minutes or less with their turn(s) taking up the bulk of that time. I eventually got tired of dealing with this and one night, after a game with them, I just left and never returned to that shop. So, Paradox Engine is directly responsible for me leaving a store.
On a broader note though, the person who insisted on running it was really the reason I left. Which I think highlights a bigger point; people who want to grief or play cards like this will do so. Since leaving that store, I have never seen anyone play this card in my area. Which I think means that the social contract has been enough, in my current playgroups, to limit its use.
It is entirely possible that this isn't enough in some circles and the social contract can't do enough. Which is where I understand the desire for it to be banned entirely.
I'll fully admit, I still play PE in my Sisay deck. But I rarely bring that deck out unless I'm dead-set on revenge; partly because of PE, partly because the deck begs to be dogpiled, or else GG.
It's influenced any changes I make to my deck as well; not only must something be a good Legendary, I now wonder, "Can this go bonkers with Paradox Engine?".
So yeah...I'm a bad person for playing it in my deck(I'LL say it, if no one else will, lol), but if it goes(and I keep expecting it to with every set release), I won't shed a tear...rather, I will sigh in relief.
I am not sure I agree that Paradox Engine should be banned simply because I think the bar for banning is, and needs to be, high. However, it is a miserable card to play against, for sure, for the reasons stated. And, while it does require "some" setup the setup it requires can basically boil down to "include, and play, mana rocks in your deck" which isn't a very limiting deck building "restriction". If it were ever to get banned, I would not miss it in the slightest.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I am not sure I agree that Paradox Engine should be banned simply because I think the bar for banning is, and needs to be, high. However, it is a miserable card to play against, for sure, for the reasons stated. And, while it does require "some" setup the setup it requires can basically boil down to "include, and play, mana rocks in your deck" which isn't a very limiting deck building "restriction". If it were ever to get banned, I would not miss it in the slightest.
Sounds a lot like what got PoK banned.
That is a bit disengenious. Prophet was banned for basically being omnipresent. She was in every U/G deck, she was constantly the target of cloning, reanimating, or stealing, and the game revolved around her to an undesirable degree. I think Engine really only hits that last point and even then, only tenuously as the games with Engine aren't necessarily about the Engine; they are the length of time the opponent takes to do things with it.
I understand your experience is likely different, but from my own anecdotal experience, Engine is not nearly played as much, it is not an auto-include in most decks that can run it, and it doesn't become a target for cloning or stealing. There is still a necessary set up on the board because of the need for the rocks to stick around while Prophet works pretty much all on her own.It is not a difficult setup, but it is more than Prophet required.
Again, I would be perfectly fine with Engine eating a ban and I do feel that it contributes to some misery in EDH games, but I don't think it is fair to compare it so heavily to Prophet of Kruphix as those comparisons are not wholly accurate.
PoK was good in every deck. Do you have creatures? It's good. Do you have instants? It's good.
PE would be poor in most of my decks, and is strong in 2 of them. 2/17.
I know it can be annoying if built around, but most of my decks would benefit more from cloning a mana rock than a PE. That is why it is not as omnipresent...
I think that's a pretty strong downplay of PE's ability, even in 'fair' decks. You really don't see untaping all your rocks and creatures that attacked or used abilities as very powerful? I think the level of it's brokenness may keep its use in check, not the idea it isnt good.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Most of the times I am worried about a Engine coming down I am more worried about Scepter / Reversal coming down earlier, but I guess that is what makes me even looking at threads here weird because I mostly play on levels outside of the purview.
That being said I still think generally to go off with Engine it requires so many pieces that it feels like a win-more, and if used fairly you are getting a couple extra things out of it and the turn doesn't go on forever.
Also any complaints about durdling imo don't really belong in ban list talks because it applies across so many strategies and also is making some pretty strong assumptions about what normal levels of play speed and turn length are which is often a very slippery slope.
I think that's a pretty strong downplay of PE's ability, even in 'fair' decks. You really don't see untaping all your rocks and creatures that attacked or used abilities as very powerful? I think the level of it's brokenness may keep its use in check, not the idea it isnt good.
I would say on average, my decks will have one or two mana rocks come up in a game.
I have one green deck that has a lot of mana dorks, so maybe this one would be able to use PE... a bit... except that I would quickly run out of cards to cast. The deck is focused on untapping Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, so PE turning 60 mana into 90 mana is probably not making much of a difference.
So maybe 3 out of 17 decks?
I have a lot more cultivates than I have birds of paradise in my decks, and I think this is common enough. I would rather my ramp not be ruined by a wrath.
As for untapping my guys to use their abilities or give pseudo vigilance....
- one of my decks that uses PE is Phenax, God of Deception. Every creature in the deck can be tapped when my general is in play. PE is basically intruder alarm # 2. But my other decks... how many tap abilities do I have on creatures? My only deck with a large number of them is Maelstrom WAnderer, which plays PE because the deck has a lot of mana rocks, a lot of tap abilities, and can cast my whole deck with my general, PE, rocks making 3 coloured mana, and Crystal Shard/Tradewind Rider. None of my other decks have a lot tap effects..
- pseudo-vigilance is overrated. Obviously not a reason to play PE by itself. And chances are your Phyrexian Metamorph has something better to do than sit there give the team vigilance.
I am not saying PE is not powerful. I am just saying it takes a lot of set-up and for that reason it is not as present as PoK ever was and it never will be.
You guys are seriously overstating the amount of setup required to take advantage of PE.
All I really takes is a rocks making 2 or 3 mana, or dorks making 2-3 mana, for many decks. Even medium quality decks.
This is ridiculous. I am sorry.
Let's say I grab a random deck of mine. Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim.
My deck has 5 mana rocks. It has other ramp, but they do not interact with PE in any meaningful way.
I have two repeatable tap effects that could be good.
I'll take another random deck: Reyhan and Ishai
3 mana rocks
3 mana dorks
1 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Crystalline Crawler
My decks pack ramp, but not a lot of dorks and mana rocks that just get blown out all the time every game.
I maintain that on average, in a game, I will probably not have more than one mana rock or mana dork in play. PE will not be good.
What percentage of decks do you believe have 3+ mana rocks in play at a time?
To me, it is only decks that are ramping heavily, like Kozilek decks, or decks that are cEDH and trying to win on turn 3.
Stop saying you just need rocks making 2-3 mana. Because A), that isn't happening that often in more than half the decks I see. And B) it is not going to make for long crazy turns unless the deck is built around it.
I had a tournament winning standard deck built around PE. I know how it can durdle and make for long turns. But most EDH decks are not playing enough 1-2 CMC spells to make long turns with 2-3 mana rocks.
None of this makes any sense. It is not untapping your lands. It is not something that goes into every deck, or even half the decks. If you told me 1/4 decks could 'go off' with a PE regularly, I would be shocked, but I also would say that is not enough to ban the card. PoK was good at least 90% of the time. Unless you had no cards in hand, PoK would be good.
Yeah, if my deck doesn't have green in it it's going to have most of those (though I don't jam grim and mana vault in stuff without an untap package).
I would say that the majority of decks that I see that don't have green are running 10-12 mana rocks which means it's pretty consistent they see at least 2 in a game and sometimes more given that mulliganning is often looking for acceleration and many tutors (e.g. trinket mage, enlightened tutor) are used to find rocks early on.
I do not think I have played a game of EDH in the last year where at least one player didn't play 3+ tapping accelerants other than lands. Rocks, dudes, whatever.
Also, with PE, you really do not need that many cheap spells, you just need one or two to get you started and the rest need to draw or ramp you further. Mana dork decks basically get it for free, play a draw engine and cast most of your deck, though they have to work a little harder because their accelerants don't have haste.
Edit to say: Generally speaking there is a lot of downward pressure on curves in EDH and has been for years. More people are playing more cheaper draw spells and cantrips and tutors, because that's just the way the game goes. In my experience you really only need a couple mana to start going nuts with PE if your deck is constructed moderately well and has some thought to going off with it. It's a slight build around but it's not like you have to compromise your deck to make it good.
In just the last few years there's been kind of a low key revolution in people accepting how critical 2 mana acceleration is in EDH and that has come with a lot more talismans and signets and fellwar stones seeing play.
And to add: The same things that are good with Unwinding Clock and Seedborn Muse are good with PE, so a lot of decks basically just threw it in
From what I've seen, it's use has begun creeping up. I'm don't think it's at omnipresence levels yet, but it may be heading in that direction. The "revolution" in 2 drop rocks Pokken described is real, making PE fit in more decks. It's still often not a problem just because you run 10-15 rocks, as you need a reliable source of draw to prevent just spilling your hand into topdeck mode, but the barriers that have stood in the way of OE achieving problematic casual omnipresence are getting weaker. In addition, cards continue to be printed that make it easier to abuse, from 5 new talismans helping up the number of 2 drop rocks certain decks can run to cards like Urza, Modern Horizons has moved the needle on this card significantly. Whether that ends up being enough remains to be seen. It's still too early to tell what the impact of the set will be, so me saying that I haven't seen PE being ran much more than previously doesn't say much. Perhaps I haven't played enough games, perhaps the not enough people have gotten the cards yet, perhaps it won't be enough to drive PE into problematic omnipresence, or perhaps it will but it will take time for enough people to change their decks and then decide that PE should be added.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I actually played 5 games or so last week and didn't see it once, which was surprising. It looked like it was in a couple of the decks but never made a showing.
I think really PE is used primarily in "almost CEDH" competitive but not full on decks, though it does see quite a bit of play in cEDH from what I can tell.
So I guess I just had a good run on Paradox engine avoidance ( two weeks in a row only seeing it once), but this week I only got two games in and both were against Urzas (TWO) wielding paradox engine. I roflstomped them with MW the first game because they got into a counterspell war and I mauled them with double avengers, oboro and azusa.
The second game equipment voltron urza won with paradox engine and the table scooping to "we don't want to watch you put all your equipment on your 4 dudes and demonstrate that you have lethal through blockers on all three of us."
This card is such a damned toxic piece of garbage, and urza..ugh. I don't even know what to say. PE is the problem.
And that was enough PE for me for the next six months
Guys I played with were all super great so nothing on them at all. Just the card sucks. That is all.
If their win record was 50/50 can it really be that good, you just stated that you beat two decks playing it in a single game.
It's not about good. ( Although the second game he did full table kill on turn 5 through disruption with a very unoptimized deck).
It's about the derp. All three of the non-PE players stopped the PE guy the first game, then I killed them - second game both players had their PEs available and one miscalculated his mana and couldn't go off (would have, had he had more experience with the deck for sure, his sequencing was very new).
Both games were 100% centralized around paradox engine. The only reason the first guy didn't win game 1 was because he 1) misplayed a counterspell, 2) got randomly hymn to tourach'd and lost his pieces (who the heck expects Hymn:P).
And had any of us been the least bit stubborn we would have watched the Equipment guy play his entire deck and then hope he could actually demonstrate a win, since he'd not prepared a clearly winning line ahead of time.
It is weird but for cards like this the longer they stay unbanned the less I want them banned because of how price fluctuates irt to Commander and cards that are largely only played in this format.
Especially in the case of Engine because it was doing this same ***** since the day it was printed, I have valiantly whenever I have built it designed the deck to go very smoothly once it resolves, mostly work.
Also maybe I am assuming to much but to me the power dynamics and the whether telling someone what you think about the format changes quite a bit when it is people who shape the format (a fact I don't think would be a secret from all involved in this game).
You also shouldn't do what you accuse me of and and assume the types of games I play and the people I play with. I play with everywhere from people opening the box to people playing thousands of dollar land sultai land decks, the games we have therefore can and have ended in 2-4 turns or gone on for hours depending on the people in the game and make up of hands and decks (yes even the more competitive games have gone that long). Part of making something that much faster also makes it that much more vulnerable to the right piece of disruption at the right time (that Stifle in the paragraph is a good example (also generally not a card I would think tends to make more casual lists especially when cards like Disallow exist if I am being honest)). We mix up players and pods and talk all the while about the game and whatever else and we also don't require anyone to play into any sort of standard as long as the decks fit in the rules of magic and commander. Now obviously typically the people who only have access to more higher powered things tend to play against each other because it makes the games more satisfying that is generally a given when you have a bunch of people in a room that want to play magic, the people who know each other better or who play on the same power levels tend to stick together.
I have a lot less problems seeing the whole thing as I said but it still rubs a bit wrong and I can't shake that but again it isn't really important to how I play Commander at all these days.
Now that you have actually described your experience, I'm even more confused, because what you just described is what I was describing about my experience online, which you fot some reason labeled as a fantasy I was constructing.
I really dont see what you're complaining about here. I didn't read your statements until after your edit, so I've been replying to you're walked back version, not your initial, and you've been complaining about the RC for doing in their own playgroup what you just said makes playgroups work well. I can see where your coming from when you say that them being the RC carries more weight and is more likely to influence the player, but my response to that is twofold, first that it is their playgroup and they have the same right to set norms for the playgroup as any other playgroup, and secondly that they specifically told the new player that the style of deck building he was moving toward was valid and something they wanted to keep available for people to play, even of they didn't want it in their playgroup and don't think it should be tempted baseline for the format.
I think you have trouble with that whole baseline of the format thing, because it is a bit confusing. It's not a statement about how everyone should play, but a statement of what new players should expect to experience when jumping in. To better illustrate, let's compare 60 card anything goes casual and Legacy casual. 60 card anything goes is by definition a more powerful format than legacy as it includes no bans, so anything you can do in legacy you can do better in anything goes. Legacy's baseline, however, is of a much higher power level, as it is primarily a competitive format. Thus, while everyone who plays 60 card casual tries to improve their decks, they do so casually, that is they don't just turn it into an existing legacy or vintage deck without restrictions. The RC fundamentally sees Commander as a casual format, not a tournament format. As such, they are perfectly fine with cEDH existing because there are people who want that ezperience, but they don't want it to become the baseline as doing so shuts out other styles of play. Their own playgroup seems to be a higher power casual playgroup, as evidenced by infinite combo being accepted and narrow answers like stifle seeing play, but I know they do run a wide varience of power levels to test the format. As they use their playgroup to play test casual, keeping it from veering into fast combo is even more important, as that would skew their playgroup into a playstyle that doesn't cover the majority of player experiences.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
There're probably 20 commanders PE enables to play a wincon of "I play lots of artifacts that tap to do stuff." It turns playing tons of artifact ramp into most of a win condition, which is not a desirable state imho. Every deck with Paradox Engine is basically Maelstrom Wanderer in that it turns over-ramping into a strategy.
It's also started to normalize stax more because why not put a winter orb in your paradox engine deck as a safety valve?
I honestly can't believe this card has gone as long as Prophet of Kruphix.
Sadly I don't have much new to say except that I hope they do something about it My only hope at this point is that Urza shines a damn light on it. I'm basically at the point with it where I'm ready to ask if you're playing a paradox engine deck before we play and make sure you know how to get to a deterministic wincon quickly
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
On a personal note: I used to play in a league around the time Paradox Engine was printed and released. It was a league that was played for points and prizes (pretty minimal prizes, but prizes nonetheless). There certain things you could to to earn points and certain things to lose points. "Infinite" combos or performing the same loop more than a set number of times would lose you points. Engine loops fell into this so anyone that performed them would lose points for the night.
There was one person who was set on using this card no matter what and would make the games terrible to play. We were set up for 1 hour games and after each hour was up, we would get into a new pod. Well, this person would end the games in 15 minutes or less with their turn(s) taking up the bulk of that time. I eventually got tired of dealing with this and one night, after a game with them, I just left and never returned to that shop. So, Paradox Engine is directly responsible for me leaving a store.
On a broader note though, the person who insisted on running it was really the reason I left. Which I think highlights a bigger point; people who want to grief or play cards like this will do so. Since leaving that store, I have never seen anyone play this card in my area. Which I think means that the social contract has been enough, in my current playgroups, to limit its use.
It is entirely possible that this isn't enough in some circles and the social contract can't do enough. Which is where I understand the desire for it to be banned entirely.
It's influenced any changes I make to my deck as well; not only must something be a good Legendary, I now wonder, "Can this go bonkers with Paradox Engine?".
So yeah...I'm a bad person for playing it in my deck(I'LL say it, if no one else will, lol), but if it goes(and I keep expecting it to with every set release), I won't shed a tear...rather, I will sigh in relief.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
I understand your experience is likely different, but from my own anecdotal experience, Engine is not nearly played as much, it is not an auto-include in most decks that can run it, and it doesn't become a target for cloning or stealing. There is still a necessary set up on the board because of the need for the rocks to stick around while Prophet works pretty much all on her own.It is not a difficult setup, but it is more than Prophet required.
Again, I would be perfectly fine with Engine eating a ban and I do feel that it contributes to some misery in EDH games, but I don't think it is fair to compare it so heavily to Prophet of Kruphix as those comparisons are not wholly accurate.
PoK was good in every deck. Do you have creatures? It's good. Do you have instants? It's good.
PE would be poor in most of my decks, and is strong in 2 of them. 2/17.
I know it can be annoying if built around, but most of my decks would benefit more from cloning a mana rock than a PE. That is why it is not as omnipresent...
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
That being said I still think generally to go off with Engine it requires so many pieces that it feels like a win-more, and if used fairly you are getting a couple extra things out of it and the turn doesn't go on forever.
Also any complaints about durdling imo don't really belong in ban list talks because it applies across so many strategies and also is making some pretty strong assumptions about what normal levels of play speed and turn length are which is often a very slippery slope.
I would say on average, my decks will have one or two mana rocks come up in a game.
I have one green deck that has a lot of mana dorks, so maybe this one would be able to use PE... a bit... except that I would quickly run out of cards to cast. The deck is focused on untapping Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, so PE turning 60 mana into 90 mana is probably not making much of a difference.
So maybe 3 out of 17 decks?
I have a lot more cultivates than I have birds of paradise in my decks, and I think this is common enough. I would rather my ramp not be ruined by a wrath.
As for untapping my guys to use their abilities or give pseudo vigilance....
- one of my decks that uses PE is Phenax, God of Deception. Every creature in the deck can be tapped when my general is in play. PE is basically intruder alarm # 2. But my other decks... how many tap abilities do I have on creatures? My only deck with a large number of them is Maelstrom WAnderer, which plays PE because the deck has a lot of mana rocks, a lot of tap abilities, and can cast my whole deck with my general, PE, rocks making 3 coloured mana, and Crystal Shard/Tradewind Rider. None of my other decks have a lot tap effects..
- pseudo-vigilance is overrated. Obviously not a reason to play PE by itself. And chances are your Phyrexian Metamorph has something better to do than sit there give the team vigilance.
I am not saying PE is not powerful. I am just saying it takes a lot of set-up and for that reason it is not as present as PoK ever was and it never will be.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
All I really takes is a rocks making 2 or 3 mana, or dorks making 2-3 mana, for many decks. Even medium quality decks.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This is ridiculous. I am sorry.
Let's say I grab a random deck of mine. Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim.
My deck has 5 mana rocks. It has other ramp, but they do not interact with PE in any meaningful way.
I have two repeatable tap effects that could be good.
I'll take another random deck: Reyhan and Ishai
3 mana rocks
3 mana dorks
1 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Crystalline Crawler
My decks pack ramp, but not a lot of dorks and mana rocks that just get blown out all the time every game.
I maintain that on average, in a game, I will probably not have more than one mana rock or mana dork in play. PE will not be good.
What percentage of decks do you believe have 3+ mana rocks in play at a time?
To me, it is only decks that are ramping heavily, like Kozilek decks, or decks that are cEDH and trying to win on turn 3.
Stop saying you just need rocks making 2-3 mana. Because A), that isn't happening that often in more than half the decks I see. And B) it is not going to make for long crazy turns unless the deck is built around it.
I had a tournament winning standard deck built around PE. I know how it can durdle and make for long turns. But most EDH decks are not playing enough 1-2 CMC spells to make long turns with 2-3 mana rocks.
None of this makes any sense. It is not untapping your lands. It is not something that goes into every deck, or even half the decks. If you told me 1/4 decks could 'go off' with a PE regularly, I would be shocked, but I also would say that is not enough to ban the card. PoK was good at least 90% of the time. Unless you had no cards in hand, PoK would be good.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
mana crypt
sol ring
mana vault
mox diamond
all on color signets
fellwar stone
grim monolith
coalition relic
thran dynamo
gilded lotus
Not all of these make the final cut, and there is often many more
But we have very different deck baselines.
I would say that the majority of decks that I see that don't have green are running 10-12 mana rocks which means it's pretty consistent they see at least 2 in a game and sometimes more given that mulliganning is often looking for acceleration and many tutors (e.g. trinket mage, enlightened tutor) are used to find rocks early on.
I do not think I have played a game of EDH in the last year where at least one player didn't play 3+ tapping accelerants other than lands. Rocks, dudes, whatever.
Also, with PE, you really do not need that many cheap spells, you just need one or two to get you started and the rest need to draw or ramp you further. Mana dork decks basically get it for free, play a draw engine and cast most of your deck, though they have to work a little harder because their accelerants don't have haste.
Edit to say: Generally speaking there is a lot of downward pressure on curves in EDH and has been for years. More people are playing more cheaper draw spells and cantrips and tutors, because that's just the way the game goes. In my experience you really only need a couple mana to start going nuts with PE if your deck is constructed moderately well and has some thought to going off with it. It's a slight build around but it's not like you have to compromise your deck to make it good.
In just the last few years there's been kind of a low key revolution in people accepting how critical 2 mana acceleration is in EDH and that has come with a lot more talismans and signets and fellwar stones seeing play.
And to add: The same things that are good with Unwinding Clock and Seedborn Muse are good with PE, so a lot of decks basically just threw it in
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
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So you're saying a card used primarily in cEDH does nothing at your average EDH table? I'm shocked.
I think really PE is used primarily in "almost CEDH" competitive but not full on decks, though it does see quite a bit of play in cEDH from what I can tell.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The second game equipment voltron urza won with paradox engine and the table scooping to "we don't want to watch you put all your equipment on your 4 dudes and demonstrate that you have lethal through blockers on all three of us."
This card is such a damned toxic piece of garbage, and urza..ugh. I don't even know what to say. PE is the problem.
And that was enough PE for me for the next six months
Guys I played with were all super great so nothing on them at all. Just the card sucks. That is all.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
It's not about good. ( Although the second game he did full table kill on turn 5 through disruption with a very unoptimized deck).
It's about the derp. All three of the non-PE players stopped the PE guy the first game, then I killed them - second game both players had their PEs available and one miscalculated his mana and couldn't go off (would have, had he had more experience with the deck for sure, his sequencing was very new).
Both games were 100% centralized around paradox engine. The only reason the first guy didn't win game 1 was because he 1) misplayed a counterspell, 2) got randomly hymn to tourach'd and lost his pieces (who the heck expects Hymn:P).
And had any of us been the least bit stubborn we would have watched the Equipment guy play his entire deck and then hope he could actually demonstrate a win, since he'd not prepared a clearly winning line ahead of time.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Especially in the case of Engine because it was doing this same ***** since the day it was printed, I have valiantly whenever I have built it designed the deck to go very smoothly once it resolves, mostly work.